flash site?

[Gorilla Unit 33]

ok well i have very little knowledge in flash, and especially web hosting sites and what not. Im in need of a site to show off my personal work as i get ready for graduation. I was wondering if anyone would be willing to work with me on building it. I would of course be doing all the designing and layout of the site, i would just need someone to slice it all up make it navigate correctly and host it. Also if it could be easily editable when need be that would be great.

[Scapegoat]

Originally Posted by Gorilla Unit 33

ok well i have very little knowledge in flash, and especially web hosting sites and what not. Im in need of a site to show off my personal work as i get ready for graduation. I was wondering if anyone would be willing to work with me on building it. I would of course be doing all the designing and layout of the site, i would just need someone to slice it all up make it navigate correctly and host it. Also if it could be easily editable when need be that would be great.

it doesn't sound like you what you need is flash then

[grimm]

Flash can be easily editable. Especially if you just want to be able to update the gallery images, thats as simple as editing a XML text document and re-uploading.

Let me know what you have in mind. I'm sure we can work something out.

[Scapegoat]

I don't do any flash development... I leave that to the designers ;)

but you are right, using xml files does make it easier to update. But at the same time, google and yahoo spiders can't read those files.

I do all my programming in html/css/javascript/java/php. While I'm not uber awesome programmer, I get by just fine ;)

[grimm]

yea flash is invisible to the web spiders crawlers, and bots oh my. But some people don't care. and I must say it can be very sexy.

[Gorilla Unit 33]

yeah, since my portfolio review was yesterday im going to be spending the next two weeks coming up with ideas for the site and design layout. In the mean time keep tight!

[Scapegoat]

Originally Posted by grimm

yea flash is invisible to the web spiders crawlers, and bots oh my. But some people don't care. and I must say it can be very sexy.

I dunno about sexy... I'm just not impressed anymore when I see a really cool website and its done in flash... its actually a let down for me

[Vypurr]

Flash has a large following in the photography / art portfolio world. It usually doesn't matter if your site is indexed by bots because your target audience often receives the portfolio on a cd or flash drive. I have seen some very well done ones, and I would recommend that people who want an unconventional or creative layout use Flash...But most lack the skills.

[Scapegoat]

Originally Posted by Vypurr

Flash has a large following in the photography / art portfolio world. It usually doesn't matter if your site is indexed by bots because your target audience often receives the portfolio on a cd or flash drive. I have seen some very well done ones, and I would recommend that people who want an unconventional or creative layout use Flash...But most lack the skills.

you can get an unconventional or creative layout without flash... its done all the time. Using flash to display your photos is great, I have no issue with any of that. But if you're looking to make money from your website, it is better to have bits of flash to accentuate things, instead of running the entire shebang.

Flash based galleries are awesome, I love flash for that purpose... you can't index images anyway, so no biggy using flash to show them off.

Now, if you rely solely on word of mouth advertising, literal w.o.m. or posting on forums, etc, then flash is fine. But if you're starting up a website with the intent on pulling in random traffic from search results amongst other forms of advertising, it just doesn't make sense.

[Vypurr]

Agreed

[grimm]

Originally Posted by Scapegoat

Now, if you rely solely on word of mouth advertising, literal w.o.m. or posting on forums, etc, then flash is fine. But if you're starting up a website with the intent on pulling in random traffic from search results amongst other forms of advertising, it just doesn't make sense.

I agree and disagree.
there are a lot of professional graphics and media creation sites that are solely flash based. Now maybe those places have enough recognition that they don't need to be "found" but regardless they made the decision to use flash. And I'm sure they thought about it long and hard.

Regardless of that, you can always add some meta data to the HTML page that the flash movie resides in.

An example.
Trollback

[Scapegoat]

Originally Posted by grimm

I agree and disagree.
there are a lot of professional graphics and media creation sites that are solely flash based. Now maybe those places have enough recognition that they don't need to be "found" but regardless they made the decision to use flash. And I'm sure they thought about it long and hard.

Regardless of that, you can always add some meta data to the HTML page that the flash movie resides in.

An example.
Trollback

meta data does not have near the importance as content on a site.

content and links to your site are among the most important aspects of where your page is going to preside on search results.

using meta data is like stapling two pieces of wood board together AFTER you've put wood glue between the boards and nailed them together. Its really just for good measure

[grimm]

You seem to be missing my point. Search results are not the end all be all for some peoples and companies website.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, there is a proper tool for every job, you aren't going to use a sledge hammer to do finishing work and you aren't going to use a tack hammer to knock down a wall.

And I'm sorry but I also disagree about meta data just being there for good measure.

[Scapegoat]

Originally Posted by grimm

You seem to be missing my point. Search results are not the end all be all for some peoples and companies website.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, there is a proper tool for every job, you aren't going to use a sledge hammer to do finishing work and you aren't going to use a tack hammer to knock down a wall.

And I'm sorry but I also disagree about meta data just being there for good measure.

you appear to be missing my point. flash is fine for people that don't care so much about search results, or are willing to pay to have their site placed via google ad sense and the like.

meta data used to be first and foremost in getting good search results, it is not anymore. Mainly because you can put anything and everything in there as far as keywords. And it keeps all the porn sites from showing up high on search results, unless you are looking for them.

Content is now number 1... you're not gonna screw with your website content in order to show up on random search result pages. And hiding text on your pages actually lowers your search results. (ie: same color font as background)

Meta data helps, don't get me wrong. But by having a fully flash built site with those as your only way of getting noticed by the spiders (w/o spending money $$$$$ ), to use your analogy, is like using a tack hammer to knock down a wall.

content, links, h tags, links to your website, having a sitemaps, alt values, p tags... they are all way more important than meta data.

Search engines, good ones (google, yahoo, etc) are all more interested in presenting THEIR users with the most useful results. that is why they are the top dogs when it comes to search engines.

meta data lies, therefore it is not relied on heavily... I could build a site around cars and put stuff about puppies in my meta data... but I sure as hell am not going to be talking about puppies on my website, nor am I going to link to websites about puppies, nor am I going to get my website listed on other websites that are about puppies.

[Scapegoat]

http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=2167931

Originally Posted by searchenginewatch.com

Meta tags have never been a guaranteed way to gain a top ranking on crawler-based search engines.

For example, Google ignores the meta description tag and instead will automatically generate its own description for this page.

The meta keywords tag allows you to provide additional text for crawler-based search engines to index along with your body copy. How does this help you? Well, for most major crawlers, it doesn't. That's because most crawlers now ignore the tag.

[sisforsurfing]

I think the point is that apart from having the person/firms name typed in google, indexing isn't a big deal. Flash is a great way to make highly effective interactive designs. Many big-name NYC design firms have their sites done solely in Flash because of what can be done with it. For artists and designers, I think it's one of the best ways to make a site that is both eye-catching and functional. And for the OP, as grimm said, updating with new work is as simple and adding to the XML and uploading.

For bigger companies that want to be easily searched for it might not be the best option, even though there are ways to get indexed with Flash. There are also languages like Flex and some cool JavaScript that can make for interesting interactive sites, but sometimes it's not worth it when so much can be easily done with Flash. Just my .02

[Scapegoat]

Originally Posted by sisforsurfing

I think the point is that apart from having the person/firms name typed in google, indexing isn't a big deal. Flash is a great way to make highly effective interactive designs. Many big-name NYC design firms have their sites done solely in Flash because of what can be done with it. For artists and designers, I think it's one of the best ways to make a site that is both eye-catching and functional. And for the OP, as grimm said, updating with new work is as simple and adding to the XML and uploading.

For bigger companies that want to be easily searched for it might not be the best option, even though there are ways to get indexed with Flash. There are also languages like Flex and some cool JavaScript that can make for interesting interactive sites, but sometimes it's not worth it when so much can be easily done with Flash. Just my .02

you're right, flash is easy to use, but hard to index. conventional website are harder to make interactive but easier to index for search engines.

As far as me being a professional web developer, I will always choose, and recommend having a site that is as SEO as possible. Further, i really don't want to deal with clients asking me why their site isn't showing up on google when its done in all flash...

[grimm]

I get your point, your point is only focused on SEO and page ranking.
My point is, Not everyone cares about that. Sorry you don't agree.
As a designer/developer i simply tell my clients that flash has limitations on SEO. And leave the decision up to them.
Again i repeat there is a tool for every job. if page ranking is all you want then flash is the wrong tool. But if interactiveity and animations is what you want, HTML and CSS is the wrong tool. It's very simple.

[Scapegoat]

Originally Posted by grimm

I get your point, your point is only focused on SEO and page ranking.
My point is, Not everyone cares about that. Sorry you don't agree.
As a designer/developer i simply tell my clients that flash has limitations on SEO. And leave the decision up to them.
Again i repeat there is a tool for every job. if page ranking is all you want then flash is the wrong tool. But if interactiveity and animations is what you want, HTML and CSS is the wrong tool. It's very simple.

html/css is always the right tool (flash or not, i know i'm nitpicking words though lol). java/php and javascript are a great way to add interactivity and animations, and are all quite easy to use once you start getting into them.

The sky really is the limit. Flash can never, at this point, replace the interactivity that can be offered through java/php and javascript/css.

My point is, if you want an effective, web standards compliant, website accessible by as many users as possible, and found by as many users as possible... you don't design the entire site in flash. Flash was never meant for that anyway.

Its not the clients job to care... they're not industry professionals, they don't know how google works, they don't understand SEO. Its the developers job to care.

As far as displaying an art portfolio, gallery, etc. its awesome... but the sections about the artist and contact information and navigation should be outside of that. It is so easy to integrate proper web development methods, including the use of flash, together.

If you're good with flash, I'm sure I'll be in touch for some work at some point

[sisforsurfing]

You're really stuck on developing for a certain clientele, and for that base, you're right. Even for most customers you're right.

It's my opinion that if the OP wants to use Flash, his site could come out looking great and be very flexible. He can even make a mirror site in PHP if he's really worried about indexing (and users without Flash if they exist anymore.) Or he can ditch Flash like you suggest and it could also come out looking nice.

Just look at lots of the wonderful sites by interactive design firms like Big Spaceship for why I love Flash.


Of course after saying that I've recently thought my design portfolio will probably be done in html/css/javascript, but that's besides the point.