School me on Meth Injection

[CleanNeon98]

I find this fairly impressive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THcps...os=_vMOVRMhJxY

The only things he has that I don't? The Meth Kit, Injectors, and more boost. He's still running the factory Mazda ECU (no tune in other words) and his car seems to boogie quite well which got me thinking.

1. How practical is Meth on a daily driven car?
2. How does a Meth kit work? Is it on all the time or only certain times?
3. What's a progressive meth kit, perhaps in relation to question 2.
4. How difficult is it to install, run, and find meth?

I've done no research on this before so I'm basically walking into a new door, anyone care to hold it and help me through? It's an inexpensive and effective power booster as the vid shows so naturally I'm interested.

[BakaN20]

http://www.snowperformance.net/faqs_...?type=gasoline

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/faq.php?cID=1

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=937176

http://www.aemelectronics.com/water-...ne-engines-51/


1. How practical is Meth on a daily driven car?
-It should be fine, especially if you have map switching, you can have a meth tune and a regular tune, or just be tuned for meth all the time. Meth can be activated in various ways.

2. How does a Meth kit work? Is it on all the time or only certain times?
-Meth injects a water/meth mixture into the intake charge. It is not an all the time unit unless it is specific to be be on all the time, maybe like snow performances kits that maximize mpg. It is very dependent on your controller used.
3. What's a progressive meth kit, perhaps in relation to question 2.
-A progressive meth kit, is just like a progressive nitrous kit, it can ramp itself up if it is paired with a solenoid.
4. How difficult is it to install, run, and find meth?
-Easy. Run some wires, tap the intake, mount the tank and pump. Get it tuned.


These answers are from my own personal research, so for the experts, forgive me if I have posted wrong information. Meth is basically race gas at the price of windshield washer fluid. Do more research, the 4 questions you asked does not even cover the tip of the ice berg that is meth injection. Don't expect to get power from meth alone, the tune is the most important aspect of meth injection.

[Got Insulin?]

http://www.tristatetuners.com/forum/...ad.php?t=14745

Try searching next time, homeslice.

[BakaN20]

Originally Posted by Got Insulin?

http://www.tristatetuners.com/forum/...ad.php?t=14745

Try searching next time, homeslice.

Great thread! Thanks.

[CleanNeon98]

Originally Posted by BakaN20

http://www.snowperformance.net/faqs_...?type=gasoline

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/faq.php?cID=1

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=937176

http://www.aemelectronics.com/water-...ne-engines-51/


1. How practical is Meth on a daily driven car?
-It should be fine, especially if you have map switching, you can have a meth tune and a regular tune, or just be tuned for meth all the time. Meth can be activated in various ways.

2. How does a Meth kit work? Is it on all the time or only certain times?
-Meth injects a water/meth mixture into the intake charge. It is not an all the time unit unless it is specific to be be on all the time, maybe like snow performances kits that maximize mpg. It is very dependent on your controller used.
3. What's a progressive meth kit, perhaps in relation to question 2.
-A progressive meth kit, is just like a progressive nitrous kit, it can ramp itself up if it is paired with a solenoid.
4. How difficult is it to install, run, and find meth?
-Easy. Run some wires, tap the intake, mount the tank and pump. Get it tuned.


These answers are from my own personal research, so for the experts, forgive me if I have posted wrong information. Meth is basically race gas at the price of windshield washer fluid. Do more research, the 4 questions you asked does not even cover the tip of the ice berg that is meth injection. Don't expect to get power from meth alone, the tune is the most important aspect of meth injection.

Thanks for the links. Unfortunately any tuning is out of the question with my car so it would have to just get strapped in and set up properly. Nothing I can do about the ECU.

[DPancoast]

you dont need to use meth. theres people that use 50/50 water/windshield washer fluid (art/lagos) and do just fine.

[kenikh]

Works great. It works by intercooling the intake charge through evaporative energy transfer and through detonation quenching. Water is great a lowering propensity for knock and meth increases net octane, as pure meth is ~220 octane euivalent. 50/50 and below and you don't need a tune. Above and you start messing w/ AFRs and a tune is a good idea.

[blackvr4]

Originally Posted by DPancoast

you dont need to use meth. theres people that use 50/50 water/windshield washer fluid (art/lagos) and do just fine.

Totally not true, I have used everything. I used the windshield washer fluids that I read online contain the highest amount of methanol, and I mean they did work but I could only run ~23psi maximum. Then I tried mixing me own mixtures I tried 50/50, 60/40, 70/30 got varrying results.

The best mixture was straight methanol non lube from VP. At 100% meth I was able to run 27psi like it was nothing. I could have ran more boost but was scared to damage the engine.

Alex if you get a kit I would stay away from snow performance. I have had 2 different kits that they claim are "able to handle 100% meth" but it is totally not true. All my push fittings would start to leak, on my Vr-4 I went through 2 pumps thats snow performance makes and countless fittings.

Look into devils own meth kit or coolingmist those two are supposed to be the best kits out there. Unless you are trying to get really expensive like aquamist but those retail for mad $$$$

[Fujito]

Aquamist HFS # is the way to go.

[blackvr4]

its essentially going to do the same thing all those other kits will do but will cost twice as much if not more.

[renn]

Originally Posted by CleanNeon98

Thanks for the links. Unfortunately any tuning is out of the question with my car so it would have to just get strapped in and set up properly. Nothing I can do about the ECU.

you won't get any benefit from using meth without a tune, except for the lower charge temps...but that's so minor compared to the cost it's not even worth it.

same thing with race gas..you won't really see any noticeable benefit unless you tune for it.

Originally Posted by DPancoast

you dont need to use meth. theres people that use 50/50 water/windshield washer fluid (art/lagos) and do just fine.

ghetto...and it gunks up your engine with detergents and **** unless you use very specific washer fluid but by that point it's easier and cheaper just to buy from VP. 5 gallons is like 25 dollars...

Originally Posted by kenikh

Works great. It works by intercooling the intake charge through evaporative energy transfer and through detonation quenching. Water is great a lowering propensity for knock and meth increases net octane, as pure meth is ~220 octane euivalent. 50/50 and below and you don't need a tune. Above and you start messing w/ AFRs and a tune is a good idea.

220...lmao.

a.) meth is closer to 110-116 octane.

b.) at a 50/50 ratio of meth to water, and a 15% meth/water to fuel ratio (common) you're spraying about 7-8% pure meth into the engine. not any more noticeable to the octane rating than a bottle of octane booster. with a dual m12 nozzle set up spraying pure meth you might end up with a net 97-98 octane.

the benefit from meth comes from the cooling which allows you to tune for more boost at leaner AFR's due to reduced detonation..

i don't know what makes you think running meth without a tune will mess with the car's AFR's...other than making the car marginally richer, it wouldn't harm your car at all without a tune no matter what ratio you're spraying.

a tune is the only way to really make any noticeable power on meth however.

Originally Posted by Fujito

Aquamist HFS # is the way to go.

i had an hfs5 and i went through a pump, and a bunch of lines because something was clogging my tank over and over again. the aquamist kits are nice for their safety net of flow sensors and all that. definitely saved my engine more than once. a friend of mine had a coolingmist kit that the pump went on also, just way more trouble than it's worth.


bottom line, meth is too much trouble for a daily driver imo..maybe on a weekend car or a track car but on a dd it's just a pain in the ass. i hope this clears it up for you.

[blackvr4]

I have to reluctantly agree with your last statement about it being a PITA to DD with. It's not that it was tough to drive but all the BS I have had with my verious meth set ups from snow performance definitely has put a damper on things, I am still going to try to get my kit to work reliably without leaks. But I have steered away from the using meth on my galant, I am going straight 93 on that car and 1250s.

[Foolinaround]

I honestly love mine,2 pumps,never had a problem so far.

http://water.lovehorsepower.com/

[assault187]

Got SOME good info in here.

Just from experience; I've had the same Coolingmist pump in my car for about 4 years with no issues, although I have seen many fail on other cars. I spray a considerable amount of meth in my daily driver (1000cc) and most of the year I use a 100% methanol mix and in summer I use 50/50 with distilled water. Water has awesome cooling properties as well so one could benefit from just water injection but gains wont be too high. Water also better suppresses knock rather then using straight methanol. Running small amounts of methanol on a daily is more then tolerable and very safe with the use of a decent kit (Flow sensor, tank sensor etc.) but when its a large factor in your fuel demand, it can be a PITA, like Priming the system so you know its there when you need it. If the methanol isn't there when the engine needs it, you lean out which equals detonation, HOT temps, and possible damage to the motor.

Another thing to keep in mind is equal distribution, it is extremely important. The best way of doing this would be direct port injection where you use the same size injector on each runner of the intake manifold. There is a downside to this though... Being the meth is soo close to the combustion chamber and doesn't have too much time to cool the air charge like it would further down stream. You would expect to see more of a octane booster at that point rather then a considerably cooler intake charge. This will work wonders if your Intercooler setup is up to par or already have low intake temps. A mix with water will better suppress knock if you experience knock. With the intercooler pipe style of injection, you run the risk of leaning out cylinder number one in most cases. Depending on your placement and intake manifold design, this may or may not be a problem. This is where test and tune really comes into play when tuning your system for the best performance. The time that you put into this will pay off in the long run, Do it properly. You CAN'T just toss parts on your car and expect the best, the same rules apply when using meth injection.

...And YES, It must be tuned for. Otherwise your wasting your time.

I don't know if you (Alex the OP) is still interested in this but i guess it helps for future onlookers. When I was making 427hp back in the day, meth was AWESOME! Now that I'm so dependent on it to keep my fuel demand happy, its more nerve racking then anything else. I'm currently playing with the idea of alternative fuels and stepping the meth down by half.

[assault187]

Originally Posted by blackvr4

I have to reluctantly agree with your last statement about it being a PITA to DD with. It's not that it was tough to drive but all the BS I have had with my verious meth set ups from snow performance definitely has put a damper on things, I am still going to try to get my kit to work reliably without leaks. But I have steered away from the using meth on my galant, I am going straight 93 on that car and 1250s.

What kind of power did you have in mind?

[Darksun280]

I DD my 08 Mazdaspeed 3 with a DO meth kit DO5 nozzle. Car didn't like washer fluid so much but that pre mix boost just was fine. I ran a pressure activate switch for less hassle and made trouble shooting easier too.

[blackvr4]

Originally Posted by assault187

What kind of power did you have in mind?

not sure yet, I have an Billet 6 blade hx40, that I am going to run in a BEP t3 housing. I am looking to run it at 30psi on pump gas, so we will see how it takes it. I am currently in the hunt for 1000CCs for the DSM since i pulled my meth set up out this past weekend

I hope I will be able to run around 15* at 30psi on an 8blade hx35 on pump on the DSM, if I cant I will have to look for other ways to attain my goal, without having to hop onto the E85 bandwagon.

[mann]

I just did a water/meth install on a customer's car and my own afterwards, totally worthwhile and fine for a daily, if the conditions are right.

I prefer the AEM system--totally complete and 3 different jets, progressive controller, 0 leaks, easy to install, common pump easy to replace, filter is 12 bucks for extra insurance, includes EVERYTHING so you don't waste hours piecing things together.

I tune hi compression cast motors with boost, so in my world its a good idea. NOT for more power, but for extra protection. The same rules apply to low compression trying to run over 20-25 psi (depending on CR). But the reality of water/meth is that it IS a complex system to rely on, and really is best as an extra measure of protection. Fuses blow, hoses clog, jets clog, leaks can spring etc...and you might never know it. So tuning for the most power on meth is good only for bragging rights on a dyno, and a recipe for disaster for daily driving or track duty since if it fails the motor grenades.

HOWEVER. If you run a 10.8:1 cast compression motor at 10+ psi like I do, the extra protection is WELL worth it. That is already borderline to pre-ignition territory, and if for some reason it gets too hot out, the intercooler heatsoaks, the fuel trim pulls some fuel or god hates me that day, I still have extra octane and a cooler charge to prevent disaster.

So will it make extra power without tuning--no, and if that's what you want its a bad idea. But it will give lots of extra headroom. As for what to use, any windshield washer fluid that is blue, has no other ingredient other than methanol or water listed is fine.

I was against it for a while...extra cost, complexity, no power...but having an extra measure of protection on an FI car is worth it in my book.

[DriftNasty180sx]

i didnt know much after meth injec. after a long talk with me tuner.. i am def. getting it for the protection factor...i know i know ther is other way i could go but there is a meth kit with my name on it so i am going to take full advangte of it and install it get tuned and rock out....i have a fully built engine and i will gladly take all the protection i can get.

[SWAT Team S14]

1) Get yourself a spoon & a lighter.

2) Burn that **** til it liquifies.

3) Suck it up into a syringe.

4) Use a tourniquet to find a vein.

5) Jam that bitch into the biggest one that pops up.

6) Sit around shivering & drooling all over yourself for 10-12 hours.

7) Repeat.