Sign this petition keeping Government control OUT of healthcare

[ILLJIM69]

Originally Posted by importpower99

Just so your aware 75% of the people on welfare are off it with-in the first year. And not everybody is a leeche.
Plus Bill Clinton took care of those individuals you are refering to, when he reformed welfare. And trust me, you can't live a happy life on welfare.

Really? Because the last time I checked, it was a state and locally funded program. However, if people are on and off within a year, good because it was designed to only get people back on their feet after a layoff or something of the sort.

But I know you're wrong because I see with my own eyes people who stay on social welfare programs for a very long time. You must be confused when I say "welfare". I am talking about SSI, HEAP, food stamps, Section 8, things of this nature.....any program designed to subsidize an expense that everyone else has to work and pay for out of pocket. Hell, in the dump town I lived in prior to moving, the lady across the street didn't do ****. She had her apartment paid for, HEAP covered 75% of her utilities, food stamps........but somehow she had a fairly new car (it was a 2001ish Cavalier and a 70-71 Mustang that was kept in a garage), cable TV, internet, was always out at the bar but magically never at a job, unless you count smoking, drinking and getting stoned a job. Just ONE example, happens all over the country.

I am also sure that tons of people can tell you the usual horror stories of food shopping and having someone on food stamps in front of them buying junk food, soda, steak........things that we have to work for, they get for free...well, they get them on our dime anyway.

EDIT - I am sure you have some form of proof to reflect your stat that 75% of people in America are on any social welfare program no longer than a year (cumulatively).

[Proven]

Originally Posted by ILLJIM69

First off, I have addressed this already, in this thread as a matter of fact. If you want to use that then you better be prepared to give up police, firemen, all forms of politicians, judges, road crews, social workers, etc. A statement like that is the last resort of a 17 year old kid who gets a speeding ticket......"hey, I pay your salary". :rol

By the way, I WORK for the government I provide them with my life and they use me as they wish. There is a HUGE difference between what I (and other government employees) do and people who just mooch off the taxpayers or do the bare minimum in life with their hands always out for the next socialist program.

And it is used for saving lives. However I want to know what will be next on the agenda if health care gets taken over (and it will be taken over) by the government. Is it not fair that rich people can buy nice cars and big houses? Shall the working people in America subsidize loans for lower class and jobless people so they too can have a 3,000 square foot house? When does it end? Health care insurance is commodity, a product that you pay for. It is not a right and so far nobody has been able to show me that it is a right afforded to the people.

Like I mentioned I respect what you do and also respect Police and fire big time. I don't mind paying a cent for the security knowing they will come to my aid. Now If I said I refused to pay taxes for such services (military, police, and fire) because I’m not paying a cent for someone else to have that protection. To me, I think I would look like an ass.

Having your house put out if it catches fire isn’t a RIGHT its a service (product if you will)!

Having your mail delivered also is not a right.

having smooth roads to drive on isnt a right -

I don't mind paying taxes for those services for everyone. They are put in place by government for our safety, protection, and convenience.. Health coverage is just going to be another ones of those things added to the list which protects our nations individual health.

[poolmike]

Originally Posted by Proven

Like I mentioned I respect what you do and also respect Police and fire big time. I don't mind paying a cent for the security knowing they will come to my aid. Now If I said I refused to pay taxes for such services (military, police, and fire) because I’m not paying a cent for someone else to have that protection. To me, I think I would look like an ass.

Having your house put out if it catches fire isn’t a RIGHT its a service (product if you will)!

Having your mail delivered also is not a right.

having smooth roads to drive on isnt a right -

I don't mind paying taxes for those services for everyone. They are put in place by government for our safety, protection, and convenience.. Health coverage is just going to be another ones of those things added to the list which protects our nations individual health.

If you want to compare your life/healthcare to things like fire depts, police depts, the dept of transportation, etc....great, lets compare. Not one of those systems is run efficiently. You want your health in the hands of those same people? Thanks, but I'll pass.

[noclutch]

Originally Posted by ILLJIM69

Health care insurance is commodity, a product that you pay for.

That's the whole problem. When there's billions in profit for the corporations that run healthcare, everybody loses. It's a monopoly controlled by the few, fueled by money.
While I think the Obama plan has some flaws, it's a lot better then the system in place now. And as for reforming our current system and ignoring the "public option"- It will never happen, there's too much money, too many lobbyists and everybody's for sale.

[importpower99]

Originally Posted by ILLJIM69

Really? Because the last time I checked, it was a state and locally funded program. However, if people are on and off within a year, good because it was designed to only get people back on their feet after a layoff or something of the sort.

But I know you're wrong because I see with my own eyes people who stay on social welfare programs for a very long time. You must be confused when I say "welfare". I am talking about SSI, HEAP, food stamps, Section 8, things of this nature.....any program designed to subsidize an expense that everyone else has to work and pay for out of pocket. Hell, in the dump town I lived in prior to moving, the lady across the street didn't do ****. She had her apartment paid for, HEAP covered 75% of her utilities, food stamps........but somehow she had a fairly new car (it was a 2001ish Cavalier and a 70-71 Mustang that was kept in a garage), cable TV, internet, was always out at the bar but magically never at a job, unless you count smoking, drinking and getting stoned a job. Just ONE example, happens all over the country.

I am also sure that tons of people can tell you the usual horror stories of food shopping and having someone on food stamps in front of them buying junk food, soda, steak........things that we have to work for, they get for free...well, they get them on our dime anyway.

EDIT - I am sure you have some form of proof to reflect your stat that 75% of people in America are on any social welfare program no longer than a year (cumulatively).

REQUIRMENTS FOR WELFARE BENIFITS/ASSISTANCE:
To be eligible for welfare in the United States, an applicant must be a United States citizen or lawfully admitted to the country for permanent residence. Some exceptions may apply to citizenship rules. When an individual applies for welfare, his or her citizenship status is reviewed, along with the status of each household member, before assistance is granted. Each state has its own residency requirements as well. For example, to be eligible in Pennsylvania, an individual must be living within the state and have the intention of remaining there.

A social security number is required for receiving welfare benefits. This is required not just of adults, but also of children in an applying household. If someone in an applying household doesn’t have a social security number, the person must apply for one, provide proof of applying for a number, and give the number to his or her caseworker once it is issued. The caseworker may also require a copy of the person’s social security card.

Often, adults must meet certain work requirements in order to be eligible for welfare. The requirements may vary depending on the program and the state in which the individual is seeking aid. Generally, recipients are expected to seek employment and/or training. Some states provide work training and employment search programs geared specifically towards welfare recipients.

In certain circumstances, a recipient may be exempt from work requirements. For example, an individual in a single-parent household, with a child under 12 months old, may be temporarily excused from work requirements. Temporarily or permanently disabled recipients, as well as those enrolled in substance abuse programs, may be excused from work requirements as well. Additionally, individuals otherwise eligible for aid, but attending college, may be eligible for a work exemption for as long as they are attending school in a program that meets welfare requirements.

Depending on the welfare program, there may be special requirements for single and separated parents, their dependent children, and child support. Typically, recipients are required to seek child support and cooperate fully with welfare’s child support and paternity requirements, including efforts to find an absent parent. Once child support is granted, welfare may intercept all or part of it to compensate for the fact that the individual is receiving assistance. Exemptions from child support cooperation are made for good cause, such as proven domestic violence situations"

Let me tell you a story about sterotypes. Look, most of the stories you hear are usually false and lack crediabilty. The days of welfare queens are over. When was the last time you were standing in line at the grocery store ready to pay for your generic affordable food, when your stuck behind a woman, heavly decked out in gold jewelry. She is paying for her USDA approved sirloin with food stamps, while her 5 kids are running around the checkout counter screaming and breaking s**t.....excatly.
They are required to work, and they are assigned a case worker who reviews there case periodically. The only time they are not required to work, is if they have a child under a certian age.

As far as your neighbor, I couldn't answer that for you. You are probably missing a key piece of evidence that you are purposely with-holding, or really.........just don't know the truth and your guessing. So unless you physically seen her state benefits letter, have proof that she didn't have a job, know that she purchased the car, then your statement is just an opinion, and means nothing.
So can you be wrong? sure! Could she have slipped through the cracks of the system? sure!
They are required to work, and they are assigned a case worker who reviews there case periodically. The only time they are not required to work, is if they have a child under a certian age.

Here is the benefits for welfare:
http://www.dpw.state.pa.us/ServicesP.../003676754.htm


And yes Clinton reformed health care, he switched it from dependence to second chance:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/22/op...22clinton.html


And if you were refering to Disabilty, then no that figure does not apply to that. I was talking welfare, Section 8, food stamps, TANF, WIC.

[ILLJIM69]

Originally Posted by Proven

Like I mentioned I respect what you do and also respect Police and fire big time. I don't mind paying a cent for the security knowing they will come to my aid. Now If I said I refused to pay taxes for such services (military, police, and fire) because I’m not paying a cent for someone else to have that protection. To me, I think I would look like an ass.

I honestly don't need the police. I respect them and the job they do, however I can care for my own property and family. Quite frankly, if someone broke into my home, the whole incident would be over way before the cops showed up anyway.

You're trying to compare a product that is for sale (health care) versus civil order and criminal control. Apples and watermelons.

Originally Posted by Proven

Having your house put out if it catches fire isn’t a RIGHT its a service (product if you will)!

You're right and wrong. First of all, most of the fire departments in my area are volunteer. I understand that the equipment they use is funded by taxes and other means, however these guys don't get paid for the heroic work they do.

However don't think for one minute that if state and locally funded fire departments disappeared today, that there wouldn't be privately run companies showing up to provide that service tomorrow. If people wanted their house put out, they would pay for those services. Not to mention that putting out fires goes beyond protecting private property. Home owners pay taxes on that land and the structures on it, if they all burn down and nobody lives there, then the state and local governments lose money.

Originally Posted by Proven

Having your mail delivered also is not a right.

You're right, however, much like any other service in America, don't think that a private business wouldn't appear to take over the USPS's role. Besides, letters and card are slowly going the way of the dodo due to the internet. UPS, FedEx and DHL move packages just as well, if not better, than the USPS does.

Originally Posted by Proven

having smooth roads to drive on isnt a right -

Again, you're right. I wouldn't care if we moved along on dirt roads. I probably wouldn't be driving a low slung sports car though. Keep in mind that our roads are much more than just a means of transportation for private citizens though. They serve to transport goods as well, which benefits everyone, whether you drive or not.

Originally Posted by Proven

I don't mind paying taxes for those services for everyone. They are put in place by government for our safety, protection, and convenience.. Health coverage is just going to be another ones of those things added to the list which protects our nations individual health.

Yeah, government run. And how efficient are they in the grand scheme of things? Are you really going to try and use things like state run road crews and the USPS for examples of how well the government runs things?

[ILLJIM69]

Originally Posted by importpower99

REQUIRMENTS FOR WELFARE BENIFITS/ASSISTANCE:
To be eligible for welfare in the United States, an applicant must be a United States citizen or lawfully admitted to the country for permanent residence. Some exceptions may apply to citizenship rules. When an individual applies for welfare, his or her citizenship status is reviewed, along with the status of each household member, before assistance is granted. Each state has its own residency requirements as well. For example, to be eligible in Pennsylvania, an individual must be living within the state and have the intention of remaining there.

A social security number is required for receiving welfare benefits. This is required not just of adults, but also of children in an applying household. If someone in an applying household doesn’t have a social security number, the person must apply for one, provide proof of applying for a number, and give the number to his or her caseworker once it is issued. The caseworker may also require a copy of the person’s social security card.

Often, adults must meet certain work requirements in order to be eligible for welfare. The requirements may vary depending on the program and the state in which the individual is seeking aid. Generally, recipients are expected to seek employment and/or training. Some states provide work training and employment search programs geared specifically towards welfare recipients.

In certain circumstances, a recipient may be exempt from work requirements. For example, an individual in a single-parent household, with a child under 12 months old, may be temporarily excused from work requirements. Temporarily or permanently disabled recipients, as well as those enrolled in substance abuse programs, may be excused from work requirements as well. Additionally, individuals otherwise eligible for aid, but attending college, may be eligible for a work exemption for as long as they are attending school in a program that meets welfare requirements.

Depending on the welfare program, there may be special requirements for single and separated parents, their dependent children, and child support. Typically, recipients are required to seek child support and cooperate fully with welfare’s child support and paternity requirements, including efforts to find an absent parent. Once child support is granted, welfare may intercept all or part of it to compensate for the fact that the individual is receiving assistance. Exemptions from child support cooperation are made for good cause, such as proven domestic violence situations"

Let me tell you a story about sterotypes. Look, most of the stories you hear are usually false and lack crediabilty. The days of welfare queens are over. When was the last time you were standing in line at the grocery store ready to pay for your generic affordable food, when your stuck behind a woman, heavly decked out in gold jewelry. She is paying for her USDA approved sirloin with food stamps, while her 5 kids are running around the checkout counter screaming and breaking s**t.....excatly.
They are required to work, and they are assigned a case worker who reviews there case periodically. The only time they are not required to work, is if they have a child under a certian age.

As far as your neighbor, I couldn't answer that for you. You are probably missing a key piece of evidence that you are purposely with-holding, or really.........just don't know the truth and your guessing. So unless you physically seen her state benefits letter, have proof that she didn't have a job, know that she purchased the car, then your statement is just an opinion, and means nothing.
So can you be wrong? sure! Could she have slipped through the cracks of the system? sure!
They are required to work, and they are assigned a case worker who reviews there case periodically. The only time they are not required to work, is if they have a child under a certian age.

Here is the benefits for welfare:
http://www.dpw.state.pa.us/ServicesP.../003676754.htm


And yes Clinton reformed health care, he switched it from dependence to second chance:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/22/op...22clinton.html


And if you were refering to Disabilty, then no that figure does not apply to that. I was talking welfare, Section 8, food stamps, TANF, WIC.

All of that is well and good, but I think it's fair to say that there are standards out there and certain criteria that needs to be met that often is not. There is almost no enforcement in terms of state and local government checking up on these people. If the list of stuff you posted above rang true and the government did a great job of ensuring people didn't abuse the system, I wouldn't have a problem per se. However, they don't. I surely hope that you aren't going to tell me that there aren't people out there who don't latch onto the welfare system for life and never get caught.

Oh and I lumped disability in there because that systems is terribly abused. People just need a note from a doctor (in essence, I know there is some more to it) and they qualify. I see too many people who can do SOME form of work and claim to be disabled. Just because you worked construction and hurt your back doesn't mean you can't find a job less physical. And how about handicap tags? Tell me those aren't easy to get. Same idea behind disability. Hell, when I retire from the military, I will qualify for disability.....at least 10% automatically (probably more since that is usually what people who do 4 years gets), without any actual injuries to show for it. If your brain functions at least partially, you can just go to the docs a few times and complain about your back hurting. Once it's on paper and you go to get out of the military, you can get 25% or more for something that doesn't even exist! Tell me that isn't messed up. And the civilian sector is no better.

[OutlawzPrez]

Originally Posted by ILLJIM69

I honestly don't need the police. I respect them and the job they do, however I can care for my own property and family. Quite frankly, if someone broke into my home, the whole incident would be over way before the cops showed up anyway.

You're trying to compare a product that is for sale (health care) versus civil order and criminal control. Apples and watermelons.



You're right and wrong. First of all, most of the fire departments in my area are volunteer. I understand that the equipment they use is funded by taxes and other means, however these guys don't get paid for the heroic work they do.

However don't think for one minute that if state and locally funded fire departments disappeared today, that there wouldn't be privately run companies showing up to provide that service tomorrow. If people wanted their house put out, they would pay for those services. Not to mention that putting out fires goes beyond protecting private property. Home owners pay taxes on that land and the structures on it, if they all burn down and nobody lives there, then the state and local governments lose money.



You're right, however, much like any other service in America, don't think that a private business wouldn't appear to take over the USPS's role. Besides, letters and card are slowly going the way of the dodo due to the internet. UPS, FedEx and DHL move packages just as well, if not better, than the USPS does.



Again, you're right. I wouldn't care if we moved along on dirt roads. I probably wouldn't be driving a low slung sports car though. Keep in mind that our roads are much more than just a means of transportation for private citizens though. They serve to transport goods as well, which benefits everyone, whether you drive or not.



Yeah, government run. And how efficient are they in the grand scheme of things? Are you really going to try and use things like state run road crews and the USPS for examples of how well the government runs things?

Wow your on fire man. Good job.

[poolmike]

Originally Posted by OutlawzPrez

Wow your on fire man. Good job.

I agree. I feel the same way he does. Private businesses would do a much better job at doing EVERYTHING the gov't wants to provide us with.

[noclutch]

Except healthcare, big business has obviously dropped the ball on that one.

[bastid]

Originally Posted by noclutch

Except healthcare, big business has obviously dropped the ball on that one.

Care to elaborate a bit more? How has big business dropped the ball?

[poolmike]

Originally Posted by bastid

Care to elaborate a bit more? How has big business dropped the ball?

Because you apparently have to pay alot for it, yet they give you nothing in return, but yet you still pay for it because it is a rip-off, because they will pay for you when you are sick. or something. Make sense now? I would also like to know how they dropped the ball and why we need reform?

[noclutch]

Something about the massive amounts of corruption doesn't sit well with me. That and the thousands of insured who when they finally need the insurance get ****ed over due to pre-existing conditions, jacked up rates, denial of services etc (and whatever else the ins. companies come up with so they don't have to pay)... All for billions in profit.

[noclutch]

I used to not have health insurance, I didn't think I needed it. One hospital stay (E.R.) for about 3 hrs., didn't see a doctor(maybe I did for about a minute), didn't get any drugs except an I.V. to hydrate me ended up costing over $2000.

Currently I have insurance, I'm self employed so I pay over $600/month for myself, my wife and our daughter. It costs a fortune but I can't afford not to have it with the inflated cost of healthcare.

Something needs to be done.

[bastid]

Originally Posted by poolmike

Because you apparently have to pay alot for it, yet they give you nothing in return, but yet you still pay for it because it is a rip-off, because they will pay for you when you are sick. or something. Make sense now? I would also like to know how they dropped the ball and why we need reform?

Oh, I was more so trying to get the "new guy in the thread" to elaborate more on his part. I know why it's not working currently :D

Originally Posted by noclutch

Something about the massive amounts of corruption doesn't sit well with me. That and the thousands of insured who when they finally need the insurance get ****ed over due to pre-existing conditions, jacked up rates, denial of services etc (and whatever else the ins. companies come up with so they don't have to pay)... All for billions in profit.

Wait... You are against "massive corruption," yet you believe the government will do a great job fixing the healthcare system? We are doomed.

So, you think what SHOULD happen is someone who is borderline cardiac arrest should be able to get a cheap insurance plan right before a heart attack or stroke, even if they have an irreverible and extremely high risk damage already done? One where they will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to the insurance company, and you're blaming the insurance company. What's the difference in the insurance company denying them enrollment and the US taxpayer footing the bill?

Just trying to play devils advocate.

When you operate a business at a loss, you go out of business. When the government operates at a loss, what happens?

[90blacktsiawd]

Originally Posted by bastid

When the government operates at a loss, what happens?

They spend more money. Didn't you know that's the answer to all our financial problems?

[noclutch]

No, we start a war.

[Z31Fanatic]

Here are a couple myth/facts that I found interesting:

Myth: Higher health care costs are the result of continually rising insurance premiums, inflating the price of health care.

Fact: Because insurance is a means of financing health care, premiums have to track the underlying cost of health care services. Those underlying costs have been rising and insurance premiums have simply kept pace.

Health care costs drive insurance premiums, not the other way around. Over the last decade, health care costs have risen about 7.7 percent a year on average, and insurance premiums have also risen at 7.7 percent. The overall rise in health care costs is a result of higher rates of chronic conditions such as obesity, diabetes and heart disease, more expensive technologies and procedures becoming available, and "cost shifting by the government" that is, doctors and hospitals charge privately insured patients more to offset the losses that come from Medicare/Medicaid underpayments that do not cover costs. In fact, about 11 percent of the average family commercial Preferred Provider Organization (PPO) premium stems from government cost shifting. Other drivers of cost include waste in the system and how providers are reimbursed for delivering health care services; they are paid by procedure, which many believe leads to unnecessary care.

The primary factors responsible for price increases can and should be addressed through health care reform that emphasizes, for example, the importance of wellness and preventive medicine, administrative simplification, investment in health information technology (HIT), emphasis on evidence-based medicine and health delivery payment reform.


Myth: Health care companies reap huge profits and benefit from the status quo.

Fact: The average profit margin of health care companies stands at only 5 percent, lower than many other industries and other players in the health system. It is better for everyone if we get and keep all Americans covered.

While there’s plenty of talk about “insurance company profits,” the truth is that health insurance companies’ five-year average profit margin is about 5.3 percent. That means for every dollar of revenue insurance companies take in, they make about 5 cents in profit. This is significantly less than drug companies (18.4 percent), cigarette manufacturers (13.4 percent) or computer software companies (22.5 percent). Some companies in recent years have paid about as much in taxes as they made in profit.

[poolmike]

Let's not forget what would happen to insurance companies *IF* we have a major catastrophe in this country. We saw what happened in New Orleans with property insurance. People lost everything and insurance companies could not keep up. The gov't stepped in the way of all progress.

What if some disease comes along and kicks the crap out of the entire east coast? Just think of the tax bill after that. We will be slaves to the gov't.

I want to take care of myself and my family.

[ILLJIM69]

Originally Posted by noclutch

Except healthcare, big business has obviously dropped the ball on that one.

Yeah and the government had nothing to do with the way the current system ended up huh? Strict regulations, moronic requirements, not to mention liberal courts awarding every other malpractice suit "victim" a favorable judgement.

Yep, the current state of the health care system is totally the insurance company's faults and nobody else.