::Snowboarding with AlienBees::

[raceMpower95]

I decided to take the strobes up to the mountain this weekend to see how they would hold up in the cold weather and snow. I am pleased to report that they worked without a hitch, and I was very impressed with the endurance of the power pack. I shot at full power on both heads for the better part of 4 hours in temperatures that never got above 20 degrees Fahrenheit and it didn't even use up 25% of the charge.

Anyway, here are some of the results...

Before it got dark, air over the flat-down rail:


Nightfall, tailpress on the flat bar. This was just as I was getting the settings dialed in for the lights:


Set up the lights on the small jump for a bit:


Back to the flat bar. Frontside tailpress:


Backside noseslide on the flat bar:


Moved the lights over to the bigger kicker:


Equipment used:
Canon EOS 40D w/BG-E2 grip
Canon EF 70-200mm f/4L
Alien Bee AB800 Flash Head
Alien Bee AB400 Flash Head
Alien Bee Vagabond II Power Pack
Alien Bee Cybersync Radio Triggers

Overall I was pleased with the results, but as I suspected, the Alien Bee's durations aren't quite fast enough for this type of subject. (Hence, the motion blur in some shots.) I guess in the end it comes down to making due with what you have. I was very impressed with how well they stood up to the cold though, and I look forward to taking them back up to the park or out to a street spot for a better shoot.

[97TurboDSM]

they look great to me. well done sir.

[!Funny]

pretty dope dave!

i want to get out and take some snowboarding pictures before the seasons over.

did you have to pay for a lift ticket? or you just walk on the mountain for free?

[raceMpower95]

Originally Posted by !Funny

pretty dope dave!

i want to get out and take some snowboarding pictures before the seasons over.

did you have to pay for a lift ticket? or you just walk on the mountain for free?

I have a season pass and a house right near Elk.

Who is this btw?

EDIT: Hi Kyle.

[TROLL]

What do you mean when you say they're not fast enough? You should definitley be able to freeze action with any strobe I'd think. The drag in the photos might be from a slow shutter continuing to expose the ambient light after the flash has fired... like an unintentional slow speed flash sync? Just bump that shutter speed up and you should be good to go, but not sure how fast the max sync speed is with those.

Shots look good though... shooting action at night isnt easy.

[Chris_PA]

Originally Posted by TROLL

What do you mean when you say they're not fast enough? You should definitley be able to freeze action with any strobe I'd think. The drag in the photos might be from a slow shutter continuing to expose the ambient light after the flash has fired... like an unintentional slow speed flash sync? Just bump that shutter speed up and you should be good to go, but not sure how fast the max sync speed is with those.

Shots look good though... shooting action at night isnt easy.

Yea man your flash duration is plentttty fast enough to freeze action

Unlike most strobes the AB's duration actually gets faster as the power is turned up
I think the duration on the 800 is like 1/1000 or something and the 400 is 1/2000

Shutter drag is your "problem" if you want call it that


For example, on this shot:


Your exposure is 1/60 @ f/8 ISO1600

I would've gone for something like 1/250 @ f/4 ISO1600 and just knock the strobes output down 2 stops
Would've helped bring out the background detail and freeze the background as well


I dig the shots overall and am dying to do something like this before spring


Also, were you just using the parabolic's or did you have some other kind of light modifier?

[raceMpower95]

Originally Posted by Chris_PA

Yea man your flash duration is plentttty fast enough to freeze action

Unlike most strobes the AB's duration actually gets faster as the power is turned up
I think the duration on the 800 is like 1/1000 or something and the 400 is 1/2000

Shutter drag is your "problem" if you want call it that


For example, on this shot:

Your exposure is 1/60 @ f/8 ISO1600

I would've gone for something like 1/250 @ f/4 ISO1600 and just knock the strobes output down 2 stops
Would've helped bring out the background detail and freeze the background as well


I dig the shots overall and am dying to do something like this before spring


Also, were you just using the parabolic's or did you have some other kind of light modifier?

I was purposely dragging the shutter a bit to expose a little bit of the BG. Like you said, the AB's are fastest at full power. This means that if I stop down to 1/4 power, or 2 stops, then I'm down to about 1/800th on the duration. That still leaves motion blur. Trust me when I say the duration is not fast enough to freeze a lot of action. I use these strobes for all kinds of shoots, and even people jumping in the air in the studio ends up causing motion blur. You really need a duration of about 1/2500th to sharply and crisply freeze a snowboarder. That is why just about every pro snow photog uses the Elinchrom Rangers. They are made for shooting action sports.

As for light modifiers, I was just using the "stock" 7" reflectors. I'd like to pick up the 11" sports reflectors some time in the future though. They bump the guide number up and focus the light better.

Originally Posted by TROLL

What do you mean when you say they're not fast enough? You should definitley be able to freeze action with any strobe I'd think. The drag in the photos might be from a slow shutter continuing to expose the ambient light after the flash has fired... like an unintentional slow speed flash sync? Just bump that shutter speed up and you should be good to go, but not sure how fast the max sync speed is with those.

Shots look good though... shooting action at night isnt easy.

Well you are half right. The ability to freeze action depends solely on the duration of the flash. For example, the duration of the Alien Bee AB800 flash at full power is right around 1/1250th IIRC. That is the total amount of time that the light is "on" when it flashes. So for all intents and purposes, unless you're using the light as just a fill, then your shutter speed is basically 1/1250th since that's how long the light is exposing the subject for. This means that at a shutter speed of 1/10th your subject is exposed just the same as if you speed the shutter up to max sync speed of 1/250th.

What it comes down to is that you set the flash to full power, and then control the exposure of the subject using only the aperture. Then you adjust how much ambient light you let in to expose the BG by slowing the shutter.

The reason I say the Alien Bee's are slow is that their fastest duration is only 1/1500th of a second, versus a Speedlite or an Elinchrom Ranger that fires at about 1/8000th of a second. The issue is that Speedlites die very quickly in the cold, and Rangers cost about $2500 per light.

Does that clear up what I'm talking about?

[TROLL]

I agree with you on almost everything you're saying, except one thing which is where I think the issue is...
"The ability to freeze action depends solely on the duration of the flash"
"This means that at a shutter speed of 1/10th your subject is exposed just the same as if you speed the shutter up to max sync speed of 1/250th."

These would be true, if there was 0 ambient light available... but there is. Its not much compared to the light your strobes are providing, but its still something.

Its the reason the background shows up (with a tungsten hue), and its also the reason you're getting the drag in your photos. It might be underexposed 5 stops, but its there enough to show up.

There is a sliding scale between the balance of ambient and strobe... they can be very close or very far away and it will change how the resulting photo appears as a result.

Like Chris said, the way to avoid this is to bump up to that 1/250th max sync speed to eliminate the remainder of the ambient light exposure.
Or another method would be to cut out more light via aperture or ISO so that ambient light is more like 20 stops underexposed and wont be as noticeable.
Or the other option would be to intentionally work the slow speed sync into the photo... this is often done for creativity or to allow the background to expose more fully to create more depth to the photo. The difference between a very dark background vs. an exposed background when using flash.

A couple examples I found on GIS...

Here's a slow speed synch similar to yours, the photographer probably did this because he needed the ambient light exposure so that the sky and background would show up, otherwise only what the flash hit would show up in the photo with a black background http://static.travelmuse.com/docs/ar...arder-full.jpg

Here's a slower shot which allowed the ambient to expose much more, just about on par with the flash exposure... just to give it a more abstract look http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...8429R8UR.1.jpg

[DPancoast]

nice shots. i need some new shots of me snowboarding... maybe a tst snowboard shoot day?

[TROLL]

yeah how about friday at jack frost when tickets are only $9! haha... i'll be there...

[R_Rambo]

same and you can get some pics of a skier that can hold his own in the park (me lol)

oh and nice pics diggin it alot

[raceMpower95]

Originally Posted by TROLL

I agree with you on almost everything you're saying, except one thing which is where I think the issue is...
"The ability to freeze action depends solely on the duration of the flash"
"This means that at a shutter speed of 1/10th your subject is exposed just the same as if you speed the shutter up to max sync speed of 1/250th."

These would be true, if there was 0 ambient light available... but there is. Its not much compared to the light your strobes are providing, but its still something.

Its the reason the background shows up (with a tungsten hue), and its also the reason you're getting the drag in your photos. It might be underexposed 5 stops, but its there enough to show up.

There is a sliding scale between the balance of ambient and strobe... they can be very close or very far away and it will change how the resulting photo appears as a result.

Like Chris said, the way to avoid this is to bump up to that 1/250th max sync speed to eliminate the remainder of the ambient light exposure.
Or another method would be to cut out more light via aperture or ISO so that ambient light is more like 20 stops underexposed and wont be as noticeable.
Or the other option would be to intentionally work the slow speed sync into the photo... this is often done for creativity or to allow the background to expose more fully to create more depth to the photo. The difference between a very dark background vs. an exposed background when using flash.

A couple examples I found on GIS...

Here's a slow speed synch similar to yours, the photographer probably did this because he needed the ambient light exposure so that the sky and background would show up, otherwise only what the flash hit would show up in the photo with a black background http://static.travelmuse.com/docs/ar...arder-full.jpg

Here's a slower shot which allowed the ambient to expose much more, just about on par with the flash exposure... just to give it a more abstract look http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...8429R8UR.1.jpg

I hear all of that. What I am saying is that optimally you want your BG 2 stops under your flash metering. At two stops under, a small amount of ambient rider trail will not be noticeable.

Here is what I mean. BG is 2+ stops under and rider is perfectly frozen using nothing but the duration of the flash:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3009/...ea8a2c2560.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3242/...094d223e4e.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3030/...0f212daa6b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3252/...08388b1c01.jpg
(All of the above photos were taken by Tommy Larsen.)

The only reason he doesn't have any motion trailing is because he is using Speedlites or his Rangers. They both have durations that are extremely fast. Granted, he might be shooting at around 1/125, but that alone will not freeze the action. My point was not to start a debate, I understand completely what you mean. You are right, the Alien Bees do work, but they have to be at full power, which limits your flexibility with exposure. I couldn't open up the lens and power down the lights because they would have been to slow at that point. That's what I was saying.

Originally Posted by DPancoast

nice shots. i need some new shots of me snowboarding... maybe a tst snowboard shoot day?

Originally Posted by TROLL

yeah how about friday at jack frost when tickets are only $9! haha... i'll be there...

I'm down for a shoot if this happens. Let me know.

[TROLL]

I'm not trying to intrude on your thread so if you're prefer to not have my responses just let me know and I'll cut out... I just think its interesting and informative to hopefully both of us and others who will read.
I applaud you for getting out and shooting... I sure as hell havent been lately .

Now, if you prefer your bg to be -2 EV then ok... there's no rules with art though . And with that said, I dont think the examples you posted show the bg at -2 EV for the most part either.
It also doesnt seem like in the first 2 samples above that the subject is dependant on the strobe to light them, its more of a +1 to create a highlight and make them pop a little more. The 3rd at night is definitely a +2 though and needs the light, and the 4th doesnt look lit to me, but who knows.

I dont think its just about a -2 here though, its about the amount of ambient light you have to work with, and in the above photos, 3 out of 4 are daytime shots. Getting a proper exposure with daylight is simple. Getting it at night without much ambient is more of a challenge of course.

So say you shot the above photos at 1/60 @ f8 and 1600 iso. You could start heading in the right direction (IMO) by shooting instead at 1/250 @ f4 and 1600 iso? You could reduce your flash power down by 2 stops in the process as well. This would give the same background exposure, but stop the action, and the only real difference is a more shallow DOF.

At the same time I dont feel like the slopes in the background add much to the photos in these shots, I prefer the shot of the rider in the air with a black background.

And one other thing I could add would be if you do want to try and bring out the background in your shots like above, try to used colored gels on your strobes to match the color temp of the ambient... like using a tungsten flash gel on the strobes and setting your camera to tungsten white balance should bring it all in line.

And again if I'm helping then great, if I'm not and you dont want me all up in your thread let me know and I'll skidaddle...

[PAFirefighter11]

Hey man, how do you like the Vagabond II? I'm highly considering one!

[vwcorradokid]

Originally Posted by HibachiZ28

Hey man, how do you like the Vagabond II? I'm highly considering one!

The Vagabond II is absolutely AMAZING. I bought mine and it was worth every penny. I highly recommend it.


As for max sync speed issues, there is a new product out to fix that. I shoot a lot of hockey and have used my B800's to illuminate the rink (thankfully the roof is white). The max sync speed on my camera is 1/250th using my PW's. Check out Radio Poppers. I haven't used them, but plan on getting them once I save up some for them. They allow for flash sync speeds up to 1/8000th. http://www.radiopoppers.com

[vwcorradokid]

Originally Posted by raceMpower95

I hear all of that. What I am saying is that optimally you want your BG 2 stops under your flash metering. At two stops under, a small amount of ambient rider trail will not be noticeable.

Here is what I mean. BG is 2+ stops under and rider is perfectly frozen using nothing but the duration of the flash:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3009/...ea8a2c2560.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3242/...094d223e4e.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3030/...0f212daa6b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3252/...08388b1c01.jpg
(All of the above photos were taken by Tommy Larsen.)

The only reason he doesn't have any motion trailing is because he is using Speedlites or his Rangers. They both have durations that are extremely fast. Granted, he might be shooting at around 1/125, but that alone will not freeze the action. My point was not to start a debate, I understand completely what you mean. You are right, the Alien Bees do work, but they have to be at full power, which limits your flexibility with exposure. I couldn't open up the lens and power down the lights because they would have been to slow at that point. That's what I was saying.



I'm down for a shoot if this happens. Let me know.

If you go, let me know I'd Like to go too. I can bring my B800's.

[raceMpower95]

Originally Posted by TROLL

So say you shot the above photos at 1/60 @ f8 and 1600 iso. You could start heading in the right direction (IMO) by shooting instead at 1/250 @ f4 and 1600 iso? You could reduce your flash power down by 2 stops in the process as well. This would give the same background exposure, but stop the action, and the only real difference is a more shallow DOF.

At the same time I dont feel like the slopes in the background add much to the photos in these shots, I prefer the shot of the rider in the air with a black background.

And one other thing I could add would be if you do want to try and bring out the background in your shots like above, try to used colored gels on your strobes to match the color temp of the ambient... like using a tungsten flash gel on the strobes and setting your camera to tungsten white balance should bring it all in line.

And again if I'm helping then great, if I'm not and you dont want me all up in your thread let me know and I'll skidaddle...

Skidaddle you big jerk!



JK. I can talk about this stuff all day long. My only point was that I can't shoot at 1/250th at f/4 like you suggested. The Alien Bee's duration gets even slower as you power them down. If I dropped the flash down 2 stops (down to 1/4 power), my duration would be, IIRC, below 1/500th. That sounds fast, but when you're trying to capture a snowboarder from 15' away going 30-40mph, it's not fast enough. Go outside and set your camera up on a tripod. Then have someone drive by at 40 and snap a shot. You'll find you need to be shooting at 1/1500th or above to get it tack sharp without any motion blur.

Originally Posted by HibachiZ28

Hey man, how do you like the Vagabond II? I'm highly considering one!

Like vwcorradokid said, they are worth every penny. I am actually going to pick up another one soon so I can power both lights individually.

Originally Posted by vwcorradokid

As for max sync speed issues, there is a new product out to fix that. I shoot a lot of hockey and have used my B800's to illuminate the rink (thankfully the roof is white). The max sync speed on my camera is 1/250th using my PW's. Check out Radio Poppers. I haven't used them, but plan on getting them once I save up some for them. They allow for flash sync speeds up to 1/8000th. http://www.radiopoppers.com

The radio poppers advertisement of 1/8000th is more or less irrelevant. It is not the slaves that limit your sync speed, it is the shutter on your camera. Focal plane shutters, which are what every DSLR has, are limited to 1/250th or below. Any faster than that, and the camera can't record the timing of the flash. Leaf shutters, on the other hand, like those found in medium and large format cameras, can sync up to almost any speed. Therefore, the high sync speed offered by the Radio Poppers only becomes useful if you are shooting with a camera that has a leaf shutter.

Originally Posted by vwcorradokid

If you go, let me know I'd Like to go too. I can bring my B800's.

Sounds good. I'll let you know.

[Kiet]

Nice shots man, I can't wait to get a strobe setup myself. Did you happen to go up to the mountains with Steve?

[raceMpower95]

Originally Posted by Kiet

Nice shots man, I can't wait to get a strobe setup myself. Did you happen to go up to the mountains with Steve?

Steve as in BSaint? No. I did ride with him once last year I think though.