need help understanding about narrow and wideband a/f..

[sleepersatty99]

ok so im looking for a air/fuel gauge. a few people told me to get a wideband and some have told me a narrowband will due. so whats the diffrence? and what do you guys suggest? im a bit confused about this. so any help will be really great.

p.s. sorry if this in the place.

[teh DIRT]

If you want a air fuel gauge just to have one, a narrowband will do. If you want an air fuel gauge to actually monitor your mixture and tune it....you MUST get a wideband. I could explain the technical data of both but it comes down to what I just said.

[Raven18940]

A narrowband can only measure A/F ratios between 14.0 and 15.0 (hence the name narrow band), but they do it with incredible precision. This is the stock sensor on your car and it's used for adjusting the A/F ratio at cruising and controlling emissions.

A wideband can measure from somewhere around 9.0 to 17.0 (wide band, get it?), but they don't have as great precision (it's still really freaking good though). You need the for tuning.

EDIT: I'm apparently wrong, see teh_DIRT's post for the correct info.

[teh DIRT]

I'm not trying to come off as rude, but the information you just posted in completely wrong and unreliable.

A narrowband sensor can read in the same range as a wideband can, but it cannot do it with the same precision. A zarconia sensor (narrowband) is a voltage generator that produces between 0-1 volts. The issue is this. Below 14.7:1 AFR, the sensor will read a low voltage.....above 14.7:1 AFR, the sensor will read a high voltage. This voltage however is within such a small window (.5 volts) that it cannot be used to reliably know air fuel range. BRB dinner.


Ok so that was narrowbands, which are weaksauce old technology. Most new cars come with widebands as the front o2 sensor because it does that much better of a job.

Widebands are not voltage generators and work on a 0-5 volt scale. In actuality, widebands produce amperage which is then converted to a usable voltage signal via a wideband controller. This sensor can read the same range as a narrowband, but in a more precise manner.

Widebands are handsdown the only sensor to buy, anything else is a waste of money.

[sleepersatty99]

i want it to monitor my mix. cause at times its running lean and then its rich. so im looking to monitor it and besides its getting boosted sometime this month.

[sleepersatty99]

or should i just a get the narrow band till i get the turbo?

[The Captain]

If you're gonna boost, wait till then and get a wideband.

[sleepersatty99]

well does anyone have any recommendations for widebands?

[teh DIRT]

i have a zietronix wideband sensor, its a more expensive one but I love it and the software it comes with. GREAT logging abilities.

zeitronix.com

or
zietronix.com

[Nick 95 6sp]

I have the FJO wideband with the NTK sensor ...the NTK sensor cost more than cheaper sensors like Bosch but it's much more durable/longer lasting if you run leaded gas once in a while, or often.

After I got mine NGK came out with a very highly rated wideband and it's quite a bit lower price than the FJO, so if I did it now I'd take a serious close look at the NGK setup. There are also other good ones around.

[MKIIISUPRA]

Originally Posted by Raven18940

A narrowband can only measure A/F ratios between 14.0 and 15.0 (hence the name narrow band), but they do it with incredible precision. This is the stock sensor on your car and it's used for adjusting the A/F ratio at cruising and controlling emissions.

A wideband can measure from somewhere around 9.0 to 17.0 (wide band, get it?), but they don't have as great precision (it's still really freaking good though). You need the for tuning.

....research


As for the threadmaker.....if you plan a turbo in the future just do yourself a favor and invest in a WB now. Personally i run a Zeitronix ZT2, it has nice, independent logging capabilities unlike most of the major WB's out there.

[teh DIRT]

yup zeitronix rocks. It can log:

wideband o2 reading
wideband o2 voltage
throttle position
RPMS
Boost
EGT
and user data (data of your choice)

all in one interface. LOVE IT!

[MKIIISUPRA]

Originally Posted by teh DIRT

yup zeitronix rocks. It can log:

wideband o2 reading
wideband o2 voltage
throttle position
RPMS
Boost
EGT
and user data (data of your choice)

all in one interface. LOVE IT!

not to mention it pairs with pocket logger nicely. Just got my PDA all hooked up today with it.....now if only i could figure out how to get the log files off the PDA to my comp lol

[Raven18940]

Originally Posted by teh DIRT

I'm not trying to come off as rude, but the information you just posted in completely wrong and unreliable.

A narrowband sensor can read in the same range as a wideband can, but it cannot do it with the same precision. A zarconia sensor (narrowband) is a voltage generator that produces between 0-1 volts. The issue is this. Below 14.7:1 AFR, the sensor will read a low voltage.....above 14.7:1 AFR, the sensor will read a high voltage. This voltage however is within such a small window (.5 volts) that it cannot be used to reliably know air fuel range. BRB dinner.


Ok so that was narrowbands, which are weaksauce old technology. Most new cars come with widebands as the front o2 sensor because it does that much better of a job.

Widebands are not voltage generators and work on a 0-5 volt scale. In actuality, widebands produce amperage which is then converted to a usable voltage signal via a wideband controller. This sensor can read the same range as a narrowband, but in a more precise manner.

Widebands are handsdown the only sensor to buy, anything else is a waste of money.

Thanks for the correction, it appears my understanding of O2 sensors was basic at best.

Originally Posted by MKIIISUPRA

....research

What do you want from me, I'm a computer guy! I read it in a tuning book, it was dumbed down, I'm sorry! Besides, while basic, my understanding was pretty much accurate. Narrowbands work right around the stoichiometric ratio and aren't very reliable anywhere else, and widebands measure pretty much any A/F a running engine can produce.

Also, the zeitronix software is amazing and they have a little LCD to display it all (I don't want huge gauges). I'm waiting for people to finish software tools to tune my ECU and then I'll probably get one of those.

[Loserkidwac]

As its been mention in this thread a few times wideband is the only one to buy...a narrow band gauge is just gonna be a light show and not going to give you any useful info, save your pennys and don't waste it on one use the money towards a wideband...if you aren't going to do your own tuning you could get away with a basic unit that just displays the a/f ratio

[RayArroyo]

Originally Posted by sleepersatty99

well does anyone have any recommendations for widebands?

innovate g2 wideband with gauge 289.00 minus the tst discount. also sleeper you had sent me some emails, id like to talk to you in person and go over your setup

http://www.turbotektuning.com/shop/i...products_id=40

[MKIIISUPRA]

Originally Posted by Loserkidwac

As its been mention in this thread a few times wideband is the only one to buy...a narrow band gauge is just gonna be a light show and not going to give you any useful info, save your pennys and don't waste it on one use the money towards a wideband...if you aren't going to do your own tuning you could get away with a basic unit that just displays the a/f ratio

wrong, narrowbands are still a cheap *temp* solution to get an idea of where your base maps are are at . You will never get an accurate reading since they oscillate so much but to say its completely useless just is inaccurate. This is good when you don't have the money to have a dedicated WB guage other than my palm.

Personally i run both b/c i don't have a WB gauge, nor do i want one as it would clash with my existing gauge setup.

[MKIIISUPRA]

Originally Posted by Raven18940

Thanks for the correction, it appears my understanding of O2 sensors was basic at best.


What do you want from me, I'm a computer guy! I read it in a tuning book, it was dumbed down, I'm sorry! Besides, while basic, my understanding was pretty much accurate. Narrowbands work right around the stoichiometric ratio and aren't very reliable anywhere else, and widebands measure pretty much any A/F a running engine can produce.

Also, the zeitronix software is amazing and they have a little LCD to display it all (I don't want huge gauges). I'm waiting for people to finish software tools to tune my ECU and then I'll probably get one of those.

your soul....

but in reality, you were very wrong lol ;) here is what you said:

A narrowband can only measure A/F ratios between 14.0 and 15.0 {very wrong}(hence the name narrow band), but they do it with incredible precision <--{couldn't be more wrong} . This is the stock sensor on your car and it's used for adjusting the A/F ratio at cruising and controlling emissions.

A wideband can measure from somewhere around 9.0 to 17.0 (wide band, get it?){wrong again, what it reads varies with the type of engine, for gasoline it will typically go up to 21}, but they don't have as great precision {wrong again ;)}(it's still really freaking good though). You need the for tuning.

[Loserkidwac]

Originally Posted by MKIIISUPRA

wrong, narrowbands are still a cheap solution to get an idea of where your base maps are are at . You will never get an accurate reading since they oscillate so much but to say its completely useless just is inaccurate. This is good when you don't have the money to have a dedicated WB guage other than my palm.

Personally i run both b/c i don't have a WB gauge, nor do i want one as it would clash with my existing gauge setup.

Narrow bands react to slow to really be any use but if you feel more comfortable with the pretty lights more power to ya!! lol...I'd say its a stretch but yes you could use it to see somewhat of where you are at but I'd rather save the cash either way its like driving around not know whats going on with th A/F lol

[MKIIISUPRA]

Originally Posted by Loserkidwac

Narrow bands react to slow to really be any use but if you feel more comfortable with the pretty lights more power to ya!! lol...I'd say its a stretch but yes you could use it to see somewhat of where you are at but I'd rather save the cash either way its like driving around not know whats going on with th A/F lol

I don't really see how you can say its "slow"? My readings compared to the WB are nearly syncronous. Yes is it can save you some cash if you jump straight to a WB but its still a safety cushion. When my engine was rebuilt i couldn't afford a WB and relied on teh narrow. It really helped to know if i was leaning out under boost until i could get a decent tune.