Very Serious Issue. PA public transit users please read.

[italianblaze]

signed the petition

[99SL2_Modder]

Originally Posted by wrx_snobordr

*CAUTION LONG RANT BELOW*

SEPTA is a joke. No offense, but they are sitting in the pot of **** they made. They remind m so much of the big 3 auto makers, and we all know the **** storm they are facing.

Septa pays a starting bus driver around 13 an hour, not great. But in 5 years that same person is making over $21 an hour. Now, that is not exactly great pay but then again, $45k to drive a bus isn't terrible either. Where they get hooked up at though is health care and Pensions. They are a government organization, people expect, people should be read Unions, for the gov to provide them with health care. So, they strike and they get health care, it may not be great, but it is paid for. How many other on here get that? I know I don't make $45k a year but I still have to pay for my health care. Then there is the pensions. Again, a relic of the past, before the 401(k), the Roth IRA, normal IRA or the many other vehicles people can use to build and grow their OWN retirement. Instead, SEPTA is still doling out money for all retired workers for both Pensions and Health care.

Then we have the issue of terrible use of resources. Who uses the bus the most? I would bet that 90% of the people who use them are in the city. Yet, at 11:15 at night, I am driving home down rt 13 near bristol and I see a bus, empty, driving its route. I go to the Oxford Valley mall, I see buses sitting outside waiting to pick up 3 or 4 people. I am sorry, but do we really need either of those routes? Or at least do we need them running at the consistency they are running currently? I could single handedly go in and save them millions just by reworking certain routes. Combine certain low passenger routes so the loop is bigger and cut the need for buses. I would then go in and rework the organizational structure. Personally, I don't know how it works, but if my guess is correct it is like any union run facility, inefficiently. I would restructure it to a learning organization, everyone is trained to do every job in their area. There wouldn't be a guy to mount a tire and a guy to put it on and a guy to hold the air gun, it would be 1 guy. There wouldn't be 3 levels of management, there would be 1. It would be made up of older workers who actually do the work. There would be monthly meetings of different groups of people to discuss ways to make things run smoother, and management would do what is suggested, after all, who knows what they need better than the workers.

Another option is leasing. I am sure there are companies out there would love to get their hands on the money that could be made by owning certain bus routes. Just as we are doing with roads, lease routes to private companies. Smaller routes, instead of cutting them and losing profit, lease them and make profit. Do the same with some of the bigger routes.

But of course, this is all just a pipe dream, none of this is possible. The second you told a unionized government run company that they will have to start being like teh rest of us and paying for their insurance, pre-tax of course, or may actually have to plan for their retirement and not sit on the shoulders of all of us other working stiffs they would be out in the streets up in arms begging for our support, while we ride our bikes to our non-tenure granting, non-health care subsidizing, non-pension providing jobs.

Forget about trying to lease the routes or reorganize the business structure. It will be spun as a non-worker friendly tragedy stealing the food off of poor SEPTA workers plates. Nothing will be said about the thousands of people who will have to move or find a new job because they can't afford to ride the bus or were one of the ones whose line was cut because the SEPTA employees were not willing to budge. They also will ignore the fact that all those who may be laid off if the company was reorganized, would still be able to apply to the new companies who took over the routes, given their experience, they would have a pretty damn good shot at getting the job, and since its private, it would most likely be better anyway.

*Rant off*

Don't guess, don't bet, and don't assume, because most of your "observations" come with a lack of knowledge.

Everyone at SEPTA pays for their benefits. Everyone. Period. It was only the mechanics that didn't and now they do.

11:15 at night, you're seeing late runners. The services are cut at that point in time. Plus, if you "reworked" your "low pop" routes into 1 route, you'd have a lot of stalled buses due to running out of fuel.

Your guess on how the mechanic structure works is also incorrect. Again, that's to be expected when you make an attempt to rant about a company you've done little research on. We do not do things in stages. You do what you can before the next shift. The shops are 24/7. These buses are put through utter hell on the routes they're running. They put more mileage and hours on their engines and suspension in a month than most of you will do in a year.

Again, you guys need to stop making assumptions, because well over 75% of you are wrong. You're trained to work in your area. And you're trained as you rank up.

Oh, and by the way, monthly meetings do happen.

But again, like I said, little to no research leads to incorrect assumptions and accusations.

Oh, and by the way, the buses get 3mpg on 120gal fuel tanks. That's not many routes in a day. The new hybrid buses get 4mpg. You might think, "Oh, 1mpg is ridiculous for spending almost 200k more on the bus" but again, that's because you don't think. 1mpg more in this situation is a 30% gain in fuel mileage...or, in other words, another 120 miles that can be squeezed out of the bus. Meaning less costs over all, and 200k would easily pay itself off.

[sherwood]

are you done being a dick to everyone that has something bad to say about it? or will u let anyone speak their mind with out being an asshole and coming up with smart remarks?

[sleepersatty99]

hey you brought the subject up not us.

[wrx_snobordr]

Originally Posted by 99SL2_Modder

Don't guess, don't bet, and don't assume, because most of your "observations" come with a lack of knowledge.

Everyone at SEPTA pays for their benefits. Everyone. Period. It was only the mechanics that didn't and now they do.

11:15 at night, you're seeing late runners. The services are cut at that point in time. Plus, if you "reworked" your "low pop" routes into 1 route, you'd have a lot of stalled buses due to running out of fuel.

Your guess on how the mechanic structure works is also incorrect. Again, that's to be expected when you make an attempt to rant about a company you've done little research on. We do not do things in stages. You do what you can before the next shift. The shops are 24/7. These buses are put through utter hell on the routes they're running. They put more mileage and hours on their engines and suspension in a month than most of you will do in a year.

Again, you guys need to stop making assumptions, because well over 75% of you are wrong. You're trained to work in your area. And you're trained as you rank up.

Oh, and by the way, monthly meetings do happen.

But again, like I said, little to no research leads to incorrect assumptions and accusations.

Oh, and by the way, the buses get 3mpg on 120gal fuel tanks. That's not many routes in a day. The new hybrid buses get 4mpg. You might think, "Oh, 1mpg is ridiculous for spending almost 200k more on the bus" but again, that's because you don't think. 1mpg more in this situation is a 30% gain in fuel mileage...or, in other words, another 120 miles that can be squeezed out of the bus. Meaning less costs over all, and 200k would easily pay itself off.

Don't come on here asking for assistance then blast people who have a different opinion than you. I noticed you ignored the option of privatizing routes or eliminating pensions. Don't cherry pick issues, but since you did here is my rebuttal.

Those late runner buses DO NOT need to be that large. I can guarantee you the majority of them that run outside of the city limits rarely fill up, so a 3mpg bus is overkill. So spending an extra 200k on a bus, that is not pulling its weight to begin with, IS wasteful spending. You don't fly a 747 from here to Boston do you? No, you fly a few more flights with smaller aircraft. Same with buses. Smaller = cheaper to operate and maintain.

Also, employees pay 1%, ONE PERCENT, of their wages towards health care, capped at 40 hours. They DO NOT pay for the entire plan as most other workers in the private sector do. Also, as part of the deal to end the strike pensions were increased. Again, a pension is not like a 401K where the workers put a majority of the money in and the company may match a certain percent. A pension the employer is supposed to put away a certain dollar amount every month the employee is there that will then be used to pay for the employee in retirement. Typically they employer pays much more, in some cases all, of the pension compared to a 401k which they generally will match up to 4-6% of gross salary, only if you are making contributions. Since SEPTA is a public company, this comes out of all of our pockets, even though I don't use the service.

Since SEPTA is a public company this is all public knowledge. I found one article stating the Authority, back in the 98 strike, wanted the ability to move workers from one area to another if work load increased or decreased. Apparently that move was struck down by the union. I wonder why, would it be because they would rather have all positions staffed full time to have more employees hence more power? I believe I mentioned something about Law of Diminishing Returns, weird, this is a classic example in action.

So I say again, SEPTA is lying in the bed they made. I don't ride it, so frankly I don't give a damn if it goes belly up. Every time SEPTA strikes I see it as all of those people saying to me "I am better than you and feel I should have my health care and pension subsidized by your tax money while you work and pay for your own health care and own retirement fund". I have no pity for the state SEPTA is in currently. I do not feel compelled to bail them out. They are not suffering because a few greedy CEO's pissed away their earning. They are suffering because the rank and file follow a few union leaders who claim to be fighting for their rights but in reality are working to ensure their future relevance.

[gpzjack]

last time i took septa,,,they threw me off the trolley....seems they have this thing about extremely drunk people blowing into giant horns....go figure

[99SL2_Modder]

Originally Posted by wrx_snobordr

Don't come on here asking for assistance then blast people who have a different opinion than you. I noticed you ignored the option of privatizing routes or eliminating pensions. Don't cherry pick issues, but since you did here is my rebuttal.

Those late runner buses DO NOT need to be that large. I can guarantee you the majority of them that run outside of the city limits rarely fill up, so a 3mpg bus is overkill. So spending an extra 200k on a bus, that is not pulling its weight to begin with, IS wasteful spending. You don't fly a 747 from here to Boston do you? No, you fly a few more flights with smaller aircraft. Same with buses. Smaller = cheaper to operate and maintain.

Also, employees pay 1%, ONE PERCENT, of their wages towards health care, capped at 40 hours. They DO NOT pay for the entire plan as most other workers in the private sector do. Also, as part of the deal to end the strike pensions were increased. Again, a pension is not like a 401K where the workers put a majority of the money in and the company may match a certain percent. A pension the employer is supposed to put away a certain dollar amount every month the employee is there that will then be used to pay for the employee in retirement. Typically they employer pays much more, in some cases all, of the pension compared to a 401k which they generally will match up to 4-6% of gross salary, only if you are making contributions. Since SEPTA is a public company, this comes out of all of our pockets, even though I don't use the service.

Since SEPTA is a public company this is all public knowledge. I found one article stating the Authority, back in the 98 strike, wanted the ability to move workers from one area to another if work load increased or decreased. Apparently that move was struck down by the union. I wonder why, would it be because they would rather have all positions staffed full time to have more employees hence more power? I believe I mentioned something about Law of Diminishing Returns, weird, this is a classic example in action.

So I say again, SEPTA is lying in the bed they made. I don't ride it, so frankly I don't give a damn if it goes belly up. Every time SEPTA strikes I see it as all of those people saying to me "I am better than you and feel I should have my health care and pension subsidized by your tax money while you work and pay for your own health care and own retirement fund". I have no pity for the state SEPTA is in currently. I do not feel compelled to bail them out. They are not suffering because a few greedy CEO's pissed away their earning. They are suffering because the rank and file follow a few union leaders who claim to be fighting for their rights but in reality are working to ensure their future relevance.

Again, we have no buses smaller than 30'. The late runner suburbs are all Eldo's...which are the 30's. And yes, I agree about the suburb routes. They never fill up and could easily run a Champ down this way (F450 with a bus back) but they're all in Germantown.

Also, the Hybrids are not run out here, because of the low pop routes. They're run currently in high pop (Southern), and are being looked at for Midvale and Gheny.

1% is ONLY the mechanics. Everyone else pays different amounts.

Also, there's nore than 1 union in SEPTA.

Also, these aren't my opinions, what I state are facts. I did not come here asking for assistance because this doesn't effect me in the least. I felt that maybe SOME people on this board use mass transit to move around the city without wasting gas.

Again, you're only stating partial information. Gather it all and then come up with a fight.

And yes, I ignored the leasing option, because that would make sense and we know that would work. That's why SEPTA doesn't do it. I also agree that an audit should be done to figure out where the hell it's all going, because I've seen what the CEO's drive, and it sure as hell aint luxury. The drivers make the cash. They're the ones with Lexus' and all.

If the company had the ability to move people from one location to another depending on workload, they would have to provide the ability for their tools to be transported. This also brings up the issue that people really don't want to see a SEPTA tow truck with workers boxes on the back. Because that's a good use of money. It would also slow down a LOT of progress on buses. The work flow changes daily, not weekly.

I'm attacking what I see as an opinion formed without full facts. If you're going to strike, do more research first. That's what I've been saying.

[99SL2_Modder]

Originally Posted by gpzjack

last time i took septa,,,they threw me off the trolley....seems they have this thing about extremely drunk people blowing into giant horns....go figure

Noise disruption?

Other than that, I've never heard of them doing that. I'll have to look that one up...

(not saying it didn't happen, saying that I've never heard of an employee having the balls to do it, nor a legit "book reason")

[Ryza24]

Originally Posted by whitezenki

Unions suck...

..certain unions of this city have supported my family for 2 generations dont bash unions bc septa cant structure their's

[drew]

kind off of topic but i was nearly run off the road by a septa bus while driving the explorer, while it was doing highway speeds on route 1 late at night. i got the bus number and called to complain but they didn't give a **** about it, **** septa. i swear to god they must recruit drivers at traffic court or something, i cannot tell you how many times i've been cut off by ****ing busses that just merge regaurdless of traffic

[99SL2_Modder]

Originally Posted by drew

kind off of topic but i was nearly run off the road by a septa bus while driving the explorer, while it was doing highway speeds on route 1 late at night. i got the bus number and called to complain but they didn't give a **** about it, **** septa. i swear to god they must recruit drivers at traffic court or something, i cannot tell you how many times i've been cut off by ****ing busses that just merge regaurdless of traffic

1) Where and what number?
2) When driving one of these buses, you have got to be aggressive. Drivers will never let a bus out. ****, I get people passing me on the god damn median just to go around me.

Oh, and where did you call? I might be able to get you a depot direct number that will deal with that driver for that day. They might do something. Dunno. HR normally is filled with office people that couldn't give a care less about anything outside of spying on the employees.

[drew]

Originally Posted by 99SL2_Modder

1) Where and what number?
2) When driving one of these buses, you have got to be aggressive. Drivers will never let a bus out. ****, I get people passing me on the god damn median just to go around me.

Oh, and where did you call? I might be able to get you a depot direct number that will deal with that driver for that day. They might do something. Dunno. HR normally is filled with office people that couldn't give a care less about anything outside of spying on the employees.

don't remember the bus number, it was on us-1 near 476 heading east ( or north, whatever )

i sent an e-mail on the contact thing, aswell as calling the number on the septa site "oh yeah okay thanks for calling"

[Chair-Force]

Originally Posted by 99SL2_Modder

Again, we have no buses smaller than 30'. The late runner suburbs are all Eldo's...which are the 30's. And yes, I agree about the suburb routes. They never fill up and could easily run a Champ down this way (F450 with a bus back) but they're all in Germantown.

Also, the Hybrids are not run out here, because of the low pop routes. They're run currently in high pop (Southern), and are being looked at for Midvale and Gheny.

1% is ONLY the mechanics. Everyone else pays different amounts.

Also, there's nore than 1 union in SEPTA.

Also, these aren't my opinions, what I state are facts. I did not come here asking for assistance because this doesn't effect me in the least. I felt that maybe SOME people on this board use mass transit to move around the city without wasting gas.

Again, you're only stating partial information. Gather it all and then come up with a fight.

And yes, I ignored the leasing option, because that would make sense and we know that would work. That's why SEPTA doesn't do it. I also agree that an audit should be done to figure out where the hell it's all going, because I've seen what the CEO's drive, and it sure as hell aint luxury. The drivers make the cash. They're the ones with Lexus' and all.

If the company had the ability to move people from one location to another depending on workload, they would have to provide the ability for their tools to be transported. This also brings up the issue that people really don't want to see a SEPTA tow truck with workers boxes on the back. Because that's a good use of money. It would also slow down a LOT of progress on buses. The work flow changes daily, not weekly.

I'm attacking what I see as an opinion formed without full facts. If you're going to strike, do more research first. That's what I've been saying.

You're an idiot. You always do this. You state your little rant and then when people disagree with you, you get all defensive and basicly call them misinformed sheep. SEPTA is a pos, always has been and always will be. That, sir, is a fact.

[wrx_snobordr]

Originally Posted by 99SL2_Modder

Again, we have no buses smaller than 30'. The late runner suburbs are all Eldo's...which are the 30's. And yes, I agree about the suburb routes. They never fill up and could easily run a Champ down this way (F450 with a bus back) but they're all in Germantown.

Also, the Hybrids are not run out here, because of the low pop routes. They're run currently in high pop (Southern), and are being looked at for Midvale and Gheny.

1% is ONLY the mechanics. Everyone else pays different amounts.

Also, there's nore than 1 union in SEPTA.

Also, these aren't my opinions, what I state are facts. I did not come here asking for assistance because this doesn't effect me in the least. I felt that maybe SOME people on this board use mass transit to move around the city without wasting gas.

Again, you're only stating partial information. Gather it all and then come up with a fight.

And yes, I ignored the leasing option, because that would make sense and we know that would work. That's why SEPTA doesn't do it. I also agree that an audit should be done to figure out where the hell it's all going, because I've seen what the CEO's drive, and it sure as hell aint luxury. The drivers make the cash. They're the ones with Lexus' and all.

If the company had the ability to move people from one location to another depending on workload, they would have to provide the ability for their tools to be transported. This also brings up the issue that people really don't want to see a SEPTA tow truck with workers boxes on the back. Because that's a good use of money. It would also slow down a LOT of progress on buses. The work flow changes daily, not weekly.

I'm attacking what I see as an opinion formed without full facts. If you're going to strike, do more research first. That's what I've been saying.

1% to my knowledge is not ONLY the mechanics, as the article I read, discussing the strike in 05, stated "the union wants SEPTA to continue to cover 100% of health care and SEPTA wants union members to pitch in 5% gross to help differ costs, they settled on 1%", hardly a compromise . As this strike was not just mechanics but all SEPTA personnel, one can only deduce that they are referring to ALL SEPTA employees. If you can provide valid, dated documentation to prove otherwise then I will believe you, but as of now I must go with the information I found, that came from a reliable source, 6abc. Knowqing that SEPTA wanted 5% and got 1% there is an obvious area that needs attention. Either coverage needs to be cut or employees need to start paying their share. Personally, I would push for employees to cover 100% of the costs, but thats just me, as that is what I currently have to do.

As I stated, and you confirmed, the buses they are using in some areas are overkill. This increases the operating costs.

So now we have come up with a few solutions to the current quandary SEPTA finds itself in.

A. Invest in smaller, more efficient models to handle lighter traffic areas.
B. Increase employee contributions to Health care by 3% and Life insurance will no longer be provided. It will be offered but will be 100% paid for by the employee.
C. Lease some of the outlying area routes so SEPTA can target its efforts on highest traffic areas.
D. Freeze all Pensions, all vested amounts will remain untouched and will be paid out upon retirement. Going forward all employees will be entered into opt out Roth 401(k)'s. They will have a default contribution rate of 4% of which SEPTA will match.


And there you go. Those changes alone will save millions. If I had the time I would look longer to try and find out the inner workings of the company but I don't feel like it. If I did I am sure I could find countless other changes.

Basically, my point is, I find these problems to be manufactured. There are a number of things SEPTA and the unions can do to run more efficiently. A rate hike to me just shows the unions arrogance and lack of concern for anything other than their own survival.

[99SL2_Modder]

Originally Posted by wrx_snobordr

1% to my knowledge is not ONLY the mechanics, as the article I read, discussing the strike in 05, stated "the union wants SEPTA to continue to cover 100% of health care and SEPTA wants union members to pitch in 5% gross to help differ costs, they settled on 1%", hardly a compromise . As this strike was not just mechanics but all SEPTA personnel, one can only deduce that they are referring to ALL SEPTA employees. If you can provide valid, dated documentation to prove otherwise then I will believe you, but as of now I must go with the information I found, that came from a reliable source, 6abc. Knowqing that SEPTA wanted 5% and got 1% there is an obvious area that needs attention. Either coverage needs to be cut or employees need to start paying their share. Personally, I would push for employees to cover 100% of the costs, but thats just me, as that is what I currently have to do.

As I stated, and you confirmed, the buses they are using in some areas are overkill. This increases the operating costs.

So now we have come up with a few solutions to the current quandary SEPTA finds itself in.

A. Invest in smaller, more efficient models to handle lighter traffic areas.
B. Increase employee contributions to Health care by 3% and Life insurance will no longer be provided. It will be offered but will be 100% paid for by the employee.
C. Lease some of the outlying area routes so SEPTA can target its efforts on highest traffic areas.
D. Freeze all Pensions, all vested amounts will remain untouched and will be paid out upon retirement. Going forward all employees will be entered into opt out Roth 401(k)'s. They will have a default contribution rate of 4% of which SEPTA will match.


And there you go. Those changes alone will save millions. If I had the time I would look longer to try and find out the inner workings of the company but I don't feel like it. If I did I am sure I could find countless other changes.

Basically, my point is, I find these problems to be manufactured. There are a number of things SEPTA and the unions can do to run more efficiently. A rate hike to me just shows the unions arrogance and lack of concern for anything other than their own survival.

It's only TWU234 employees. Which are mainly mechanics. I think the drivers are included in that, but I'll have to double check. A and B payrolls are different unions.

I think we'd have an issue downgrading to 401k's, cause we have 457's from ING or some ****.

[Scapegoat]

[99SL2_Modder]

Originally Posted by Scapegoat

No one's on a soapbox, cupcake.

[sleepersatty99]

hey do you know what size the bus is on route 77 cause its a little bigger then an F250 its a really small bus? and can i ask what is your job at septa? and are the city division or the frontier?

[99SL2_Modder]

Originally Posted by sleepersatty99

hey do you know what size the bus is on route 77 cause its a little bigger then an F250 its a really small bus? and can i ask what is your job at septa? and are the city division or the frontier?

It's probably a Champion. They run an Allison 1000 tranny(same size as 2500HD/3500HD GM's). They're what I suggest take the place of the Eldo's up this way...but the fact is that they're built like total crap. They have mega issues with everything. I don't remember who manufactured them, but they're just horrible vehicles. They utilize a Caterpillar engine. Caterpillar makes great engines...if you're using heavy equipment that sits at top RPM all day. It will last forever like that. With stop and go driving, they need re-rings every 4 months or so. CAT needs to stick to machines, not transit.

I'm a bus mechanic, and I'm in the city division. (Frontier and Victory are the only 2 in the burbs, and they're both way the hell out there).