Sign this petition keeping Government control OUT of healthcare

[3rdGenMr2Girl]

yeah, thank god he is gone. he's a waste of life. and cleanneon, i agree. if someone enters your house, you should have every right to protect your belongings. i'm not saying going on a shooting rampage, but you should definitely be able to atleast get physical enough to get your stuff back.

[CleanNeon98]

Originally Posted by 3rdGenMr2Girl

yeah, thank god he is gone. he's a waste of life. and cleanneon, i agree. if someone enters your house, you should have every right to protect your belongings. i'm not saying going on a shooting rampage, but you should definitely be able to atleast get physical enough to get your stuff back.

It wasn't my house, it was our cars, and I wasn't home to do anything about the situation. If it had been my house quite simply I would have locked the doors, called the police, and held them down in the corner if my house with my Gamo P23, it may only be a Co2 gun but it shoots hard enough to disable anyone at a reasonable distance (though I'd probbably go to jail for actually firing it).

[4DR_DB7]

Originally Posted by 4DR_DB7

My Parting Gift, aka. what I've been trying to explain to those under-informed people out there:

http://www.philly.com/philly/busines..._up_17_5_.html


Report: Health insurance costs up 95%; income up 17.5%

A report released today crunches some numbers to confirm what most of us already probably knew: The cost of our health insurance is going up much faster than our pay.

According to Families USA, a Washington-based nonprofit that advocates for affordable health care, between 2000 and 2009 the cost of a family premium provided by an employer rose by 95.2 percent while median income went up by just 17.5 percent. To make matters more galling, workers are getting fewer benefits plus higher deductibles and co-pays for the extra money.

The organization blamed the higher prices on the rising cost and increased use of medical treatments, inadequate oversight of insurance companies, lack of competition among insurers in many markets, and cost shifting from the growing numbers of uninsured to the insured.

The higher prices have also made it more difficult for people to get insurance through their jobs. Nationally, the percentage of U.S. companies that offer health insurance to employees dropped from 69 to 63 from 2000 to 2008.

Ron Pollack, executive director of Families USA, said his group is generally "supportive of what the White House is trying to do" and of Democratic plans to reform health care.

In Pennsylvania, Families USA found:

From 2000 to 2009, the average price of a family health insurance premium purchased by an employer rose from $6,721 to $13,116.

The employer share of that premium grew by $4,531 to $9,955, or 83.5 percent.

The average worker's share rose by 143.7 percent, from $1,297 to $3,161.

The price of a premium for an individual climbed by 93.9 percent, from $2,467 in 2000 to $4,782 in 2009.

The employer share of an individual premium went up to $3,879 from $2,094, an 85.2 percent increase.

The employee's share grew by 142 percent, from $373 to $904.

Median earnings for Pennsylvania rose from $24,834 to $29,188 from 2000 to 2009

this guy knows what he's talking about!

[Elliott18t]

Originally Posted by CleanNeon98

I'm sorry but in turn of recent events I think I have a say here. My car was broken into, my camera gear stolen. It was a couple of 14-16 year olds as my mom described from when she saw them laugh at her when she told them she was calling the police. What would happen if I was home, came out, and beat the living **** out of both of the kids for breaking into my car, and my moms, and our neighbors? I'd be in jail for assaulting a minor, or if they were of age I'd probbably still be in jail for assault. By the book I'm supposed to do nothing until police arrive or until a threat is posed towards me, a knife, a gun, whatever. If they just get into my car, take my ****, and walk away, there's nothing I can do and they can get off with it.

Thanks government for taking another step into my life and telling me that I can't protect myself and my family against criminals. Where I come from, I could beat them, shoot them, whatever, and it would be looked at as justice, here it's looked at as a crime because I am defending myself, my family, and our property. **** that.

seriously, If i ever caught the people who touched my car and nearly totalled it (came out to 12k in damage...) i would've gone on a rampage. NO ONE should've touched my ****, and i feel the cops didnt do **** about it. they took it in for evidence but just told me my car was a clean one... wtf. IF i was home i wouldve beaten the **** out of the people. not to death but enough to scare them.

[3rdGenMr2Girl]

Originally Posted by 4DR_DB7

this guy knows what he's talking about!

did you really just compliment yourself? ugh, you're one of those people i'd love to punch in the face.

[Proven]

Originally Posted by 3rdGenMr2Girl

absolutely not. but it's not fair to anyone. i don't think it's right for the people who paid for their healthcare all along to suddenly have to wait to have procedures done or to see a doctor. and let's face it, the government will now be deciding if and when you can have a surgery since they're the one paying for it. i got my surgery done within two weeks. what if i were to have to have waited for months?

The government WILL NOT be deciding whether or not you can have surgery unless your trying to get a nose job or breast implants covered. People paying for coverage wait for procedures to get done already (you might not of, but its not just about you remember), there’s nothing but guesses that say it will take longer under this plan..

PLEASE STOP MAKING GUESSES AND USING TWISTED TRUTH AS YOUR BASIS FOR BEING AGAINTS THIS PLAN.

[Proven]

Originally Posted by OutlawzPrez

THANK YOU GOD! HE IS GONE! LOL

Here's a fact buddy. "Something which i know is very hard for you to understand so I'm gonna try to make it simple with lots of big letters...

Fact No. 1: Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers.[1] Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the United States, and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the U.K. and 457 percent higher in Norway. The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher.

Fact No. 2: Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians.[2] Breast cancer mortality is 9 percent higher, prostate cancer is 184 percent higher and colon cancer mortality among men is about 10 percent higher than in the United States.

Fact No. 3: Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries.[3] Some 56 percent of Americans who could benefit are taking statins, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease. By comparison, of those patients who could benefit from these drugs, only 36 percent of the Dutch, 29 percent of the Swiss, 26 percent of Germans, 23 percent of Britons and 17 percent of Italians receive them.

Fact No. 4: Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians.[4] Take the proportion of the appropriate-age population groups who have received recommended tests for breast, cervical, prostate and colon cancer:

Nine of 10 middle-aged American women (89 percent) have had a mammogram, compared to less than three-fourths of Canadians (72 percent).
Nearly all American women (96 percent) have had a pap smear, compared to less than 90 percent of Canadians.
More than half of American men (54 percent) have had a PSA test, compared to less than 1 in 6 Canadians (16 percent).
Nearly one-third of Americans (30 percent) have had a colonoscopy, compared with less than 1 in 20 Canadians (5 percent).
Fact No. 5: Lower income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report "excellent" health compared to Canadian seniors (11.7 percent versus 5.8 percent). Conversely, white Canadian young adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower income Americans to describe their health as "fair or poor."[5]

Fact No. 6: Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the U.K. Canadian and British patients wait about twice as long - sometimes more than a year - to see a specialist, to have elective surgery like hip replacements or to get radiation treatment for cancer.[6] All told, 827,429 people are waiting for some type of procedure in Canada.[7] In England, nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment.[8]

Fact No. 7: People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. More than 70 percent of German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand and British adults say their health system needs either "fundamental change" or "complete rebuilding."[9]

Fact No. 8: Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians. When asked about their own health care instead of the "health care system," more than half of Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared to only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).[10]

Fact No. 9: Americans have much better access to important new technologies like medical imaging than patients in Canada or the U.K. Maligned as a waste by economists and policymakers naïve to actual medical practice, an overwhelming majority of leading American physicians identified computerized tomography (CT) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) as the most important medical innovations for improving patient care during the previous decade.[11] [See the table.] The United States has 34 CT scanners per million Americans, compared to 12 in Canada and eight in Britain. The United States has nearly 27 MRI machines per million compared to about 6 per million in Canada and Britain.[12]

Fact No. 10: Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations.[13] The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other single developed country.[14] Since the mid-1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to American residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined.[15] In only five of the past 34 years did a scientist living in America not win or share in the prize. Most important recent medical innovations were developed in the United States.[16] [See the table.]

Conclusion. Despite serious challenges, such as escalating costs and the uninsured, the U.S. health care system compares favorably to those in other developed countries.

1. Fact, and it will all get better under this plan.

2. Fact - fact #9, 4 and 3 are the reasons why we have better survival rates. NOT because our healthcare system is the 36th best in the world.

Once again twisted truth. We have better survival rates because of our doctors and technology. NOT because our current systems is run so perfectly. Our Doctors and tech. will stay the same under this plan and grow. The amount of money used to get the same survival rates will be lessoned. MORE people will actually survive under this plan because more people will be able to get the treatment they need.

If your all for the fact that our country has a higher survival rate then vote FOR this bill to make it even higher.

[bastid]

Originally Posted by Proven

1. Fact, and it will all get better under this plan.

Hey Proven... can you do me a favor?

Can you please elaborate for me (as specifically as possible) how you believe this plan will reduce healthcare costs? Feel free to use exact figures on cost reduction, but provide sources.

[4DR_DB7]

Proven - don't waste your time on these guys. They are closed-minded radical right wingers, like Rush Limbaugh. You know there is no reasoning with them. They don't even know why they hold the beliefs that they do... so how could you possibly convince them otherwise. Its not like they see things objectively so that you could actually influence their opinions with logic. :D

This thread is just an outlet for all the whiny cry-babies who are still butt-sore about losing the election. Period. The end.

[bastid]

Originally Posted by 4DR_DB7

Proven - don't waste your time on these guys. They are closed-minded radical right wingers, like Rush Limbaugh. You know there is no reasoning with them. They don't even know why they hold the beliefs that they do... so how could you possibly convince them otherwise. Its not like they see things objectively so that you could actually influence their opinions with logic. :D

This thread is just an outlet for all the whiny cry-babies who are still butt-sore about losing the election. Period. The end.

I asked a fair question. The replies in this thread have been more what people will believe will happen vs. how they believe it will happen.

PS - I thought you left?

[OutlawzPrez]

Originally Posted by Proven

1. Fact, and it will all get better under this plan.

2. Fact - fact #9, 4 and 3 are the reasons why we have better survival rates. NOT because our healthcare system is the 36th best in the world.

Once again twisted truth. We have better survival rates because of our doctors and technology. NOT because our current systems is run so perfectly. Our Doctors and tech. will stay the same under this plan and grow. The amount of money used to get the same survival rates will be lessoned. MORE people will actually survive under this plan because more people will be able to get the treatment they need.

If your all for the fact that our country has a higher survival rate then vote FOR this bill to make it even higher.

PROVE IT!

Originally Posted by bastid

Hey Proven... can you do me a favor?

Can you please elaborate for me (as specifically as possible) how you believe this plan will reduce healthcare costs? Feel free to use exact figures on cost reduction, but provide sources.

Right on man.

Originally Posted by 4DR_DB7

Proven - don't waste your time on these guys. They are closed-minded radical right wingers, like Rush Limbaugh. You know there is no reasoning with them. They don't even know why they hold the beliefs that they do... so how could you possibly convince them otherwise. Its not like they see things objectively so that you could actually influence their opinions with logic. :D

This thread is just an outlet for all the whiny cry-babies who are still butt-sore about losing the election. Period. The end.

Look who's whining ^^^^^ & always blaming someone else for their problems. You my friend are closed minded. You don't have much if not any of an arguement so you decide to go on her & harrass people instead of convincing them why your ideas are right?

[Proven]

Originally Posted by CleanNeon98

I'm sorry but in turn of recent events I think I have a say here. My car was broken into, my camera gear stolen. It was a couple of 14-16 year olds as my mom described from when she saw them laugh at her when she told them she was calling the police. What would happen if I was home, came out, and beat the living **** out of both of the kids for breaking into my car, and my moms, and our neighbors? I'd be in jail for assaulting a minor, or if they were of age I'd probbably still be in jail for assault. By the book I'm supposed to do nothing until police arrive or until a threat is posed towards me, a knife, a gun, whatever. If they just get into my car, take my ****, and walk away, there's nothing I can do and they can get off with it.

Thanks government for taking another step into my life and telling me that I can't protect myself and my family against criminals. Where I come from, I could beat them, shoot them, whatever, and it would be looked at as justice, here it's looked at as a crime because I am defending myself, my family, and our property. **** that.

This is why the gov. mandates car insurance. So you don’t have to go out there and risk your life for a possession.

If it was to protect yourself or family your allowed to go balls out on um.

[Proven]

Originally Posted by bastid

Hey Proven... can you do me a favor?

Can you please elaborate for me (as specifically as possible) how you believe this plan will reduce healthcare costs? Feel free to use exact figures on cost reduction, but provide sources.

Hey bastid, long time to speak haha! Can you please elaborate for me how I'm wrong? (as specifically as possible) how you believe this plan will WILL NOT reduce healthcare costs? Feel free to use exact figures on cost reduction, but provide sources..

"right on man"

I don’t have exact numbers because it’s a PLAN.

Obama has already gotten specific with how it will lower costs (did you miss it?) and it makes perfect sense to me that it will. Buying lower cost drugs that are the same exact thing, digital files for more efficient run offices and to stop double/triple testing, competition for drug and health insurance companies which will force them to bring down costs and also be more efficient. etc.

Can you tell me how keeping everything the same will lower costs? I think it goes without saying that the current system is doing nothing but rising costs.

[Proven]

Originally Posted by OutlawzPrez

PROVE IT!?

Screaming "prove it" must make you right huh?

You’re kidding me right? I can see why 4DR_DB7 lost it (Although some of his comments went over board it shouldn’t delete the ones that made perfect sense!) the proof is within your "proof". You posted your facts trying to prove that our current healthcare system is why we have higher survival rates, within your proof it states why, and it doesn't look like its because of our healthcare system. It looks like its because of our doctors and technology WHICH WILL STAY THE SAME, NOT TO MENTION THAT SURVIVAL RATE WILL INCREASE WITH THIS BILL DO TO MORE PEOPLE BEING COVERED.

Also, don't try and act like you care about survival rates while NOT caring about getting health coverage to all Americans for them to survive also. It’s frustrating.

[bastid]

Originally Posted by Proven

I don’t have exact numbers because it’s a PLAN.

But surely there is provision in the now-aborted HR 3200 that specifically addresses lowering cost, isn't there?

Originally Posted by Proven

Obama has already gotten specific with how it will lower costs (did you miss it?) and it makes perfect sense to me that it will. Buying lower cost drugs that are the same exact thing, digital files for more efficient run offices and to stop double/triple testing, competition for drug and health insurance companies which will force them to bring down costs and also be more efficient. etc.

I've seen Obama speak about the bill as it relates to access to "affordable" healthcare for the uninsured, however I can't seem to locate anything that speaks to how they plan on eliminating the costs of healthcare?

The prescription drug thing doesn't really apply because a deal was made with big pharma which would have protected them in exchange for $150M in pro-HR3200 advertising throughout the remainder of calendar 2009. Digitizing medicine is not addressed in HR3200. I suppose a public option competes against private insurance (even if it is apples to oranges), but what I'm trying to get at is how does this "bring down costs and be more efficient, etc.?"

Originally Posted by Proven

Can you tell me how keeping everything the same will lower costs? I think it goes without saying that the current system is doing nothing but rising costs.

I never stated once that keeping everything the same will lower costs. I support true healthcare reform. However, you do recognize in your own words quoted above that it is the current system that is causing an increase in cost and not the large demographic of uninsured Americans.

For a brief minute, let's pretend I'm a physician. We'll say that it costs me $50 to perform a physical exam today. Tomorrow everything is identical except I have 10% more patients on my schedule. How much does it cost to perform the same physical exam compared to yesterday?

If your answer is $50, how did insuring more people reduce cost? If the cost is lower, what else changed to reduce the cost from $50?

[ILLJIM69]

Originally Posted by GHost240SX

Alright now that I am at home for a little bit i can properly respond. When I say deserve I mean those who contribute something to our society whether it be a job, service or whatever. Not those who simply want a handout.

And you need to specify how liberals have been destroying America for the last 75 years because ALOT of change has occurred over the last 75 years. So I curious as to what you're so adamantly exclaiming. And if you haven't noticed the republican party of today isn't what it was 75 years ago neither is the democratic party. Actually historically they have reversed roles. And when you say liberal that can be placed on both sides. There are LIBERAL conservatives, LIBERAL democrats and etc.

And to this whole deserve argument going on......those who actually contribute to society deserve basic health care if not more affordable healthcare.

You aren't telling me anything I don't know about the political parties of today, look at Bush, he was a huge liberal.

Anyway, if I actually have to sit here and point out all the ways that the left wing has been fighting to turn America away from it's roots and more into a socialist state, you are just going to ignore it anyway, so I won't waste my time.

[ILLJIM69]

Originally Posted by 4DR_DB7

This thread is hopeless.... seriously guys, I tried, but can't submit myself to this ignorance anymore. Have fun propagating the Right-Wing Fear Mongering Tactics. I hope you all get cancer (and spend every last dollar of your life-savings on treatment and care). Best of luck!

The only one spouting off ignorance is people like you, check my sig.

BTW - Don't worry about that last part, robots don't get cancer.

[ILLJIM69]

Originally Posted by DiabloMR2

i didnt say that you cant afford it. but what about the hard working americans that cant? or those out of work? they deserve to die from cancer cuz they cant afford heathcare. what if you had been laid off when companies just started dropping people left and right. you have no job and no healthcare. but uh-oh all of a sudden theres a lump on your boob. what you gonna do?

Life isn't fair sometimes.

[4DR_DB7]

Originally Posted by Proven

Screaming "prove it" must make you right huh?

You’re kidding me right? I can see why 4DR_DB7 lost it (Although some of his comments went over board it shouldn’t delete the ones that made perfect sense!) the proof is within your "proof". You posted your facts trying to prove that our current healthcare system is why we have higher survival rates, within your proof it states why, and it doesn't look like its because of our healthcare system. It looks like its because of our doctors and technology WHICH WILL STAY THE SAME, NOT TO MENTION THAT SURVIVAL RATE WILL INCREASE WITH THIS BILL DO TO MORE PEOPLE BEING COVERED.

Also, don't try and act like you care about survival rates while NOT caring about getting health coverage to all Americans for them to survive also. It’s frustrating.

Pm'd!

[ILLJIM69]

Originally Posted by Proven

The government WILL NOT be deciding whether or not you can have surgery unless your trying to get a nose job or breast implants covered. People paying for coverage wait for procedures to get done already (you might not of, but its not just about you remember), there’s nothing but guesses that say it will take longer under this plan..

PLEASE STOP MAKING GUESSES AND USING TWISTED TRUTH AS YOUR BASIS FOR BEING AGAINTS THIS PLAN.

Our speculations are just as valid as the speculations from those who think this proposed new systems will work better for everyone.

Originally Posted by Proven

1. Fact, and it will all get better under this plan.

You are just guessing this, it's not a fact at all.

Originally Posted by Proven

2. Fact - fact #9, 4 and 3 are the reasons why we have better survival rates. NOT because our healthcare system is the 36th best in the world.

First of all, the WHO is a bad organization to base arguments on since they are clearly in favor of socialist programs.

That being said, why do you think we have all the best technologies, medicines and doctors? That's right, because money funds these things. Take that away and there won't be any motivation to come out with new procedures and medicines, plus fewer people will want to get involved in medical fields since a big part of the allure is the pay.

Stop thinking about NOW and look towards the future a little bit.

Originally Posted by Proven

Once again twisted truth. We have better survival rates because of our doctors and technology. NOT because our current systems is run so perfectly. Our Doctors and tech. will stay the same under this plan and grow. The amount of money used to get the same survival rates will be lessoned. MORE people will actually survive under this plan because more people will be able to get the treatment they need.

And AGAIN, you're just assuming everything will stay the same in terms of our doctors, R&D and everything else.

I am still curious as to what awesome medical advancements France has given the world. You guys who support that type of system have yet to answer that question.

Originally Posted by Proven

If your all for the fact that our country has a higher survival rate then vote FOR this bill to make it even higher.

And again, more speculation and assumptions. It might work well in the short term, but try and think about your kids of their kids. For people who keep screaming about how selfish we are, you sure do keep thinking about NOW NOW NOW! Another case of American entitlement.