Sign this petition keeping Government control OUT of healthcare

[OutlawzPrez]

If I decide not to get health insurance the government is going to fine me $2,500 every year.

Lets reform OURS & NOT fall under socialism! One of the primary issues I take with Obama’s health-care plan is that this kind of wealth transfer was never envisioned by the Constitution. The Bill of Rights guarantees that we should be able to live our lives relatively free from government interference. I should be free to live my life without health insurance and not receiving a $2,500 fine from the government if I so choose. I wonder if there are any valid Constitutional arguments to be made here. This is more then just an income tax, this is something entirely different. The founders never expected our federal government to go to this kind of extent or to wield this much power over it’s citizenry.

Please take a minute to sign this petition keeping Government control OUT of healthcare.

http://www.freeourhealthcarenow.com/

http://www.freeourhealthcarenow.com/Images/ncpa_header4.jpg

[jpalamar]

If they would just not treat people without insurance this wouldn't be a problem. You gotta pay to play.

[poolmike]

If they would just not treat people without insurance this wouldn't be a problem. You gotta pay to play.

I don't have insurance...why should they turn me away? I prefer to pay my own way.

Anyway, I already signed it and called every politician I can get a hold of.

[OutlawzPrez]

Great job man! Lets keep this thing going. People think they can't change the government, but WE the people are the government.

[jpalamar]

I don't have insurance...why should they turn me away? I prefer to pay my own way.

Anyway, I already signed it and called every politician I can get a hold of.

I'm not saying you should get fined for not having insurnace, but why should WE pay for your health care? If you want to pay for your own stuff, go for it, but I don't see very many people with the kind of cash laying arround to cover very much medically.

[OutlawzPrez]

I'm not saying you should get fined for not having insurnace, but why should WE pay for your health care? If you want to pay for your own stuff, go for it, but I don't see very many people with the kind of cash laying arround to cover very much medically.

We need to give "free health care" to the people who really need it, not the entire frekkin USA including illegal immigrants. We have a system for people who can't afford healthcare already. What we really need to do is reform the current one NOT destroy it.

[jpalamar]

Car insurance is the same concept as health insurance:
You pay for insurance to protect your car. You wreck, you get fix, if no insurance, toyr
You pay for insuance in case of injuruy. If you get hurt, you get patched up. If not, you are SOL.

I pay to drive because maintaining the roads cost money. Health insurance costs money as well. Hence why you pay for it.

How many of the people that NEED health insurance do you think have car payments, cable, high speed internet? They can cut back come of these bills and then can afford it. Some things are luxuries and others are needs. How many people on this site even 'can't aofford ' insurance yet have a modded car.

[grimm]

it's illegal to sell your own organs as well.

[jpalamar]

it's illegal to sell your own organs as well.

They :banned: you from eBay if you try... lol

[OutlawzPrez]

Car insurance is the same concept as health insurance:
You pay for insurance to protect your car. You wreck, you get fix, if no insurance, toyr
You pay for insuance in case of injuruy. If you get hurt, you get patched up. If not, you are SOL.

I pay to drive because maintaining the roads cost money. Health insurance costs money as well. Hence why you pay for it.

How many of the people that NEED health insurance do you think have car payments, cable, high speed internet? They can cut back come of these bills and then can afford it. Some things are luxuries and others are needs. How many people on this site even 'can't aofford ' insurance yet have a modded car.

Very true. If people just cut back wasteful spending then they could prolly afford health insurance. But they pay for car payments, cable, high speed internet, ps3's, hookers etc.

Did you sign this yet?

[Proven]

We need to give "free health care" to the people who really need it, not the entire frekkin USA including illegal immigrants. We have a system for people who can't afford healthcare already. What we really need to do is reform the current one NOT destroy it.

(Not trying to bash, seriously, just want information)

So Obama is trying to give free health insurance to non-US citizens like illegal imagrants? Where is this writen BY Obama?

Maybe you can sway me, or maybe I can sway others reading this that this Petition is fueled by feelings and thoughts that aren't true / or twisted truth like how Obama is a terrorist and not a US citizen...

What system do we have for people who can't afford healthcare?

(Again, I'm not trying to bash, just trying to find the truth rather then listening/believing he said, she said, slash wisper down the lane information)

[CleanNeon98]

(Not trying to bash, seriously, just want information)

So Obama is trying to give free health insurance to non-US citizens like illegal imagrants? Where is this writen BY Obama?

Maybe you can sway me, or maybe I can sway others reading this that this Petition is fueled by feelings and thoughts that aren't true / or twisted truth like how Obama is a terrorist and not a US citizen...

What system do we have for people who can't afford healthcare?

(Again, I'm not trying to bash, just trying to find the truth rather then listening/believing he said, she said, slash wisper down the lane information)
Better question, why should we have one period?

Signed.

[sleepersatty99]

so your not down with any kind on universal health care?

I'm sorry but we gave the heath care professionals a chance to run the system they couldn't.
So they tried to put business men/women in a position to run it and that is failing more now.
the cost of health care is going up at a rate of 40% a year. I'm sorry but my car insurance doesn't go up that much. even if i get into an accident. In fact in alot of cases it goes down. does my health insurance do that NOPE.

BUT do i think the govt is going about this the wrong way and rushing with this yes. i think they need to take the time and study others universal health care system (i.e Canada).

[zex97]

The government tried their hand at healthcare, ie...medicare and medicaid. Both of those systems are broke, attempt to give you the cheapest care and condone long waits. Even the VA healthcare, which I have used, results in long waits and disputes over payments for care and prescriptions. The government can not run anything efficiently. The only free healthcare option should be for a specific income class or dependent class.

[bastid]

so your not down with any kind on universal health care?

I'm sorry but we gave the heath care professionals a chance to run the system they couldn't.
So they tried to put business men/women in a position to run it and that is failing more now.
the cost of health care is going up at a rate of 40% a year. I'm sorry but my car insurance doesn't go up that much. even if i get into an accident. In fact in alot of cases it goes down. does my health insurance do that NOPE.

BUT do i think the govt is going about this the wrong way and rushing with this yes. i think they need to take the time and study others universal health care system (i.e Canada).

The cost of healthcare is rising because 9,000 people turn 65 every day. These are smokers, drinkers, and high-risk patients generally speaking. 80% of all healthcare costs come with chronic yet preventable conditions - Diabetes, Obesity, Hypertension, Hyperlipidemia, Coronary Artery Disease, Asthma, etc. A large population within the 60+ million baby boomers has at least 2 of the above conditions.

As the baby-boomers all age, the cost of healthcare will rise naturally. The idea that any plan the government could slap together will curb healthcare costs increasing is plain lunacy. The variables are out of their control.

The reality of the situation is that its a 50 year solution based on rewarding preventative care and promoting healthy lifestyles.

[sleepersatty99]

The cost of healthcare is rising because 9,000 people turn 65 every day. These are smokers, drinkers, and high-risk patients generally speaking. 80% of all healthcare costs come with chronic yet preventable conditions - Diabetes, Obesity, Hypertension, Hyperlipidemia, Coronary Artery Disease, Asthma, etc. A large population within the 60+ million baby boomers has at least 2 of the above conditions.

As the baby-boomers all age, the cost of healthcare will rise naturally. The idea that any plan the government could slap together will curb healthcare costs increasing is plain lunacy. The variables are out of their control.

The reality of the situation is that its a 50 year solution based on rewarding preventative care and promoting healthy lifestyles.

if you think that then how come other countries can do it and yet still drive down there health care? So based on what you just said prescriptions are just supply and demand? so they keep increasing the price for that reason?
So that gives the hospital the right to charge somebody 25 bucks for an aspirin? This is the best and i love this. if you had to pay a doctors or hospital bill out of pocket they would charge 40% to 50% more Then that of a bill sent to someones health care provider. and this is a known fact and i have seen many of my hospital/doctors bills when i having issues with my back. and the difference was amazing at what i would have had to pay if i didn't have insurance.

So tell me how is this fair?

[bastid]

if you think that then how come other countries can do it and yet still drive down there health care?

Other countries being the ones who are in more dire financial straits than us? With more healthy populations because they live healthier lifestyles? The ones where half the population isn't obese? Apples and oranges, my friend.

So based on what you just said prescriptions are just supply and demand? so they keep increasing the price for that reason?

Prescriptions are priced to counteract R&D, hard and soft costs in getting it through FDA/etc, as well as paid for failed projects that never came to market and still maintain organizational growth year over year. It's a business, remember? Again, people who don't agree with the medication prices can either go with a generic whenever possible or elect a non-drug therapy for their high cholesterol - you know, like stop ****ing eating cholesterol.

So that gives the hospital the right to charge somebody 25 bucks for an aspirin?

If that's the fair market price across all area hospitals for an aspirin, then so be it. You don't buy cars from dealerships who gouge their customers do you? Go to a different hospital.

if you had to pay a doctors or hospital bill out of pocket they would charge 40% to 50% more Then that of a bill sent to someones health care provider. and this is a known fact and i have seen many of my hospital/doctors bills when i having issues with my back. and the difference was amazing at what i would have had to pay if i didn't have insurance.

Average collections when a balance falls to patient responsibility is approximately 50% at best. So, a $5,000 procedure reimbursed by a payer at $5,000 would be charged $8,000-10,000 to a patient because they will only ever collect the original $5,000 at best. That's how it works... The viable and responsible alternative is that they can charge the same amounts whether its payer or patient responsibility, then send the patient immediately to collections and destroy their credit if they can't make payment on the fee. Most of the time a hospital or healthcare provider will write off large portions of patients' debt.

[CleanNeon98]

The cost of healthcare is rising because 9,000 people turn 65 every day. These are smokers, drinkers, and high-risk patients generally speaking. 80% of all healthcare costs come with chronic yet preventable conditions - Diabetes, Obesity, Hypertension, Hyperlipidemia, Coronary Artery Disease, Asthma, etc. A large population within the 60+ million baby boomers has at least 2 of the above conditions.

As the baby-boomers all age, the cost of healthcare will rise naturally. The idea that any plan the government could slap together will curb healthcare costs increasing is plain lunacy. The variables are out of their control.

The reality of the situation is that its a 50 year solution based on rewarding preventative care and promoting healthy lifestyles.
This.
Very true. If people just cut back wasteful spending then they could prolly afford health insurance. But they pay for car payments, cable, high speed internet, ps3's, hookers etc.

Did you sign this yet?
And this.
if you think that then how come other countries can do it and yet still drive down there health care? So based on what you just said prescriptions are just supply and demand? so they keep increasing the price for that reason?
So that gives the hospital the right to charge somebody 25 bucks for an aspirin? This is the best and i love this. if you had to pay a doctors or hospital bill out of pocket they would charge 40% to 50% more Then that of a bill sent to someones health care provider. and this is a known fact and i have seen many of my hospital/doctors bills when i having issues with my back. and the difference was amazing at what i would have had to pay if i didn't have insurance.

So tell me how is this fair?
When you buy a case of soda at the store, a 12 pack of cans costs you what..4 bucks? Maybe less if you get it on sale. Go to a vending machine and it's $1 a can. Same concept, you want/need it, they got it.

[Proven]

Better question, why should we have one period?

Signed.


Best question. Try finding out exactly what it is Obama is trying to do before denying it. Or did you just blindly sign it? Are you 100% educated enough to know EXACTLY what it is Obama is trying to do? Or are you just trying to stop something? <

[sleepersatty99]

Other countries being the ones who are in more dire financial straits than us? With more healthy populations because they live healthier lifestyles? The ones where half the population isn't obese? Apples and oranges, my friend.



Prescriptions are priced to counteract R&D, hard and soft costs in getting it through FDA/etc, as well as paid for failed projects that never came to market and still maintain organizational growth year over year. It's a business, remember? Again, people who don't agree with the medication prices can either go with a generic whenever possible or elect a non-drug therapy for their high cholesterol - you know, like stop ****ing eating cholesterol.



Just so you know MOST of the countries who you seem to think don't eat ****ty foods. In fact eat more foods higher in fats then we do. look at 3/4 of of the euro countries. there cooking methods and prep methods have more fats to them as well as sugars.

So you don't think getting a universal health care system would give man people the preventive care needed for the county to become healthy?
and be able to control all the variables within a certain time frame?

[Nors]

This petition will not work.


And to add to the above comments Its not fats that are the issue its HFCS and other artificial crap. Good book on this matter is In Defense of Food: An Eater's Manifesto - Michael Pollan

[sleepersatty99]

If we take the time to look Canada's health care system. it took them years to get everyone healthy. but they did it. and they continue to provide PREVENTIVE care to everyone,And that has driven down the cost of all medical related items such as prescriptions and hospital bills and all. I thin we just need to take a step back and plan this out carefully and not rush into something

[OutlawzPrez]

(Not trying to bash, seriously, just want information)

So Obama is trying to give free health insurance to non-US citizens like illegal imagrants? Where is this writen BY Obama?

Maybe you can sway me, or maybe I can sway others reading this that this Petition is fueled by feelings and thoughts that aren't true / or twisted truth like how Obama is a terrorist and not a US citizen...

What system do we have for people who can't afford healthcare?

(Again, I'm not trying to bash, just trying to find the truth rather then listening/believing he said, she said, slash wisper down the lane information)

People that can't afford health care can goto the local county assistance office. You can apply for health care/dental or temporary health care if you can't afford it. I should know, I've done it once when I lost my job. also children in Pa get free health care up until their 18yrs old or done school depending on their families situation.


Obama Health Plan to Cover 12 Million Illegals

"On Friday, Democrats moved one step closer to giving free health insurance to the nation’s estimated 12 million illegal aliens when they successfully defeated a Republican-backed amendment, offered by Rep. Dean Heller, R-Nev., that would have prevented illegal aliens from receiving government-subsidized health care under the proposed plan backed by House Democrats and President Barack Obama."

This information can be found at http://www.newsmax.com/headlines/health_care_obama/2009/07/19/237484.html

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO PAY FOR A BORDER HOPPER'S HEALTHCARE? YES/NO? WHAT IN THE WORLD IS OBAMA THINKING! I DON'T WANT 50% OF MY PAYCHECK GOING TOWARDS THIS BILL. AND IF I DON'T AGREE WITH IT OR GET ANY WHAT SO EVER COVERAGE I'LL BE FINED $2500 YEARLY. WAKE UP PEOPLE THIS IS AMERICA NOT CANADA OR CHINA. DO YOU REALLY WANT BIG GOVERNMENT & BUREAUCRATS MAKING YOUR HEALTH CARE DECISIONS & DETERMANING WHATS GOOD FOR YOU?! DO YOU REALLY WANT PEOPLE LIKE ACORN HELPING OUT WITH THIS & DO YOU REALLY WANT THE GOVERNMENT KEEPING YOUR PERSONAL HEALTH INFORMATION ON FILE IN DC?!

[4DR_DB7]

Yeah, because signing this is really going to make a difference. :D

Lesson on how to change the world:

Step 1: Turn off your computer. No one ever changed the world by posting threads on internet forums, fyi.

[OutlawzPrez]

Fyi this petition is legit.

[Renegade_]

Fyi this petition is legit.

The petition might be legit, but the problem is if anyone is actually going to give a ****.

I don't think so.

Nope, wait...

Nvm, no one gives a **** yet.

[CleanNeon98]

Best question. Try finding out exactly what it is Obama is trying to do before denying it. Or did you just blindly sign it? Are you 100% educated enough to know EXACTLY what it is Obama is trying to do? Or are you just trying to stop something? <
I'm thinking realistically, how will this program be funded, what will that do to people in the US? If you charge people more tax, they have less money to spend, guess our economy is taking another plunge.

You meanwhile seem to be siding with this plan and Obama not thinking about these things, just buying into the fairytale oasis that's being sold to you by the media.

[sleepersatty99]

I'm thinking realistically, how will this program be funded, what will that do to people in the US? If you charge people more tax, they have less money to spend, guess our economy is taking another plunge.

You meanwhile seem to be siding with this plan and Obama not thinking about these things, just buying into the fairytale oasis that's being sold to you by the media.

look at it this way. if i was paying 300 bucks every pay check just for my health insurance. and they raise my taxes lets say another 100 bucks more just to pay for health care that lets everyone be a part of it and NOT turned down for a prexsiting( i.e smokeing, or back problems) like all of the the insurance companys do now.

If you think about it i will be putting an additional 200 bucks back in my pocket. so yes this will work for alot of people who live in this country.

[importpower99]

Why would a president sign try to get a bill passed allowing illegals to get health care? That is the question

[bastid]

Just so you know MOST of the countries who you seem to think don't eat ****ty foods. In fact eat more foods higher in fats then we do. look at 3/4 of of the euro countries. there cooking methods and prep methods have more fats to them as well as sugars.

On average they are thinner in Europe. They must have alien biological processes churning through that terrible food...

So you don't think getting a universal health care system would give man people the preventive care needed for the county to become healthy?
and be able to control all the variables within a certain time frame?

Preventative care rests solely on the patients being compliant with routine care. Until the government forces diabetics to receive HGBA1C lab tests, foot exams, diabetic eye exams, and insulin on a regular basis, they will not have any control over the variables.

[bastid]

look at it this way. if i was paying 300 bucks every pay check just for my health insurance. and they raise my taxes lets say another 100 bucks more just to pay for health care that lets everyone be a part of it and NOT turned down for a prexsiting( i.e smokeing, or back problems) like all of the the insurance companys do now.

If you think about it i will be putting an additional 200 bucks back in my pocket. so yes this will work for alot of people who live in this country.

This assumes that you will receive the same level of care through the ObamaCare plan than your current commercial plan. Also, if you are paying the government less, you can bet your bottom dollar that the government will pay the doctors less. If you pay the doctors less (who are already getting whacked on their reimbursements annually as costs increase), they will stop accepting government insurance. It's already happening at a lot of practices refusing Medicare patients.

[c0nfl1kt]

President Obama isn't writing this Bill, therefore it isn't his Bill. All he can do is sign one of MANY bills being proposed to the house of representatives to law or veto it. What you are proposing you sign this petition against is far from the truth. Also, there are MANY private insurance companies in Britain and Canada that provide additional health care on top of the basic care the government provides. There are huge industries that depend on how little a government plan would cover. Get the facts straight.

[CleanNeon98]

look at it this way. if i was paying 300 bucks every pay check just for my health insurance. and they raise my taxes lets say another 100 bucks more just to pay for health care that lets everyone be a part of it and NOT turned down for a prexsiting( i.e smokeing, or back problems) like all of the the insurance companys do now.

If you think about it i will be putting an additional 200 bucks back in my pocket. so yes this will work for alot of people who live in this country.
Don't see anything wrong with that, they are just trying to make sure you won't cost them more than you make them (they are out to make money too you know). Car insurance works the same way.

[Proven]

People that can't afford health care can goto the local county assistance office. You can apply for health care/dental or temporary health care if you can't afford it. I should know, I've done it once when I lost my job. also children in Pa get free health care up until their 18yrs old or done school depending on their families situation.


Obama Health Plan to Cover 12 Million Illegals

"On Friday, Democrats moved one step closer to giving free health insurance to the nation’s estimated 12 million illegal aliens when they successfully defeated a Republican-backed amendment, offered by Rep. Dean Heller, R-Nev., that would have prevented illegal aliens from receiving government-subsidized health care under the proposed plan backed by House Democrats and President Barack Obama."

This information can be found at http://www.newsmax.com/headlines/health_care_obama/2009/07/19/237484.html

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO PAY FOR A BORDER HOPPER'S HEALTHCARE? YES/NO? WHAT IN THE WORLD IS OBAMA THINKING! I DON'T WANT 50% OF MY PAYCHECK GOING TOWARDS THIS BILL. AND IF I DON'T AGREE WITH IT OR GET ANY WHAT SO EVER COVERAGE I'LL BE FINED $2500 YEARLY. WAKE UP PEOPLE THIS IS AMERICA NOT CANADA OR CHINA. DO YOU REALLY WANT BIG GOVERNMENT & BUREAUCRATS MAKING YOUR HEALTH CARE DECISIONS & DETERMANING WHATS GOOD FOR YOU?! DO YOU REALLY WANT PEOPLE LIKE ACORN HELPING OUT WITH THIS & DO YOU REALLY WANT THE GOVERNMENT KEEPING YOUR PERSONAL HEALTH INFORMATION ON FILE IN DC?!

Read the rest of the article, the first paragraph is twisting the truth into a fear baring statement like as if "Obama wants to give free health care to 12 million Illegal aliens" I'm guessing a lot of people still think Obama is a terrorist, or That he wasn't born in America. Those twists of the truth or straight up lies didn't work then but they will never stop unfortunately.

The un-twisted truth is - Illegally, Illegal aliens can get real drivers licenses and even SS cards Illegally so that they can "become" US citizens (an estimated 12million). Under Obama's plan ALL Americans will be included for this healthcare plan. This is something being worked on and something the democrats clearly wouldn't want (including Obama) as stated in the article. Also this isn't something wrong with the bill, its something wrong in a whole other department.

1. Is 50% of your paycheck going to pay for this bill? Where’s that written?

2. Are our medical records being store in DC? Where’s that written?

[Proven]

I'm thinking realistically, how will this program be funded, what will that do to people in the US? If you charge people more tax, they have less money to spend, guess our economy is taking another plunge.

You meanwhile seem to be siding with this plan and Obama not thinking about these things, just buying into the fairytale oasis that's being sold to you by the media.

Actually most of the media I've heard on this was negative and twisted truth like I showed above. I actually don't believe everything I hear.

Alot of Americans already pay for health insurance and pay way too much, or the company they work for has to hence why alot can't offer it. Health insurance cost have slowly raised solely do to greed of Hospitals, doctors, and of course insurance fraud. Doctors/Hospitals over testing just to bill your insurance company more. Now of course as shown people will say "sh** man I want all the tests possible just in case" yeah, of course, but SOMEONE has to pay for it (your insurance company, you pay say 12k a year for coverage and the doctor just ran 15k in tests in one week). The insurance companies raises rates to keep up (not to mention there’s also un-justifiable greed on the insurance companies part in cases)..

Do you see anything wrong with that? How would you fix it?

Obama's plan - Control health care himself because obviously insurance companies and Hospitals/doctors can't do it ethically/effeciantly. allow tesing ONLY for necessary needs (this is where the twisting came up with rationing, or being turned down for testing by making it sound like Obama wont allow all tests NEEDED to be done :roll:) Eventually health care coverage costs will lower once all the BS is gone. Right now, if more comes out of our checks so be it, but SOMETHING has to be done to try and fix it.

[poolmike]

look at it this way. if i was paying 300 bucks every pay check just for my health insurance. and they raise my taxes lets say another 100 bucks more just to pay for health care that lets everyone be a part of it and NOT turned down for a prexsiting( i.e smokeing, or back problems) like all of the the insurance companys do now.

If you think about it i will be putting an additional 200 bucks back in my pocket. so yes this will work for alot of people who live in this country.

What about me? I don't pay one penny into health insurance, now I will be forced to pay up. It is just plain wrong. I avoid doctors unless I feel like I am dying, then I pay up or work off the bill. Now I will be forced to pay for folks who abuse the system and go to the emergency room for a paper cut? :bs:

[ITSTOCK]

While I'm not going to get in to the "illegals coverage" aspect of this, largely because nobody in their right mind would include that straight up in this bill (they'll sneak that by in another bill as Obama said that illegal children still need and will get the coverage in multiple interviews that he has done), I do want to address two things...



Obama's plan - Control health care himself because obviously insurance companies and Hospitals/doctors can't do it ethically/effeciantly. allow tesing ONLY for necessary needs (this is where the twisting came up with rationing, or being turned down for testing by making it sound like Obama wont allow all tests NEEDED to be done :roll:) Eventually health care coverage costs will lower once all the BS is gone. Right now, if more comes out of our checks so be it, but SOMETHING has to be done to try and fix it.

I guess that you got tired of being fact checked in the other thread, so here, I'll repost it to make sure you're still doing your reading. You got through 100 pages and nothing struck you as unethical and inefficient?

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.pdf

Are you really that bat**** insane that you think spending a trillion dollars of taxpayer money is going to save money on health care? This is just fan****ingtastic. I can't believe that you really think this. I'm shocked and appalled. Jesus christ open your god damn eyes and READ THE ****ING BILL ALREADY!

President Obama isn't writing this Bill, therefore it isn't his Bill. All he can do is sign one of MANY bills being proposed to the house of representatives to law or veto it. What you are proposing you sign this petition against is far from the truth. Also, there are MANY private insurance companies in Britain and Canada that provide additional health care on top of the basic care the government provides. There are huge industries that depend on how little a government plan would cover. Get the facts straight.

Interesting. So the health care reform bill won't be Obama's bill, but the bills that came out of the Bush administration were all Bush's?

And yes, you are absolutely right about the government not covering everything in other countries. The bills purposed here also have annual limitations, and different tiers each with their own individual and family limitations (for example, $5,000 individual, $10,000 family). Also, IF the bill is passed, I will be keeping my private health insurance. However, in 5 years, when all of the insurance companies have to strictly abide by the government rules (that's in the bill too), I will probably end up switching to the ****ty government ran health care since my private is going to be the same. You know, they have to keep things competitive so the private industry could never be able to run better. Or perhaps, GASP, the government gives themselves advantages that the private industry does not have! Oh, they wouldn't do that. Would they?

You can read about all of this in the above link to HR 3200.

[jpalamar]

if you think that then how come other countries can do it and yet still drive down there health care? So based on what you just said prescriptions are just supply and demand? so they keep increasing the price for that reason?
So that gives the hospital the right to charge somebody 25 bucks for an aspirin? This is the best and i love this. if you had to pay a doctors or hospital bill out of pocket they would charge 40% to 50% more Then that of a bill sent to someones health care provider. and this is a known fact and i have seen many of my hospital/doctors bills when i having issues with my back. and the difference was amazing at what i would have had to pay if i didn't have insurance.

So tell me how is this fair?

That is business. You complain about paying $25 for Aspirin when we will go to the bar and pay $4 a beer. $100+ for Jordins. Only when it is something you don't want to pay for is there a problem with the system...

Bottom line, the governmant cannot step in and tell us how to run business. If they keep stepping in, eventually they will run everything. Once they start, it just snow balls.

[jpalamar]

What about me? I don't pay one penny into health insurance, now I will be forced to pay up. It is just plain wrong. I avoid doctors unless I feel like I am dying, then I pay up or work off the bill. Now I will be forced to pay for folks who abuse the system and go to the emergency room for a paper cut? :bs:

There are a few good people out their that pay their bills, but what will you do if you slip and break your leg. You honestly think you can cover that bill? Thats the problem. 99% of the time people can pay the bill, but that one big injury you have in your life will cripple you.

[sleepersatty99]

That is business. You complain about paying $25 for Aspirin when we will go to the bar and pay $4 a beer. $100+ for Jordins. Only when it is something you don't want to pay for is there a problem with the system...

Bottom line, the governmant cannot step in and tell us how to run business. If they keep stepping in, eventually they will run everything. Once they start, it just snow balls.

yeah well i dont pay 4 bucks for and 100 bucks for jordins cause i think thats ****ing joke.

and back on the aspirin thing. they want to charge ME that. but not the insurance company? how is that fair?

PoolMike.... If you had a serious injury that you would need surgery im pretty sure you wouldnt be able to pay out of pocket for that. then you in the hole like so many others out there.

[jpalamar]

PoolMike.... If you had a serious injury that you would need surgery im pretty sure you wouldnt be able to pay out of pocket for that. then you in the hole like so many others out there.

Hence why medical stuff costs so much, to make up the diffrence on the non insured not being able to pay.

[poolmike]

and back on the aspirin thing. they want to charge ME that. but not the insurance company? how is that fair?

PoolMike.... If you had a serious injury that you would need surgery im pretty sure you wouldnt be able to pay out of pocket for that. then you in the hole like so many others out there.

How is my injury and debt anyone else's business or problem? It isn't. I want to pay my own way in life, unfortunately, every time I get ahead, I seem to get more taken by local, state, and federal gov't.

[sleepersatty99]

Hence why medical stuff costs so much, to make up the diffrence on the non insured not being able to pay.

so by haveing a universal health plan this would not be a problem in anyones case. so you would agree with me then the cost of things would go down?

[sleepersatty99]

How is my injury and debt anyone else's business or problem? It isn't. I want to pay my own way in life, unfortunately, every time I get ahead, I seem to get more taken by local, state, and federal gov't.

because we all have to make it up if people dont pay. if you dont pay that cost gets passed down to us by paying higher cost on things like asprin and bandages.

Yes im all for people paying for the things on there own.

[Elliott18t]

what? why am i paying because someone else didnt?

[jpalamar]

so by haveing a universal health plan this would not be a problem in anyones case. so you would agree with me then the cost of things would go down?

No. Costs will go up for healthy people because we are coving for people who smoke, drink, and eat unhealthy. Also not to mention all the illegials that will be added to the bunch. The are typically lower class and can't live healthy lifestyles. I'm sure their medical costs would be high if they had the choice.

[sleepersatty99]

but you already pay there cost now. because they dint pay or if they have insurance your prem on your insurance is a factor to that already. they way the insurance company formulate what your company's cost of health insurance is they take what your company paid out for the use of the insurance. so even though you might not drink or smoke or do anything else that impairs your health in anyway (cause you seem like you live a very very healthy life style. even though you breath this ****ty smog that we call air). but some of your co works do. So your already paying for them.

And if you think this not true then i have the paper work to show you how they come up with that number.

[jpalamar]

but you already pay there cost now. because they dint pay or if they have insurance your prem on your insurance is a factor to that already. they way the insurance company formulate what your company's cost of health insurance is they take what your company paid out for the use of the insurance. so even though you might not drink or smoke or do anything else that impairs your health in anyway (cause you seem like you live a very very healthy life style. even though you breath this ****ty smog that we call air). but some of your co works do. So your already paying for them.

And if you think this not true then i have the paper work to show you how they come up with that number.

I do belive that part of my premium is paying for everyone else. But I also pay a lower rate then say if I smoked. Why should I have to pay the median rate when I'm healthy. I'm not saying I'm a health fanatic but I'm in shape, social drink, and odn't smoke. EX. Simulated insurance quote with Aetna. I was about $160 a month. My g/f with the same plan, but with a pre-existing condition is $240 a month. I think it is fair because her risk of need is higher. How fair would it be if I paid $200 a month just like her?

Aside from ti being fair ot not, how will the governemnt fund it. They are already in debt. We are in a recession so there are too many people not working to even tax. This will be like social security. It will work until the money runs out. Then everyone who releys on it is screwed.

[poolmike]

because we all have to make it up if people dont pay. if you dont pay that cost gets passed down to us by paying higher cost on things like asprin and bandages.

Yes im all for people paying for the things on there own.

Once again, if you decide to pay high premiums, that is your problem and no one else's. If you do so without protesting it, it is your problem. I pay my own way in life, in this 'free' country. If you blindly throw money at an insurance company for health care, that will turn you down for treatments of some kind....you are just punishing yourself.

[jpalamar]

Once again, if you decide to pay high premiums, that is your problem and no one else's. If you do so without protesting it, it is your problem. I pay my own way in life, in this 'free' country. If you blindly throw money at an insurance company for health care, that will turn you down for treatments of some kind....you are just punishing yourself.

You won't pay your own way if some unforceen accident or medical condition occurs. You will be one of the poeple that gets treated for free and my insurance premium goes up because the hospital jacks their prices up to cover their loss from your treatment.

[SheaButter]

I think that one thing that every person has posted in here hasnt thought of yet is the Doctors or shall I say the ones that have recently become and those that may become Dr. So you are just now becoming a Dr or want to in the near future. You go to school and pay close to $200,000 for your education now the government wants to change the health care system. What does this do to your paycheck. The pay of Dr is going to go down tremendously. So there for most of these dr wont be able to pay their medical student loans off. At what they get paid now it takes them a very long time to pay off their debt. SO think about it the quality of our future dr's is gonna be horrible why because they are not going to get paid what they currently are getting paid. The amount of great dr's and people who want to become Dr's are going to drop. Our health care system will self destruct if this goes through.
Who would want to become a dr go through all the schooling, be put into debt up to ur elbows and become a dr and make crap money for doing it. Medical school is not going to get any cheaper unless this super duper plan has something in there stating this. Sure this may help people that cant afford healthcare but its going to kill our quality of healthcare that we provide. I believe this needs to be stopped ASAP or we will all face a Tyrant of a leader conforming this country to socialism, and on our way to communism. We need to band together as a nation and stop obama from passing every thing he puts up this guy is running america in debt that not only will our children be paying off our grandchildren will be paying for. We should give bigger tax breaks to smaller businesses, this will in turn drive unemployment down bc small businesses will have the cash to hire people and we will slowly but surely rebound.

Consider this petition signed

[poolmike]

You won't pay your own way if some unforceen accident or medical condition occurs. You will be one of the poeple that gets treated for free and my insurance premium goes up because the hospital jacks their prices up to cover their loss from your treatment.

BULLSHHH! If I land in the hospital today, I am the only one responsible for my debt! Your insurance is not affected at all. Hospitals are businesses, they will provide me with a payment plan, trust me, I have been through it.

The gov't is what drives up the cost of everything we do through regulations, etc. Gov't is the main cause of expensive health insurance and doctor visits, with the helpful hand of lawyers. What makes anyone think that gov't is going to step in and 'fix' the 'problem' that is created?

[jpalamar]

BULLSHHH! If I land in the hospital today, I am the only one responsible for my debt! Your insurance is not affected at all. Hospitals are businesses, they will provide me with a payment plan, trust me, I have been through it.

Hospitals aren't banks...

[sleepersatty99]

I think that one thing that every person has posted in here hasnt thought of yet is the Doctors or shall I say the ones that have recently become and those that may become Dr. So you are just now becoming a Dr or want to in the near future. You go to school and pay close to $200,000 for your education now the government wants to change the health care system. What does this do to your paycheck. The pay of Dr is going to go down tremendously. So there for most of these dr wont be able to pay their medical student loans off. At what they get paid now it takes them a very long time to pay off their debt. SO think about it the quality of our future dr's is gonna be horrible why because they are not going to get paid what they currently are getting paid. The amount of great dr's and people who want to become Dr's are going to drop. Our health care system will self destruct if this goes through.
Who would want to become a dr go through all the schooling, be put into debt up to ur elbows and become a dr and make crap money for doing it. Medical school is not going to get any cheaper unless this super duper plan has something in there stating this. Sure this may help people that cant afford healthcare but its going to kill our quality of healthcare that we provide. I believe this needs to be stopped ASAP or we will all face a Tyrant of a leader conforming this country to socialism, and on our way to communism. We need to band together as a nation and stop obama from passing every thing he puts up this guy is running america in debt that not only will our children be paying off our grandchildren will be paying for. We should give bigger tax breaks to smaller businesses, this will in turn drive unemployment down bc small businesses will have the cash to hire people and we will slowly but surely rebound.

Consider this petition signed


Thats one problem i have with alot of doctor's is that all they care about is there paycheck. not the well being of there patient. and in the last 20 years more and more doc's care about the money. to me that shows greed on there part. people should want to become doctors cause they care about other people not caues its the pay check they care about.

[Nors]

Its sad to see many people arguing against something thats in there best interest/well being because of corporate propaganda.

[Proven]

What about me? I don't pay one penny into health insurance, now I will be forced to pay up. It is just plain wrong. I avoid doctors unless I feel like I am dying, then I pay up or work off the bill. Now I will be forced to pay for folks who abuse the system and go to the emergency room for a paper cut? :bs:

The paper cut would be turned down for treatment under Obama's plan That falls into what everyone is hearing about "rationing"

Now, that paper cut would get an x-ray, stitches, a nights stay in the hospitol, and a follow up visit.

[jpalamar]

Its sad to see many people arguing against something thats in there best interest/well being because of corporate propaganda.

Not arguing, debating.:-p

[jpalamar]

Thats one problem i have with alot of doctor's is that all they care about is there paycheck. not the well being of there patient. and in the last 20 years more and more doc's care about the money. to me that shows greed on there part. people should want to become doctors cause they care about other people not caues its the pay check they care about.

They care about money. Doesn't everyone? Shouldn't someone who does a job that few can and spends how much on the education(investment) and want to make $ on their invenstment. I don't see people complaining about every other industry that is making money. Why aren't they being reformed?

[Scapegoat]

Lesson on how to change the world:

Step 1: Turn off your computer. No one ever changed the world by posting threads on internet forums, fyi.

incorrect

[sleepersatty99]

They care about money. Doesn't everyone? Shouldn't someone who does a job that few can and spends how much on the education(investment) and want to make $ on their invenstment. I don't see people complaining about every other industry that is making money. Why aren't they being reformed?

well the govt is stepping up to big oil company's and they stepped in to save the auto industry didn't they?



Thank god we are all not at a bar or somewhere drinking a few beers and having this conversation. lol

[Proven]

While I'm not going to get in to the "illegals coverage" aspect of this, largely because nobody in their right mind would include that straight up in this bill (they'll sneak that by in another bill as Obama said that illegal children still need and will get the coverage in multiple interviews that he has done), I do want to address two things...

I guess you would let children die/ get sick as hell just because they are from another country? If you went over seas with your child (covered free here in US) and they got hit by a car should that country turn down your childs care because they arent a citizen? I'd can't wait to hear your answer for this

I guess that you got tired of being fact checked in the other thread, so here, I'll repost it to make sure you're still doing your reading. You got through 100 pages and nothing struck you as unethical and inefficient?

When was I Fact checked? tired? No, I'm reading the Bill (slowly yes) and have yet to find anything un-ethical. Can you cut and paste what section/s you feel are un-ethical and we can go from there?.

Are you really that bat**** insane that you think spending a trillion dollars of taxpayer money is going to save money on health care? This is just fan****ingtastic. I can't believe that you really think this. I'm shocked and appalled. Jesus christ open your god damn eyes and READ THE ****ING BILL ALREADY!

Did you get hype about trillions be spent to find weapons of mass distruction, trillions spent investigating gun crimes?, or just get hype when its something that helps people?

Trillions are allready being spent, but by businesses and insurance companies- Doctors over examine to get more money, Insurance companies pay for it, insurance companies then raise their costs to make up for it, Companies/businesses/public now can't afford coverage because of the rising costs (all fueled by greed). Continueing in this direction the only people that will be able to have health coverage is the very wealthy.

How do you fix it? STOP doctors from being able to over examine for greed, set limits on what insurance companies can charge (stop their greed), get everyone coverage rather then the lucky ones who work for a company that can affrod it.

Sounds nothing but ethical to me. .

Don't think I don't understand why your hype. I'm feeling it on this side to. Lets try to keep it civil though. Turns out people all dont think the same.

[Proven]

I think that one thing that every person has posted in here hasnt thought of yet is the Doctors or shall I say the ones that have recently become and those that may become Dr. So you are just now becoming a Dr or want to in the near future. You go to school and pay close to $200,000 for your education now the government wants to change the health care system. What does this do to your paycheck. The pay of Dr is going to go down tremendously. So there for most of these dr wont be able to pay their medical student loans off. At what they get paid now it takes them a very long time to pay off their debt. SO think about it the quality of our future dr's is gonna be horrible why because they are not going to get paid what they currently are getting paid. The amount of great dr's and people who want to become Dr's are going to drop. Our health care system will self destruct if this goes through.
Who would want to become a dr go through all the schooling, be put into debt up to ur elbows and become a dr and make crap money for doing it. Medical school is not going to get any cheaper unless this super duper plan has something in there stating this. Sure this may help people that cant afford healthcare but its going to kill our quality of healthcare that we provide. I believe this needs to be stopped ASAP or we will all face a Tyrant of a leader conforming this country to socialism, and on our way to communism. We need to band together as a nation and stop obama from passing every thing he puts up this guy is running america in debt that not only will our children be paying off our grandchildren will be paying for. We should give bigger tax breaks to smaller businesses, this will in turn drive unemployment down bc small businesses will have the cash to hire people and we will slowly but surely rebound.

Consider this petition signed

Why are doctors salaries going down? Have you thought of that? ITS BECAUSE OF THE CURRENT INSURANCE SET UP AND YOU SIGNED TO KEEP IT THAT WAY..

I'll use this once again -

Doctors/hospitals over examine to get more money for themselves. Insurance companies then have to raise their costs to make up for this. Less people end up with insurance or limited insurance because of this.

Less people can now go to the doctor/hospital, which in turn leads to Hospitals lowering the salaries of doctors (and leads to more over examining to build profts).

If anything, doctor’s salaries will go back up and stay up with this plan because of the millions of more people that can now go visit them. YES, the doctors will have higher salaries, AND yes it will cap out eventualy.. But it will still be a very impressive salary and plenty to pay for school, a boat, big house, and hey, they will also have the new health coverage..

I hope you considered this before signing the petition.

[OutlawzPrez]

Who else signed this?

[bastid]

Its sad to see many people arguing against something thats in there best interest/well being because of corporate propaganda.

Can you provide any substance behind this reply?

[OutToWinPAHC]

Very true. If people just cut back wasteful spending then they could prolly afford health insurance. But they pay for car payments, cable, high speed internet, ps3's, hookers etc.

Did you sign this yet?

Whoa dude I have only gotten a hooker once

[OutlawzPrez]

lmao lol

[bastid]

Did you get hype about trillions be spent to find weapons of mass distruction, trillions spent investigating gun crimes?, or just get hype when its something that helps people?

Ahhh, wonderful. The thread has evolved to the proverbial "The Bush administration made some bad decisions therefore we are allowed to, also" argument. Classy.

Doctors over examine to get more money, Insurance companies pay for it, insurance companies then raise their costs to make up for it, Companies/businesses/public now can't afford coverage because of the rising costs (all fueled by greed). Continueing in this direction the only people that will be able to have health coverage is the very wealthy.

Largely this isn't the case. Sure there are a few bad eggs, but mostly physicians over test because they are scared ****less of being sued for medical malpractice if they don't rule out certain diagnoses, and they don't have access to a patient-centric health record (therefore, creating duplicate and often unnecessary test orders).

[Nors]

Can you provide any substance behind this reply?

Not really, seems like you guys are exhausting all the points that can be discussed. But to elaborate on my comment a bit: The corporate propaganda comment is directed to the commercials that compare government run healthcare to the DMV and post office, these commercials are funded in part by phamracuetical companies. Also, lobbying by pharma companies is up 41% compared to last year (according to an online article). And the part about well being, if you do not have healthcare than this bill is in your best interest (my opinion).

[OutlawzPrez]

As of yesterday I remember this being in the 800,000's. As of today there are over 900,000 signatures. And this doesn't count the other petitions going on aswell.

Join the other 905080 people who have signed this petition already!
Please take a minute to sign this petition keeping Government control OUT of healthcare.
http://www.freeourhealthcarenow.com/

[bastid]

Not really, seems like you guys are exhausting all the points that can be discussed. But to elaborate on my comment a bit: The corporate propaganda comment is directed to the commercials that compare government run healthcare to the DMV and post office, these commercials are funded in part by phamracuetical companies. Also, lobbying by pharma companies is up 41% compared to last year (according to an online article). And the part about well being, if you do not have healthcare than this bill is in your best interest (my opinion).

Well put. And of course it's in their best interest. They are paying a discount rate and are partially subsidized by the "upper-middle class and above." Money for nothing.

[Proven]

Ahhh, wonderful. The thread has evolved to the proverbial "The Bush administration made some bad decisions therefore we are allowed to, also" argument. Classy.

Never even mentioned Bush, I mentioned something that happened/s in Government that I didn't see the OP post a petition for. Was wonder how he felt about the other trillions that get spent that helped no one compaired to this bill that will help US citizens more directly (they're United when going to war but not directly taking care of one another).. Classy of you to try and twist it though :thumbup:


Largely this isn't the case. Sure there are a few bad eggs, but mostly physicians over test because they are scared ****less of being sued for medical malpractice if they don't rule out certain diagnoses, and they don't have access to a patient-centric health record (therefore, creating duplicate and often unnecessary test orders).

Fair enough, and also something Obama is trying to fix with this bill like digital records rather then paper to be more efficient. Of course everyone has an issue with digital records because that would save time, money, and help prevent malpractice/confusion. The issue people have is they don't want their records on digital file.. I think the benifits of the plan well out weight the concern of someone worrying that someone will find out they have allergies or to be fair worse conditions



...............................

[Proven]

Well put. And of course it's in their best interest. They are paying a discount rate and are partially subsidized by the "upper-middle class and above." Money for nothing.

'BASTID" cause dam you are one (haha just messin bro, serioulsy). Like I mentioned above I think its dam silly that the wealthy (and those that admire them) have no issue spending trillions going to war but don't want to spend a dime to help this countries citizens. Trillions have also been spent to help other countries in need (war, floods, Aid in general, etc etc.) but when a trillions are spent here for US citizens the world turns upside down.

(Don't think for a second though I think its right for a US citizen to free load, try NOT to work, and servive off the wealthy.. I route for the Citizen that actualy tries and feel they should be taking care of by its country)

[Proven]

Read the rest of the article, the first paragraph is twisting the truth into a fear baring statement like as if "Obama wants to give free health care to 12 million Illegal aliens" I'm guessing a lot of people still think Obama is a terrorist, or That he wasn't born in America. Those twists of the truth or straight up lies didn't work then but they will never stop unfortunately.

The un-twisted truth is - Illegally, Illegal aliens can get real drivers licenses and even SS cards Illegally so that they can "become" US citizens (an estimated 12million). Under Obama's plan ALL Americans will be included for this healthcare plan. This is something being worked on and something the democrats clearly wouldn't want (including Obama) as stated in the article. Also this isn't something wrong with the bill, its something wrong in a whole other department.

1. Is 50% of your paycheck going to pay for this bill (like you advertised)? Where’s that written?

2. Are our medical records being store in DC (like you advertised)? Where’s that written?

I wanted to repost this for the OP to get the answer to my Qs's... Maybe you can sway me if you can prove your not hyping and twisting the truth to get people to sign something you personally believe.

[Z31Fanatic]

I signed the petition and as someone who lived in an ex-communist country for 13 years I am truly shocked that there is people in america who think like Proven and Sleepersatty.

[OutlawzPrez]

President-elect Barack Obama said he wants the federal government to invest in electronic health records so all medical records are digitized within five years.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1R2ADFA_enUS338&q=medical+records+being+stored+by+the+gov+of+obama +medical%3F&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

[bastid]

Never even mentioned Bush, I mentioned something that happened/s in Government that I didn't see the OP post a petition for. Was wonder how he felt about the other trillions that get spent that helped no one compaired to this bill that will help US citizens more directly (they're United when going to war but not directly taking care of one another).. Classy of you to try and twist it though

True, I'll give you that. It is a slippery slope argument that many on the left use as a "Too bad, you guys ****ed up the country, so we'll get back at you by ****ing it up even worse." I don't think the freedoms that our country fights for necessarily include the freedom to be a slack ass and receive handouts for doing so. I'm generalizing, and realize there are a subset of folks who are actually trying to better themselves and using this as a form of assistance in the meantime.

Fair enough, and also something Obama is trying to fix with this bill like digital records rather then paper to be more efficient. Of course everyone has an issue with digital records because that would save time, money, and help prevent malpractice/confusion. The issue people have is they don't want their records on digital file.. I think the benifits of the plan well out weight the concern of someone worrying that someone will find out they have allergies or to be fair worse conditions

One of the last concerns of physicians regarding electronic health records is that their charts will somehow be vulnerable to security breeches. It is far more difficult to break into a physician's office, grab a backup disc with a proprietary database encrypted using various algorithms than it is to run in and take a patient chart. Most of the resistance is the fear of change.

[bastid]

...............................

'BASTID" cause dam you are one (haha just messin bro, serioulsy). Like I mentioned above I think its dam silly that the wealthy (and those that admire them) have no issue spending trillions going to war but don't want to spend a dime to help this countries citizens. Trillions have also been spent to help other countries in need (war, floods, Aid in general, etc etc.) but when a trillions are spent here for US citizens the world turns upside down.

(Don't think for a second though I think its right for a US citizen to free load, try NOT to work, and servive off the wealthy.. I route for the Citizen that actualy tries and feel they should be taking care of by its country)

Yes, hence the screenname :)

The folks who are "spending Trillions" on war aren't the same ones who will be funding healthcare.

I like that we provide countries assistance when they need it, however I oppose it in times like these where we can't even get our own **** together.

The programs we have in place unfortunately promote freeloading due to not setting the bar high enough to receive the assistance provided.

[c0nfl1kt]

While I'm not going to get in to the "illegals coverage" aspect of this, largely because nobody in their right mind would include that straight up in this bill (they'll sneak that by in another bill as Obama said that illegal children still need and will get the coverage in multiple interviews that he has done), I do want to address two things...



I guess that you got tired of being fact checked in the other thread, so here, I'll repost it to make sure you're still doing your reading. You got through 100 pages and nothing struck you as unethical and inefficient?

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.pdf

Are you really that bat**** insane that you think spending a trillion dollars of taxpayer money is going to save money on health care? This is just fan****ingtastic. I can't believe that you really think this. I'm shocked and appalled. Jesus christ open your god damn eyes and READ THE ****ING BILL ALREADY!



Interesting. So the health care reform bill won't be Obama's bill, but the bills that came out of the Bush administration were all Bush's?

And yes, you are absolutely right about the government not covering everything in other countries. The bills purposed here also have annual limitations, and different tiers each with their own individual and family limitations (for example, $5,000 individual, $10,000 family). Also, IF the bill is passed, I will be keeping my private health insurance. However, in 5 years, when all of the insurance companies have to strictly abide by the government rules (that's in the bill too), I will probably end up switching to the ****ty government ran health care since my private is going to be the same. You know, they have to keep things competitive so the private industry could never be able to run better. Or perhaps, GASP, the government gives themselves advantages that the private industry does not have! Oh, they wouldn't do that. Would they?

You can read about all of this in the above link to HR 3200.

Saying that this is Obama's bill is like saying that the Apollo missions(including the three deaths and one near fatal accident) were all Kennedy's missions. Get real.

Pretty soon all you ultra orthodox conservatives are going to say that the governments of the world should stay out of the markets and don't oversee the crooked ways of Wall Street. I, for one, am thankful that back in the 1930's the government appointed a very bright, young man by the name of John Kenneth Galbraith to initiate very extensive and informative hearings about the financial "big wigs".

[ITSTOCK]

Saying that this is Obama's bill is like saying that the Apollo missions(including the three deaths and one near fatal accident) were all Kennedy's missions. Get real.

Pretty soon all you ultra orthodox conservatives are going to say that the governments of the world should stay out of the markets and don't oversee the crooked ways of Wall Street. I, for one, am thankful that back in the 1930's the government appointed a very bright, young man by the name of John Kenneth Galbraith to initiate very extensive and informative hearings about the financial "big wigs".

Are you talking about the economist liberal author from Canada (that my annoying liberal high school social studies teacher used to rave about)? Wasn't he appointed to a government position under Kennedy also? That guys views are scarily similar to that of North Korea. Shed some light.

As to being Obama's bill, were the Patriot Bill and No Children left behind Bush's bills?

If that Patriot Act isn't considered Bush's bill, I'll agree with you. Also, if that is the case, you will have to recognize the fact that congress approved of Operation Iraqi Freedom, so that "war" can't be considered Bush's war either. And then, if you accept that based on your assessment, the economic downfall definitely can't be attributed to Bush. Or how about the hundreds of billions of dollars that passed through at the end of the term? That's not Bush's fault either for wasting all of that money (unfortunately Obama wasted the same). Damn, Bush didn't do ANYTHING wrong at that rate!

[c0nfl1kt]

Umm, are you talking about the economic liberal author from Canada? Wasn't he appointed to a government position under Kennedy? My history isn't the greatest, I'll admit it, but Kennedy was a President in the 1960's.

Shed some light.

As to being Obama's bill, were the Patriot Bill and No Children left behind Bush's bills?

No, they were not, but they were heavily influenced by him and written after his inquiry and advise. There is a difference between saying it's someone's bill(written by said individual) and influencing I bill.

I will not contest that whatever comes out of congress will be one of President Obama's legacies, but we are not even sure which bill will be voted on, so we can't even disagree on something that isn't solid. There is a bill that will completely get rid of the public option altogether, and that is the one that the House has agreed to vote on after recess. Of course, whatever bill gets through the House will be picked, prodded, and modded to death by the Senators.

The Pecora Investigation is the name commonly used to describe the inquiry begun on March 4, 1932 by the United States Senate Committee on Banking and Currency to investigate the causes of the Wall Street Crash of 1929. The name refers to the fourth and final chief counsel for the investigation, Ferdinand Pecora. The leading interrogator in said hearing was the gentleman who I mentioned in my previous post.

[656of1000]

After reading everyone's responses to the debate, I've noticed a common theme emerging. For the people who are signing the petition, they seem to feel (not everyone, mind you) that once this health care plan is implemented, the government will all of a sudden rule everything, and the US will become hardcore communist. Again, not everyone who is signing the petition is thinking that, but I've gotten the vibe from a few. And it's not like that's exactly what they are saying, but (again) that's just a generalization.

Why do some people think this is a stepping stone to the government trying to take over everything? (I'm not arguing, I truly want to know what information these people have that is leading them to these conclusions.)

Why is it seemingly unfeasible to think the government actually has the general population in its best interests?

Why would anyone believe the government is hell bent on turning into socialists?

If I believed the government was going socialist, it would take WAY more than a universal healthcare plan to convince me of that.

I would like to point out that Canada, and the UK (and others with universal healthcare) are not socialist nations.

My bottom line beliefs are:
I don't believe that other nations have quite the baby boomer population we have, and that some other nations are generally healthier than we are.
I believe that other nations' universal health plans are tailor made to the population of those nations.
I don't believe our nation is a good canidate for a universal healthcare plan.
I believe our current plan is very flawed.
I believe the cause of our healthcare problem is plain greed (duh!).
I believe the solution is to somehow curb this greed, without just taking over the system, however
I believe that if the new healthcare plan is implemented, we aren't going to snowball into a socialist nation.
(I believe our government has enough sense to keep that from happening.)

I don't think this healthcare plan is what we need, but if it happened, I'm sure we would adapt, and I'm sure we aren't going socialist.

My views would seem to contradict some poeples views. That is because some people are extremists; I sit on the fence. Too many people are suaded by propaganda- by what they hear on TV or from other people (usually other extremists). It's not wrong to believe what you want. (that's what makes America great.) It's my hope that people make truly educated decisions, in either way.

I bet some people think I don't know what I'm talking about; that I don't know all the facts. You could be right, but there's no need to point it out. Be more civil than that. Some people are just barking out "you're wrong! You're wrong! " and "how can you possibly think that!" There is no right or wrong answer here, people. How can there be a right or wrong when there is no answer at all?

Just know this: You can't please all the people all the time.


Take all that with a grain of salt- I worked 13 hours today:roll:.

[ITSTOCK]

I, for one, didn't and won't sign the petition. However, based on your response, the only reply that I can give you is this;

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.3200:


After reading everyone's responses to the debate, I've noticed a common theme emerging. For the people who are signing the petition, they seem to feel (not everyone, mind you) that once this health care plan is implemented, the government will all of a sudden rule everything, and the US will become hardcore communist. Again, not everyone who is signing the petition is thinking that, but I've gotten the vibe from a few. And it's not like that's exactly what they are saying, but (again) that's just a generalization.

Why do some people think this is a stepping stone to the government trying to take over everything? (I'm not arguing, I truly want to know what information these people have that is leading them to these conclusions.)

Why is it seemingly unfeasible to think the government actually has the general population in its best interests?

Why would anyone believe the government is hell bent on turning into socialists?

If I believed the government was going socialist, it would take WAY more than a universal healthcare plan to convince me of that.

I would like to point out that Canada, and the UK (and others with universal healthcare) are not socialist nations.

My bottom line beliefs are:
I don't believe that other nations have quite the baby boomer population we have, and that some other nations are generally healthier than we are.
I believe that other nations' universal health plans are tailor made to the population of those nations.
I don't believe our nation is a good canidate for a universal healthcare plan.
I believe our current plan is very flawed.
I believe the cause of our healthcare problem is plain greed (duh!).
I believe the solution is to somehow curb this greed, without just taking over the system, however
I believe that if the new healthcare plan is implemented, we aren't going to snowball into a socialist nation.
(I believe our government has enough sense to keep that from happening.)

I don't think this healthcare plan is what we need, but if it happened, I'm sure we would adapt, and I'm sure we aren't going socialist.

My views would seem to contradict some poeples views. That is because some people are extremists; I sit on the fence. Too many people are suaded by propaganda- by what they hear on TV or from other people (usually other extremists). It's not wrong to believe what you want. (that's what makes America great.) It's my hope that people make truly educated decisions, in either way.

I bet some people think I don't know what I'm talking about; that I don't know all the facts. You could be right, but there's no need to point it out. Be more civil than that. Some people are just barking out "you're wrong! You're wrong! " and "how can you possibly think that!" There is no right or wrong answer here, people. How can there be a right or wrong when there is no answer at all?

Just know this: You can't please all the people all the time.


Take all that with a grain of salt- I worked 13 hours today:roll:.

And I don't remember the last time that I worked less than 13 hours a day.

[c0nfl1kt]

^Great post(err, guy above him). I don't agree with you on some things, but very informative and honest.

[ITSTOCK]

^Great post(err, guy above him). I don't agree with you on some things, but very informative and honest.

BTW, I'm pro choice (personally pro-life, but until we can get easier adoption guidelines, I can't argue with ones choice to abort, I agree with Obama's stance 100% on this subject, easier adoption, pro choice) and against any form of organized religion. Don't group me with orthodox Republicans. I hate bible thumpers as much as I hate people who think obama is their Messiah.

[c0nfl1kt]

BTW, I'm pro choice (personally pro-life, but until we can get easier adoption guidelines, I can't argue with ones choice to abort) and against any form of organized religion. Don't group me with orthodox Republicans. I hate bible thumpers as much as I hate people who think obama is their Messiah.

Oh, no, I wasn't grouping you with anyone. I won't say any names in fear of this turning into a giant flame war and getting locked, but they know who I was referring to. I personally would like to see the government do something about health care. I do not have any because it's too expensive. Even while my company covering 30% I would still have to pay $200 a month for just basic hospital visits. I rarely get sick, but I would still like to have that piece of mind. The only thing that worries me is that the attitude the government is taking towards this huge reform is like the attitude 1990 America took towards credit. Just keep spending and pay it back later. That scares me HUGELY.

[656of1000]

BTW, I'm pro choice (personally pro-life, but until we can get easier adoption guidelines, I can't argue with ones choice to abort, I agree with Obama's stance 100% on this subject, easier adoption, pro choice) and against any form of organized religion. Don't group me with orthodox Republicans. I hate bible thumpers as much as I hate people who think obama is their Messiah.

Actually, I'm very much the same way. I guess a very 'on the fence', 'think for yourself' kind of way. I guess I'm a pretty conservative Democrat. I did vote for Obama, though.

[ITSTOCK]

Oh, no, I wasn't grouping you with anyone. I won't say any names in fear of this turning into a giant flame war and getting locked, but they know who I was referring to. I personally would like to see the government do something about health care. I do not have any because it's too expensive. Even while my company covering 30% I would still have to pay $200 a month for just basic hospital visits. I rarely get sick, but I would still like to have that piece of mind. The only thing that worries me is that the attitude the government is taking towards this huge reform is like the attitude 1990 America took towards credit. Just keep spending and pay it back later. That scares me HUGELY.

I don't know what you do for a living, but I am an electrical contractor. My health care (medical+dental) is through Aetna, in which I pay $144/month. It gets raised about $6 every other month in the past 4 years. Also, NOT including bi-annual checkups for both medical and dental, my health insurance has saved me approximately $9300 (obviously a desk jockey doesn't have to worry about his finger chopped off on the job, worry about infection, have root canals, get an unfortunate case of shingles, etc, well, okay, all of the above could happen to anyone, my money was well paid though).

Being an Electrical Contractor, I am self-employed. IF I go the government route, I will be subject to their terms. IF I keep my private health insurance (which I will, for at least 5 years, because under the current bill, my private insurance will have to abide by gov't guidelines to make it more competitive within 5 years), I will know exactly what I am getting in a timely manner.

If you recognize the credit, and more importantly, the mortgage crisis and why it happened, why do you support the universal health care? It just makes no sense to me. I, for one, and I speak for many, would LOVE it if my private health insurance stopped rising by $6 every other month. On the flip side, with all of the medical litigation's and insurance going on, I understand it.

TORT REFORM would save us more than this or any other government program offers, but they won't say it. Look at their degrees.

[ITSTOCK]

Actually, I'm very much the same way. I guess a very 'on the fence', 'think for yourself' kind of way. I guess I'm a pretty conservative Democrat. I did vote for Obama, though.

If you are such a think for yourself, common sense kind of person, why side with GOVERNMENT ran health care? I posted the bill that obama wants passed, and it's easy to see that this isn't what is going to thappen.

[656of1000]

If you are such a think for yourself, common sense kind of person, why side with GOVERNMENT ran health care? I posted the bill that obama wants passed, and it's easy to see that this isn't what is going to thappen.
I don't think this healthcare plan is what we need.
I'm not supporting gov't ran healthcare. I am supporting gov't fixed healthcare, but also saying that I'm not going to run for the hills if this thing goes through.

[Proven]

After reading everyone's responses to the debate, I've noticed a common theme emerging. For the people who are signing the petition, they seem to feel (not everyone, mind you) that once this health care plan is implemented, the government will all of a sudden rule everything, and the US will become hardcore communist. Again, not everyone who is signing the petition is thinking that, but I've gotten the vibe from a few. And it's not like that's exactly what they are saying, but (again) that's just a generalization.

Why do some people think this is a stepping stone to the government trying to take over everything? (I'm not arguing, I truly want to know what information these people have that is leading them to these conclusions.)

Why is it seemingly unfeasible to think the government actually has the general population in its best interests?

Why would anyone believe the government is hell bent on turning into socialists?

If I believed the government was going socialist, it would take WAY more than a universal healthcare plan to convince me of that.

I would like to point out that Canada, and the UK (and others with universal healthcare) are not socialist nations.

My bottom line beliefs are:
I don't believe that other nations have quite the baby boomer population we have, and that some other nations are generally healthier than we are.
I believe that other nations' universal health plans are tailor made to the population of those nations.
I don't believe our nation is a good canidate for a universal healthcare plan.
I believe our current plan is very flawed.
I believe the cause of our healthcare problem is plain greed (duh!).
I believe the solution is to somehow curb this greed, without just taking over the system, however
I believe that if the new healthcare plan is implemented, we aren't going to snowball into a socialist nation.
(I believe our government has enough sense to keep that from happening.)

I don't think this healthcare plan is what we need, but if it happened, I'm sure we would adapt, and I'm sure we aren't going socialist.

My views would seem to contradict some poeples views. That is because some people are extremists; I sit on the fence. Too many people are suaded by propaganda- by what they hear on TV or from other people (usually other extremists). It's not wrong to believe what you want. (that's what makes America great.) It's my hope that people make truly educated decisions, in either way.

I bet some people think I don't know what I'm talking about; that I don't know all the facts. You could be right, but there's no need to point it out. Be more civil than that. Some people are just barking out "you're wrong! You're wrong! " and "how can you possibly think that!" There is no right or wrong answer here, people. How can there be a right or wrong when there is no answer at all?

Just know this: You can't please all the people all the time.


Take all that with a grain of salt- I worked 13 hours today:roll:.

Very well said and very much the truth... Kudos for this.

[Proven]

Yes, hence the screenname :)

The folks who are "spending Trillions" on war aren't the same ones who will be funding healthcare.

I like that we provide countries assistance when they need it, however I oppose it in times like these where we can't even get our own **** together.

The programs we have in place unfortunately promote freeloading due to not setting the bar high enough to receive the assistance provided.

I agree, and yes freeloaders will be taking advantage of this but that shouldnt stop it from happening for the rest of the country who tries. No plan/bill can be 100% bullet proof but if its for the greater good and helps delete greedy/in-efficiant business I'm all for it.

[Proven]

President-elect Barack Obama said he wants the federal government to invest in electronic health records so all medical records are digitized within five years.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1R2ADFA_enUS338&q=medical+records+being+stored+by+the+gov+of+obama +medical%3F&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

And this will help make the healthcare system run more smoothly/ faster, help prevent mis-treatments, help stop from proceedures being done twice, etc, etc... Imagine your in a car wreck out of state and knocked out... Imagine the doctors nervous about giving you meds because you might be allergic so they wait 30mins to have your files fax'ed over. This may not happen to you but it happens to OTHER people outside your bubble.

You don't want that though Because someone may hack into the system and might find out you have allergies, or that you had a broken arm when you were 12? Thats one of the reasons why you want people in america to nothave health coverage? And people are singing your petition :bigeek:


PLEASE STOP HYPING THE BILL UP WITH LIES AND TWISTS OF TRUTH TO GET WHAT YOU WANT!.... Pretty please?

[Proven]

If you recognize the credit, and more importantly, the mortgage crisis and why it happened, why do you support the universal health care? It just makes no sense to me. I, for one, and I speak for many, would LOVE it if my private health insurance stopped rising by $6 every other month. On the flip side, with all of the medical litigation's and insurance going on, I understand it.

TORT REFORM would save us more than this or any other government program offers, but they won't say it. Look at their degrees.

Good read (the parts I deleted out though). I def. can say I respect how you work and what you do and can understand why you may be againts it. I left the rest to respond with I dont think the mortgage crisis was government fualt?? If they did step in before hand to stop it everyone would of course cried that the government wants to own your house, OP would of started a petition..

The mortgage crisis is EXACTLY why I'm for this healthcare plan as an example of how things get messed up when not regulated. Rising costs of healthcare like you mentioned will continue if things are run as they are. The greed, in-efficianties, over billing, over testing all lead to higher insurance rates and it will all just get worse. This plan IMO is going to help fix that and bring it all to a steady all while helping insuring the country. You (and me for that matter) will not 100% agree on everything within the bill but it is for the better.

[OutlawzPrez]

Here are many of the 1017 page Health Care Bill "America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009

"Clauses interpreted by a man named Peter Fleckstein (aka Fleckman) who is reading it and has been posting on Twitter his findings. This is from his postings (Note: All comments are Fleckman’s) SEC underlined are his interpretations.

If his interpretations are right it is horrifying and America takes another blow in it's fight for freedom!


SEC. 102 - Outlaws private insurance by forbidding enrollment after HR 3200 is passed into law.


H.R. 3200 states:


SEC. 102. PROTECTING THE CHOICE TO KEEP CURRENT COVERAGE.


(a) GRANDFATHERED HEALTH INSURANCE COVERAGE DEFINED.—Subject to the succeeding provisions of 4 this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term ‘‘grandfathered health insurance coverage’’ means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:



(1) LIMITATIONONNEWENROLLMENT.—


(A) INGENERAL.—Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first ef-14

fective date of coverage is on or after the first day of Y1.


(B) DEPENDENT COVERAGE PERMITTED.—Subparagraph (A) shall not affect the subsequent enrollment of a dependent of an individual who is covered as of such first day.


(2) LIMITATION ON CHANGES IN TERMS OR CONDITIONS.—


(A) Subject to paragraph (3) and except as required by law, the issuer does not change any of its terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing, from those in effect as of the day before the first day of Y1.



SEC. 122 - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!


H.R. 3200 states:


SEC. 122. ESSENTIAL BENEFITS PACKAGE DEFINED.


(2) ANNUAL LIMITATION-


(A) ANNUAL LIMITATION- The cost-sharing incurred under the essential benefits package with respect to an individual (or family) for a year does not exceed the applicable level specified in subparagraph (B).


(B) APPLICABLE LEVEL- The applicable level specified in this subparagraph for Y1 is $5,000 for an individual and $10,000 for a family. Such levels shall be increased (rounded to the nearest $100) for each subsequent year by the annual percentage increase in the Consumer Price Index (United States city average) applicable to such year.


(C) USE OF COPAYMENTS- In establishing cost-sharing levels for basic, enhanced, and premium plans under this subsection, the Secretary shall, to the maximum extent possible, use only copayments and not coinsurance.



SEC. 123 - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get


H.R. 3200 States:


SEC. 123. HEALTH BENEFITS ADVISORY COMMITTEE.


(a) ESTABLISHMENT.— IN GENERAL.—There is established a private-public advisory committee which shall be a panel of medical and other experts to be known as the Health Benefits Advisory Committee to recommend covered benefits and essential, enhanced, and premium plans.



SEC. 142 - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC Benefits for you. You have no choice!

SEC. 142 DUTIES AND AUTHORITY OF COMMISSIONER


(a) Duties- The Commissioner is responsible for carrying out the following functions under this division:


(1) QUALIFIED PLAN STANDARDS- The establishment of qualified health benefits plan standards under this title, including the enforcement of such standards in coordination with State insurance regulators and the Secretaries of Labor and the Treasury.


(2) HEALTH INSURANCE EXCHANGE- The establishment and operation of a Health Insurance Exchange under subtitle A of title II.


(3) INDIVIDUAL AFFORDABILITY CREDITS- The administration of individual affordability credits under subtitle C of title II, including determination of eligibility for such credits.


(4) ADDITIONAL FUNCTIONS- Such additional functions as may be specified in this division.



SEC. 152 - HC will be provided to ALL non US citizens, ILLEGAL or otherwise.


H.R. 3200 states:


SEC. 152. PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATION IN HEALTH CARE.


(a) In General- Except as otherwise explicitly permitted by this Act and by subsequent regulations consistent with this Act, all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act shall be provided without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services.


(b) Implementation- To implement the requirement set forth in subsection (a), the Secretary of Health and Human Services shall, not later than 18 months after the date of the enactment of this Act, promulgate such regulations as are necessary or appropriate to insure that all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act are provided (whether directly or through contractual, licensing, or other arrangements) without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services.



SEC. 163. - Gov't will have real-time access to individuals' finances and a national ID health card will be issued- Government will have DIRECT access to your BANK ACCOUNTS for electronic funds transfer. This means the government can go in and take your money right out of your bank account.


H.R. 3200 states:


SEC. 163. ADMINISTRATIVE SIMPLIFICATION.


(a) Standardizing Electronic Administrative Transactions-


(1) IN GENERAL- Part C of title XI of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1320d et seq.) is amended by inserting after section 1173 the following new section:


(D) enable the real-time (or near real-time) determination of an individual's financial responsibility at the point of service and, to the extent possible, prior to service, including whether the individual is eligible for a specific service with a specific physician at a specific facility, which may include utilization of a machine-readable health plan beneficiary identification card;


(E) enable, where feasible, near real-time adjudication of claims;



SEC. 201. - Government is creating an HC Exchange to bring private HC plans under Government control.


H.R. 3200 states:


SEC. 201. ESTABLISHMENT OF HEALTH INSURANCE EXCHANGE; OUTLINE OF DUTIES; DEFINITIONS.


(a) Establishment- There is established within the Health Choices Administration and under the direction of the Commissioner a Health Insurance Exchange in order to facilitate access of individuals and employers, through a transparent process, to a variety of choices of affordable, quality health insurance coverage, including a public health insurance option.


(b) Outline of Duties of Commissioner- In accordance with this subtitle and in coordination with appropriate Federal and State officials as provided under section 143(b), the Commissioner shall--


(1) under section 204 establish standards for, accept bids from, and negotiate and enter into contracts with, QHBP offering entities for the offering of health benefits plans through the Health Insurance Exchange, with different levels of benefits required under section 203, and including with respect to oversight and enforcement;


(2) under section 205 facilitate outreach and enrollment in such plans of Exchange-eligible individuals and employers described in section 202; and


(3) conduct such activities related to the Health Insurance Exchange as required, including establishment of a risk pooling mechanism under section 206 and consumer protections under subtitle D of title I.


(c) Exchange-participating Health Benefits Plan Defined- In this division, the term `Exchange-participating health benefits plan' means a qualified health benefits plan that is offered through the Health Insurance Exchange.

(ci)



SEC. 203. – Government mandates ALL benefit packages for private HC plans in the Exchange and again RATIONS health care.


H.R. 3200 States:


SEC. 203. BENEFITS PACKAGE LEVELS.


(a) In General- The Commissioner shall specify the benefits to be made available under Exchange-participating health benefits plans during each plan year, consistent with subtitle C of title I and this section.


(b) Limitation on Health Benefits Plans Offered by Offering Entities- The Commissioner may not enter into a contract with a QHBP offering entity under section 204(c) for the offering of an Exchange-participating health benefits plan in a service area unless the following requirements are met:


(1) REQUIRED OFFERING OF BASIC PLAN- The entity offers only one basic plan for such service area.


(2) OPTIONAL OFFERING OF ENHANCED PLAN- If and only if the entity offers a basic plan for such service area, the entity may offer one enhanced plan for such area.


(3) OPTIONAL OFFERING OF PREMIUM PLAN- If and only if the entity offers an enhanced plan for such service area, the entity may offer one premium plan for such area.


(4) OPTIONAL OFFERING OF PREMIUM-PLUS PLANS- If and only if the entity offers a premium plan for such service area, the entity may offer one or more premium-plus plans for such area.



SEC. 205. - The Government will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps to sign up individuals for Government HC plan AND Medicaid Eligible Individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice!


H.R. 3200 States:


SEC. 205. OUTREACH AND ENROLLMENT OF EXCHANGE-ELIGIBLE INDIVIDUALS AND EMPLOYERS IN EXCHANGE-PARTICIPATING HEALTH BENEFITS PLAN.


(A) IN GENERAL-


(1) OUTREACH- The Commissioner shall conduct outreach activities consistent with subsection (c), including through use of appropriate entities as described in paragraph (4) of such subsection, to inform and educate individuals and employers about the Health Insurance Exchange and Exchange-participating health benefits plan options. Such outreach shall include outreach specific to vulnerable populations, such as children, individuals with disabilities, individuals with mental illness, and individuals with other cognitive impairments.


(3) AUTOMATIC ENROLLMENT FOR NON-MEDICAID ELIGIBLE INDIVIDUALS-


(A) IN GENERAL- The Commissioner shall provide for a process under which individuals who are Exchange-eligible individuals described in subparagraph (B) are automatically enrolled under an appropriate Exchange-participating health benefits plan. Such process may involve a random assignment or some other form of assignment that takes into account the health care providers used by the individual involved or such other relevant factors as the Commissioner may specify.


(3) AUTOMATIC ENROLLMENT OF MEDICAID ELIGIBLE INDIVIDUALS INTO MEDICAID- The Commissioner shall provide for a process under which an individual who is described in section 202(d)(3) and has not elected to enroll in an Exchange-participating health benefits plan is automatically enrolled under Medicaid.



SEC. 223. - No company can sue the GOVERNMENT on price fixing! No “judicial review” against Government Monopoly!!

H.R. 3200 States:


SEC. 223. PAYMENT RATES FOR ITEMS AND SERVICES


(f) Limitations on Review- There shall be no administrative or judicial review of a payment rate or methodology established under this section or under section 224.



SEC. 225. – Doctors/ AMA – The Government will tell YOU what you can make.


H.R. 3200 States:


SEC. 225. PROVIDER PARTICIPATION


(a) In General- The Secretary shall establish conditions of participation for health care providers under the public health insurance option.


(b) Licensure or Certification- The Secretary shall not allow a health care provider to participate in the public health insurance option unless such provider is appropriately licensed or certified under State law.


(c) Payment Terms for Providers-


(1) PHYSICIANS- The Secretary shall provide for the annual participation of physicians under the public health insurance option, for which payment may be made for services furnished during the year, in one of 2 classes:


(A) PREFERRED PHYSICIANS- Those physicians who agree to accept the payment rate established under section 223 (without regard to cost-sharing) as the payment in full.


(B) PARTICIPATING, NON-PREFERRED PHYSICIANS- Those physicians who agree not to impose charges (in relation to the payment rate described in section 223 for such physicians) that exceed the ratio permitted under section 1848(g)(2)(C) of the Social Security Act.

[OutlawzPrez]

CONTINUED...

SEC. 312. - An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into public option plan and employers MUST pay for HC for part time employees AND their families. NO CHOICE!!


H.R. 3200 States:


SEC. 312. EMPLOYER RESPONSIBILITY TO CONTRIBUTE TOWARDS EMPLOYEE AND DEPENDENT COVERAGE


(a) In General- An employer meets the requirements of this section with respect to an employee if the following requirements are met:


(1) OFFERING OF COVERAGE- The employer offers the coverage described in section 311(1) either through an Exchange-participating health benefits plan or other than through such a plan.


(2) EMPLOYER REQUIRED CONTRIBUTION- The employer timely pays to the issuer of such coverage an amount not less than the employer required contribution specified in subsection (b) for such coverage.


(3) PROVISION OF INFORMATION- The employer provides the Health Choices Commissioner, the Secretary of Labor, the Secretary of Health and Human Services, and the Secretary of the Treasury, as applicable, with such information as the Commissioner may require to ascertain compliance with the requirements of this section.


(4) AUTOENROLLMENT OF EMPLOYEES- The employer provides for autoenrollment of the employee in accordance with subsection (c).


(b) Reduction of Employee Premiums Through Minimum Employer Contribution-


(3) MINIMUM EMPLOYER CONTRIBUTION FOR EMPLOYEES OTHER THAN FULL-TIME EMPLOYEES- In the case of coverage for an employee who is not a full-time employee, the amount of the minimum employer contribution under this subsection shall be a proportion (as determined in accordance with rules of the Health Choices Commissioner, the Secretary of Labor, the Secretary of Health and Human Services, and the Secretary of the Treasury, as applicable) of the minimum employer contribution under this subsection with respect to a full-time employee that reflects the proportion of--


(A) the average weekly hours of employment of the employee by the employer, to


(B) the minimum weekly hours specified by the Commissioner for an employee to be a full-time employee.



SEC. 401. - ANY individual who doesn’t have acceptable HC according to Government will be taxed 2.5% of income AND Any NONRESIDENT Alien is EXEMPT from individual taxes. (Americans will pay)


H.R. 3200 STATES:


SEC. 401. TAX ON INDIVIDUALS WITHOUT ACCEPTABLE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE


Subpart A--Tax on Individuals Without Acceptable Health Care Coverage


`Sec. 59B. Tax on individuals without acceptable health care coverage.


`SEC. 59B. TAX ON INDIVIDUALS WITHOUT ACCEPTABLE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE.


`(a) Tax Imposed- In the case of any individual who does not meet the requirements of subsection (d) at any time during the taxable year, there is hereby imposed a tax equal to 2.5 percent of the excess of--


(1) the taxpayer's modified adjusted gross income for the taxable year, over


(2) the amount of gross income specified in section 6012(a)(1) with respect to the taxpayer.


(c) Exceptions-


(2) NONRESIDENT ALIENS- Subsection (a) shall not apply to any individual who is a nonresident alien.



SEC. 1122. - Government sets value of Doctor’s time, professional judgment, etc. Literally value of humans.


H.R. 3200 STATES:


SEC. 1122. MISVALUED CODES UNDER THE PHYSICIAN FEE SCHEDULE.


(a) In General- Section 1848(c)(2) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395w-4(c)(2)) is amended by adding at the end the following new subparagraphs:


(K) POTENTIALLY MISVALUED CODES-


(i) IN GENERAL- The Secretary shall--


(I) periodically identify services as being potentially misvalued using criteria specified in clause (ii); and


(II) review and make appropriate adjustments to the relative values established under this paragraph for services identified as being potentially misvalued under subclause (I).


(ii) IDENTIFICATION OF POTENTIALLY MISVALUED CODES- For purposes of identifying potentially misvalued services pursuant to clause (i)(I), the Secretary shall examine (as the Secretary determines to be appropriate) codes (and families of codes as appropriate) for which there has been the fastest growth; codes (and families of codes as appropriate) that have experienced substantial changes in practice expenses; codes for new technologies or services within an appropriate period (such as three years) after the relative values are initially established for such codes; multiple codes that are frequently billed in conjunction with furnishing a single service; codes with low relative values, particularly those that are often billed multiple times for a single treatment; codes which have not been subject to review since the implementation of the RBRVS (the so-called `Harvard-valued codes'); and such other codes determined to be appropriate by the Secretary.



SEC. 1141. - Federal Government regulates rental and purchase of power driven wheelchairs


H.R. 3200 STATES:


PART 3--OTHER PROVISIONS


SEC. 1141. RENTAL AND PURCHASE OF POWER-DRIVEN WHEELCHAIRS.


(a) In General- Section 1834(a)(7)(A)(iii) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395m(a)(7)(A)(iii)) is amended--


(1) in the heading, by inserting `CERTAIN COMPLEX REHABILITATIVE' after `OPTION FOR'; and


(2) by striking `power-driven wheelchair' and inserting `complex rehabilitative power-driven wheelchair recognized by the Secretary as classified within group 3 or higher'.


(b) Effective Date- The amendments made by subsection (a) shall take effect on January 1, 2011, and shall apply to power-driven wheelchairs furnished on or after such date. Such amendments shall not apply to contracts entered into under section 1847 of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395w-3) pursuant to a bid submitted under such section before October 1, 2010, under subsection (a)(1)(B)(i)(I) of such section.


SEC. 1145. – Cancer patients – welcome to rationing! You may not get that 'specilized' cancer treatment center as an option.

H.R. 3200 STATES:


SEC. 1145. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS.


Section 1833(t) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395l(t)) is amended by adding at the end the following new paragraph:


(18) AUTHORIZATION OF ADJUSTMENT FOR CANCER HOSPITALS-


(A) STUDY- The Secretary shall conduct a study to determine if, under the system under this subsection, costs incurred by hospitals described in section 1886(d)(1)(B)(v) with respect to ambulatory payment classification groups exceed those costs incurred by other hospitals furnishing services under this subsection (as determined appropriate by the Secretary).


(B) AUTHORIZATION OF ADJUSTMENT- Insofar as the Secretary determines under subparagraph (A) that costs incurred by hospitals described in section 1886(d)(1)(B)(v) exceed those costs incurred by other hospitals furnishing services under this subsection, the Secretary shall provide for an appropriate adjustment under paragraph (2)(E) to reflect those higher costs effective for services furnished on or after January 1, 2011.'.


SEC. 1151. - The Government will penalize hospitals for what Government deems preventable readmissions. Doctors! Treat a patient during initial admission that results in a readmission? Government will penalize you.


H.R. 3200 States:


SEC. 1151. REDUCING POTENTIALLY PREVENTABLE HOSPITAL READMISSIONS.


(a) Hospitals-


(1) IN GENERAL- Section 1886 of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395ww), as amended by section 1103(a), is amended by adding at the end the following new subsection:


(p) Adjustment to Hospital Payments for Excess Readmissions-


(1) IN GENERAL- With respect to payment for discharges from an applicable hospital (as defined in paragraph (5)(C)) occurring during a fiscal year beginning on or after October 1, 2011, in order to account for excess readmissions in the hospital, the Secretary shall reduce the payments that would otherwise be made to such hospital under subsection (d) (or section 1814(b)(3), as the case may be) for such a discharge by an amount equal to the product of--


(d) Physicians-


(1) STUDY- The Secretary of Health and Human Services shall conduct a study to determine how the readmissions policy described in the previous subsections could be applied to physicians.


(2) CONSIDERATIONS- In conducting the study, the Secretary shall consider approaches such as--


(A) creating a new code (or codes) and payment amount (or amounts) under the fee schedule in section 1848 of the Social Security Act (in a budget neutral manner) for services furnished by an appropriate physician who sees an individual within the first week after discharge from a hospital or critical access hospital;


(B) developing measures of rates of readmission for individuals treated by physicians;


(C) applying a payment reduction for physicians who treat the patient during the initial admission that results in a readmission; and


(D) methods for attributing payments or payment reductions to the appropriate physician or physicians.




SEC. 1156. - PROHIBITION on ownership and investment! Government tells Doctors what and how much they can own!


H.R. 3200 States:


SEC. 1156. LIMITATION ON MEDICARE EXCEPTIONS TO THE PROHIBITION ON CERTAIN PHYSICIAN REFERRALS MADE TO HOSPITALS


(B) PROHIBITION ON PHYSICIAN OWNERSHIP OR INVESTMENT- The percentage of the total value of the ownership or investment interests held in the hospital, or in an entity whose assets include the hospital, by physician owners or investors in the aggregate does not exceed such percentage as of the date of enactment of this subsection.



SEC. 1177 - Gov't will RESTRICT enrollment of special needs people


H.R. 3200 states:


SEC. 1177. EXTENSION OF AUTHORITY OF SPECIAL NEEDS PLANS TO RESTRICT ENROLLMENT.


(a) In General- Section 1859(f)(1) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395w-28(f)(1)) is amended by striking `January 1, 2011' and inserting `January 1, 2013 (or January 1, 2016, in the case of a plan described in section 1177(b)(1) of the America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009)'.


(b) Grandfathering of Certain Plans-


(1) PLANS DESCRIBED- For purposes of section 1859(f)(1) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395w-28(f)(1)), a plan described in this paragraph is a plan that had a contract with a State that had a State program to operate an integrated Medicaid-Medicare program that had been approved by the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services as of January 1, 2004.


(2) ANALYSIS; REPORT- The Secretary of Health and Human Services shall provide, through a contract with an independent health services evaluation organization, for an analysis of the plans described in paragraph (1) with regard to the impact of such plans on cost, quality of care, patient satisfaction, and other subjects as specified by the Secretary. Not later than December 31, 2011, the Secretary shall submit to Congress a report on such analysis and shall include in such report such recommendations with regard to the treatment of such plans as the Secretary deems appropriate.



SEC. 1233. - Government mandates Advance Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life. Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney. Mandatory! Government provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death! Government mandates program for orders for end of life. The Government has a say in how your life ends! An “advance care planning consultant” will be used frequently as patients health deteriorates.


“advance care consultation” may include an ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV

The Government will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order. The Government will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life.

H.R. 3200 Ststaes:


SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION


(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the term `advance care planning consultation' means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning, if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such consultation shall include the following:


(A) An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to.


(B) An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses.


(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.


(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning, including the national toll-free hotline, the advance care planning clearinghouses, and State legal service organizations (including those funded through the Older Americans Act of 1965).


(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title.


(F)(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders, which shall include--


(I) the reasons why the development of such an order is beneficial to the individual and the individual's family and the reasons why such an order should be updated periodically as the health of the individual changes;


(II) the information needed for an individual or legal surrogate to make informed decisions regarding the completion of such an order; and


(III) the identification of resources that an individual may use to determine the requirements of the State in which such individual resides so that the treatment wishes of that individual will be carried out if the individual is unable to communicate those wishes, including requirements regarding the designation of a surrogate decisionmaker (also known as a health care proxy).

[Proven]

For those that don't realize it the in bold statements above are not in the origanal Bill. The underline parts are the editors opninions and not in the bill itself. You are reading and edited version with fear statements to create a bias reader.

Hopefully people will read the Bill itself and gain their own opinions rather then let the thoughts put into their heads control the read.

[jpalamar]

Since everyone is getting insurance wiht this bill, why don't I quality for walfare. I want my handout. It isn't fair that I work for everything I have while others get free stuff. Everyone is born equal. You make choices to go to college and be successful, have a baby at 16 and be a bum the rest of your life, or get a job out of high school.

No one makes theses decisions for people. If you can't afford healthcare then you need to re-evaluate your life choices and make changes. Or just deal with the fact you can't get help when your sick. This country was built on the idea of having a better life. Too many are taking steps backwards and that is why there is need for systems like this.

[OutlawzPrez]

SEC. 1233. - It basically says that the Government will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order. The Government will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life. Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney. Mandatory! Government provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death! Government mandates program for orders for end of life. The Government has a say in how your life ends! An “advance care planning consultant” will be used frequently as patients health deteriorates.

I don't want the government telling me that I can't recieve treatment b/c I'm gonna die anyway & its too expensive to keep me alive. BS!

[OutlawzPrez]

Alot of people want our healthcare modeled after england & canadas. their healhcare is rationed, people with advanced level 4 breast cancer can't get treatment b/c its too expensive for the gov't to provide.

-ER's in certain towns close early
-Some of canadas biggest cities can't afford an emergency helicoptor b/c of the gov't control & rationing
-They have longgggg waits for the er
- Dr appts, medical procedures etc
-Some countries in europe take 60% out of their paychecks for this too.

Here's one example... If I make, $40,000 a year & the gov't taxes me an extra 25% for healthcare then that means I am paying $10,000 a year out of my paycheck or $833.33 a month for health insurance that I can get myself for $78 a month, or what if I just don't want to get insurance to save money??? THE GOV'T WILL FINE ME $2500 YEARLY. NO THANK YOU SIR!

[OutlawzPrez]

For those that don't realize it the in bold statements above are not in the origanal Bill. The underline parts are the editors opninions and not in the bill itself. You are reading and edited version with fear statements to create a bias reader.

Hopefully people will read the Bill itself and gain their own opinions rather then let the thoughts put into their heads control the read.

Its just plain common sense.

[SheaButter]

Thats one problem i have with alot of doctor's is that all they care about is there paycheck. not the well being of there patient. and in the last 20 years more and more doc's care about the money. to me that shows greed on there part. people should want to become doctors cause they care about other people not caues its the pay check they care about.

I understand what you are saying on that one but think of this. Should some guy honestly get paid more money to play a sport, then to save ur life. If you can honestly answer that question with a yes then I understand where u are coming from about dr's and their pay. So if i am going to put 7 years of my life away to study how to treat people and also rack up 6 figures of debt to work for nothing just because they want to help people is ridiculous, Sure there paychecks show greed on their part but they are the ones saving you and also looking out for your well being. They have so much pressure on them to be perfect in every single thing they do, bc if they dont you and every other american would sue.
This is the down fall of america, people no longer want to do a honest days worth of work, they would rather make a buck off someone else and do it as quickly as possible. No one is holding any kind of accountability any more.

[OutlawzPrez]

Almost 20,000 people signed since yesterday.

[poolmike]

Our wonderful gov't put the 4 month cash for clunkers plan into action, teamed up with starving Americans, it blew the budget in 4 days....what makes anyone think that they can do a good job of managing the so called 'healthcare crisis'?

[Proven]

Our wonderful gov't put the 4 month cash for clunkers plan into action, teamed up with starving Americans, it blew the budget in 4 days....what makes anyone think that they can do a good job of managing the so called 'healthcare crisis'?

From what I've heard on the news and researched the Government was offering 1 billion for the cash for clunkers. They PROJECTED it would take about 4 months to run out... it took about a week. Sounds like it worked very well to me?? Are they adding more money to it?

When you said "blew the budget" did you mean the money got all used up and now the "cash for clunkers" is no more? Or the money was used up (which means people went and bought cars) and they are adding more money to it?

[poolmike]

From what I've heard on the news and researched the Government was offering 1 billion for the cash for clunkers. They PROJECTED it would take about 4 months to run out... it took about a week. Sounds like it worked very well to me?? Are they adding more money to it?

When you said "blew the budget" did you mean the money got all used up and now they cash for clunkers is no more? Or the money was used up (which means people went and bought cars) and they are adding more money to it?

It did work...but not well. Gov't spent $1 billion in 4 days. $1 billion printed of money it doesn't have. $1 billion worthless printed pieces of paper.

Gov't claims it didn't know it would work so well. They need to get a clue. They offer a major discount on valueless machinery and didn't think that people would jump right on it? No they are throwing more money into it? How far out of budget will healthcare go? And who will pay for it?

[Proven]

It did work...but not well. Gov't spent $1 billion in 4 days. $1 billion printed of money it doesn't have. $1 billion worthless printed pieces of paper.

Gov't claims it didn't know it would work so well. They need to get a clue. They offer a major discount on valueless machinery and didn't think that people would jump right on it? No they are throwing more money into it? How far out of budget will healthcare go? And who will pay for it?

"Budget blown" when it wasn’t, I'm now calling these "false fear statements". It was time under estimated for the set amount of money given to be used up (not more money added because they under estimated cost). Dealers got sales, hopefully up sold, and people got new cars that are better on gas and more reliable. Some money will be made up on teh scraps. Like you said the plan worked! But also like mentioned maybe to well -

The only prob. I can see is the government not being able to pay these dealers within the 4 months or whatever time has been set for payment and agreed upon by the dealers that signed up. As of now there’s no problem and I think its crazy to suspect there is or to get others to jump to conclusions that it has failed.

[poolmike]

:rofl::rotfl:

http://www.comcast.net/articles/finance/20090731/US.Economy/

WASHINGTON — Two of President Barack Obama's economic heavyweights said middle-class taxes might have to go up to pare budget deficits or to pay for the proposed overhaul of the nation's health care system.

The tough talk from Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner and National Economic Council Director Lawrence Summers on Sunday capped a week that brought rare good news for the economy: The worst recession in the United States since World War II could be on the verge of ending. Even so, officials appeared willing to extend unemployment benefits.

Geithner and Summers both sidestepped questions on Obama's intentions about taxes. Geithner said the White House was not ready to rule out a tax hike to reduce the federal deficit; Summers said Obama's proposed health care overhaul needs funding from somewhere.

"There is a lot that can happen over time," Summers said, adding that the administration believes "it is never a good idea to absolutely rule things out, no matter what."

During his presidential campaign, Obama repeatedly pledged "you will not see any of your taxes increase one single dime." But the simple reality remains that his ambitious overhaul of how Americans receive health care — promised without increasing the federal deficit — must be paid for.

"If we want an economy that's going to grow in the future, people have to understand we have to bring those deficits down. And it's going to be difficult, hard for us to do. And the path to that is through health care reform," Geithner said. "We're not at the point yet where we're going to make a judgment about what it's going to take."

On Friday, a report detailed the economy dipped only slightly in the second quarter of this year — falling at a 1 percent annual pace, better than expected. The government report permitted optimism that the economic downturn is approaching its end.

The president cautioned against instant turnaround, though.

"Well as I've said, I think we maybe are beginning to see the end of the recession but it's still going to be some time before we are seeing companies hiring again, that's usually the last thing that happens," Obama said in an interview with Univision that aired on Sunday.

"So I think we are still going to have a tough remainder of the year — probably until next year — but, you know, at least what we are seeing — we've pulled back from the possibility of a depression. That's not the danger."

And many analysts think the economy is starting to grow again in the current quarter, setting up a long-awaited recovery.

"Most private forecasters — and let's use their judgment — suggest you're going to see unemployment start to come down maybe beginning in the second half of next year," Geithner said, adding those same economists predict positive growth during the second half of this year.

At the same time, Geithner and other administration officials are contemplating how to ask Congress to extend — again — unemployment benefits for the millions of Americans who have lost their jobs in recent months. The proposal drew measured support from Sen. Jim DeMint, R-S.C., as long as the benefits are drawn from the already approved economic stimulus package.

"We need to take care of those who are unemployed, but we also need to make sure they get jobs," he said.

Those jobs, though, are still elusive. Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said the economy is slowly coming back and that he is "pretty sure we've already seen the bottom."

"Collapse, I think, is now off the table. We were teetering for a while," he said.

Geithner and Greenspan appeared on ABC's "This Week." Summers appeared on NBC's "Meet the Press" and CBS' "Face the Nation." DeMint was interviewed on "Fox News Sunday."

[Scapegoat]

what a bunch of ****tards...

[poolmike]

These people can't tie their own shoes properly, let alone plan a 'cash for clunkers' program or any other bailout. Now they want to take over my personal health? :finga: F- them and everyone that supports it.

[poolmike]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_obama_s_math_analysis

WASHINGTON – Some of President Barack Obama's health care numbers don't seem to add up. And that's complicating his efforts to pass his top domestic priority.

Obama could be falling into the same trap that snagged George W. Bush when he was pushing private accounts for Social Security as part of his "ownership society" in 2005. Bush's claims that the proposal would help shore up Social Security's long-term finances were hard to document mathematically and wound up feeding greater public skepticism.

Obama claims his health effort will not dig the nation deeper into debt and over time will help reduce deficits. He has vowed to not sign any health bill that raises deficits.

But even the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office says that none of the health plans pending on Capitol Hill would control long-term spending, and that ones with the elements Obama wants would add around $1 trillion to the deficit over the next 10 years.

Furthermore the CBO said an administration-backed independent council of medical experts to recommend Medicare cuts would only yield modest savings.

The White House stands by its claims. Its allies claim that CBO forecasts, for instance, don't reflect potential future cost savings that might be expected from the prevention of illness achieved from wider health care coverage.

A recent report by the White House Council of Economic Advisers claims that the government can cut the projected level of health spending by 15 percent over the next decade and by 30 percent over the next 20 years. However, some of those reductions would come from fewer services rather than lower payments to providers.

Recent polls show increasing anxiety over federal budget deficits and the failure of Congress to figure out how to pay for health care overhaul.

Suggestions have ranged from taxes on soft drinks to a surcharge on wealthy individuals, from a tax on health insurance benefits paid by employers — opposed by Obama in last year's campaign — to a proposed tax on insurance companies. That, plus letting existing Bush tax cuts expire for wealthier Americans.

White House Budget Director Peter Orszag, a former CBO director, insists that the health care effort "is deficit neutral over the first decade."

Other budget experts are dubious.

During his presidential campaign, Obama repeatedly vowed "you will not see any of your taxes increase one single dime" — although he also talked about raising taxes on families making more than $250,000 to pay for health care. On Sunday, Larry Summers, Obama's chief economic adviser, said the health care overhaul needs funding from somewhere and refused to rule out higher taxes on middle-income Americans.

"There is a lot that can happen over time," Summers said, adding that the administration believes "it is never a good idea to absolutely rule things out, no matter what."

Some analysts note that new taxes to support the health care plan would begin in 2011 but the benefit parts wouldn't be fully up and running for several more years, resulting in one-time-only extra revenue.

"From what we've seen so far, I don't look at this as a cost-saving effort," said Robert Bixby, executive director of the Concord Coalition, a budget watchdog group. "I don't know how they're going to pay for it, even over the first ten years. Getting off the launch pad is difficult, then controlling the orbit hasn't been figured out yet."

The House headed home for their August recess, and the Senate plans to begin its recess at week's end, after missing Obama's original deadlines for health care votes in each chamber.

At home, lawmakers are certain to be buffeted by constituents who polls show are becoming uneasy over the health legislation debate.

Even members of Obama's party are voicing skepticism while Republicans have mounted a full-bore attack on the program as a costly and risky government "takeover" during a deep recession.

The contentious debate carries overtones of Bush's ill-fated efforts to partially privatize Social Security.

Fresh off a re-election victory, Bush claimed in early 2005 that his proposal to let younger workers set up private investment accounts would help shore up Social Security's finances. He traveled around the country promoting the scheme, much as Obama is today with his health care effort.

Bush insisted such accounts will grow fast enough to provide a better return than the present system. At the time, the Dow was close to 11,000, far above where it sits today.

The Bush White House projected that setting up private accounts would have a "net neutral effect" on deficits. Sound familiar?

But that was true only over the long term, 75 years or more. In the shorter term, creation of private accounts would have required heavy federal borrowing to finance the payment of benefits to current retirees.

Bush eventually made it clear those setting up such accounts would also have to relinquish an offsetting portion of their future guaranteed retirement benefits.

Lawrence Summers, a top Obama economics adviser, said Sunday that, "What the president has been completely clear on is that he is not going to pursue any of his priorities — not health care, not energy, nothing — in ways that are primarily burdening middle-class families. That is something that is not going to happen," he told CBS.

Health care programs almost always cost more than first projected, including — Obama likes to point out — Bush's Medicare prescription-drug program. "You passed a prescription drug plan and didn't pay for it, handed the bill to me," Obama said in remarks directed at Republicans.

"That's been the history of all these kinds of programs," says Harvard economist Martin Feldstein, who was chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers from 1982 to 1984. He cited both Medicare and Medicaid as examples.

Obama has said the health legislation is vital to achieving economic recovery. But others worry that Obama could damage his cause by overstating his case.

[ndubz]

No i will not sign ur petition. :mrgreen:

[OutlawzPrez]

These people can't tie their own shoes properly, let alone plan a 'cash for clunkers' program or any other bailout. Now they want to take over my personal health? :finga: F- them and everyone that supports it.

Don't worry, I got your back poolmike. I've always said if you want to defeat a liberal in an arguement "Just show em the facts". And thats what we're doing. but they are still complaining as always lol. They have not showed any effort on as to why they support this bill, except for saying" Its for the good of the country".

Well my fellow socialists. I mean my fellow liberals, what part of the bill did you read or like? Does the good out weigh the bad? Whoever didn't do research or didn't read any part of the bill should not be allowed to have a say in this if they don't understand what their talking about.

[Proven]

Don't worry, I got your back poolmike. I've always said if you want to defeat a liberal in an arguement "Just show em the facts". And thats what we're doing. but they are still complaining as always lol. They have not showed any effort on as to why they support this bill, except for saying" Its for the good of the country"..

I've mentioned many times why I support the bill, read back.

Complaining? isnt that why you started this petition?

You mentioned you've given us the "facts". Here’s a couple I have qs. about the facts you've given us..

1. You said Obama WANTS to give free health care to 12 million illegal aliens? Is that all fact? Or, is it the FACT that about 12 million illegal aliens have gotten illegal drivers licenses and illegal SS #'s so with this they "look like American" and may be able to get the coverage? Also, did you mention the fact there’s being steps taken to make sure they don't slip by the system?

2. You mentioned that 50% of your pay checks is going to this bill, Is that a fact?

3. You mentioned that our medical records are going to be stored digitally in DC? Is that a fact? definitely DC? If so, I asked you before, is hiding something like you having allergies or had a broken leg when you were 12 to all doctors enough to stop the healthcare system from running faster, smoother, and giving coverage to all Americans? If you went to the hospital would you rather wait for someone to call to get your information then have it faxed, or wait for someone to go into the system with their password and have it in minutes maybe seconds?

Here's a fact - If you copy and paste an article written by someone that thinks what you do, you think your giving an un-bias view for everyone to make up their minds or to just believe what you believe?

Also keep in mind just because we don’t believe what you think doesn’t make us idiots. We are allowed to view this bill in anyway we want. Just because it’s not your way doesn’t make us wrong. Learn this!

[poolmike]

I've mentioned many times why I support the bill, read back.

Complaining? isnt that why you started this petition?

You mentioned you've given us the "facts". Here’s a couple I have qs. about the facts you've given us..

1. You said Obama WANTS to give free health care to 12 million illegal aliens? Is that all fact? Or, is it the FACT that about 12 million illegal aliens have gotten illegal drivers licenses and illegal SS #'s so with this they "look like American" and may be able to get the coverage? Also, did you mention the fact there’s being steps taken to make sure they don't slip by the system?

2. You mentioned that 50% of your pay checks is going to this bill, Is that a fact?

3. You mentioned that our medical records are going to be stored digitally in DC? Is that a fact? definitely DC? If so, I asked you before, is hiding something like you having allergies or had a broken leg when you were 12 to all doctors enough to stop the healthcare system from running faster, smoother, and giving coverage to all Americans? If you went to the hospital would you rather wait for someone to call to get your information then have it faxed, or wait for someone to go into the system with their password and have it in minutes maybe seconds?

Here's a fact - If you copy and paste an article written by someone that thinks what you do, you think your giving an un-bias view for everyone to make up their minds or to just believe what you believe?

Also keep in mind just because we don’t believe what you think doesn’t make us idiots. We are allowed to view this bill in anyway we want. Just because it’s not your way doesn’t make us wrong. Learn this!

Fact: You don't want to take care of yourself, or you won't take care of yourself. You want someone else to pay for you. Fact.

Spread the wealth around a little....give me half of your Subaru and your income BEFORE you come dipping into my wallet.

[OutlawzPrez]

Fact: I am about free markets & not about the gov't being in control of my healthcare, GM etc.

Fact: President Barack Obama has promised $19 billion dollars of the stimulus package to turn every medical record in the country digital by 2014.

Fact: The Fed Picks Your Treatment! President Obama said: "They're going to have to give up paying for things that don't make them healthier. ... If there's a blue pill and a red pill, and the blue pill is half the price of the red pill and works just as well, why not pay half for the thing that's going to make you well." Does that sound like a government that will stay out of your health care decisions?

Fact: A proposed surtax on the wealthy will actually hit hundreds of thousands of small business owners who are dealing with a recession. If it is enacted, America's top earners and job creators will carry a larger overall tax burden than France, Italy, Germany, Japan, etc, with a total average tax rate greater than 52%. Is that the right recipe for jobs and wage growth???

Fact: Cost or a federal health board could be the deciding factors. President Obama himself admitted this when he said, "Maybe you're better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller," when asked about an elderly woman who needed a pacemaker.

Fact: Rushing It, Not Reading It: We've been down this road before--with the failed stimulus package. Back then, we also heard that we were in a crisis and that we needed to pass a 1,000-plus-page bill in a few hours--without reading it--or we would have 8% unemployment. Well, we know what happened. Now, one Congressman has even said it's pointless to read one of the reform bills without two days and two lawyers to make sense of it. Deception is the only reason to rush through a bill nobody truly understands.

Fact: This unprecedented federal directive not only takes away your individual freedom but could cost you as well. Lawmakers are considering a penalty or tax for those who don't buy government-approved health plans.

Fact: Mostly anyone that can't afford coverage can get it for free through the county assistance office or the state. And you have a better chance if your a minority.

fact: We need to reform the current healthcare system not create a new one by politictions.

[Proven]

Fact: You don't want to take care of yourself, or you won't take care of yourself. You want someone else to pay for you. Fact.

Spread the wealth around a little....give me half of your Subaru and your income BEFORE you come dipping into my wallet.

"Fact" your making assumptions (as do I to be fair) because after all we don't know each other or what fuels each other- and why, we can only assume and hope that our intentions right or wrong are for the better of all people not just ourselves..

[sisforsurfing]

Don't worry, I got your back poolmike. I've always said if you want to defeat a liberal in an arguement "Just show em the facts". And thats what we're doing. but they are still complaining as always lol. They have not showed any effort on as to why they support this bill, except for saying" Its for the good of the country".

Well my fellow socialists. I mean my fellow liberals, what part of the bill did you read or like? Does the good out weigh the bad? Whoever didn't do research or didn't read any part of the bill should not be allowed to have a say in this if they don't understand what their talking about.

If Steven Colbert were saying those bolded parts I'd be laughing out loud.

I mean, I guess you've certainly got a dedication towards your beliefs. Just make sure you don't hit your head while you've got those giant blinders on!

[Proven]

Fact: I am about free markets & not about the gov't being in control of my healthcare, GM etc.

Free market has turned into kaos, clearly. We are in a resession BECAUSE of what the free market has allowed. Not because Obama became president less then a year ago.

Fact: President Barack Obama has promised $19 billion dollars of the stimulus package to turn every medical record in the country digital by 2014.

Because it will increase productivity and in the long run save time / money

Fact: The Fed Picks Your Treatment! President Obama said: "They're going to have to give up paying for things that don't make them healthier. ... If there's a blue pill and a red pill, and the blue pill is half the price of the red pill and works just as well, why not pay half for the thing that's going to make you well." Does that sound like a government that will stay out of your health care decisions?

Sounds like a government buying smart.. So your all for wastefull spending? Blue pill / red pill you think you should buy the more expensive one that does the same thing, Should doctors use the red pill because he plays golf with the red pills CEO?.. If someone doesn't need treatment should we give it to them anyway????? Not sure what your view point is here..

Fact: A proposed surtax on the wealthy will actually hit hundreds of thousands of small business owners who are dealing with a recession. If it is enacted, America's top earners and job creators will carry a larger overall tax burden than France, Italy, Germany, Japan, etc, with a total average tax rate greater than 52%. Is that the right recipe for jobs and wage growth???

It does'nt sound like a recipe for jobs and wage growth, I agree. I don't know the real facts to it though, all's I have to go by is what someone typed.

Fact: Cost or a federal health board could be the deciding factors. President Obama himself admitted this when he said, "Maybe you're better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller," when asked about an elderly woman who needed a pacemaker.

When did he say this? Is there a video? Or an artical writen by Joe the plumber??

Fact: Mostly anyone that can't afford coverage can get it for free through the county assistance office or the state. And you have a better chance if your a minority.

And your Doctor will be Dr. Nick from the simpsons.

fact: We need to reform the current healthcare system not create a new one by politictions.

I actually agree, the bill isnt perfect obviously. It has holes of its own and isnt something that will please everyone. Instead of hitting the healthcare system with one big bang of a bill it should be done in sperts and fine tuned into what this current bill implies (helping americans get the healthcare they need). On the flip side I think reform would take decades to hammer out and just dropping the bomb of a bill is prob. the only real way to get it done..


..........

[OutlawzPrez]

If Steven Colbert were saying those bolded parts I'd be laughing out loud.

I mean, I guess you've certainly got a dedication towards your beliefs. Just make sure you don't hit your head while you've got those giant blinders on!

lol I just get carried away sometimes. I really don't think that about all liberals.

[OutlawzPrez]

Free market has turned into kaos, clearly. We are in a resession BECAUSE of what the free market has allowed. Not because Obama became president less then a year ago.

And you think that the same gov't that bankrupted medicare & social security can run this effiently without doing the same? I mean they ran out of money in one week for a 4 month cash for clunkers program.

Recession happens. "I saw it on a t-shirt once". This happens all over the world in every country. No economy is perfect.


Sounds like a government buying smart.. So your all for wastefull spending? Blue pill / red pill you think you should buy the more expensive one that does the same thing, Should doctors use the red pill because he plays golf with the red pills CEO?.. If someone doesn't need treatment should we give it to them anyway????? Not sure what your view point is here..

But do you really want them to have a say in what medicine you can receive, or you can not receive treatment b/c your too old or it will cost too much from the gov't? Sometimes I'd rather take generic if I'm feeling poor, but whats wrong with names brands? if you feel like dishing it out? The point is that we are allowed to choose. with this bill we will have less limitations then we do now.

When did he say this? Is there a video? Or an artical writen by Joe the plumber??

This is where i got the info from...
http://www.heritage.org

And your Doctor will be Dr. Nick from the simpsons.

You can choose your doctor. Some people may not be able to choose theirs if this healthcare rationing bill passes.


..........

[Proven]

""I mean they ran out of money in one week for a 4 month cash for clunkers program."" < your quote

It was a 1 billion dollar plan projected to run for about 4 months NOT a 4 month plan that ran out of money. big difference, and once again the truth being twisted.

Obama had a plan to stimulate car sales, he put 1 billion in the "Cash for clunkers" plan and - it STIMULATED CAR SALES. It was PROJECTED that the money would be used up in about 4 months. Instead everyone jumped right on it and the money was used up in a week’s time... PLAN WORKED SOONER THEN EXPECTED! How you make that sound like a failed plan is beyond me.

-Dealership sales are at their highest since 2007 (before the media advertised this recession).

-People got new, reliable, safer, with warranty cars that are more fuel-efficient.

-There will soon be 1 billion dollars in circulation being used to buy ****, **** that gets taxed (where the gov. gets some money back)

[Proven]

Your quote - "But do you really want them to have a say in what medicine you can receive, or you can not receive treatment b/c your too old or it will cost too much from the gov't? Sometimes I'd rather take generic if I'm feeling poor, but whats wrong with names brands? if you feel like dishing it out? The point is that we are allowed to choose. with this bill we will have less limitations then we do now"

I understand your point with being "allowed to choose", seriously... But, Im talking about 1 drug named 2 different things because two different companies can make it after the patend runs out. When you buy a drug your buying/using the ingrediants not the name. So you have 1 brand name and 1 knock off name with the same ingrediants... Brand name cost more, knock off name cost less and is same product. Buying the brand named ingrediants after its now being sold cheaper is wastefull spending. If this plan goes threw look at it as the government is not trying to waste the tax payers money on brand names for no reason.

[bastid]

Free market has turned into kaos, clearly. We are in a resession BECAUSE of what the free market has allowed. Not because Obama became president less then a year ago.

You must watch a lot of main stream media.

Plainly put, we are in a recession because some people in banking made some really stupid decisions with derivatives. We are in a recession because people leveraged themselves into way too much debt. We are in a recession because American car makers have been at the mercy of unions and pensions based on horrible decisions made over the last several decades. We are in a recession because people thought that a 20% YOY growth of real estate values was sustainable therefore it would be ok to take a huge Jumbo mortgage or ARM. Consumers brought us into the recession just as much, if not more, than the banks have.


Sounds like a government buying smart.. So your all for wastefull spending? Blue pill / red pill you think you should buy the more expensive one that does the same thing, Should doctors use the red pill because he plays golf with the red pills CEO?.. If someone doesn't need treatment should we give it to them anyway????? Not sure what your view point is here..

Many insurance companies already do this, including the various flavors of Medicare. They are called drug formularies and eligibilities.


When did he say this? Is there a video? Or an artical writen by Joe the plumber??

At some point the government will deny a critical treatment, just as all insurance companies have done in the past.


I think reform would take decades to hammer out and just dropping the bomb of a bill is prob. the only real way to get it done..

I'd rather take decades and actually hammer it out than do a big bang, "shooting from the hip" revolution, and paying for it dearly as a society for decades.

[bastid]

It was a 1 billion dollar plan projected to run for about 4 months NOT a 4 month plan that ran out of money. big difference, and once again the truth being twisted.

I think you guys are missing each other's points. The point is that the government, when estimating costs and time frames is EXTREMELY terrible. If the government is off as much as they were with the "Cash for Clunkers," the spending on healthcare will be off by $19T.

Obama had a plan to stimulate car sales, he put 1 billion in the "Cash for clunkers" plan and - it STIMULATED CAR SALES. It was PROJECTED that the money would be used up in about 4 months. Instead everyone jumped right on it and the money was used up in a week’s time... PLAN WORKED SOONER THEN EXPECTED! How you make that sound like a failed plan is beyond me.

And many people who are trading in cars 5-7 years old will be demolished and the parts scrapped to China instead of making productive use out of these "clunkers."


-Dealership sales are at their highest since 2007 (before the media advertised this recession).

And right after people won't qualify for the $4,500 rebate they will drop back down just as quickly.

[OutlawzPrez]

I think you guys are missing each other's points. The point is that the government, when estimating costs and time frames is EXTREMELY terrible. If the government is off as much as they were with the "Cash for Clunkers," the spending on healthcare will be off by $19T.



Much agreed. I was using that as an example.

So who else signed?!

[Proven]

I think you guys are missing each other's points. The point is that the government, when estimating costs and time frames is EXTREMELY terrible. If the government is off as much as they were with the "Cash for Clunkers," the spending on healthcare will be off by $19T.

They weren't off on estimating cost.. They were off on how long it would take for customers to respond, and use it.

And many people who are trading in cars 5-7 years old will be demolished and the parts scrapped to China instead of making productive use out of these "clunkers."

Theres also 10-15 year old cars being taken off the road "true clunkers". The scraps will be either sold, recycled, or the parts will be re-used. They are sending the parts to china?

And right after people won't qualify for the $4,500 rebate they will drop back down just as quickly.

So it should of never been done? So it was a failure?

.......

[Proven]

Many insurance companies already do this, including the various flavors of Medicare. They are called drug formularies and eligibilities.

So nothing will change? or now ALL insurance companies will be saving money on drugs?

At some point the government will deny a critical treatment, just as all insurance companies have done in the past.

So nothing here will really change either but OP makes it sounds like its a new thing that might happen..

I'd rather take decades and actually hammer it out than do a big bang, "shooting from the hip" revolution, and paying for it dearly as a society for decades.

Fair enough, but I think it needs to be done in a big bang then hammer out the detials as it goes. I'm sure after the bill is pasted whats writen in it will be slowly altered for the better.. If its not, and all the twists of truth and lie's OP is using to get signatures come true I'll be standing right next to him fighting for something thats actually happened / happening.


.................

[poolmike]

""I mean they ran out of money in one week for a 4 month cash for clunkers program."" < your quote

It was a 1 billion dollar plan projected to run for about 4 months NOT a 4 month plan that ran out of money. big difference, and once again the truth being twisted.

Obama had a plan to stimulate car sales, he put 1 billion in the "Cash for clunkers" plan and - it STIMULATED CAR SALES. It was PROJECTED that the money would be used up in about 4 months. Instead everyone jumped right on it and the money was used up in a week’s time... PLAN WORKED SOONER THEN EXPECTED! How you make that sound like a failed plan is beyond me.

-Dealership sales are at their highest since 2007 (before the media advertised this recession).

-People got new, reliable, safer, with warranty cars that are more fuel-efficient.

-There will soon be 1 billion dollars in circulation being used to buy ****, **** that gets taxed (where the gov. gets some money back)


FAIL! It is all borrowed money. Tax it all you want, it is still VALUE-LESS! So the dealers get a quickie, just to get their erections slammed back into the ground by the wonderful gov't that aroused them. Sorry you spent so much time and money on advertising....but we're out of money! The dealers get screwed again.

[bastid]

So nothing will change? or now ALL insurance companies will be saving money on drugs?

No, insurances will often decide whether or not a brand name drug is accepted as part of their coverage compared to a generic-only option. Often times insurances will have schedules by which you can see what drugs are covered or not covered. I don't know what means of measurement or decisions go into their drug schedules, but some carriers are better than others about your choice to go brand vs. generic. It will also largely depend on the plan you select and how much you pay for the benefit of getting brand names vs. generics.

So nothing here will really change either but OP makes it sounds like its a new thing that might happen..

It will likely happen more often. Law of business... You get what you pay for.


Fair enough, but I think it needs to be done in a big bang then hammer out the detials as it goes. I'm sure after the bill is pasted whats writen in it will be slowly altered for the better.. If its not, and all the twists of truth and lie's OP is using to get signatures come true I'll be standing right next to him fighting for something thats actually happened / happening..................

Shooting first and asking questions later with a bill of this magnitude as it is written will semi-permanently screw us for the remainder of our lifetimes.

[cszakolczai]

It seems like Europe is doing well with Universal healthcare, so how about we give it a shot? It seems like to many people are afraid of trying something new. The healthcare won't work flawlessly right away, but in the long run I think this is for the countries benefit.

And don't even start with the whole "Obama is a communist" argument. Or the whole he's a socialist argument.

[bastid]

10 Surprising Facts about American Health Care:

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba649

[OutlawzPrez]

It seems like Europe is doing well with Universal healthcare, so how about we give it a shot? It seems like to many people are afraid of trying something new. The healthcare won't work flawlessly right away, but in the long run I think this is for the countries benefit.

And don't even start with the whole "Obama is a communist" argument. Or the whole he's a socialist argument.

It is a fail in europe. The gov't has the say weather you have the right to live or die. For example... A woman with level four breast cancer will not get treated because the gov't can not afford to treat her. They will just let her die b/c it is a waste of money in their eyes. They ration their healthcare. That is no good. Some hospitals aren't open 24hrs because of gov't rationing. And there are long waits for doctor appts & medical procedures b/c of universal healthcare which is a fail. Ask anyone from europe or canada, they will tell you how horrible it is. I should know, since I do have family in Canada & friends in Europe.

[OutlawzPrez]

10 Surprising Facts about American Health Care:

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba649

Fact: Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers.[1] Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the United States, and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the U.K. and 457 percent higher in Norway. The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher.

BECAUSE THEIR GOV'T IS RATIONING THEIR HEALTHCARE. WHO REALLY WANTS THIS? NOT ME OR ANYONE THAT HAS COMMON SENSE.

[Seven]

I wish this place had a separate political forum for **** like this.
I don't preach gun control here... why you preaching healthcare?

[OutlawzPrez]

You go ahead & preach it brother!

... WHO ELSE SIGNED?

[OutlawzPrez]

.................

Also, Most doctors in canada do NOT receive an annual salary, but receive a fee per visit or service. And there are laws prohibiting private health care in some provinces.

So do you want the go'vt telling doctors what they can make & who isn't allowed to get healthcare on their own?

[cszakolczai]

It is a fail in europe. The gov't has the say weather you have the right to live or die. For example... A woman with level four breast cancer will not get treated because the gov't can not afford to treat her. They will just let her die b/c it is a waste of money in their eyes. They ration their healthcare. That is no good. Some hospitals aren't open 24hrs because of gov't rationing. And there are long waits for doctor appts & medical procedures b/c of universal healthcare which is a fail. Ask anyone from europe or canada, they will tell you how horrible it is. I should know, since I do have family in Canada & friends in Europe.

So instead of the government, you'd rather have a bunch of people who make their decision based on how much money you have.

Also that same woman who has level 4 breast cancer won't get treated by her insurance company because... "they can't afford to treat her"

Yeah well I was born in Europe and lived there and travel back there all the time. I speak with my family about this and they have no complaints. I don't need "friends" to tell me, when I've traveled to Europe, gotten really sick from something I ate, and I was still treated. I showed my passport that I was a citizen and received treatment without question. Now in the USA, I would have been looked at and told to go away. If I didnt recieve treatment things could have gotten much worse.

Its your own opinion that universal healthcare does not work, but let me be someone who says it does. Obama may not be going about it in the right way, but dont be so sure of your arguments when you've never experienced things first hand.

[OutlawzPrez]

So instead of the government, you'd rather have a bunch of people who make their decision based on how much money you have.

Hold on... I hope your not talking about the same gov't that bankrupted social security & medicare?! People have the right to choose which coverages they have & what doctor they see. Is there something wrong weith that?

Also that same woman who has level 4 breast cancer won't get treated by her insurance company because... "they can't afford to treat her"

My elderly griend has that & she is getting treated by her insurance which may end up saving her life. If this woman was on Obama healthcare she would not be treated. Oh wait, they will give her pain pills & a therapist to help her struggle with her illness until she dies. Screw that!

Yeah well I was born in Europe and lived there and travel back there all the time. I speak with my family about this and they have no complaints. I don't need "friends" to tell me, when I've traveled to Europe, gotten really sick from something I ate, and I was still treated. I showed my passport that I was a citizen and received treatment without question. Now in the USA, I would have been looked at and told to go away. If I didnt recieve treatment things could have gotten much worse.

FACT: You can go in any hospital in the US & by law they are not allowed to turn you away... OWNED!

Its your own opinion that universal healthcare does not work, but let me be someone who says it does. Obama may not be going about it in the right way, but dont be so sure of your arguments when you've never experienced things first hand.

I do agree also that Obama is going about it the wrong way. What we really need to do is reform our current system.

[Proven]

Fact: Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers.[1] Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the United States, and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the U.K. and 457 percent higher in Norway. The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher.

BECAUSE THEIR GOV'T IS RATIONING THEIR HEALTHCARE. WHO REALLY WANTS THIS? NOT ME OR ANYONE THAT HAS COMMON SENSE.

Is Obama's healthcare bill a photocopy of the ones over seas? Or will ours be different? Is Obama proposing that we do the same EXACT thing they are doing over seas specifically? Do the doctors, hospitals, drug companies have access to all the technology we do? What do you think the survival rate for cancer is without any health coverage? Also just to mention the stats you gave were only possible because cancer patients are on digital files (something else your against that’s resourceful)

[OutlawzPrez]

Is Obama's healthcare bill a photocopy of the ones over seas? Or will ours be different? Is Obama proposing that we do the same EXACT thing they are doing over seas specifically? Do the doctors, hospitals, drug companies have access to all the technology we do? What do you think the survival rate for cancer is without any health coverage? Also just to mention the stats you gave were only possible because cancer patients are on digital files (something else your against that’s resourceful)

If you don't have healthcare or don't want it just so you can save money the gov't will fine you $2500 yearly. Do you agree with that? This is America, NOT Europe. We don't want our rights takin away by the gov't. We want a choice. Not a board of beurocrats in Washinton deciding wheater or not I'm too old to recieve treatment.

[cszakolczai]

So instead of the government, you'd rather have a bunch of people who make their decision based on how much money you have.

Hold on... I hope your not talking about the same gov't that bankrupted social security & medicare?! People have the right to choose which coverages they have & what doctor they see. Is there something wrong weith that?

I don't understand where you think that with Universal Healthcare you all of a sudden loose every right you have. Universal Healthcare does not by any stretch of the imagination mean the US turns into Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union.



Also that same woman who has level 4 breast cancer won't get treated by her insurance company because... "they can't afford to treat her"

My elderly griend has that & she is getting treated by her insurance which may end up saving her life. If this woman was on Obama healthcare she would not be treated. Oh wait, they will give her pain pills & a therapist to help her struggle with her illness until she dies. Screw that!

You know that they would let her die because... you can predict the future? Maybe I missed the speech where Obama said that anyone with stage 4 cancer would be put on pain killers and allowed to die.




Yeah well I was born in Europe and lived there and travel back there all the time. I speak with my family about this and they have no complaints. I don't need "friends" to tell me, when I've traveled to Europe, gotten really sick from something I ate, and I was still treated. I showed my passport that I was a citizen and received treatment without question. Now in the USA, I would have been looked at and told to go away. If I didnt recieve treatment things could have gotten much worse.

FACT: You can go in any hospital in the US & by law they are not allowed to turn you away... OWNED!

Fact: it was a figure of speech I would be turned down, but seriously try it sometime and see how well it works saying you have no health insurance and that your stomach really hurts. You know what they say? "you'll be ok, go get some gatorade or something" yeah well that stomach ache turned into a lot more. You know how I know this? I'll give you one guess. And this was with healthcare, but apparently there were more important patients to attend to. So no, I'm not OWNED!

Oh and as I said, you are so sure about your information yet you obviously don't really know universal healthcare.

[OutlawzPrez]

Fact: A proposed surtax on the wealthy will actually hit hundreds of thousands of small business owners who are dealing with a recession. If it is enacted, America's top earners and job creators will carry a larger overall tax burden than France, Italy, Germany, Japan, etc, with a total average tax rate greater than 52%. Is that the right recipe for jobs and wage growth???

Fact: Cost or a federal health board could be the deciding factors. President Obama himself admitted this when he said, "Maybe you're better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller," when asked about an elderly woman who needed a pacemaker.

Fact: Rushing It, Not Reading It: We've been down this road before--with the failed stimulus package. Back then, we also heard that we were in a crisis and that we needed to pass a 1,000-plus-page bill in a few hours--without reading it--or we would have 8% unemployment. Well, we know what happened. Now, one Congressman has even said it's pointless to read one of the reform bills without two days and two lawyers to make sense of it. Deception is the only reason to rush through a bill nobody truly understands.

Fact: This unprecedented federal directive not only takes away your individual freedom but could cost you as well. Lawmakers are considering a penalty or tax for those who don't buy government-approved health plans.

[cszakolczai]

Oh and just to add, as I said, I don't agree with everything Obama is doing, but the idea is right and healthcare reform must take place.

[DaBombDiggidy]

we just need to agree there needs to be reform these companies are lining their pockets making record profit off of YOUR HEALTH. and whats all this thinking that with universal health care all of these companies will go away. i vote for universal health care but that doesnt mean im getting rid of my blue cross blue shield. i vote yes for the middle class that needs insurance, because the rich get the BEST care out there and the poor get govt. programs when its needed. the middle class takes the burdon in this system.

and can everyone stop saying the package failed... its doing alot of good. yes it was not perfect but last i checked the stock market is above 9200 for the first time since the recession hit.

[CleanNeon98]

Chris, in theory it's good but so was communism.

[OutlawzPrez]

Oh and just to add, as I said, I don't agree with everything Obama is doing, but the idea is right and healthcare reform must take place.

I'm glad that we can somewhat agree on this lol

we just need to agree there needs to be reform these companies are lining their profits making record profit off of YOUR HEALTH. and whats all this thinking that with universal health care all of these companies will go away. i vote for universal health care but that doesnt mean im getting rid of my blue cross blue shield. i vote yes for the middle class that needs insurance, because the rich get the BEST care out there and the poor get govt. programs when its needed. the middle class takes the burdon in this system.

I do not agree that we need socialized healthcare, but I do agree that we need to reform the current system.

[cszakolczai]

No, Communism was never a good theory.

[DaBombDiggidy]

communism is just a theory and should be kept as that, it was never truely achieved. not by hitler, stalin, lenin, or kronstadt. it had ideals of communism but was only a dictatorship.

[OutlawzPrez]

Join the other 1021310 people who have signed this petition!

www.freeOurHealthcareNow.com

[bastid]

and can everyone stop saying the package failed... its doing alot of good. yes it was not perfect but last i checked the stock market is above 9200 for the first time since the recession hit.

It failed, it failed, it failed. As of a month ago only 4% of the stimulus money was being spent, and people are still discussing the idea of a second stimulus. Unemployment is approaching 10%, and if you calculate it based on how it was done during the great depression, we're really at 17-18% unemployment.

The 9,200 DOW is market manipulation. This could go one of 2 ways.

1. The reality of the situation can start getting better and catch up to the perception at this point. This will take a while. Employment is a leading indicator here, and job loss is still growing greater than expected.

2. People will start seeing the reality of the situation is less than the perception and the DOW will tank (again).

[Scapegoat]

It failed, it failed, it failed. As of a month ago only 4% of the stimulus money was being spent, and people are still discussing the idea of a second stimulus. Unemployment is approaching 10%, and if you calculate it based on how it was done during the great depression, we're really at 17-18% unemployment.

The 9,200 DOW is market manipulation. This could go one of 2 ways.

1. The reality of the situation can start getting better and catch up to the perception at this point. This will take a while. Employment is a leading indicator here, and job loss is still growing greater than expected.

2. People will start seeing the reality of the situation is less than the perception and the DOW will tank (again).

people never saw the reality of the situation. the market tanked because they were being told it was and stopped spending. yes there were a number, and still are a number, of issues that need to be resolved.

at this point, the best solution to this is to let people think the market is turning around and it will because people will believe it... just like they believed billions of dollars in "stimulus" from a government in trillions of dollars of debt would help the situation.

i don't think the market was ever as bad as we were told it was... certainly not bad enough to warrant billions of dollars in spending, useless bail outs, etc...

[ASIAN JUL]

I just have one thing to say re: being denied help based on certain factors. Please don't make it sound like this is some new way of thinking created by the government for their plan to create universal health care. This line of thinking is not new. Insurance companies are guilty of it as well. People die in hospitals everyday waiting for transplant surgeries that never come. Hospitals can and will deny you as well.

People are criticizing Obama for his comment re: the 105 year old woman. He is not a medical professional, he had no place in saying what he said. But I'm pretty certain that were it an organ transplant she needed, his comments would not be out of line. There are certain procedures where risk heavily outweighs the benefits. Okay, you have kidney failure. Die tomorrow on the table, die next week from an infection, or die in a year. I'm sure the government would weigh these risks and benefits the same way hospitals and insurance companies are doing now. I'm not saying I agree with this concept at all, by the way, but just saying that some people sound outraged by it as if something being proposed is some radical new way of thinking.

What should we do? I have no idea, I don't have the answers. Do I believe that some people are in need of more help? Yes. Do I believe everyone should have help? No. But I believe children should be covered. A 6 year old child dying of cancer can not help the fact that their parents are too poor OR lazy, etc. to afford health care for them. What are your thoughts on that?

[OutlawzPrez]

But I believe children should be covered. A 6 year old child dying of cancer can not help the fact that their parents are too poor OR lazy, etc. to afford health care for them. What are your thoughts on that?

Thats not true. Pennsylvania has a program to provide health insurance to ALL uninsured children and teens who are not eligible for or enrolled in Medical Assistance.

Parents may think their kids can't get CHIP because they make too much money. Not true! No family makes too much money for CHIP because there is no income limit.

[igo4bmx]

Thats not true. Pennsylvania has a program to provide health insurance to ALL uninsured children and teens who are not eligible for or enrolled in Medical Assistance.

Parents may think their kids can't get CHIP because they make too much money. Not true! No family makes too much money for CHIP because there is no income limit.

you spitting out info like crazy- u work in healthcare or something?

[OutlawzPrez]

you spitting out info like crazy- u work in healthcare or something?

lol na. I do have some family members in the healthcare field though. I've mostly just done alot of research on this. :banana:

[Renegade_]

It is a fail in europe. The gov't has the say weather you have the right to live or die.
I'm not even going to read the rest of your post because you have no idea how health care in europe works.

I lived there for many years... its awesome. I just said, hey I need to go to the doctor and walked out the door and went to the office of my family doctor.

Bam, that was it. Separated my bottom lip and need to get it stitched/re-attached? I was out in 45 minutes. Not kidding. Didn't pay a cent.

Health care supplied by the government is going to be no different than health care supplied by the companies. The government is almost a company now, getting their hands in a lot of stuff... Its not going to be different, you can just get insurance from the government now.

Stay with whatever health care you want, no one is going to force this on you. They aren't going to make you get health care, no matter how determined any rogue media source is to make you believe that. No one here has read the entire bill.

EVERYONE here is uninformed, including myself. However, I think I can comment somewhat on how government run health care effects the patient because I have lived in the system. One side of the american culture sounds like a bunch of paranoid schizo-level teenagers without any true appreciation for the sometimes beneficent attitude certain people have. You think Obama is going to put out a plan to ruin the country? He's smarter than whoever is reading this post right now; i.e. you. He's president for a reason.

The passive, give me money, make my **** free attitude that many people have hopelessly adopted won't work either. Nothing will get done that way.

However, there's the damn problem. Both sides; anyone that labels a group outside of their respective ideology is polarizing American politics and makes it easier for dissent and malevolent disposition to hinder the progress that America has the potential to strive for and easily achieve. How about we all just kick some ass by using properly actualized economic and political theory and giving the country the best chance to really turn **** around. Not this friedmanistic, completely forceful system which is completely ruthless and volative. Not keynesian, with large government involvement on all fronts... get an idiot at the helm and the entire system crashes. Communist? Forget it, doesn't work, we all know that. Time to find a middle ground. Is this administration doing a mild, science based approach? Not yet, I don't see it, but that doesn't mean that I can't be hopeful.

[bastid]

Health care supplied by the government is going to be no different than health care supplied by the companies. The government is almost a company now, getting their hands in a lot of stuff... Its not going to be different, you can just get insurance from the government now.

I don't think I would have a problem with a government insurance option as long as it stayed completely separate from the private industry. The only caveat is I don't pay a single penny to subsidize it.

They aren't going to make you get health care, no matter how determined any rogue media source is to make you believe that. No one here has read the entire bill.

Unless the "$2,500" per person fine makes it into the final bill for those who elect to not get any type of coverage.

He's smarter than whoever is reading this post right now; i.e. you. He's president for a reason.

Obama won a beauty contest on the coattails of wildly popular marketing, a brilliant campaign team, and blatant pie in the sky ideas without disclosing the implications (additional taxes on the middle class, not reading legislation before forcing it toward a decision, making some of the biggest changes to America EVER without even a general consensus among the people). So, without knowing anything about the people who are reading this thread, you are also guilty of being "uninformed." If Obama were a brilliant man, he wouldn't need advisers or a teleprompter to communicate his agenda.

The passive, give me money, make my **** free attitude that many people have hopelessly adopted won't work either. Nothing will get done that way.

I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, there are many people who voted for Obama based on the idea that they will get handouts.

Both sides; anyone that labels a group outside of their respective ideology is polarizing American politics and makes it easier for dissent and malevolent disposition to hinder the progress that America has the potential to strive for and easily achieve.

Perhaps this is why they are brushing off the thousands of people attending these town hall meetings totally flogging their "representatives" over what's happening in Washington as "paid plants from the insurance industry." Many Repubs are guilty of the same thing on a different parallel.

How about we all just kick some ass by using properly actualized economic and political theory and giving the country the best chance to really turn **** around. Not this friedmanistic, completely forceful system which is completely ruthless and volative. Not keynesian, with large government involvement on all fronts... get an idiot at the helm and the entire system crashes. Communist? Forget it, doesn't work, we all know that. Time to find a middle ground. Is this administration doing a mild, science based approach? Not yet, I don't see it, but that doesn't mean that I can't be hopeful.

I think we are all hopeful at this point. It's clear we the people have zero control of the reigns at this point short of widespread organizational protests against the current way the gov't operates.

Good points.

[OutlawzPrez]

I'm not even going to read the rest of your post because you have no idea how health care in europe works.

I lived there for many years... its awesome. I just said, hey I need to go to the doctor and walked out the door and went to the office of my family doctor.

Bam, that was it. Separated my bottom lip and need to get it stitched/re-attached? I was out in 45 minutes. Not kidding. Didn't pay a cent.

Health care supplied by the government is going to be no different than health care supplied by the companies. The government is almost a company now, getting their hands in a lot of stuff... Its not going to be different, you can just get insurance from the government now.

Stay with whatever health care you want, no one is going to force this on you. They aren't going to make you get health care, no matter how determined any rogue media source is to make you believe that. No one here has read the entire bill.

EVERYONE here is uninformed, including myself. However, I think I can comment somewhat on how government run health care effects the patient because I have lived in the system. One side of the american culture sounds like a bunch of paranoid schizo-level teenagers without any true appreciation for the sometimes beneficent attitude certain people have. You think Obama is going to put out a plan to ruin the country? He's smarter than whoever is reading this post right now; i.e. you. He's president for a reason.

The passive, give me money, make my **** free attitude that many people have hopelessly adopted won't work either. Nothing will get done that way.

However, there's the damn problem. Both sides; anyone that labels a group outside of their respective ideology is polarizing American politics and makes it easier for dissent and malevolent disposition to hinder the progress that America has the potential to strive for and easily achieve. How about we all just kick some ass by using properly actualized economic and political theory and giving the country the best chance to really turn **** around. Not this friedmanistic, completely forceful system which is completely ruthless and volative. Not keynesian, with large government involvement on all fronts... get an idiot at the helm and the entire system crashes. Communist? Forget it, doesn't work, we all know that. Time to find a middle ground. Is this administration doing a mild, science based approach? Not yet, I don't see it, but that doesn't mean that I can't be hopeful.

All German workers pay about 8 percent of their gross income for healhcare.

So if I live in germany & I make a gross income of $50,000 a year then that means that I am taxed $4,000 yearly or a little over $333 a month. This is insane! So the more money I make, the more I will get taxed. So if I make $250,000 a year then I'll be taxed $20,000 or a little over $1,666 monthly. Does that sound fair? No, I don't think so.

If I so choose to get my own insurance I can "Choose" how much I want to spend on it. I can get a basic policy for like $70 bucks a month if I wanted too. or get a great policy for $300.

[Proven]

Also, Most doctors in canada do NOT receive an annual salary, but receive a fee per visit or service. And there are laws prohibiting private health care in some provinces.

So do you want the go'vt telling doctors what they can make & who isn't allowed to get healthcare on their own?

I guess if your a Doctor don't move to canada then? Is this exactly how its going to be here in the US also for a fact? Or you just worried that it might be?

[Proven]

your fact OP- FACT: You can go in any hospital in the US & by law they are not allowed to turn you away... OWNED!

Yeah, no kidding, I guess you forgot that by law they can also charge 15K for a broken leg, keep you an extra night for fun, give you the more expensive brand of the same exact drugs, wrap your leg in the more expensive casting material. Forget about that?

[Proven]

All German workers pay about 8 percent of their gross income for healhcare.

So if I live in germany & I make a gross income of $50,000 a year then that means that I am taxed $4,000 yearly or a little over $333 a month. This is insane! So the more money I make, the more I will get taxed. So if I make $250,000 a year then I'll be taxed $20,000 or a little over $1,666 monthly. Does that sound fair? No, I don't think so.

If I so choose to get my own insurance I can "Choose" how much I want to spend on it. I can get a basic policy for like $70 bucks a month if I wanted too. or get a great policy for $300.

Dont move to Germany??

[Proven]

you spitting out info like crazy- u work in healthcare or something?

No, he reads alot of republican or anti-Obama articals, and believes them, thats all.

[bastid]

No, he reads alot of republican or anti-Obama articals, and believes them, thats all.

Which is no more or less wrong than not reading a bill and believing what is said by Mr. Obama and his cronies.

[SuperCoyle]

I hate when they call it "Free". Nothing is free... we already have Medicare and Medicaid. Why should I pay for my neighbor who wants to have 12 kids? Insurance is the spread of cost to a larger group. The biggest health provider I work for blue cross is a non-profit organization.

[CleanNeon98]

No, he reads alot of republican or anti-Obama articals, and believes them, thats all.

Which is no more or less wrong than not reading a bill and believing what is said by Mr. Obama and his cronies.
Took the words right out of my mouth.

[Proven]

Which is no more or less wrong than not reading a bill and believing what is said by Mr. Obama and his cronies.

Fair enough, not many people have read the bill. I would bet more then half that signed the petition didn't read it at all because they felt "if OP typed it, it must be true". You'll notice OP has alot of twisted truth fueling his cause. What I did was "fact check" and found a lot his information to be completely bias, twisted truth, written by people that just don’t like Obama, by republicans, or based on what other countries are like.

Like I mentioned before Obama haters have put a lot of un-true fear statements into the readers minds to direct the readers thought train. Its funny because these are the same people saying others are the sheep, its all pathetic. All's I've done in here was throw out the other side of the story. Unfortunately people have already signed.

[OutlawzPrez]

I hate when they call it "Free". Nothing is free... we already have Medicare and Medicaid. Why should I pay for my neighbor who wants to have 12 kids? Insurance is the spread of cost to a larger group. The biggest health provider I work for blue cross is a non-profit organization.

Bingo!

[OutlawzPrez]

Another fact: Well the US government directly covers 27.8% of the population through health care programs for the elderly, disabled, military service families and veterans, children, and some of the poor, through Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, and TRICARE. Federal law ensures public access to emergency services regardless of ability to pay. So why should money come out of my hard earned paycheck to pay for everyone else?

With freedom comes responsability. I guess America doesn't remember what JFK said???? Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. Well Obama is doing the complete opposite.

[OutlawzPrez]

Fair enough, not many people have read the bill. I would bet more then half that signed the petition didn't read it at all because they felt "if OP typed it, it must be true". You'll notice OP has alot of twisted truth fueling his cause. What I did was "fact check" and found a lot his information to be completely bias, twisted truth, written by people that just don’t like Obama, by republicans, or based on what other countries are like.

Like I mentioned before Obama haters have put a lot of un-true fear statements into the readers minds to direct the readers thought train. Its funny because these are the same people saying others are the sheep, its all pathetic. All's I've done in here was throw out the other side of the story. Unfortunately people have already signed.

Calm down there buddy. I enjoy debating with you but lets not make it personal.

[Z31Fanatic]

So we are the mob now :rotfl::rotfl:


so the Democrats are holding these town hall meetings about this issue accross America, & they're getting a hard time from many people. Instead of listening to the people, which is what these meetings are for, the Democrats are trying to demonize anybody who doesn't agree with this ridiculous plan.

This is an ad the DNC are running:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtTBkxvBq88&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsoccer24-7.com%2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3Fp%3D3348564%26pos ted%3D1&feature=player_embedded

BTW, the White House is asking all you faithful smearers to report anything you hear that doesn't agree with El Presidente to the White House. Here's the special e mail address to use:

flag@whitehouse.gov

[OutlawzPrez]

So we are the mob now :rotfl::rotfl:


so the Democrats are holding these town hall meetings about this issue accross America, & they're getting a hard time from many people. Instead of listening to the people, which is what these meetings are for, the Democrats are trying to demonize anybody who doesn't agree with this ridiculous plan.

This is an ad the DNC are running:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtTBkxvBq88&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsoccer24-7.com%2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3Fp%3D3348564%26pos ted%3D1&feature=player_embedded

BTW, the White House is asking all you faithful smearers to report anything you hear that doesn't agree with El Presidente to the White House. Here's the special e mail address to use:

flag@whitehouse.gov

THE WHITE HOUSE IS ASKING PEOPLE TO REPORT PEOPLE WHO OPPOSE OBAMA'S HEALTHCARE PLAN. THEY'RE ASKING THAT YOU REPORT PEOPLE WHO SEND OUT EMAILS OR POST ON WEB SITES AGAINST IT.

This is what is posted right now on the White House web site:

Scary chain emails and videos are starting to percolate on the internet, breathlessly claiming, for example, to "uncover" the truth about the President’s health insurance reform positions.

In this video, Linda Douglass, the communications director for the White House’s Health Reform Office, addresses one example that makes it look like the President intends to "eliminate" private coverage, when the reality couldn’t be further from the truth.

For the record, the President has consistently said that if you like your insurance plan, your doctor, or both, you will be able to keep them. He has even proposed eight consumer protections relating specifically to the health insurance industry.

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.

[Z31Fanatic]

I don't seem to find the page. Do you have it?

[cszakolczai]

Outlawzprez, your acting like a raving lunatic now and are seriously all over the place. You make the statement that healthcare in Europe has failed but you have no idea if it has failed or succeeded because you've never experienced it!

You bash the Obama plan and rave about people signing this petition but in the end you don't have any experience with universal healthcare, so how can you be against something you know nothing about? Please don't tell me that Glen Beck persuaded you to go off on this rant.

Here's another fact for you seeing as how you like throwing them out...

"In 2008, total national health expenditures were expected to rise 6.9 percent -- two times the rate of inflation.1 Total spending was $2.4 TRILLION in 2007, or $7900 per person1. Total health care spending represented 17 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP).

U.S. health care spending is expected to increase at similar levels for the next decade reaching $4.3 TRILLION in 2017, or 20 percent of GDP"

Yeah our healthcare system works fine, so we should all sign this petition to stop universal healthcare or stop any reform that comes from the Obama plan. As I said, I don't agree with everything the president is doing, but your just raving now without having the knowledge to do so.

And before you bring up your "friends" in Canada statement again, realize that there are a couple of people in this thread who don't just have people they know who've experienced universal healthcare, but instead have experienced it for themselves.

[cszakolczai]

I haven't been able to find the White House saying to report any spam emails or anything like that. I'm on the White House Press Release email so I get every transcript emailed to me the second they release a statement.

[OutlawzPrez]

I haven't been able to find the White House saying to report any spam emails or anything like that. I'm on the White House Press Release email so I get every transcript emailed to me the second they release a statement.

I don't seem to find the page. Do you have it?

Here ya go buddy.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things/

[OutlawzPrez]

Outlawzprez, your acting like a raving lunatic now and are seriously all over the place. You make the statement that healthcare in Europe has failed but you have no idea if it has failed or succeeded because you've never experienced it!

You bash the Obama plan and rave about people signing this petition but in the end you don't have any experience with universal healthcare, so how can you be against something you know nothing about? Please don't tell me that Glen Beck persuaded you to go off on this rant.

Here's another fact for you seeing as how you like throwing them out...

"In 2008, total national health expenditures were expected to rise 6.9 percent -- two times the rate of inflation.1 Total spending was $2.4 TRILLION in 2007, or $7900 per person1. Total health care spending represented 17 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP).

U.S. health care spending is expected to increase at similar levels for the next decade reaching $4.3 TRILLION in 2017, or 20 percent of GDP"

Yeah our healthcare system works fine, so we should all sign this petition to stop universal healthcare or stop any reform that comes from the Obama plan. As I said, I don't agree with everything the president is doing, but your just raving now without having the knowledge to do so.

And before you bring up your "friends" in Canada statement again, realize that there are a couple of people in this thread who don't just have people they know who've experienced universal healthcare, but instead have experienced it for themselves.

So do you really want the gov't taking money out of your paycheck to fund this? Even if I choose NOT to enroll they will still tax me & give me a penalty of $2500 yearly if I don't have private or public. We as Americans do NOT want the gov't dictating our lives. We have alot more benefits in America through our current system. Although there are many flaws like any system, we need to reform the current system.

[OutlawzPrez]

Outlawzprez, your acting like a raving lunatic now and are seriously all over the place. You make the statement that healthcare in Europe has failed but you have no idea if it has failed or succeeded because you've never experienced it!


I'm just going by the facts my friend. I can give you more if you'd like?

[Proven]

Calm down there buddy. I enjoy debating with you but lets not make it personal.

Your right, I apologize! (seriously)

[Proven]

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.

Yes, they are trying to stop the people that only disagree with the bill because they are republican, or just don't like Obama. They are trying to stop the "disinformation" out there to gain followers, or get people to sign petitions under false truth.

Obama is trying to get the chance to speak HIS SIDE rather then everyone listen to bias information and think its 100% true. Hopefully people are logical enough to wait till they hear both sides of the story before making a big mistake and stoping something good.

[Proven]

I'm just going by the facts my friend. I can give you more if you'd like?

Id like more. :mrgreen:

[Proven]

Here ya go buddy.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things/

You do realize in that video shes talking about people doing what your doing right? Good video, EVERYONE should watch it before signing this petition.

[Z31Fanatic]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Were you reported to the government when you and your fellow democrats protested against the war in Iraq?

Obama could bring slavery back but you would still approve of his job. That's what you seem like to me.
If you are not disgusted by the DNC ad and by what the white house wants you to do then I can say you are simply sick.

[bastid]

Starting a few days ago, proponents of the bill have been calling this the "Health Insurance Bill" rather than "Health Care Bill." However, it still doesn't address anything that will ultimately fix healthcare system. All it does is set up a public payer option for the uninsured with a lot of excess control over everyone else. The bigger picture is that the tax burden on the top 1% exceeded all the bottom 95% combined for the first time ever in 2008. By taking away from 1% of the electorate and giving to the 95%, you secure tons of votes for the democratic party.

There are many things that need to be done in conjunction to smart reform of the current system. In the words of a protester at a town hall in Utica, NY: "You are trying to take 3-4 weeks to cram this down our throats when it took President Obama 6 months to decide what kind of dog he wanted for his little girls?"

[Proven]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Were you reported to the government when you and your fellow democrats protested against the war in Iraq?

Obama could bring slavery back but you would still approve of his job. That's what you seem like to me.
If you are not disgusted by the DNC ad and by what the white house wants you to do then I can say you are simply sick.

Most likely the reason Obama wants to gather this gossip is to clear the air. The republicans love to throw out twisted truth and in many cases twisted truth that creates angry mobs. Remember Sarah Palin planting the seed that Obama was a terrorist which created death threats towards him? There was a guy yelling "kill him" at one of her rallies and "Obama bin laden" at one of McCains.. The same twisted truth is being used now to create these angry mobs like "Obama wants to give 12 million illegal aliens free health coverage and we are paying for it" or "Obama want's to take 50% of my check" (like OP made up).. None of which are true but very good statements to gain followers.

I was discusted by DNC video but not like you were, all's I saw was a bunch of mis-informed sheep / puppets created by lie's and mistruth by someone who wants their way by any means. I agree with the video that it needs to stop.

(and for the record if Obama wanted to bring back slavery I would be first in line protesting against him)

[poolmike]

Most likely the reason Obama wants to gather this gossip is to clear the air. The republicans love to throw out twisted truth and in many cases twisted truth that creates angry mobs. Remember Sarah Palin planting the seed that Obama was a terrorist which created death threats towards him? There was a guy yelling "kill him" at one of her rallies and "Obama bin laden" at one of McCains.. The same twisted truth is being used now to create these angry mobs like "Obama wants to give 12 million illegal aliens free health coverage and we are paying for it" or "Obama want's to take 50% of my check" (like OP made up).. None of which are true but very good statements to gain followers.

I was discusted by DNC video but not like you were, all's I saw was a bunch of mis-informed sheep / puppets created by lie's and mistruth by someone who wants their way by any means. I agree with the video that it needs to stop.

(and for the record if Obama wanted to bring back slavery I would be first in line protesting against him)


He is a terrorist. He is doing a fine job of wrecking our country.

[cszakolczai]

He is a terrorist. He is doing a fine job of wrecking our country.

Wow, that sums up this thread and the arguments made by the people against this plan perfectly.

Its funny how he is "wrecking our country" yet when Bush was in office I didn't see any threads or negative posts being made about him from you. Sorry but Bush didn't really advance our country in any way possible, I might be so bold to say that he started the wrecking process.

[sisforsurfing]

Here ya go buddy.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things/

They're asking people to inform them when people are spreading untruths so that they can respond to them. In an age where technology makes it so easy to spread information (and misinformation), I see nothing at all wrong with this. Would you like to see an example of someone taking something out of context and completely changing the message? I'll show you!

THE WHITE HOUSE IS ASKING PEOPLE TO REPORT PEOPLE WHO OPPOSE OBAMA'S HEALTHCARE PLAN. THEY'RE ASKING THAT YOU REPORT PEOPLE WHO SEND OUT EMAILS OR POST ON WEB SITES AGAINST IT.

This is the type of manipulation that they're talking about. You've successfully shown why it's necessary, though.

Trust me, as a journalist I am fully behind free speech and believe that people should be able to say what they feel. However, I feel that people should be responsible enough to make sure that they don't pass off opinion as fact, or misconstrue bits and pieces of speech to mean things that they never meant in promotion of personal opinion.

[bastid]

Wow, that sums up this thread and the arguments made by the people against this plan perfectly.

This is quite possibly one of the most ignorant replies I've ever seen on any message board, ever.

[cszakolczai]

This is quite possibly one of the most ignorant replies I've ever seen on any message board, ever.

So Calling our president a terrorist isn't ignorant? Sorry but this thread was a fairly clean debate and was filled with facts and peoples personal experiences up until the statement was made he is a terrorist. But maybe I should have chosen my words a little better and just said, that his response was "ignorant"

[bastid]

So Calling our president a terrorist isn't ignorant? Sorry but this thread was a fairly clean debate and was filled with facts and peoples personal experiences up until the statement was made he is a terrorist. But maybe I should have chosen my words a little better and just said, that his response was "ignorant"

I think it's fair for you to disagree with someone's opinions. However, to lump everyone on the "other side of the fence" into one summary based on 1 person's reply is not only unfair, but it also reflects poorly on your ability to articulate your points in a rational/civil debate - which up until the last reply I felt you have done a good job doing so.

All crying aside, this is probably one of the best discussions in the history of TST. Loves me some good debate...

[cszakolczai]

I think it's fair for you to disagree with someone's opinions. However, to lump everyone on the "other side of the fence" into one summary based on 1 person's reply is not only unfair, but it also reflects poorly on your ability to articulate your points in a rational/civil debate - which up until the last reply I felt you have done a good job doing so.

All crying aside, this is probably one of the best discussions in the history of TST. Loves me some good debate...



I know I know, I actually agree with you on that, I shouldn't have lumped everyone together, but when a statement like that is made which is so irrational and for lack of a better word, ignorant. I just get really fed up. Because as you've said the discussion/debate has been moving along well with facts and personal experiences having been brought forward and then the statement that he's a terrorist is made. Just a little ridiculous, but yes I'll admit my statement was wrong in lumping everyone together. Its not fair to categorize a group when one person makes an outlandish statement with no facts behind it... continue discussion.

edit** and yeah I agree with you again, this is probably one of the best discussion in the history of TST... and I do loves me some good debate as well, and your car :)

[bastid]

I know I know, I actually agree with you on that, I shouldn't have lumped everyone together, but when a statement like that is made which is so irrational and for lack of a better word, ignorant. I just get really fed up. Because as you've said the discussion/debate has been moving along well with facts and personal experiences having been brought forward and then the statement that he's a terrorist is made. Just a little ridiculous, but yes I'll admit my statement was wrong in lumping everyone together. Its not fair to categorize a group when one person makes an outlandish statement with no facts behind it... continue discussion.

edit** and yeah I agree with you again, this is probably one of the best discussion in the history of TST... and I do loves me some good debate as well, and your car :)

Everyone is fed up. Coming from someone who negotiates serious contracts all the time, letting emotion seep into a debate, argument, or negotiation will not only cloud your own judgment but also discredit you to some extent, regardless of the truths in your argument.

[OutlawzPrez]

You do realize in that video shes talking about people doing what your doing right? Good video, EVERYONE should watch it before signing this petition.

So does that mean your going to report me to the white house for speaking my views on healthcare? Well go ahead my friend. Here's another video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-bY92mcOdk&feature=player_embedded

Most likely the reason Obama wants to gather this gossip is to clear the air. The republicans love to throw out twisted truth and in many cases twisted truth that creates angry mobs. Remember Sarah Palin planting the seed that Obama was a terrorist which created death threats towards him? There was a guy yelling "kill him" at one of her rallies and "Obama bin laden" at one of McCains.. The same twisted truth is being used now to create these angry mobs like "Obama wants to give 12 million illegal aliens free health coverage and we are paying for it" or "Obama want's to take 50% of my check" (like OP made up).. None of which are true but very good statements to gain followers.

I was discusted by DNC video but not like you were, all's I saw was a bunch of mis-informed sheep / puppets created by lie's and mistruth by someone who wants their way by any means. I agree with the video that it needs to stop.

(and for the record if Obama wanted to bring back slavery I would be first in line protesting against him)

Angry mobs? The tax day tea party was a peaceful rally held in mostly every city all over the country on April 15th. Not a mob. It was americans standing up for what is right. You are twisting the truth again my friend.

Here is a prime example of the left wing media trying to twist the truth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6xWGvdRQ9Q

Glen Beck says it best in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbRr-wCH6Rc

Do you see an angry Mob?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNM_0vyug7s

I was using the 50% of my check as an example of how high it could be. And YES it is a fact! I did not make it up, Proven is trying to derail from the truth. A proposed surtax on the wealthy will actually hit hundreds of thousands of small business owners who are dealing with a recession. If it is enacted, America's top earners and job creators will carry a larger overall tax burden than France, Italy, Germany, Japan, etc, with a total average tax rate greater than 52%. Is that the right recipe for jobs and wage growth???


Wow, that sums up this thread and the arguments made by the people against this plan perfectly.

Its funny how he is "wrecking our country" yet when Bush was in office I didn't see any threads or negative posts being made about him from you. Sorry but Bush didn't really advance our country in any way possible, I might be so bold to say that he started the wrecking process.

So I guess everything that is wrong with the country is Bush's fault? lol. I'm sorry my friend I think you are experiencing "Bush Derangement Syndrome". May I elaborate? It is a condition in which a person feels and expresses a degree of antipathy toward former U.S. President George W. Bush that is grossly out of proportion to any remark, proposal, or action of the former President, or to any combination of such or to the sum of Mr. Bush's weaknesses as the leader of his country. Bush was a strong President. He did make mistakes though. He made decisions from his heart, not for political gains. There is something that I always said about obama & that is, "He inherited a bad economy & a great national defense.

[90blacktsiawd]

Personally im not for the health care plan. I'm not saying that it might not be a good thing but looking at the track record of the governments achievements of such kinds of programs it'll probably just be another good idea that they run into the ground.

On top of that, where the hell is all the money to do this going to come from? We're already in a bigger hole than we've ever been and they want to make it this much bigger? What kind of f*cktard decided that was a good idea :bigeek: ? You get your budget under control and get yourself back to level before you start taking on more debt. If people knew how to do that we wouldn't be in the crisis we're in with the economy.

I'm not sure what the right answer is to fix the health care issues in this country but i don't believe putting ourselves further into debt, by people who constantly prove they don't know how to run a business, in the shortest possible amount of time, is the proper solution.

[sisforsurfing]

So does that mean your going to report me to the white house for speaking my views on healthcare? Well go ahead my friend. Here's another video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-bY92mcOdk&feature=player_embedded



Did you read my post? No one is reporting anyone for speaking your views on healthcare. I guess people could report you if you were spreading misinformation based upon misconstrued facts, though, for the purpose of a proper response clarifying the situation.

And that video is pretty eye-opening for sure... in that it shows exactly what that whitehouse.gov blog post linked earlier (http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things/) is responding to. We can throw back and forth video clips from six years ago of Obama saying different things, like in that video where he says "if you like your plan and like your doctor, you won't have to do a thing... we're not gonna mess with it."
Politicians contradict themselves, it's the unfortunate truth, especially if you're quoting something from years ago.

Fact is -- most people won't read that bill. Everyone should, but they won't. And if everyone did, there would still be a huge divide as to what should happen, as evidenced here. My whole reason for even saying anything is that saying opinions and worst case scenarios as end-all truths is bad, especially when these heavily opinionated statements are all that most people will read. So if you give a worst case scenario to back up your opinion, others will give the opposite to support theirs, and then everyone but the most well-informed get confused.

[OutlawzPrez]

Personally im not for the health care plan. I'm not saying that it might not be a good thing but looking at the track record of the governments achievements of such kinds of programs it'll probably just be another good idea that they run into the ground.

On top of that, where the hell is all the money to do this going to come from? We're already in a bigger hole than we've ever been and they want to make it this much bigger? What kind of f*cktard decided that was a good idea :bigeek: ? You get your budget under control and get yourself back to level before you start taking on more debt. If people knew how to do that we wouldn't be in the crisis we're in with the economy.

I'm not sure what the right answer is to fix the health care issues in this country but i don't believe putting ourselves further into debt, by people who constantly prove they don't know how to run a business, in the shortest possible amount of time, is the proper solution.

I agree with you. You don't spend more money to get out of debt. you can polish a turd, but in the end its still a turd.

[90blacktsiawd]

A proposed surtax on the wealthy will actually hit hundreds of thousands of small business owners who are dealing with a recession.




This part i can back up. My family owns a small business. As it's an LLC the funds from the business accounts are attributed to the family assets which in turn put my parents into the wealthy class that they want to tax more. That isn't the way to stimulate small business to grow, hire, and spend money to help get our economy back on track.

[Proven]

Everyone is fed up. Coming from someone who negotiates serious contracts all the time, letting emotion seep into a debate, argument, or negotiation will not only cloud your own judgment but also discredit you to some extent, regardless of the truths in your argument.

Hopefully everyone reads this and understands why the 'angry mob's' the republicans created need to be stopped. Anger, screaming, twisted-truth, and arrogance is hard to sell, Hope, change, and being cool and calm wins every time for everyone (people respect you, and people listen to what you actually have to say).

[bastid]

Hopefully everyone reads this and understands why the 'angry mob's' the republicans created need to be stopped. Anger, screaming, twisted-truth, and arrogance is hard to sell, Hope, change, and being cool and calm wins every time for everyone (people respect you, and people listen to what you actually have to say).

I think there are a number of people who make outlandish comments based on half-truths or fear. Although, just as I said before, you can't lump everyone into a single group based on similar reaction. Not everyone is saying outlandish things. The DNC is trying to make you believe that if you oppose this bill in any way, shape, or form, you should be classified as some domestic terrorist. Absolutely unbelievable.

Two examples:

This "mobster" is a registered democrat - Questioned congress's haste in passing one of the largest bills in American history in 3-4 weeks when it took President Obama 6 months to pick a dog for his daughters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-RzbOMBmRM

In this one, a soldier makes a great point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y98HxYbsdBM

[OutlawzPrez]

I think there are a number of people who make outlandish comments based on half-truths or fear. Although, just as I said before, you can't lump everyone into a single group based on similar reaction. Not everyone is saying outlandish things. The DNC is trying to make you believe that if you oppose this bill in any way, shape, or form, you should be classified as some domestic terrorist. Absolutely unbelievable.

Two examples:

This "mobster" is a registered democrat - Questioned congress's haste in passing one of the largest bills in American history in 3-4 weeks when it took President Obama 6 months to pick a dog for his daughters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-RzbOMBmRM

In this one, a soldier makes a great point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y98HxYbsdBM

Well said.

[SuperCoyle]

I went to college with a girl from Italy and she told me the government run system in her country sucks.

[CleanNeon98]

All I can say to the millions who voted for Obama blindly is thank you :roll:

[Proven]

So does that mean your going to report me to the white house for speaking my views on healthcare? Well go ahead my friend.

I already reported you, agents should be at your house shortly with Obama laughing gas and brain wave altering machinery to get you to believe(Im kidding of course, i didnt report)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-bY92mcOdk&feature=player_embedded

Good video, What he is talking about is that the universal healthcare put in place will be much better so everyone will want it, and go to it. NOT everyone will be forced to take it. "health care companies will eventualy go out of business" yes, because their plans will suck compaired to Obama's.

Angry mobs? The tax day tea party was a peaceful rally held in mostly every city all over the country on April 15th. Not a mob. It was americans standing up for what is right. You are twisting the truth again my friend.

Yes, that was a peacefull rally you are correct. They should keep working in that direction. Hopefully their facts are correct though.

Here is a prime example of the left wing media trying to twist the truth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6xWGvdRQ

That was a video of an angry mob! thanks for posting it.. Guy with 2 year old in his arms screams "fuc*ing" and the lady called the reporter stupid because the that lady reads the internet, so she must know the truth.

Glen Beck says it best in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbRr-wCRc

FOX news blaming the media for twisted truth :rotfl: are you kidding me!!

Do you see an angry Mob?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNM_0vug7s

Some pretty music and you got yourself a peacefull video, I have no problem with the interviews in that video. But feel the people have been been mis-informed by twisted exagerated quotes.

I was using the 50% of my check as an example of how high it could be.

Ecactly, how high it "COULD" be, not what it deffinetely will be. The only truth in that is that you think it might happen. You took your opinions on what "could be" and fed it to the readers as truth..

And YES it is a fact!

No, its your opinion, not fact... big difference

I did not make it up,

You did, from your own opinion

Proven is trying to derail from the truth. A proposed surtax on the wealthy will actually hit hundreds of thousands of small business owners who are dealing with a recession. If it is enacted, America's top earners and job creators will carry a larger overall tax burden than France, Italy, Germany, Japan, etc, with a total average tax rate greater than 52%. Is that the right recipe for jobs and wage growth???


So I guess everything that is wrong with the country is Bush's fault? lol. I'm sorry my friend I think you are experiencing "Bush Derangement Syndrome". May I elaborate? It is a condition in which a person feels and expresses a degree of antipathy toward former U.S. President George W. Bush that is grossly out of proportion to any remark, proposal, or action of the former President, or to any combination of such or to the sum of Mr. Bush's weaknesses as the leader of his country. Bush was a strong President. He did make mistakes though. He made decisions from his heart, not for political gains. There is something that I always said about obama & that is, "He inherited a bad economy & a great national defense.


....................

[OutlawzPrez]

Hopefully everyone reads this and understands why the 'angry mob's' the republicans created need to be stopped. Anger, screaming, twisted-truth, and arrogance is hard to sell, Hope, change, and being cool and calm wins every time for everyone (people respect you, and people listen to what you actually have to say).

Looks like somebody has fallen victim to a campain won by slogans & probably watches too much cnn & not enough fox news.

Democrats want America to be great again right?

[cszakolczai]

Looks like somebody has fallen victim to a campain won by slogans & probably watches too much cnn & not enough fox news.
Democrats want America to be great again right?

HAHA sorry that made my laugh. You pretty much said, you watch to much of your one sided liberal television, you should watch more of my one sided conservative television.

[OutlawzPrez]

HAHA sorry that made my laugh. You pretty much said, you watch to much of your one sided liberal television, you should watch more of my one sided conservative television.

Huh? Cnn is more liberal & fox news is more conserative. What you talkin about? lol

I do watch both.

[SuperCoyle]

I personally believe both sides are controlled by lobbyists. When i first saw Obama I thought "Meet the new boss... same as the old boss..."

[OutlawzPrez]

....................

Proven is trying to derail from the truth once again when i already posted this twice. HERE I GO AGAIN... A proposed surtax on the wealthy will actually hit hundreds of thousands of small business owners who are dealing with a recession. If it is enacted, America's top earners and job creators will carry a larger overall tax burden than France, Italy, Germany, Japan, etc, with a total average tax rate greater than 52%. Is that the right recipe for jobs and wage growth???

[SuperCoyle]

Proven is trying to derail from the truth once again when i already posted this twice. HERE I GO AGAIN... A proposed surtax on the wealthy will actually hit hundreds of thousands of small business owners who are dealing with a recession. If it is enacted, America's top earners and job creators will carry a larger overall tax burden than France, Italy, Germany, Japan, etc, with a total average tax rate greater than 52%. Is that the right recipe for jobs and wage growth???

The top 0.1% will be fine its the rest of us that will lose.

[OutlawzPrez]

The top 0.1% will be fine its the rest of us that will lose.

I work for a private company & if this passes he will be hit with a big tax & that might mean layoffs & pay cuts or no raises.

[jspek]

how about a bill where people are fined $2500 for using **** grammar and atrocious spelling?

[SuperCoyle]

I said top .1% not 1% big difference, I sell Insurance ( all types including health ) . The main problem I have is the burden will be mostly on the upper middle class which is already hurting. Everyone that makes over 1 mil+ won't get affected because if you look at the figures they avoid taxes. A lot of people want this pushed through so they can finally stick it to everyone that pulls in large amounts of money each year but if that happens that would just move to a country that has lower taxes.

[Proven]

I
This "mobster" is a registered democrat - Questioned congress's haste in passing one of the largest bills in American history in 3-4 weeks when it took President Obama 6 months to pick a dog for his daughters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-RzbOMBmRM

You definitely seem like one of the more logical people on here, do you really think Obama sat around for 6 months trying to figure out what kind of dog to get his daughters? Or was it more that it took him 6 month to get his daughters a dog? That also has nothing to do with how serious he takes this bill. Yes, the bill was written up quickly but I doubt they thought everything up for it at the time of writing.

Also, the crowd in that video didnt take one second to hear the speakers side, they just shouted out things based on pre-opinion to what he was starting to say. Obviously the most compelling statement was about the daughters dogs, which above I pointed out really made no solid sense. That video was a classic example of people not wanting to hear both sides and just be hyped about their own opinions.

[bastid]

You definitely seem like one of the more logical people on here, do you really think Obama sat around for 6 months trying to figure out what kind of dog to get his daughters? Or was it more that it took him 6 month to get his daughters a dog? That also has nothing to do with how serious he takes this bill. Yes, the bill was written up quickly but I doubt they thought everything up for it at the time of writing.

Also, the crowd in that video didnt take one second to hear the speakers side, they just shouted out things based on pre-opinion to what he was starting to say. Obviously the most compelling statement was about the daughters dogs, which above I pointed out really made no solid sense. That video was a classic example of people not wanting to hear both sides and just be hyped about their own opinions.

I do not know about how much personal time Mr. Obama spent on what kind of puppy he was going to get. I do know it took 6 months for them to decide. I also know that he hasn't spent nearly enough time researching, understanding, let alone reading the 1,017 page healthcare bill that does little to correct the current problems facing national healthcare.

Regarding the crowd's, I agree that it's unfair to speak over someone. However, when someone gets all high and mighty and says things like "Let me tell you the facts" when they themselves are miserable ****ing liars, I will toggle on my "arrogant asshole" switch real quick to put them in their place.

[Proven]

I do not know about how much personal time Mr. Obama spent on what kind of puppy he was going to get. I do know it took 6 months for them to decide. I also know that he hasn't spent nearly enough time researching, understanding, let alone reading the 1,017 page healthcare bill that does little to correct the current problems facing national healthcare.

Regarding the crowd's, I agree that it's unfair to speak over someone. However, when someone gets all high and mighty and says things like "Let me tell you the facts" when they themselves are miserable ****ing liars, I will toggle on my "arrogant asshole" switch real quick to put them in their place.

Took him 6 months to get a dog for his kids, not 6 months to decide. Like you mentioned, you don't know how much time he put into choosing the dog, but yet you are running with the statement as if he couldn’t decide for 6months/ like he was baffled. That leads everyone to think that the dog for his kids is more important then the same healthcare his kids will be receiving. I seriously doubt that.

[bastid]

Took him 6 months to get a dog for his kids, not 6 months to decide. Like you mentioned, you don't know how much time he put into choosing the dog, but yet you are running with the statement as if he couldn’t decide for 6months/ like he was baffled. That leads everyone to think that the dog for his kids is more important then the same healthcare his kids will be receiving. I seriously doubt that.

Just drawing a silly analogy from a figurative perspective...

I think the bigger point is that there needs to be immediate legislation that mandates all members within the legislative branch to read every word in every bill rather than subdivide it and delegate the "reading and understanding" to their staff members. If we wanted their staff to interpret the bills and decide what is and is not important (or even worse, constitutional), we could have just as easily elected them and cut out the middleman.

The idea that our elected representatives themselves do not wholly understand what is and is not being passed is borderline "taxation without representation." These are serious issues that we are facing with even more serious consequences if we screw this up. "Fixing healthcare" would take months to hash out on the floor. The current healthcare infrastructure will simply not support what this bill is attempting to accomplish for reasons unaddressed in the bill.

Using scare tactics worked with the stimulus bill. We were "in a crisis" and "on the verge of total systemic meltdown" one day, then the President took a number of days to sign it after it passed the House and Senate. Shortly thereafter, everything was all rainbows and sunshine, all under the guise that they will help "save jobs," which in itself a complete and utter bull**** and unmeasurable figure.

With both healthcare and the economy, something needs to be done. Cutting through all of the bull**** being spewed by both sides, a half-assed effort will always yield half-assed results. We cannot afford a half-assed result which is what we're looking at as a best case scenario unless the bill gets some serious work.

[cszakolczai]

Took him 6 months to get a dog for his kids, not 6 months to decide. Like you mentioned, you don't know how much time he put into choosing the dog, but yet you are running with the statement as if he couldn’t decide for 6months/ like he was baffled. That leads everyone to think that the dog for his kids is more important then the same healthcare his kids will be receiving. I seriously doubt that.

I think that is one of the most valid points made here. We are talking about someone introducing a bill which will affect him once he leaves the presidency, and which will affect many people he knows. Its not like Bush's decision to enter Iraq, which would have no direct affect on him whatsoever.

[djb5118]

Without getting sucked into this whole argument, I will give another perspective...

I have a friend who lives in New Zealand. There is also government run health care present in that country. Her father has sleep apena. Due to his condition he needs to get into a sleep study to determine the impact it could have on him (side effects, including death). Although, due to his age he is of a lower priority status and thus has a much longer wait than some to get entry to a sleep study.


I have not decided on the issue personally, and honestly I am not adequately informed enough to make a full judgment, but I figured since I had that information that I would share it.


ADDED: I forgot to mention that she has said that she had little to no problem getting into health clinics for treatment (she is in her 20s)

[CleanNeon98]

I think that is one of the most valid points made here. We are talking about someone introducing a bill which will affect him once he leaves the presidency, and which will affect many people he knows. Its not like Bush's decision to enter Iraq, which would have no direct affect on him whatsoever.
Let's not forget important people with money can always overrun the system as they please. At the end of the day it's all about dollars and cents and the more you have, the higher in the line you'll be if it comes to recieving an organ transplant, etc.

[cszakolczai]

Let's not forget important people with money can always overrun the system as they please. At the end of the day it's all about dollars and cents and the more you have, the higher in the line you'll be if it comes to recieving an organ transplant, etc.

So our current system

[CleanNeon98]

So our current system
And the universal one in question will really not change a thing. Money will always be king.

[Proven]

I went to college with a girl from Italy and she told me the government run system in her country sucks.

I went to college with a girl from the USA and she said her current coverage sucked.

[Proven]

Without getting sucked into this whole argument, I will give another perspective...

I have a friend who lives in New Zealand. There is also government run health care present in that country. Her father has sleep apena. Due to his condition he needs to get into a sleep study to determine the impact it could have on him (side effects, including death). Although, due to his age he is of a lower priority status and thus has a much longer wait than some to get entry to a sleep study.


I have not decided on the issue personally, and honestly I am not adequately informed enough to make a full judgment, but I figured since I had that information that I would share it.


ADDED: I forgot to mention that she has said that she had little to no problem getting into health clinics for treatment (she is in her 20s)

Not directed at you, but for those that think other countries healthcare sucks don't move there. Obama's plan is specific for the US, he didn't call New Zealand or any other country and ask them to fax a copy of their bill.

[CleanNeon98]

I went to college with a girl from the USA and she said her current coverage sucked.
So dish out more cash for healthcare rather than fast food. Ever think that if price goes down quality goes down? With that logic in mind, what's going to happen if coverage now "sucks"? More money, more service, enough of this robin hood socialist **** that everyone should be equal. Want something work for it, don't wanna work for it then suffer and don't expect to be spoon fed, a lifestyle a lot of Americans are all too used to and fond of.

[sisforsurfing]

With both healthcare and the economy, something needs to be done. Cutting through all of the bull**** being spewed by both sides, a half-assed effort will always yield half-assed results. We cannot afford a half-assed result which is what we're looking at as a best case scenario unless the bill gets some serious work.

Well said.

So dish out more cash for healthcare rather than fast food. Ever think that if price goes down quality goes down? With that logic in mind, what's going to happen if coverage now "sucks"? More money, more service, enough of this robin hood socialist **** that everyone should be equal. Want something work for it, don't wanna work for it then suffer and don't expect to be spoon fed, a lifestyle a lot of Americans are all too used to and fond of.

Dude. What are you going on about? I was with you until the robin hood part, and then it just sounded like an old broken record.

[bastid]

... then the same healthcare his kids will be receiving...

Do you really believe this?

[cszakolczai]

So dish out more cash for healthcare rather than fast food. Ever think that if price goes down quality goes down? With that logic in mind, what's going to happen if coverage now "sucks"? More money, more service, enough of this robin hood socialist **** that everyone should be equal. Want something work for it, don't wanna work for it then suffer and don't expect to be spoon fed, a lifestyle a lot of Americans are all too used to and fond of.

Yeah, no, unfortunately Healthcare doesn't work like the rest of the economic cycle. When price goes up, demand does not go down. People do not stop getting sick when the price goes up. It works like the current gas situation in the United States. Price went up, and Demand went down a little bit, but people do not just stop driving. Even more so with healthcare, Price goes up, people do not stop getting cancer or having knee surgeries.

We also drop enough money into the current Healthcare system to make it work properly, yet it still does not.

[CleanNeon98]

Yeah, no, unfortunately Healthcare doesn't work like the rest of the economic cycle. When price goes up, demand does not go down. People do not stop getting sick when the price goes up. It works like the current gas situation in the United States. Price went up, and Demand went down a little bit, but people do not just stop driving. Even more so with healthcare, Price goes up, people do not stop getting cancer or having knee surgeries.

We also drop enough money into the current Healthcare system to make it work properly, yet it still does not.
So the solution is to force everyone to dump money into a new system?

[Renegade_]

So the solution is to force everyone to dump money into a new system?
Long term bro, long term. I could go on about how defaulting on the dollar and switching to the Amero while building a revised system with the previous dollar could be accomplished with the debt level being diminished significantly in the process, but that kind of talk seems crazy now because no one wants to believe it... I just don't know what to believe.

It would be gnarly as hell if the government built a system, racked up massive amounts of debt, defaulted on the debt, instated a new currency with a currency backing based on government securities and generalized assurance from the Fed, stating the dollar no longer was viable and rebuilt a debt-free system... They could just print crazy amounts of money for foreign debt and create artificial value on the currency, erasing past debt and raising the GDP of the US... oh snap. Keynesian at its furthest. This wasn't really done with the euro, but close to it; the false value of the euro took like a year plus to slide back to where it should have been in certain countries... I'm sure world economists have figured out how to sustain values of currency long enough to pay off debt...

Sorry, ramblings just kind of come every now and then.

Is universal health care an awesome idea? If it is applied perfectly, yes. Anything short of perfect starts adding negatives.

[cszakolczai]

So the solution is to force everyone to dump money into a new system?

Come on Alex think a little bit. How do you start some huge Universal program, recommend to everyone that its a really good idea and hope to god that they all bite? You have to push them a little bit. Granted as I've stated before I don't like the whole idea of how Obama is going about it, but he needs to be a little bit forceful here if he wants it done.

[OutlawzPrez]

I don't want the gov't taxing me for this. Healthy people who take care of themselves will have to pay for the burden of those who smoke, are obese, etc. So even If I decide to get my own healthcare they are still going to take money out of my paycheck for this universal healthcare. "Does that sound fair?"

Who knows, eventually I may get tired of paying for both & just settle for the lower quality coverage to save money since I'll be taxed anyway & get fined $2500 yearly if I don't have any. If the gov't only taxed people who enrolls in this program then I wouldn't oppose it as much. "Free" health care isn't really free since we must pay for it with taxes; expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc.

... Your opinions?

[Z31Fanatic]

Is universal health care an awesome idea? If it is applied perfectly, yes. Anything short of perfect starts adding negatives.
Why don't you ask the people of taxachussets? They have had universal health care since 2006 and it's pathetic and the state is struggling for money after only 3 years.

[CleanNeon98]

Come on Alex think a little bit. How do you start some huge Universal program, recommend to everyone that its a really good idea and hope to god that they all bite? You have to push them a little bit. Granted as I've stated before I don't like the whole idea of how Obama is going about it, but he needs to be a little bit forceful here if he wants it done.
And everyone will have to suffer. **** Obama.

[TrboChicsRock]

So dish out more cash for healthcare rather than fast food. Ever think that if price goes down quality goes down? With that logic in mind, what's going to happen if coverage now "sucks"? More money, more service, enough of this robin hood socialist **** that everyone should be equal. Want something work for it, don't wanna work for it then suffer and don't expect to be spoon fed, a lifestyle a lot of Americans are all too used to and fond of.

If you think that working hard is the sure-fire way of having great health insurance, then you don't get out much. There are plenty of people out there, including myself, who pay a lot for health insurance that won't cover even half of their medical bills. I'm currently sitting on $7k in bills that my insurance won't cover and I don't even have any serious medical problems. That doesn't even include the bill I currently have to pay for my premium that is due right now that I have a hard time paying since they have a hard time paying my current claims.

I work just as hard, if not harder than everyone on this forum. I work full time while taking 18 credits a semester and maintaining a 4.0 GPA all at the same time. So you're looking at 15 hour long days only to come home and do homework/study. So obviously, working hard does not equal good health insurance coverage. And as far as being healthy? Well, I'm far from being fat, I've never smoked or done a single drug in my entire life and I eat well and exercise. I don't think it gets much better than that.

There is a legitamite need to a better health insurance system and all everyone has done in here is complain. I don't see anyone coming up with any better ideas.

If the gov't only taxed people who enrolls in this program then I wouldn't oppose it as much.

You know, I don't use any of my local fire departments, maybe I should petition to have them stop using my tax dollars to pay firemen and provide them with equipment.

The biggest reason I've seen against this is that people don't want their tax dollars to go towards something they won't use. But I can guarantee that the amount of money that you guys pay in taxes cover nowhere near your percentage of the bills the goverment has to pay for things you use: road construction, education, fire departments, police departments, military, social security, medical research, the list goes on.

Trust me, there are A LOT of things that I don't agree with that our government does. This definitely isn't one of them.

[OutlawzPrez]

Why don't you ask the people of taxachussets? They have had universal health care since 2006 and it's pathetic and the state is struggling for money after only 3 years.

Much agreed.

[cszakolczai]

And everyone will have to suffer. **** Obama.

Alex, get out of this thread. You really have no idea what your talking about... go talk about Robin Hood with someone else.

[Z31Fanatic]

Here we go, your new fascist government are using union thugs to confront the pissed off people at a Tampa town hall meeting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kxaGfClPws

[cszakolczai]

I don't want the gov't taxing me for this. Healthy people who take care of themselves will have to pay for the burden of those who smoke, are obese, etc. So even If I decide to get my own healthcare they are still going to take money out of my paycheck for this universal healthcare. "Does that sound fair?"

Who knows, eventually I may get tired of paying for both & just settle for the lower quality coverage to save money since I'll be taxed anyway & get fined $2500 yearly if I don't have any. If the gov't only taxed people who enrolls in this program then I wouldn't oppose it as much. "Free" health care isn't really free since we must pay for it with taxes; expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc.

... Your opinions?

Where do you get that people who smoke will be treated and people who are obese? Sorry but wasn't your statement before about the government choosing who they want to treat and who they think is a better candidate? If so, I doubt they'll treat bob's emphysema who's been smoking for 25 years. So make up your mind, is the government going to or are they not going to treat these people.

If you want my opinion... people who have illnesses like this will not be treated as much, and the actual sick people will be. So this will actually work out in theory due to the fact the money saved from Bob will go to someone else who didn't bring this upon themself.

[cszakolczai]

If you think that working hard is the sure-fire way of having great health insurance, then you don't get out much. There are plenty of people out there, including myself, who pay a lot for health insurance that won't cover even half of their medical bills. I'm currently sitting on $7k in bills that my insurance won't cover and I don't even have any serious medical problems. That doesn't even include the bill I currently have to pay for my premium that is due right now that I have a hard time paying since they have a hard time paying my current claims.

I work just as hard, if not harder than everyone on this forum. I work full time while taking 18 credits a semester and maintaining a 4.0 GPA all at the same time. So you're looking at 15 hour long days only to come home and do homework/study. So obviously, working hard does not equal good health insurance coverage. And as far as being healthy? Well, I'm far from being fat, I've never smoked or done a single drug in my entire life and I eat well and exercise. I don't think it gets much better than that.

There is a legitamite need to a better health insurance system and all everyone has done in here is complain. I don't see anyone coming up with any better ideas.



You know, I don't use any of my local fire departments, maybe I should petition to have them stop using my tax dollars to pay firemen and provide them with equipment.

The biggest reason I've seen against this is that people don't want their tax dollars to go towards something they won't use. But I can guarantee that the amount of money that you guys pay in taxes cover nowhere near your percentage of the bills the goverment has to pay for things you use: road construction, education, fire departments, police departments, military, social security, medical research, the list goes on.

Trust me, there are A LOT of things that I don't agree with that our government does. This definitely isn't one of them.


Very good point being made.

[OutlawzPrez]

If you think that working hard is the sure-fire way of having great health insurance, then you don't get out much. There are plenty of people out there, including myself, who pay a lot for health insurance that won't cover even half of their medical bills. I'm currently sitting on $7k in bills that my insurance won't cover and I don't even have any serious medical problems. That doesn't even include the bill I currently have to pay for my premium that is due right now that I have a hard time paying since they have a hard time paying my current claims.

I work just as hard, if not harder than everyone on this forum. I work full time while taking 18 credits a semester and maintaining a 4.0 GPA all at the same time. So you're looking at 15 hour long days only to come home and do homework/study. So obviously, working hard does not equal good health insurance coverage. And as far as being healthy? Well, I'm far from being fat, I've never smoked or done a single drug in my entire life and I eat well and exercise. I don't think it gets much better than that.

There is a legitamite need to a better health insurance system and all everyone has done in here is complain. I don't see anyone coming up with any better ideas.



You know, I don't use any of my local fire departments, maybe I should petition to have them stop using my tax dollars to pay firemen and provide them with equipment.

The biggest reason I've seen against this is that people don't want their tax dollars to go towards something they won't use. But I can guarantee that the amount of money that you guys pay in taxes cover nowhere near your percentage of the bills the goverment has to pay for things you use: road construction, education, fire departments, police departments, military, social security, medical research, the list goes on.

Trust me, there are A LOT of things that I don't agree with that our government does. This definitely isn't one of them.

That is not a legitimate defense. These two are completely different. Like social security, any government benefit eventually is taken as a "right" by the public, meaning that it's politically near impossible to remove or curtail it later on when costs get out of control.

Do you really want the gov't being in control of your health? And YES I do agree that we need to better our healhcare system, NOT CREAT A NEW SYSTEM IN A QUICK BANG. But I disagree with the Obama administration on this one. So ask yourself what good would it do to wipe out a few hundred dollars of monthly health insurance premiums if our taxes go up by that much or more? for example If we have to cut AIDS research or education spending, is it worth it?

[OutlawzPrez]

Here we go, your new fascist government are using union thugs to confront the pissed off people at a Tampa town hall meeting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kxaGfClPws

We are the silent majority no more. Ordinary people standing up for what is right! People are getting fed up with all this nonsense & wrekless spending. Our founding fathers had principles for small gov't NOT big gov't.

[OutlawzPrez]

THIS JUST IN...

Obama's personal physician for 20 years is against his health care plan.

Watch Huckabee tonight on Fox News.

[Z31Fanatic]

Lol, His doctor said that since they first introduced the plan but you never heard it on the news.

Also, a lot of people bitched about Bush's spending and now the dems do the same thing.

550 million $ for new planes for the congress http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124960404730212955.html

[Z31Fanatic]

Here an update on the great universal healthcare that France uses

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124958049241511735.html

Also, the western europe is shifting to the right. The conservatives won the european elections which were held 2 months ago.
People are tired of paying huge taxes and the high unemployement and all the benefits that the lazy bums and immigrants get from the government.

[bastid]

If you think that working hard is the sure-fire way of having great health insurance, then you don't get out much. There are plenty of people out there, including myself, who pay a lot for health insurance that won't cover even half of their medical bills. I'm currently sitting on $7k in bills that my insurance won't cover and I don't even have any serious medical problems. That doesn't even include the bill I currently have to pay for my premium that is due right now that I have a hard time paying since they have a hard time paying my current claims.

I think the issue you are getting at is health insurance coverage reform. I agree with the notion that insurance companies should be very clear about what is and is not covered based on the premiums that you pay.

I can go to Independence Blue Cross and see exactly what coverage I have and how much I'm expected to pay. If I don't like it, I can up my coverage just like I can up my coverage on my car insurance. I believe I'm paying just shy of $150/mo for medical, non-cosmetic dental, and optical. I get routine packets of information regarding coverage changes. It's pretty transparent. If I ever feel like there's something wrong with my plan, I can opt out and look elsewhere for insurance. My employer offers a few different plans. I go for routine physicals and occasionally to a specialist if need be (fractured my thumb 2 winters ago while snowboarding). I've paid approximately $28 out of pocket in 5 years on top of my premiums, and I'm very happy with my insurance (as is everyone else who I work with and know).

I work just as hard, if not harder than everyone on this forum. I work full time while taking 18 credits a semester and maintaining a 4.0 GPA all at the same time. So you're looking at 15 hour long days only to come home and do homework/study.

Nice work. I was in the same boat when I was in school (plus summer classes to boot!). Hopefully it'll provide you a nice leg up once it's all said and done :D

There is a legitamite need to a better health insurance system and all everyone has done in here is complain. I don't see anyone coming up with any better ideas.

1. Tort reform. This is an absolute MUST so physicians don't have to play the "cover your ass" game and over-treat out of fear. This reduces costs of insurance companies that can be used to offer a wider spectrum of care to those who need it and more affordable plans to those who don't have one.

2. More patient responsibility. Increase deductibles so that "frequent flier" hypochondriac patients do not abuse the system because they have a $10 copay and can see as many doctors as they please. You increase the deductibles as you cheapen the health-plans to even $100-250, and you will find that the throughput of patients will primarily be the sick and not the abusers.

3. Crack down hard on Medicare/Medicaid Fraud. It's costing our country $35 BILLION annually.

4. Provide interest free student loans to those wishing to pursue medicine. Incentivize people to want to become physicians again so that we don't reach a shortage of 100,000+ primary care physicians by 2020 as predicted. You can't add 40 million people to an already overworked system. It's like trying to shoot more water through the same diameter hose. There's only so much you can do in a limited amount of time without sacrificing quality of care.

There's a start...

You know, I don't use any of my local fire departments, maybe I should petition to have them stop using my tax dollars to pay firemen and provide them with equipment.

I see your point here, however I believe it's somewhat apples to oranges. In my opinion, a more similar analogy is that I would be unwilling to pay for fire services to put out fires in households who did not pay for the service where the tenants were leaving lit cigarettes around the house with the gas turned on high. Patients in this country are just as negligent in the increasing costs of healthcare as insurers. I will NOT pay for someone else's laziness or unwillingness to take care of themselves.

The biggest reason I've seen against this is that people don't want their tax dollars to go towards something they won't use.

If I got something out of the government plan and was actually enrolled, I don't think I would mind paying for it. I do mind paying for a plan that I never have any intention of enrolling in, and therefore never see any benefit from it.

But I can guarantee that the amount of money that you guys pay in taxes cover nowhere near your percentage of the bills the goverment has to pay for things you use: road construction, education, fire departments, police departments, military, social security, medical research, the list goes on.

Many of your examples are largely budgeted and funded on the state state and local level, of which are generally taxed on a flat rate (which I agree with). A very small percent of federal tax dollars are allocated for transportation, law enforcement, etc.

http://centeronbudget.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1258
http://www.fcnl.org/pdfs/taxDay08.pdf

[Proven]

If you think that working hard is the sure-fire way of having great health insurance, then you don't get out much. There are plenty of people out there, including myself, who pay a lot for health insurance that won't cover even half of their medical bills. I'm currently sitting on $7k in bills that my insurance won't cover and I don't even have any serious medical problems. That doesn't even include the bill I currently have to pay for my premium that is due right now that I have a hard time paying since they have a hard time paying my current claims.

I work just as hard, if not harder than everyone on this forum. I work full time while taking 18 credits a semester and maintaining a 4.0 GPA all at the same time. So you're looking at 15 hour long days only to come home and do homework/study. So obviously, working hard does not equal good health insurance coverage. And as far as being healthy? Well, I'm far from being fat, I've never smoked or done a single drug in my entire life and I eat well and exercise. I don't think it gets much better than that.

There is a legitamite need to a better health insurance system and all everyone has done in here is complain. I don't see anyone coming up with any better ideas.



You know, I don't use any of my local fire departments, maybe I should petition to have them stop using my tax dollars to pay firemen and provide them with equipment.

The biggest reason I've seen against this is that people don't want their tax dollars to go towards something they won't use. But I can guarantee that the amount of money that you guys pay in taxes cover nowhere near your percentage of the bills the goverment has to pay for things you use: road construction, education, fire departments, police departments, military, social security, medical research, the list goes on.

Trust me, there are A LOT of things that I don't agree with that our government does. This definitely isn't one of them.

Awesome read, and people like you are exactly why Obama wants to do this. Unfortunately the guy who does drugs, doesn’t pay child support, does nothing but cause trouble will also benefit BUT the good it will do out weights the negative.

[bastid]

...the good it will do out weights the negative.

Source please. Hard numbers, preferably. :wink:

[Proven]

I don't want the gov't taxing me for this. Healthy people who take care of themselves will have to pay for the burden of those who smoke, are obese, etc. So even If I decide to get my own healthcare they are still going to take money out of my paycheck for this universal healthcare. "Does that sound fair?"

Who knows, eventually I may get tired of paying for both & just settle for the lower quality coverage to save money since I'll be taxed anyway & get fined $2500 yearly if I don't have any. If the gov't only taxed people who enrolls in this program then I wouldn't oppose it as much. "Free" health care isn't really free since we must pay for it with taxes; expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc.

... Your opinions?

If you have a current health insurance plan your already paying extra for people who smoke or are obese.

I do think you'll end up switching, and you wont be disappointed.. If you are, then start a petition to stop it. If everything goes to hell because of this bill like you think I'll be backing you myself. Till then let change happen.

[Proven]

Source please. Hard numbers, preferably. :wink:

Haha easy now.. The only source I have is that I feel there are more good people in this world then bad.

[bastid]

Haha easy now.. The only source I have is that I feel there are more good people in this world then bad.

Well then. We are doomed :mrgreen: