Sign this petition keeping Government control OUT of healthcare

[4DR_DB7]

This thread is hopeless.... seriously guys, I tried, but can't submit myself to this ignorance anymore. Have fun propagating the Right-Wing Fear Mongering Tactics. I hope you all get cancer (and spend every last dollar of your life-savings on treatment and care). :) Best of luck!

[GHost240SX]

So, you are totally ok with someone breaking in to your car, stealing it, destroying it? You wouldn't feel violated in any way? Why not just give it to me? I don't have a car like yours and I've always wanted to know what it drives like, but I just can't afford one. I'll call Obama and tell him. He will gladly take what is yours and give it to me....without all of that silly gun stuff. Thanks.


Back to healthcare. Since people who can't afford health insurance want to dip into my pocket, shouldn't I or Barack be able to decide what they do with their life? Should these people be able to reproduce, increasing my tax burden? Shouldn't I be the one to decide what they eat? how they act? who they f$%k? what they drive if I allow them to have a car? I need to protect my 'investment' and make sure it doesn't cost me more for no good reason, right?

Actually there would be stipulations on what you can and can't do. These would all be within reason but there would be stipulations nonetheless. In canada if you ride with out a helmet on a motorcycle you can be denied coverage.

[3rdGenMr2Girl]

This thread is hopeless.... seriously guys, I tried, but can't submit myself to this ignorance anymore. Have fun propagating the Right-Wing Fear Mongering Tactics. I hope you all get cancer (and spend every last dollar of your life-savings on treatment and care). :) Best of luck!

wow. and you called ME ignorant? that's an awesome thing to say, especially to someone who recently had surgery to remove an area with cancerous cells. f**k you.

[DiabloMR2]

and i bet you have healthcare. Imagine if you didnt, where would you have been then?

[3rdGenMr2Girl]

i pay for my f**king healthcare.

[DiabloMR2]

first of all, no need to curse at me lil lady.

and you job pays for most of your healthcare, correct?

what about those that are self employed but cant afford it. or the people out of work? so they just die from cancer?

[3rdGenMr2Girl]

i'm a server at a restaurant and i can afford it. come on now. like i make 100k a year.

[DiabloMR2]

i didnt say that you cant afford it. but what about the hard working americans that cant? or those out of work? they deserve to die from cancer cuz they cant afford heathcare. what if you had been laid off when companies just started dropping people left and right. you have no job and no healthcare. but uh-oh all of a sudden theres a lump on your boob. what you gonna do?

[3rdGenMr2Girl]

absolutely not. but it's not fair to anyone. i don't think it's right for the people who paid for their healthcare all along to suddenly have to wait to have procedures done or to see a doctor. and let's face it, the government will now be deciding if and when you can have a surgery since they're the one paying for it. i got my surgery done within two weeks. what if i were to have to have waited for months?

[bastid]

I hope you all get cancer (and spend every last dollar of your life-savings on treatment and care).

Toward that end, if I ever see you or a loved one of yours getting beaten, raped, and/or murdered, I won't bother presenting my firearm and wasting any ammunition.

Good day, sir!

[DiabloMR2]

is that a fact? I'll have to wait longer for treatment now? seems like speculaution to me. so instead of my heathcare provider (who is in the business to turn a profit), my govt ( who prolly wants to keep me alive to continue paying taxes. haha) will decide. im ok with that since i just went though all the BS to try and get my ins co to pay for my meds that i need to live.

all im saying is what we have now doesnt work. and how is that the great U.S. of A's healthcare is ranked 37th?? above..... Slovenia??? really?

36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia

[3rdGenMr2Girl]

who the f**k even says something like that?

[DiabloMR2]

:confused: huh?

[3rdGenMr2Girl]

not you, that dbag who said he hopes we get cancer.

[Elliott18t]

wow wtf. I agree, who says that?

[4DR_DB7]

My Parting Gift, aka. what I've been trying to explain to those under-informed people out there:

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20090820_Report__Health_insurance_costs_up_95___in come_up_17_5_.html


Report: Health insurance costs up 95%; income up 17.5%

A report released today crunches some numbers to confirm what most of us already probably knew: The cost of our health insurance is going up much faster than our pay.

According to Families USA, a Washington-based nonprofit that advocates for affordable health care, between 2000 and 2009 the cost of a family premium provided by an employer rose by 95.2 percent while median income went up by just 17.5 percent. To make matters more galling, workers are getting fewer benefits plus higher deductibles and co-pays for the extra money.

The organization blamed the higher prices on the rising cost and increased use of medical treatments, inadequate oversight of insurance companies, lack of competition among insurers in many markets, and cost shifting from the growing numbers of uninsured to the insured.

The higher prices have also made it more difficult for people to get insurance through their jobs. Nationally, the percentage of U.S. companies that offer health insurance to employees dropped from 69 to 63 from 2000 to 2008.

Ron Pollack, executive director of Families USA, said his group is generally "supportive of what the White House is trying to do" and of Democratic plans to reform health care.

In Pennsylvania, Families USA found:

From 2000 to 2009, the average price of a family health insurance premium purchased by an employer rose from $6,721 to $13,116.

The employer share of that premium grew by $4,531 to $9,955, or 83.5 percent.

The average worker's share rose by 143.7 percent, from $1,297 to $3,161.

The price of a premium for an individual climbed by 93.9 percent, from $2,467 in 2000 to $4,782 in 2009.

The employer share of an individual premium went up to $3,879 from $2,094, an 85.2 percent increase.

The employee's share grew by 142 percent, from $373 to $904.

Median earnings for Pennsylvania rose from $24,834 to $29,188 from 2000 to 2009

[OutlawzPrez]

SO WHAT?????????? you want a cookie?

GET OVER YOURSELVES! ITS NOT JUST ABOUT YOU. Despite what your parents may have raised you to believe....

Are you really that naive, that you would rather keep paying more money than you have to pay than have reform??? ROFL... good for you, you're very smart. You pay ridiculously over-inflated rates. Like, OMG, seriously, I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of ignorant hicks sometimes. This reform will provide competition to the insurance companies. Competition in business brings prices DOWN and improves the quality of the service.


Wow buddy you need to chill out & show some respect. Don't be mad just cause this bill isn't going to pass. And stop spreading your BS by putting words into peoples mouths. Because most of the country wants a healthcare reform, just NOT whats written on this bill. We need to fix the current system, not create a gov't run "big bang" system. Use some common sense. And just like I said before if you don't have any intelligent information to provide us on why you want this bill to pass, then don't bother posting or just move to Canada. I bet you'll love the long waits to see a doctor. Unless you want to stay in the US & get fined for not having health insurance.

[OutlawzPrez]

This thread is hopeless.... seriously guys, I tried, but can't submit myself to this ignorance anymore. Have fun propagating the Right-Wing Fear Mongering Tactics. I hope you all get cancer (and spend every last dollar of your life-savings on treatment and care). :) Best of luck!

THANK YOU GOD! HE IS GONE! LOL

Here's a fact buddy. "Something which i know is very hard for you to understand so I'm gonna try to make it simple with lots of big letters...

Fact No. 1: Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers.[1] Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the United States, and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the U.K. and 457 percent higher in Norway. The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher.

Fact No. 2: Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians.[2] Breast cancer mortality is 9 percent higher, prostate cancer is 184 percent higher and colon cancer mortality among men is about 10 percent higher than in the United States.

Fact No. 3: Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries.[3] Some 56 percent of Americans who could benefit are taking statins, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease. By comparison, of those patients who could benefit from these drugs, only 36 percent of the Dutch, 29 percent of the Swiss, 26 percent of Germans, 23 percent of Britons and 17 percent of Italians receive them.

Fact No. 4: Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians.[4] Take the proportion of the appropriate-age population groups who have received recommended tests for breast, cervical, prostate and colon cancer:

Nine of 10 middle-aged American women (89 percent) have had a mammogram, compared to less than three-fourths of Canadians (72 percent).
Nearly all American women (96 percent) have had a pap smear, compared to less than 90 percent of Canadians.
More than half of American men (54 percent) have had a PSA test, compared to less than 1 in 6 Canadians (16 percent).
Nearly one-third of Americans (30 percent) have had a colonoscopy, compared with less than 1 in 20 Canadians (5 percent).
Fact No. 5: Lower income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report "excellent" health compared to Canadian seniors (11.7 percent versus 5.8 percent). Conversely, white Canadian young adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower income Americans to describe their health as "fair or poor."[5]

Fact No. 6: Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the U.K. Canadian and British patients wait about twice as long - sometimes more than a year - to see a specialist, to have elective surgery like hip replacements or to get radiation treatment for cancer.[6] All told, 827,429 people are waiting for some type of procedure in Canada.[7] In England, nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment.[8]

Fact No. 7: People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. More than 70 percent of German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand and British adults say their health system needs either "fundamental change" or "complete rebuilding."[9]

Fact No. 8: Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians. When asked about their own health care instead of the "health care system," more than half of Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared to only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).[10]

Fact No. 9: Americans have much better access to important new technologies like medical imaging than patients in Canada or the U.K. Maligned as a waste by economists and policymakers naïve to actual medical practice, an overwhelming majority of leading American physicians identified computerized tomography (CT) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) as the most important medical innovations for improving patient care during the previous decade.[11] [See the table.] The United States has 34 CT scanners per million Americans, compared to 12 in Canada and eight in Britain. The United States has nearly 27 MRI machines per million compared to about 6 per million in Canada and Britain.[12]

Fact No. 10: Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations.[13] The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other single developed country.[14] Since the mid-1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to American residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined.[15] In only five of the past 34 years did a scientist living in America not win or share in the prize. Most important recent medical innovations were developed in the United States.[16] [See the table.]

Conclusion. Despite serious challenges, such as escalating costs and the uninsured, the U.S. health care system compares favorably to those in other developed countries.

[Suckface]

done!

[CleanNeon98]

Yup. Your assumption is exactly correct man. I'm an evil person.....

Seriously though, I would strongly suggest you seek counseling. You can't shoot someone for breaking into your car. This is America bro, not Iraq.
I'm sorry but in turn of recent events I think I have a say here. My car was broken into, my camera gear stolen. It was a couple of 14-16 year olds as my mom described from when she saw them laugh at her when she told them she was calling the police. What would happen if I was home, came out, and beat the living **** out of both of the kids for breaking into my car, and my moms, and our neighbors? I'd be in jail for assaulting a minor, or if they were of age I'd probbably still be in jail for assault. By the book I'm supposed to do nothing until police arrive or until a threat is posed towards me, a knife, a gun, whatever. If they just get into my car, take my ****, and walk away, there's nothing I can do and they can get off with it.

Thanks government for taking another step into my life and telling me that I can't protect myself and my family against criminals. Where I come from, I could beat them, shoot them, whatever, and it would be looked at as justice, here it's looked at as a crime because I am defending myself, my family, and our property. **** that.

[3rdGenMr2Girl]

yeah, thank god he is gone. he's a waste of life. and cleanneon, i agree. if someone enters your house, you should have every right to protect your belongings. i'm not saying going on a shooting rampage, but you should definitely be able to atleast get physical enough to get your stuff back.

[CleanNeon98]

yeah, thank god he is gone. he's a waste of life. and cleanneon, i agree. if someone enters your house, you should have every right to protect your belongings. i'm not saying going on a shooting rampage, but you should definitely be able to atleast get physical enough to get your stuff back.
It wasn't my house, it was our cars, and I wasn't home to do anything about the situation. If it had been my house quite simply I would have locked the doors, called the police, and held them down in the corner if my house with my Gamo P23, it may only be a Co2 gun but it shoots hard enough to disable anyone at a reasonable distance (though I'd probbably go to jail for actually firing it).

[4DR_DB7]

My Parting Gift, aka. what I've been trying to explain to those under-informed people out there:

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20090820_Report__Health_insurance_costs_up_95___in come_up_17_5_.html


Report: Health insurance costs up 95%; income up 17.5%

A report released today crunches some numbers to confirm what most of us already probably knew: The cost of our health insurance is going up much faster than our pay.

According to Families USA, a Washington-based nonprofit that advocates for affordable health care, between 2000 and 2009 the cost of a family premium provided by an employer rose by 95.2 percent while median income went up by just 17.5 percent. To make matters more galling, workers are getting fewer benefits plus higher deductibles and co-pays for the extra money.

The organization blamed the higher prices on the rising cost and increased use of medical treatments, inadequate oversight of insurance companies, lack of competition among insurers in many markets, and cost shifting from the growing numbers of uninsured to the insured.

The higher prices have also made it more difficult for people to get insurance through their jobs. Nationally, the percentage of U.S. companies that offer health insurance to employees dropped from 69 to 63 from 2000 to 2008.

Ron Pollack, executive director of Families USA, said his group is generally "supportive of what the White House is trying to do" and of Democratic plans to reform health care.

In Pennsylvania, Families USA found:

From 2000 to 2009, the average price of a family health insurance premium purchased by an employer rose from $6,721 to $13,116.

The employer share of that premium grew by $4,531 to $9,955, or 83.5 percent.

The average worker's share rose by 143.7 percent, from $1,297 to $3,161.

The price of a premium for an individual climbed by 93.9 percent, from $2,467 in 2000 to $4,782 in 2009.

The employer share of an individual premium went up to $3,879 from $2,094, an 85.2 percent increase.

The employee's share grew by 142 percent, from $373 to $904.

Median earnings for Pennsylvania rose from $24,834 to $29,188 from 2000 to 2009


this guy knows what he's talking about! :mrgreen:

[Elliott18t]

I'm sorry but in turn of recent events I think I have a say here. My car was broken into, my camera gear stolen. It was a couple of 14-16 year olds as my mom described from when she saw them laugh at her when she told them she was calling the police. What would happen if I was home, came out, and beat the living **** out of both of the kids for breaking into my car, and my moms, and our neighbors? I'd be in jail for assaulting a minor, or if they were of age I'd probbably still be in jail for assault. By the book I'm supposed to do nothing until police arrive or until a threat is posed towards me, a knife, a gun, whatever. If they just get into my car, take my ****, and walk away, there's nothing I can do and they can get off with it.

Thanks government for taking another step into my life and telling me that I can't protect myself and my family against criminals. Where I come from, I could beat them, shoot them, whatever, and it would be looked at as justice, here it's looked at as a crime because I am defending myself, my family, and our property. **** that.


seriously, If i ever caught the people who touched my car and nearly totalled it (came out to 12k in damage...) i would've gone on a rampage. NO ONE should've touched my ****, and i feel the cops didnt do **** about it. they took it in for evidence but just told me my car was a clean one... wtf. IF i was home i wouldve beaten the **** out of the people. not to death but enough to scare them.

[3rdGenMr2Girl]

this guy knows what he's talking about! :mrgreen:

did you really just compliment yourself? ugh, you're one of those people i'd love to punch in the face.

[Proven]

absolutely not. but it's not fair to anyone. i don't think it's right for the people who paid for their healthcare all along to suddenly have to wait to have procedures done or to see a doctor. and let's face it, the government will now be deciding if and when you can have a surgery since they're the one paying for it. i got my surgery done within two weeks. what if i were to have to have waited for months?

The government WILL NOT be deciding whether or not you can have surgery unless your trying to get a nose job or breast implants covered. People paying for coverage wait for procedures to get done already (you might not of, but its not just about you remember), there’s nothing but guesses that say it will take longer under this plan..

PLEASE STOP MAKING GUESSES AND USING TWISTED TRUTH AS YOUR BASIS FOR BEING AGAINTS THIS PLAN.

[Proven]

THANK YOU GOD! HE IS GONE! LOL

Here's a fact buddy. "Something which i know is very hard for you to understand so I'm gonna try to make it simple with lots of big letters...

Fact No. 1: Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers.[1] Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the United States, and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the U.K. and 457 percent higher in Norway. The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher.

Fact No. 2: Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians.[2] Breast cancer mortality is 9 percent higher, prostate cancer is 184 percent higher and colon cancer mortality among men is about 10 percent higher than in the United States.

Fact No. 3: Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries.[3] Some 56 percent of Americans who could benefit are taking statins, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease. By comparison, of those patients who could benefit from these drugs, only 36 percent of the Dutch, 29 percent of the Swiss, 26 percent of Germans, 23 percent of Britons and 17 percent of Italians receive them.

Fact No. 4: Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians.[4] Take the proportion of the appropriate-age population groups who have received recommended tests for breast, cervical, prostate and colon cancer:

Nine of 10 middle-aged American women (89 percent) have had a mammogram, compared to less than three-fourths of Canadians (72 percent).
Nearly all American women (96 percent) have had a pap smear, compared to less than 90 percent of Canadians.
More than half of American men (54 percent) have had a PSA test, compared to less than 1 in 6 Canadians (16 percent).
Nearly one-third of Americans (30 percent) have had a colonoscopy, compared with less than 1 in 20 Canadians (5 percent).
Fact No. 5: Lower income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report "excellent" health compared to Canadian seniors (11.7 percent versus 5.8 percent). Conversely, white Canadian young adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower income Americans to describe their health as "fair or poor."[5]

Fact No. 6: Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the U.K. Canadian and British patients wait about twice as long - sometimes more than a year - to see a specialist, to have elective surgery like hip replacements or to get radiation treatment for cancer.[6] All told, 827,429 people are waiting for some type of procedure in Canada.[7] In England, nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment.[8]

Fact No. 7: People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. More than 70 percent of German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand and British adults say their health system needs either "fundamental change" or "complete rebuilding."[9]

Fact No. 8: Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians. When asked about their own health care instead of the "health care system," more than half of Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared to only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).[10]

Fact No. 9: Americans have much better access to important new technologies like medical imaging than patients in Canada or the U.K. Maligned as a waste by economists and policymakers naïve to actual medical practice, an overwhelming majority of leading American physicians identified computerized tomography (CT) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) as the most important medical innovations for improving patient care during the previous decade.[11] [See the table.] The United States has 34 CT scanners per million Americans, compared to 12 in Canada and eight in Britain. The United States has nearly 27 MRI machines per million compared to about 6 per million in Canada and Britain.[12]

Fact No. 10: Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations.[13] The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other single developed country.[14] Since the mid-1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to American residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined.[15] In only five of the past 34 years did a scientist living in America not win or share in the prize. Most important recent medical innovations were developed in the United States.[16] [See the table.]

Conclusion. Despite serious challenges, such as escalating costs and the uninsured, the U.S. health care system compares favorably to those in other developed countries.

1. Fact, and it will all get better under this plan.

2. Fact - fact #9, 4 and 3 are the reasons why we have better survival rates. NOT because our healthcare system is the 36th best in the world.

Once again twisted truth. We have better survival rates because of our doctors and technology. NOT because our current systems is run so perfectly. :bigeek: Our Doctors and tech. will stay the same under this plan and grow. The amount of money used to get the same survival rates will be lessoned. MORE people will actually survive under this plan because more people will be able to get the treatment they need.

If your all for the fact that our country has a higher survival rate then vote FOR this bill to make it even higher.

[bastid]

1. Fact, and it will all get better under this plan.


Hey Proven... can you do me a favor?

Can you please elaborate for me (as specifically as possible) how you believe this plan will reduce healthcare costs? Feel free to use exact figures on cost reduction, but provide sources.

[4DR_DB7]

Proven - don't waste your time on these guys. They are closed-minded radical right wingers, like Rush Limbaugh. You know there is no reasoning with them. They don't even know why they hold the beliefs that they do... so how could you possibly convince them otherwise. Its not like they see things objectively so that you could actually influence their opinions with logic. :D

This thread is just an outlet for all the whiny cry-babies who are still butt-sore about losing the election. Period. The end.

[bastid]

Proven - don't waste your time on these guys. They are closed-minded radical right wingers, like Rush Limbaugh. You know there is no reasoning with them. They don't even know why they hold the beliefs that they do... so how could you possibly convince them otherwise. Its not like they see things objectively so that you could actually influence their opinions with logic. :D

This thread is just an outlet for all the whiny cry-babies who are still butt-sore about losing the election. Period. The end.

I asked a fair question. The replies in this thread have been more what people will believe will happen vs. how they believe it will happen.

PS - I thought you left?

[OutlawzPrez]

1. Fact, and it will all get better under this plan.

2. Fact - fact #9, 4 and 3 are the reasons why we have better survival rates. NOT because our healthcare system is the 36th best in the world.

Once again twisted truth. We have better survival rates because of our doctors and technology. NOT because our current systems is run so perfectly. :bigeek: Our Doctors and tech. will stay the same under this plan and grow. The amount of money used to get the same survival rates will be lessoned. MORE people will actually survive under this plan because more people will be able to get the treatment they need.

If your all for the fact that our country has a higher survival rate then vote FOR this bill to make it even higher.

PROVE IT!

Hey Proven... can you do me a favor?

Can you please elaborate for me (as specifically as possible) how you believe this plan will reduce healthcare costs? Feel free to use exact figures on cost reduction, but provide sources.

Right on man.

Proven - don't waste your time on these guys. They are closed-minded radical right wingers, like Rush Limbaugh. You know there is no reasoning with them. They don't even know why they hold the beliefs that they do... so how could you possibly convince them otherwise. Its not like they see things objectively so that you could actually influence their opinions with logic. :D

This thread is just an outlet for all the whiny cry-babies who are still butt-sore about losing the election. Period. The end.

Look who's whining ^^^^^ & always blaming someone else for their problems. You my friend are closed minded. You don't have much if not any of an arguement so you decide to go on her & harrass people instead of convincing them why your ideas are right?

[Proven]

I'm sorry but in turn of recent events I think I have a say here. My car was broken into, my camera gear stolen. It was a couple of 14-16 year olds as my mom described from when she saw them laugh at her when she told them she was calling the police. What would happen if I was home, came out, and beat the living **** out of both of the kids for breaking into my car, and my moms, and our neighbors? I'd be in jail for assaulting a minor, or if they were of age I'd probbably still be in jail for assault. By the book I'm supposed to do nothing until police arrive or until a threat is posed towards me, a knife, a gun, whatever. If they just get into my car, take my ****, and walk away, there's nothing I can do and they can get off with it.

Thanks government for taking another step into my life and telling me that I can't protect myself and my family against criminals. Where I come from, I could beat them, shoot them, whatever, and it would be looked at as justice, here it's looked at as a crime because I am defending myself, my family, and our property. **** that.

This is why the gov. mandates car insurance. So you don’t have to go out there and risk your life for a possession.

If it was to protect yourself or family your allowed to go balls out on um.

[Proven]

Hey Proven... can you do me a favor?

Can you please elaborate for me (as specifically as possible) how you believe this plan will reduce healthcare costs? Feel free to use exact figures on cost reduction, but provide sources.

Hey bastid, long time to speak haha! Can you please elaborate for me how I'm wrong? (as specifically as possible) how you believe this plan will WILL NOT reduce healthcare costs? Feel free to use exact figures on cost reduction, but provide sources..

"right on man"

I don’t have exact numbers because it’s a PLAN.

Obama has already gotten specific with how it will lower costs (did you miss it?) and it makes perfect sense to me that it will. Buying lower cost drugs that are the same exact thing, digital files for more efficient run offices and to stop double/triple testing, competition for drug and health insurance companies which will force them to bring down costs and also be more efficient. etc.

Can you tell me how keeping everything the same will lower costs? I think it goes without saying that the current system is doing nothing but rising costs.

[Proven]

PROVE IT!?


Screaming "prove it" must make you right huh?

You’re kidding me right? I can see why 4DR_DB7 lost it (Although some of his comments went over board it shouldn’t delete the ones that made perfect sense!) the proof is within your "proof". You posted your facts trying to prove that our current healthcare system is why we have higher survival rates, within your proof it states why, and it doesn't look like its because of our healthcare system. It looks like its because of our doctors and technology WHICH WILL STAY THE SAME, NOT TO MENTION THAT SURVIVAL RATE WILL INCREASE WITH THIS BILL DO TO MORE PEOPLE BEING COVERED.

Also, don't try and act like you care about survival rates while NOT caring about getting health coverage to all Americans for them to survive also. It’s frustrating.

[bastid]

I don’t have exact numbers because it’s a PLAN.

But surely there is provision in the now-aborted HR 3200 that specifically addresses lowering cost, isn't there?

Obama has already gotten specific with how it will lower costs (did you miss it?) and it makes perfect sense to me that it will. Buying lower cost drugs that are the same exact thing, digital files for more efficient run offices and to stop double/triple testing, competition for drug and health insurance companies which will force them to bring down costs and also be more efficient. etc.

I've seen Obama speak about the bill as it relates to access to "affordable" healthcare for the uninsured, however I can't seem to locate anything that speaks to how they plan on eliminating the costs of healthcare?

The prescription drug thing doesn't really apply because a deal was made with big pharma which would have protected them in exchange for $150M in pro-HR3200 advertising throughout the remainder of calendar 2009. Digitizing medicine is not addressed in HR3200. I suppose a public option competes against private insurance (even if it is apples to oranges), but what I'm trying to get at is how does this "bring down costs and be more efficient, etc.?"

Can you tell me how keeping everything the same will lower costs? I think it goes without saying that the current system is doing nothing but rising costs.

I never stated once that keeping everything the same will lower costs. I support true healthcare reform. However, you do recognize in your own words quoted above that it is the current system that is causing an increase in cost and not the large demographic of uninsured Americans.

For a brief minute, let's pretend I'm a physician. We'll say that it costs me $50 to perform a physical exam today. Tomorrow everything is identical except I have 10% more patients on my schedule. How much does it cost to perform the same physical exam compared to yesterday?

If your answer is $50, how did insuring more people reduce cost? If the cost is lower, what else changed to reduce the cost from $50?

[ILLJIM69]

Alright now that I am at home for a little bit i can properly respond. When I say deserve I mean those who contribute something to our society whether it be a job, service or whatever. Not those who simply want a handout.

And you need to specify how liberals have been destroying America for the last 75 years because ALOT of change has occurred over the last 75 years. So I curious as to what you're so adamantly exclaiming. And if you haven't noticed the republican party of today isn't what it was 75 years ago neither is the democratic party. Actually historically they have reversed roles. And when you say liberal that can be placed on both sides. There are LIBERAL conservatives, LIBERAL democrats and etc.

And to this whole deserve argument going on......those who actually contribute to society deserve basic health care if not more affordable healthcare.

You aren't telling me anything I don't know about the political parties of today, look at Bush, he was a huge liberal.

Anyway, if I actually have to sit here and point out all the ways that the left wing has been fighting to turn America away from it's roots and more into a socialist state, you are just going to ignore it anyway, so I won't waste my time.

[ILLJIM69]

This thread is hopeless.... seriously guys, I tried, but can't submit myself to this ignorance anymore. Have fun propagating the Right-Wing Fear Mongering Tactics. I hope you all get cancer (and spend every last dollar of your life-savings on treatment and care). :) Best of luck!

The only one spouting off ignorance is people like you, check my sig.

BTW - Don't worry about that last part, robots don't get cancer.

[ILLJIM69]

i didnt say that you cant afford it. but what about the hard working americans that cant? or those out of work? they deserve to die from cancer cuz they cant afford heathcare. what if you had been laid off when companies just started dropping people left and right. you have no job and no healthcare. but uh-oh all of a sudden theres a lump on your boob. what you gonna do?

Life isn't fair sometimes.

[4DR_DB7]

Screaming "prove it" must make you right huh?

You’re kidding me right? I can see why 4DR_DB7 lost it (Although some of his comments went over board it shouldn’t delete the ones that made perfect sense!) the proof is within your "proof". You posted your facts trying to prove that our current healthcare system is why we have higher survival rates, within your proof it states why, and it doesn't look like its because of our healthcare system. It looks like its because of our doctors and technology WHICH WILL STAY THE SAME, NOT TO MENTION THAT SURVIVAL RATE WILL INCREASE WITH THIS BILL DO TO MORE PEOPLE BEING COVERED.

Also, don't try and act like you care about survival rates while NOT caring about getting health coverage to all Americans for them to survive also. It’s frustrating.

Pm'd! :afro:

[ILLJIM69]

The government WILL NOT be deciding whether or not you can have surgery unless your trying to get a nose job or breast implants covered. People paying for coverage wait for procedures to get done already (you might not of, but its not just about you remember), there’s nothing but guesses that say it will take longer under this plan..

PLEASE STOP MAKING GUESSES AND USING TWISTED TRUTH AS YOUR BASIS FOR BEING AGAINTS THIS PLAN.

Our speculations are just as valid as the speculations from those who think this proposed new systems will work better for everyone.

1. Fact, and it will all get better under this plan.

You are just guessing this, it's not a fact at all.


2. Fact - fact #9, 4 and 3 are the reasons why we have better survival rates. NOT because our healthcare system is the 36th best in the world.

First of all, the WHO is a bad organization to base arguments on since they are clearly in favor of socialist programs.

That being said, why do you think we have all the best technologies, medicines and doctors? That's right, because money funds these things. Take that away and there won't be any motivation to come out with new procedures and medicines, plus fewer people will want to get involved in medical fields since a big part of the allure is the pay.

Stop thinking about NOW and look towards the future a little bit.


Once again twisted truth. We have better survival rates because of our doctors and technology. NOT because our current systems is run so perfectly. :bigeek: Our Doctors and tech. will stay the same under this plan and grow. The amount of money used to get the same survival rates will be lessoned. MORE people will actually survive under this plan because more people will be able to get the treatment they need.

And AGAIN, you're just assuming everything will stay the same in terms of our doctors, R&D and everything else.

I am still curious as to what awesome medical advancements France has given the world. You guys who support that type of system have yet to answer that question.


If your all for the fact that our country has a higher survival rate then vote FOR this bill to make it even higher.

And again, more speculation and assumptions. It might work well in the short term, but try and think about your kids of their kids. For people who keep screaming about how selfish we are, you sure do keep thinking about NOW NOW NOW! Another case of American entitlement.

[Proven]

Good debate guys, hopefully no one has hard feelings! Things are seriously running in circles now so I'm done..

ILLJIM69, BASTID, Outlazprez you guys kept it clean for the most part, I respect that. Also, I apologize if I got nasty in any sense.

Hopefully the healthcare system takes a turn for the better! And hopefully no one tries to stop it for the wrong reasons. Lets all hope for change hehe! (messing)

[ILLJIM69]

I always enjoy a good debate. And don't worry about hard feelings, at least not on my part, don't forget, I am just a mindless drone killing robot, we aren't programmed with feelings. :wink:

[polarexpress17]

I signed it, but i don't think its going to make any difference with this government.....

[poolmike]

There will be some protests outside of Patrick Murphy's office in Bristol and Doylestown tomorrow if anyone is interested in going.

[ILLJIM69]

There will be some protests outside of Patrick Murphy's office in Bristol and Doylestown tomorrow if anyone is interested in going.

Dude, that guy is a real jackass. Once I saw that he wanted to repeal the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy in the military, I didn't like him. I find it funny that it's always the people who aren't ACTIVELY serving who want to do away with that policy. :roll:

Anyways, fcuk him.

/random

[4DR_DB7]

There will be some protests outside of Patrick Murphy's office in Bristol and Doylestown tomorrow if anyone is interested in going.

http://www.kentucky.com/947/image_media/901988.html

[TrboChicsRock]

What Vegas Can Teach Congress (http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-08-17/what-vegas-can-teach-congress/)

“Word of mouth” about generous payouts often determines the success of a gambling casino, according to Las Vegas journalist Jeff Burbank, author of License to Steal. “Customers are going to go where there are better payouts.” In the Old West, if one town’s gambling saloons were flat stores, the customer went on to the next town looking for a game on the square. In the current state of the health-care industry, there is no next town, no competition. The entire game is rigged in favor of the “house.” It is hardly a surprise, then, that the health cartel is spending more than $1.5 million a day to kill a government-run public option that would directly compete with the private sector. “They don’t want any more competition period,” Potter told Moyers. “They certainly don’t want it from a government plan that might be operating more efficiently than they are.”

I'm sure that 1.5 mil a day could really be helping thousands and thousands of sick people who are currently fighting denied health insurance claims.

People are complaining about their money going towards helping those that don't deserve it. Well, how do you feel about it currently going towards rich lawyers and lobbyists??

[ILLJIM69]

What Vegas Can Teach Congress (http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-08-17/what-vegas-can-teach-congress/)



I'm sure that 1.5 mil a day could really be helping thousands and thousands of sick people who are currently fighting denied health insurance claims.

People are complaining about their money going towards helping those that don't deserve it. Well, how do you feel about it currently going towards rich lawyers and lobbyists??

And I am sure there are other ways to pay for this that don't include more taxes. How about we cut the pay rates for politicians, a little bit, nothing drastic. I bet if they did that across the country, there would be enough money. Besides, politicians should be doing what they do not for the pay, benefits and power, but rather because they have a strong will to want to help the country and serve the people........this would be a good start and it would send a strong message that they care enough to take a small pay cut.

/thinking out loud

[ILLJIM69]

http://www.kentucky.com/947/image_media/901988.html

Yeah, because liberals never protest, shout and act weird. :roll:

[bastid]

What Vegas Can Teach Congress (http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-08-17/what-vegas-can-teach-congress/)



I'm sure that 1.5 mil a day could really be helping thousands and thousands of sick people who are currently fighting denied health insurance claims.

People are complaining about their money going towards helping those that don't deserve it. Well, how do you feel about it currently going towards rich lawyers and lobbyists??

$1.5M is a good start, but it only represents 0.0238% of spending on healthcare (annualized).

A bigger bang item would be eliminating rules preventing insurance companies from spreading across state lines. This would increase competition in the private sector by allowing smaller insurances to grow without redundant overhead. It would also bring overhead costs down on large nationwide insurers who pay duplicate administrative (x50). This alone would free up $350B annually or more than $1 out of every $7 spent on healthcare.

The smart insurers would lower their premiums and still be able to maintain their growth and profit margins while the ones who stayed firm at a higher price would quickly lose their enrollment base in favor of the more competitive insurance company.

[ILLJIM69]

$1.5M is a good start, but it only represents 0.0238% of spending on healthcare (annualized).

A bigger bang item would be eliminating rules preventing insurance companies from spreading across state lines. This would increase competition in the private sector by allowing smaller insurances to grow without redundant overhead. It would also bring overhead costs down on large nationwide insurers who pay duplicate administrative (x50). This alone would free up $350B annually or more than $1 out of every $7 spent on healthcare.

The smart insurers would lower their premiums and still be able to maintain their growth and profit margins while the ones who stayed firm at a higher price would quickly lose their enrollment base in favor of the more competitive insurance company.

Don't forget some form of regulation concerning the number of malpractice suits. People need to go into any medical procedure with the understanding that nothing is 100% guaranteed and unless there is some form of gross negligence (docs leaving tools in your body, cutting off your leg instead of removing your tonsils, etc), you have no right to sue. If doctors and hospitals didn't have to carry malpractice insurance that ventures into the millions of dollars, costs will go down.

[4DR_DB7]

Yeah, because liberals never protest, shout and act weird. :roll:

haha, that went way over your head. The point of it is, its ironic, because the psycho's whom we should be afraid of are all the radical right-wing gun collectors.... definitely some kind of mental defect that causes you to become obsessed with guns, violence and killing. I don't worry about drug dealers and terrorists, I worry about war veterans, NRA nutjobs and ex-cops who are out driving around on the highway with trigger-fingers just looking to get into an altercation with someone so they can pull their gun out....

[CleanNeon98]

This is why the gov. mandates car insurance. So you don’t have to go out there and risk your life for a possession.

If it was to protect yourself or family your allowed to go balls out on um.
Car insurance has nothing to do with this, it will be covered under homeowners, but speaking of government, they also say that in situations like these I can't protect myself and my property. Some "free" america we live in, well I guess it is free since minors are allowed to loot cars and get away unpunished, THEY are free.
Proven - don't waste your time on these guys. They are closed-minded radical right wingers, like Rush Limbaugh. You know there is no reasoning with them. They don't even know why they hold the beliefs that they do... so how could you possibly convince them otherwise. Its not like they see things objectively so that you could actually influence their opinions with logic. :D

This thread is just an outlet for all the whiny cry-babies who are still butt-sore about losing the election. Period. The end.
Obama was voted in mainly by uneducated, bandwagon hopping, racially biased morons who bought into his socialist ideals.

[ILLJIM69]

haha, that went way over your head. The point of it is, its ironic, because the psycho's whom we should be afraid of are all the radical right-wing gun collectors.... definitely some kind of mental defect that causes you to become obsessed with guns, violence and killing. I don't worry about drug dealers and terrorists, I worry about war veterans, NRA nutjobs and ex-cops who are out driving around on the highway with trigger-fingers just looking to get into an altercation with someone so they can pull their gun out....

And I am the one who has lost touch with reality? :lol:

[CleanNeon98]

haha, that went way over your head. The point of it is, its ironic, because the psycho's whom we should be afraid of are all the radical right-wing gun collectors.... definitely some kind of mental defect that causes you to become obsessed with guns, violence and killing. I don't worry about drug dealers and terrorists, I worry about war veterans, NRA nutjobs and ex-cops who are out driving around on the highway with trigger-fingers just looking to get into an altercation with someone so they can pull their gun out....
Then you have bigger problems than gun nuts, who IMO are only doing what the government wont, killing the scum and filth in this country one by one.

I'm sure drug dealers won't be a worry for you when they are selling drugs around your kid's school, but hey, that former cop with a desert eagle who wants to take the law into his own hands and make the neighborhood a better place, arrest him, god forbid progress is made for the better! Let the dealer keep selling around the school, good plan! Did Obama fax it to you?

[FocusDude]

I already had to drop my coverage through my employer (a small business) because it was WAY too expensive and I wasn't bringing home enough money at the end of the week. I had to search around for a cheaper private policy as an alternative... and its still too much. Why do you just assume that everyone should have to pay for healthcare?? Because thats what you were told.

Instead of buying that CF hood get your ass some health insurance. WTF are our priorities?

[3rdGenMr2Girl]

^ didn't you know, carbon fiber > health insurance.

[4DR_DB7]

^ didn't you know, carbon fiber > health insurance.

I have health insurance, thanks. Its gone up 90% from the time I graduated college till now. I don't mind paying health insurnace, its just way too expensive....especially considering I never use it, since I'm a healthy 28 year old male. However, if my daughter ever got sick, I would need to have it. Alas, Maybe if I lived with my mommy and daddy (and wasn't a home-owner, contributing hundreds/thousands in property taxes every year) I would have more money to mod-out my car with turbos and stuff. :-p

If I was the only person in this country that I cared about, it wouldn't be as big an issue. I'm not a self-centered ego-maniac though, like some people who will remain nameless.. however, I did grow up near the Main Line, so I'm quite familar with the "i'm up on a pedestal above you, I worked hard to get here, so you obviously don't work hard enough and thus I don't care about you"-fallacy. You do understand that if our country were made up entirely of people like you, it would go to hell in a handbasket? I'm pretty sure Obama cares about more than just himself and his family and friends (unlike McCain), which is why he is the President, and you are a nobody.

3rdGen - what are you 20? :D you have NO CLUE about the real world honey. Come back to this thread when you are actually independent and not being supported by your well-to-do family in ritzy west chester.

[FocusDude]

Alas, Maybe if I lived with my mommy and daddy (and wasn't a home-owner, wasting hundreds/thousands in property taxes every year)

Fixed that, Just because you pay taxes does not mean you are contributing to anything. Like I stated before (in another thread) if you would pay attention to your own state, and knew how your taxes were squandered on silly pet projects you would be as irate as those in west chester.
Oh but it's Bush's fault NJ is in the condition it's in? It wouldn't be the fact you morons have been voting in the same Dems year after year after year.

3rdGen - what are you 20? :D you have NO CLUE about the real world honey. Come back to this thread when you are actually independent and not being supported by your well-to-do family in ritzy west chester.

OMG, how dare her parents make a good living for themselves in order to provide better for their children. This sir is close-mindedness.
I hope in 15 years someone looks at your child with the same respect. Or lack there of-

And remember its her family that is probably paying more in taxes in one year then you will in your life. Why because they are successful? Way to promote bettering yourself.

[poolmike]

I have health insurance, thanks. Its gone up 90% from the time I graduated college till now. I don't mind paying health insurnace, its just way too expensive....especially considering I never use it, since I'm a healthy 28 year old male. However, if my daughter ever got sick, I would need to have it. Alas, Maybe if I lived with my mommy and daddy (and wasn't a home-owner, contributing hundreds/thousands in property taxes every year) I would have more money to mod-out my car with turbos and stuff. :-p

If I was the only person in this country that I cared about, it wouldn't be as big an issue. I'm not a self-centered ego-maniac though, like some people who will remain nameless.. however, I did grow up near the Main Line, so I'm quite familar with the "i'm up on a pedestal above you, I worked hard to get here, so you obviously don't work hard enough and thus I don't care about you"-fallacy. You do understand that if our country were made up entirely of people like you, it would go to hell in a handbasket? I'm pretty sure Obama cares about more than just himself and his family and friends (unlike McCain), which is why he is the President, and you are a nobody.

3rdGen - what are you 20? :D you have NO CLUE about the real world honey. Come back to this thread when you are actually independent and not being supported by your well-to-do family in ritzy west chester.


So, what you are saying in the beginning there is you don't want to pay for something you don't use...you have been successfully brainwashed and living in fear that if you/your daughter gets sick, you will be screwed if you don't have insurance. Once again, I stand by not paying into insurance and saving the $$$. If the gov't option is so much better, why aren't all of the gov't employees being forced to use it as a trial before jamming it down my throat? So you are only paying thousands in taxes now? Just wait for the increases to come in.

I believe Ms. 3rdGen is employed and living on her own? I might be wrong, since I don't really know her.

[sisforsurfing]

Obama was voted in mainly by uneducated, bandwagon hopping, racially biased morons who bought into his socialist ideals.

hahahaha
How can you say things like that and actually be serious?
The level of mindless regurgitation in this thread is kind of amazing actually.

[3rdGenMr2Girl]

I have health insurance, thanks. Its gone up 90% from the time I graduated college till now. I don't mind paying health insurnace, its just way too expensive....especially considering I never use it, since I'm a healthy 28 year old male. However, if my daughter ever got sick, I would need to have it. Alas, Maybe if I lived with my mommy and daddy (and wasn't a home-owner, contributing hundreds/thousands in property taxes every year) I would have more money to mod-out my car with turbos and stuff. :-p

If I was the only person in this country that I cared about, it wouldn't be as big an issue. I'm not a self-centered ego-maniac though, like some people who will remain nameless.. however, I did grow up near the Main Line, so I'm quite familar with the "i'm up on a pedestal above you, I worked hard to get here, so you obviously don't work hard enough and thus I don't care about you"-fallacy. You do understand that if our country were made up entirely of people like you, it would go to hell in a handbasket? I'm pretty sure Obama cares about more than just himself and his family and friends (unlike McCain), which is why he is the President, and you are a nobody.

3rdGen - what are you 20? :D you have NO CLUE about the real world honey. Come back to this thread when you are actually independent and not being supported by your well-to-do family in ritzy west chester.


hahahha you f**king asshat. i moved out of my parents house (who live in reading area, by the way) when i was 17 and moved here. i pay for my own cars, apartment, HEALTH INSURANCE, car insurance, and phone/heat/electric bills, and my college education. i work all the time. so shut your f**king mouth. way to make yourself look like a dumbass. my "well to do" family hasn't paid for a goddamn thing for me since i was in high school.

[poolmike]

hahahha you f**king asshat. i moved out of my parents house (who live in reading area, by the way) when i was 17 and moved here. i pay for my own cars, apartment, HEALTH INSURANCE, car insurance, and phone/heat/electric bills, and my college education. i work all the time. so shut your f**king mouth. way to make yourself look like a dumbass. my "well to do" family hasn't paid for a goddamn thing for me since i was in high school.

Ahh, I thought that was your story. Couldn't remember exactly.

[3rdGenMr2Girl]

it pisses me off how everyone assumes that since i'm 20, my parents pay for me. that's not how it goes.

[poolmike]

hahahaha
How can you say things like that and actually be serious?
The level of mindless regurgitation in this thread is kind of amazing actually.

Chris, it is not mindless regurgitation, well maybe to a liberal. Being an outsider that hates all politicians and meets people of all shapes and sizes, I can say that there are a lot of folks that voted for Obama, just to vote for him. There were plenty of idiots out there voting for McCain also. I would say that Alex is spot on.

Speaking of Russians, here is some food for thought. I have an expanding list of clients from Ukraine and other socialist countries. These folks tell me that they are scared of what is coming. When a Russian says that they are scared of Obama, I get a little freaked out.

[3rdGenMr2Girl]

^ my dad deals with people all over the world as well, and he hears the same thing.

[ILLJIM69]

hahahaha
How can you say things like that and actually be serious?
The level of mindless regurgitation in this thread is kind of amazing actually.

So then you are denying that groups like ACORN went into predominantly minority areas to seek out people who normally didn't vote to register and vote for Obama?

Yes yes, I know, I know......."it's a good thing that they were out getting people involved". Yeah, too bad they were clearly biased on who the people should vote for AND where were they before a black guy was running for office? Hmmmm.......

[sisforsurfing]

Chris, it is not mindless regurgitation, well maybe to a liberal. Being an outsider that hates all politicians and meets people of all shapes and sizes, I can say that there are a lot of folks that voted for Obama, just to vote for him. There were plenty of idiots out there voting for McCain also. I would say that Alex is spot on.

Speaking of Russians, here is some food for thought. I have an expanding list of clients from Ukraine and other socialist countries. These folks tell me that they are scared of what is coming. When a Russian says that they are scared of Obama, I get a little freaked out.
Not referring to much if any of what you're saying at all, Mike. And re: what you said in the other thread, if you're a selfish prick I don't want to know what that makes me!

but the only way Alex is spot on is if he's arguing that the majority of the vote on both sides was full of uneducated morons, in which case I wouldn't have so quickly laughed and disagreed. Just pointing to voters for Obama is the same jaded bias that's making this whole thread so ridiculous.

So then you are denying that groups like ACORN went into predominantly minority areas to seek out people who normally didn't vote to register and vote for Obama?

Yes yes, I know, I know......."it's a good thing that they were out getting people involved". Yeah, too bad they were clearly biased on who the people should vote for AND where were they before a black guy was running for office? Hmmmm.......

The quote was that Obama was MAINLY voted in by uneducated, racially biased morons. That type of statement, to anyone with an ounce of sense, makes the person who said it just seem foolish. Using citations that are a fraction of a percent of the voting population hardly backs up a statement referring to a majority.

[poolmike]

Oh look, the gov't made another gross miscalculation. Nothing serious, just a $trillion or 2....and this does NOT include the new healthcare plan.


http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE57K4XE20090821?rpc=60

[CHAOS]

i really want to contribute to this thread... but theres nothing i can say that hasnt already been said... the next step is action... and we all know how frightening that prospect can be.

[bastid]

Oh look, the gov't made another gross miscalculation. Nothing serious, just a $trillion or 2....and this does NOT include the new healthcare plan.


http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE57K4XE20090821?rpc=60

"The Department of Defense was briefing the President this morning. They told Obama that 2 Brazilian soldiers were killed in Iraq. To everyone's surprise, all the color drained from Obama's face. Then he collapsed onto his desk, head in his hands, visibly shaken, almost in tears. Finally he composed himself and asked, "Just how many is a brazilian?"

[OutlawzPrez]

You must watch this video. Mike Sola (father of a disabled child) hits back at Princess Nancy Patricia D'Alesandro Pelosi and the rest of the left wing Congress that is trying to foist an evil socialized medicine plan on America.

Just for knowing, Obama's thugs came to his house and threatened this wonderful father of a child afflicted with cerebral palsy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06MlnC20gWE&feature=player_embedded

THE NEW YORK TIMES: DEADLY DOCTORS by BETSY MCCAUGHEY
July 24, 2009

THE health bills coming out of Congress would put the decisions about your care in the hands of presidential appointees. They'd decide what plans cover, how much leeway your doctor will have and what seniors get under Medicare.
Yet at least two of President Obama's top health advisers should never be trusted with that power.

Start with Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, the brother of White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel. He has already been appointed to two key positions: health-policy adviser at the Office of Management and Budget and a member of Federal Council on Comparative Effectiveness Research. Emanuel bluntly admits that the cuts will not be pain-free. "Vague promises of savings from cutting waste, enhancing prevention and wellness, installing electronic medical records and improving quality are merely 'lipstick' cost control, more for show and public relations than for true change," he wrote last year (Health Affairs Feb. 27, 2008).

Savings, he writes, will require changing how doctors think about their patients: Doctors take the Hippocratic Oath too seriously, "as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of the cost or effects on others" (Journal of the American Medical Association, June 18, 2008). Yes, that's what patients want their doctors to do. But Emanuel wants doctors to look beyond the needs of their patients and consider social justice, such as whether the money could be better spent on somebody else. Many doctors are horrified by this notion; they'll tell you that a doctor's job is to achieve social justice one patient at a time.

Emanuel, however, believes that "communitarianism" should guide decisions on who gets care. He says medical care should be reserved for the non-disabled, not given to those "who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens . . . An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia" (Hastings Center Report, Nov.-Dec. '96).

Translation: Don't give much care to a grandmother with Parkinson's or a child with cerebral palsy.

He explicitly defends discrimination against older patients: "Unlike allocation by sex or race, allocation by age is not invidious discrimination; every person lives through different life stages rather than being a single age. Even if 25-year-olds receive priority over 65-year-olds, everyone who is 65 years now was previously 25 years" (Lancet, Jan. 31).

The bills being rushed through Congress will be paid for largely by a $500 billion-plus cut in Medicare over 10 years. Knowing how unpopular the cuts will be, the president's budget director, Peter Orszag, urged Congress this week to delegate its own authority over Medicare to a new, presidentially-appointed bureaucracy that wouldn't be accountable to the public.

Since Medicare was founded in 1965, seniors' lives have been transformed by new medical treatments such as angioplasty, bypass surgery and hip and knee replacements. These innovations allow the elderly to lead active lives. But Emanuel criticizes Americans for being too "enamored with technology" and is determined to reduce access to it.

Dr. David Blumenthal, another key Obama adviser, agrees. He recommends slowing medical innovation to control health spending.

Blumenthal has long advocated government health-spending controls, though he concedes they're "associated with longer waits" and "reduced availability of new and expensive treatments and devices" (New England Journal of Medicine, March 8, 2001). But he calls it "debatable" whether the timely care Americans get is worth the cost. (Ask a cancer patient, and you'll get a different answer. Delay lowers your chances of survival.)

Obama appointed Blumenthal as national coordinator of health-information technology, a job that involves making sure doctors obey electronically deivered guidelines about what care the government deems appropriate and cost effective.

In the April 9 New England Journal of Medicine, Blumenthal predicted that many doctors would resist "embedded clinical decision support" -- a euphemism for computers telling doctors what to do.

Americans need to know what the president's health advisers have in mind for them. Emanuel sees even basic amenities as luxuries and says Americans expect too much: "Hospital rooms in the United States offer more privacy . . . physicians' offices are typically more conveniently located and have parking nearby and more attractive waiting rooms" (JAMA, June 18, 2008).

No one has leveled with the public about these dangerous views. Nor have most people heard about the arm-twisting, Chicago-style tactics being used to force support. In a Nov. 16, 2008, Health Care Watch column, Emanuel explained how business should be done: "Every favor to a constituency should be linked to support for the health-care reform agenda. If the automakers want a bailout, then they and their suppliers have to agree to support and lobby for the administration's health-reform effort."

Do we want a "reform" that empowers people like this to decide for us?

Betsy McCaughey is founder of the Committee to Reduce Infec tion Deaths and a former New York lieutenant governor.

[OutlawzPrez]

Thats cool man. I don't feel bad for dumbasses who can't do anything better in life so they join the army and get their legs blown up in Iraq. Tough loss boys, but you got yourself into this mess. Don't ask for any sympathy from us.... don't ask for Tax-payer dollars to fund your care for the rest of your life.... You never did jack for me, why should I do anything for you?

... TST's official D-Bag of the week.

[Z31Fanatic]

I also find it funny that the democrat voting folks here criticize Fox News for being biased when the truth is that they actually show ads from both sides, pro or against healthcare plan while ABC and NBC have completely refused to show the ads that are against this plan.

[ILLJIM69]

I also find it funny that the democrat voting folks here criticize Fox News for being biased when the truth is that they actually show ads from both sides, pro or against healthcare plan while ABC and NBC have completely refused to show the ads that are against this plan.

They don't need to discuss any other views because the liberals know what is best for everyone.

[Z31Fanatic]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:
Just heard that the people will be paying income tax on that $4500 they got for the cash for clunkers program. :lol:

CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HOPE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:rofl::rofl:

I bet the people that bought those cars did not think or know about that :mrgreen:

[Proven]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:
Just heard that the people will be paying income tax on that $4500 they got for the cash for clunkers program. :lol:

CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HOPE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:rofl::rofl:

I bet the people that bought those cars did not think or know about that :mrgreen:

O well I guess I'll touch in a bit once again.. Just for a bit though :wink:

I guess you just found out about taxes in general huh?

With rebates you pay the full amount then you get the 3500-4500 back. This means that 3500-4500 is within the final price of the car and taxed (Average 6% tax on 4500 = $270 dollars of tax.). Nothing new here going on here!

In PA they aren’t taxing the rebate and using it as a Down payment, in some states they are taxing it as part of the final price. The taxing on the rebate is up to the individual state and/or dealer not Obama :bigeek:

The article I read was about a guy who bought a car in PA then took it to Maryland to pay the vehicle taxes (you pay the tax for the state you live in, not buy from). He then found out that the 4500 was included in the taxing. He cried, call the papers, and they flipped it into the “cash for clunkers hidden agenda” hahaha fu*king pathetic!!! Another example of people trying very hard to find something wrong with Obama that has holes.

Customer above made out big time with his trade in/clunker.

He can also file that money for income tax (income tax you get back). This means when he files he can include that 4500.

[Proven]

You must watch this video. Mike Sola (father of a disabled child) hits back at Princess Nancy Patricia D'Alesandro Pelosi and the rest of the left wing Congress that is trying to foist an evil socialized medicine plan on America.

Just for knowing, Obama's thugs came to his house and threatened this wonderful father of a child afflicted with cerebral palsy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06MlnC20gWE&feature=player_embedded

.

The guy in the video is clearly under the impression that his son’s health benefits will be cut along with his. He repeatedly said " I will die, this IS a death sentence for me" haha! Not true what so ever and only fueled by speculation. In the end you have a miss informed angry old man screaming and yelling for no real reason other then what he was fed by twisted truth and lies. If ANYONE in here thinks how he went about it was the right way your also a idiot. “I’m an American” yeah, he is, but a angry misinformed one that didn’t get sh** solved.

He needed to be removed, wasn’t getting anywhere with his yelling, and I doubt he was threatened verbally by anyone (he was the threating one in that room). Dude could also barely keep his composer in the interview. I’m sure when he was visited it was to calm him down and let it be known his sons and his health care will not suffer… Most likely he reacted the same way he did in the video and refused to believe. He also said he voted for both candidates :bigeek:

O, and they came to his house after dark, how sinister of them!.. He then "threatened" to kill them if they came back haha!!.. Your kidding with this video right!!?



Thanks for the pathetic example of people againts this bill.

[Z31Fanatic]

O well I guess I'll touch in a bit once again.. Just for a bit though :wink:

I guess you just found out about taxes in general huh?

With rebates you pay the full amount then you get the 3500-4500 back. This means that 3500-4500 is within the final price of the car and taxed (Average 6% tax on 4500 = $270 dollars of tax.). Nothing new here going on here!

In PA they aren’t taxing the rebate and using it as a Down payment, in some states they are taxing it as part of the final price. The taxing on the rebate is up to the individual state and/or dealer not Obama :bigeek:

The article I read was about a guy who bought a car in PA then took it to Maryland to pay the vehicle taxes (you pay the tax for the state you live in, not buy from). He then found out that the 4500 was included in the taxing. He cried, call the papers, and they flipped it into the “cash for clunkers hidden agenda” hahaha fu*king pathetic!!! Another example of people trying very hard to find something wrong with Obama that has holes.

Customer above made out big time with his trade in/clunker.

He can also file that money for income tax (income tax you get back). This means when he files he can include that 4500.
:lol::lol::lol::lol:
If you knew about the taxes then why didn't you mention them when you were praising the program?
Is it because it wouldn't have sounded as good? :lol:

[ILLJIM69]

The guy in the video is clearly under the impression that his son’s health benefits will be cut along with his. He repeatedly said " I will die, this IS a death sentence for me" haha! Not true what so ever and only fueled by speculation. In the end you have a miss informed angry old man screaming and yelling for no real reason other then what he was fed by twisted truth and lies. If ANYONE in here thinks how he went about it was the right way your also a idiot. “I’m an American” yeah, he is, but a angry misinformed one that didn’t get sh** solved.

He needed to be removed, wasn’t getting anywhere with his yelling, and I doubt he was threatened verbally by anyone (he was the threating one in that room). Dude could also barely keep his composer in the interview. I’m sure when he was visited it was to calm him down and let it be known his sons and his health care will not suffer… Most likely he reacted the same way he did in the video and refused to believe. He also said he voted for both candidates :bigeek:

O, and they came to his house after dark, how sinister of them!.. He then "threatened" to kill them if they came back haha!!.. Your kidding with this video right!!?



Thanks for the pathetic example of people againts this bill.

No different than the extreme and misconstrued examples of propaganda used by the left.

[OutlawzPrez]

So I just got done reading some more of this 1017 page bill & I've noticed that alot of it deals with penalties, taxes & fines. It seems like another back door way for the gov't to make money off us.

[OutlawzPrez]

Here's another thing that I just got done reading from the bill. I would like to copy & paste alot of this but pdf file viewer won't let me.

Page 336 "(VI) other measures of outcomes & patient quality of life as determined by the secretary.

[poolmike]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203706604574374463280098676.html?m od=wsj_share_facebook

[OutlawzPrez]

Great find my friend

[Proven]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:
If you knew about the taxes then why didn't you mention them when you were praising the program?
Is it because it wouldn't have sounded as good? :lol:


I seriously figured I was dealing with logical and educated people considering they had such strong opinions on what the “facts” were. I figured everyone knew how tax and rebates worked. My fault for thinking you all knew stuff other then what news articles tell you.

Maybe that’s Obama biggest mistake in general. He made the mistake of over estimating the logical abilities of the American people and how media would affect them.

[Proven]

No different than the extreme and misconstrued examples of propaganda used by the left.

Fair enough, but also glad you agreed dude in video was "extreme and misconstrued". I bugs me that all that BS (lie's / twisted truth) is what is fueling the guy in the video. Everything he is worried about isn’t true. He has been educated by “right” media and has a clear inability to use logical sense to form his own opnion. NOW other puppets will see that video and most likely think “wow, he’s really upset, and WOW I didn’t know that the elderly and handicap will be loosing coverage, there’s NO WAY I’m for this bill now.” And the cycle continues. The right and the media itself has planted a seed that got blown wayyy out of proportion. Its pathetic.

These tactics whether used by the right or left are unethical and misinforming, I agree!

[Proven]

So I just got done reading some more of this 1017 page bill & I've noticed that alot of it deals with penalties, taxes & fines. It seems like another back door way for the gov't to make money off us.

Your still working on finishing the bill that you have a petition to stop? Your kidding right? PLEASE tell me you just remembered and didn't just read... please?

[OutlawzPrez]

I agree that he did go overboard & could of addressed the senator more comly. But this also is a prime example of people getting fed up with large gov't take over & record breaking spending. Rule #1. YOU NEVER SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT!

[OutlawzPrez]

Your still working on finishing the bill that you have a petition to stop? Your kidding right? PLEASE tell me you just remembered and didn't just read... please?

I bet you didn't read alot of the bill my friend. And I did read it, took quite some time though. Obviously I can't remember everything so I go back & read it again & again & again.

[Proven]

Here's another thing that I just got done reading from the bill. I would like to copy & paste alot of this but pdf file viewer won't let me.

Page 336 "(VI) other measures of outcomes & patient quality of life as determined by the secretary.

When you say Secretary please explain to your followers that the lady doing her nails at the front desk isn’t deciding whether you live or die... Also explain that your current greedy health insurance is the one deciding whether you live or die now! (Or not having insurance at all is a death sentence in itself.)

Then explain to your people that this decision is decided when someone is terminal and going to die! It’s a decision to either keep dumping money into testing or start planning for the funeral. If you wish to have money dumped into unnecessary testing go by poolmikes modo and pay for it yourself (considering you had free/ very cheap insurance prior with this plan!.)

[Proven]

I bet you didn't read alot of the bill my friend. And I did read it, took quite some time though. Obviously I can't remember everything so I go back & read it again & again & again.

Sorry, when you said “Here's another thing that I just got done reading from the bill” it really sounded like your still working on it.

I did read the bill and it was brutal, hard to read, and easy to misinterpret. I read it with an open and clear mind and made my own decision on whether it was good or not. I deicided it sounds good and although it does have some holes that need to be filled (as mentioned by lefties and Obama himself) it seems like a solid platform for a successfully run government run plan.

Maybe if I skimmed threw it with a bias agenda (against Obama, against democrat in general) I would also be able to pick, pull, and twists statements into it being an evil plot.

[Z31Fanatic]

I like it when Obama goes on vacation.
We haven't added any debt to the deficit in almost a week! WOOHOO
:lol::lol:

[poolmike]

(Or not having insurance at all is a death sentence in itself.)

Then explain to your people that this decision is decided when someone is terminal and going to die! It’s a decision to either keep dumping money into testing or start planning for the funeral. If you wish to have money dumped into unnecessary testing go by poolmikes modo and pay for it yourself (considering you had free/ very cheap insurance prior with this plan!.)


Proven=successfully brainwashed.

[Proven]

Proven=successfully brainwashed.

Brainwashing: consists of any effort aimed at instilling certain attitudes and beliefs in a person.

Ad’s, new articles, TV shows, etc. getting people thinking that Obama wants to take healthcare coverage AWAY from people, Obama wants to put granny to death, Obama WANTS to give 15 million imagrants healthcare coverage, Obama had a hidden agenda with cash for clunkers, Obama is the next hitler, etc etc etc is a form of brainwashing.

Having a clear enough head to realize all that is BS and twisted truth is not someone who is a product of being brainwashed, your wrong.

[ILLJIM69]

Brainwashing: consists of any effort aimed at instilling certain attitudes and beliefs in a person.

Ad’s, new articles, TV shows, etc. getting people thinking that Obama wants to take healthcare coverage AWAY from people, Obama wants to put granny to death, Obama WANTS to give 15 million imagrants healthcare coverage, Obama had a hidden agenda with cash for clunkers, Obama is the next hitler, etc etc etc is a form of brainwashing.

Having a clear enough head to realize all that is BS and twisted truth is not someone who is a product of being brainwashed, your wrong.

How about all the ads and lies used from Obama and the liberals? A public option is needed? It won't raise taxes? Obama isn't a socialist? I can keep going, I think you're smart enough to know that lies and brainwashing were used on both sides.

Dude, the lefties are now using Ted Kennedy as a martyr for their government run health care plan. The man was a drunk, a murderer and many other things that aren't so nice. Nice pick Dems, LULZ!

[OutlawzPrez]

How about all the ads and lies used from Obama and the liberals? A public option is needed? It won't raise taxes? Obama isn't a socialist? I can keep going, I think you're smart enough to know that lies and brainwashing were used on both sides.

Dude, the lefties are now using Ted Kennedy as a martyr for their government run health care plan. The man was a drunk, a murderer and many other things that aren't so nice. Nice pick Dems, LULZ!

Right on man. Kudo's for the good intel.

[Z31Fanatic]

Again, using emotions instead of logic.
Every week they try a different strategy and every week they fail :lol:


CHANGE!
HOPE!
:lol:

[OutlawzPrez]

Here's another fact for all you people who support this bill. Did u read this Proven?

(STARTING ON PAGE 424) SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION

[Proven]

Here's another fact for all you people who support this bill. Did u read this Proven?

(STARTING ON PAGE 424) SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION

I sure did,

ADVANCE CARE PLANNING - is basically for everyone to meet with their doctors on a 5 year basis to discuss end of life practices such as your WILL, do not resuscitate (spelling) orders, care you would like to receive if you are incoherent at the time, etc. This is a session where YOU decide.

This is a great thing because not many get to make these decisions because it’s to late. Then family is stuck with the burden to sort out the WILL, decide whether or not to “pull the plug”, etc etc… How the HELL you think there is anything wrong with that is beyond me.

What else you got? Maybe a story how Obama saved a kitten from a tree but that same kitten wasn’t born in America?

[OutlawzPrez]

But there is a "limit" on what treatment/s & or care u can recieve determined by the secretary.

[poolmike]

Ban all forms of health insurance, public or private. Survival of the fittest.

[OutlawzPrez]

It is a right, not a privilege. Who thinks else wise? not my grandparents & their parents. They came to this country with nothing & worked hard to get what they wanted & didn't expect the gov't to step in for their health coverage. We need to reform the current system. Wouldn't everyone agree?

[OutlawzPrez]

Here's another scary thing from the bill about end of life care. Healthcare rationing.

"Other measures of outcomes and patient quality of life as determined by the secretary. Such measures shall be risk-adjusted as the secretary deems appropriate".

[Proven]

Here's another scary thing from the bill about end of life care. Healthcare rationing.

"Other measures of outcomes and patient quality of life as determined by the secretary. Such measures shall be risk-adjusted as the secretary deems appropriate".

Healthcare rationing for starters is a statement made up by the republicans and people like you. As soon as you tinfoil heads read that over testing and operating with no hopes for survival was going to have to go into review before funded the keyboards lit up.

It’s just a simple way to make sure Hospitals and/or Doctors aren’t draining insurance money for profit knowing that the patient is going to die anyway. Like I said before, if you want to over test, and run tests over and over pay for them yourself at this point.

ITS NOT TAKING COVERAGE AWAY!

Also, keep in mind that EVERY single Insurance Company already “Rations” what they will pay. This is nothing new, just something you and your people blew up for attention as a scare tactic to get people to believe.

[TheBlackesTTRx7]

the health care needs to be redone so bad it makes me furious. my girl can't get treated right now because its a pre existing problem... totally garbage

[poolmike]

the health care needs to be redone so bad it makes me furious. my girl can't get treated right now because its a pre existing problem... totally garbage

One question....do you still pay for health insurance? If so, why? Reform starts with folks like yourself. If the product is broken, don't pay for it!

[ILLJIM69]

^^^BINGO!

I guess by the logic of people not getting coverage based on preexisting problems, I shouldn't be turned down for a loan, ever, since any negative credit is just preexisting.

[Proven]

YEAH, poolmikes right, don’t pay and drop your insurance. This way when you get a broken leg you can pay 10k out of pocket getting it fixed (or be a gimp). Maybe even go broke proving these insurance Companies wrong! That a show them who’s boss!! ****, maybe you’ll get lucky, get cancer and die and really be the boss! :bigeek:

Obviously I’m kidding, and thank god we have a president working on fixing the healthcare system rather then continue to let them have this country by the balls.

Go-bama!!

[ILLJIM69]

YEAH, poolmikes right, don’t pay and drop your insurance. This way when you get a broken leg you can pay 10k out of pocket getting it fixed (or be a gimp). Maybe even go broke proving these insurance Companies wrong! That a show them who’s boss!! ****, maybe you’ll get lucky, get cancer and die and really be the boss! :bigeek:

Obviously I’m kidding, and thank god we have a president working on fixing the healthcare system rather then continue to let them have this country by the balls.

Go-bama!!

I think his point was, if they aren't going to cover you, then why pay for it?

Either way, even without insurance, you can go to the ER for a broken leg and they will fix you up. Stiff them on the bill and the tax payers end up footing the bill anyway, so it will be just like Obama's plan anyway, you should support this outlook.

[OutlawzPrez]

Healthcare rationing for starters is a statement made up by the republicans and people like you. As soon as you tinfoil heads read that over testing and operating with no hopes for survival was going to have to go into review before funded the keyboards lit up.

It’s just a simple way to make sure Hospitals and/or Doctors aren’t draining insurance money for profit knowing that the patient is going to die anyway. Like I said before, if you want to over test, and run tests over and over pay for them yourself at this point.

ITS NOT TAKING COVERAGE AWAY!

Also, keep in mind that EVERY single Insurance Company already “Rations” what they will pay. This is nothing new, just something you and your people blew up for attention as a scare tactic to get people to believe.

So you do admit it. Finally. :wink:

WRONG! My 84 yr old aunt had insurance coverage until the day she died. AND even when the doctors told her she had 3 months to live she was still covered & treated until her dying day. So don't even try to twist the truth again.

[OutlawzPrez]

I think his point was, if they aren't going to cover you, then why pay for it?

Either way, even without insurance, you can go to the ER for a broken leg and they will fix you up. Stiff them on the bill and the tax payers end up footing the bill anyway, so it will be just like Obama's plan anyway, you should support this outlook.

Thats not entirely true my friend. Medical bills are like any other bills, they must be paid. The bill comes to your door. You salary may also be subject to garnishment or u can be sued.

[ILLJIM69]

Thats not entirely true my friend. Medical bills are like any other bills, they must be paid. The bill comes to your door. You salary may also be subject to garnishment or u can be sued.

What about those who don't work, such as social welfare leeches. And illegals? My mistake on that, I should have clarified what I meant by "taxpayers footing the bill".

[ILLJIM69]

Ban all forms of health insurance, public or private. Survival of the fittest.

Isn't that kind of what we have now? It seems as though people want the fittest (those who can afford insurance or get it through work) to support the unfit, which is the problem.

[Proven]

So you do admit it. Finally. :wink:

WRONG! My 84 yr old aunt had insurance coverage until the day she died. AND even when the doctors told her she had 3 months to live she was still covered & treated until her dying day. So don't even try to twist the truth again.

I think I must of said whats wrong with health insurance Companies 1000 times. Your argument is that things will be changing for the worse, when its not.

Also, you think because YOUR grandma got lucky everyone else in the world gets the same treatment and coverage as her? Are you that dense? You’re a prime example of people only thinking of what goes on in their circle and their head..

[Proven]

I think his point was, if they aren't going to cover you, then why pay for it?

Either way, even without insurance, you can go to the ER for a broken leg and they will fix you up. Stiff them on the bill and the tax payers end up footing the bill anyway, so it will be just like Obama's plan anyway, you should support this outlook.


Poolmikes someone that thinks no one should have insurance. I figured his "point" was to not have it in the first place. Also, does it make sense to not have insurance and now pay for everything out of pocket? Of course you can still go to the Hospital and get fixed up. Stiff them on the bill? Then it goes on your credit report and Having bad credit leads to many other issues I'm sure I don’t need to mention. With Obama’s plan you wont have to worry about “stiffing” anyone and your credit will be fine (unless ruined other wise).

Not sure if you realize but your Health coverage, salary, and any schooling/training you receive is paid for by the tax payers (your Military correct?). Maybe quit the Military if your so against Tax payers having to pay for things?

Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate your service! Without Military our Country would be very unsafe (although I feel its power is abused). BUT, I would also like to see our tax dollars being used for saving lives rather then just killing and taking sh** over!

[importpower99]

Thats not entirely true my friend. Medical bills are like any other bills, they must be paid. The bill comes to your door. You salary may also be subject to garnishment or u can be sued.

Ding ding ding ding....Congrats You're correct. If you cannot pay the bill because you don't have health insurance, you will be directed towards a couple of options;
1) You pay in full (Never happens)
2) They will let you make payments for a limited amount of time, and it gets reported to your credit bureau.
And the best one:
3) You either don't pay it, or don't pay it off fast enough, they will give it to a collection agency, so you now have to make larger payments and pay interest.

Nice huh?
This is why I believe that we should do something about making healthcare affordable. When I used to do mortgages, I would say about 7 out of ten people had a medical judgement against them. Some were payed some weren't. But to many people have them.

[importpower99]

What about those who don't work, such as social welfare leeches. And illegals? My mistake on that, I should have clarified what I meant by "taxpayers footing the bill".

Just so your aware 75% of the people on welfare are off it with-in the first year. And not everybody is a leeche.
Plus Bill Clinton took care of those individuals you are refering to, when he reformed welfare. And trust me, you can't live a happy life on welfare.

[Nater]

http://www.jeffhead.com/obama/Obama-Flag5.jpg

[poolmike]

YEAH, poolmikes right, don’t pay and drop your insurance. This way when you get a broken leg you can pay 10k out of pocket getting it fixed (or be a gimp). Maybe even go broke proving these insurance Companies wrong! That a show them who’s boss!! ****, maybe you’ll get lucky, get cancer and die and really be the boss! :bigeek:

Obviously I’m kidding, and thank god we have a president working on fixing the healthcare system rather then continue to let them have this country by the balls.

Go-bama!!

You just proved my point exactly. You are a slacker looking for someone else to pay for your life. Why not sell your Subaru, donate the money to someone less fortunate(me...I don't have a job) and walk everywhere. Then maybe you could afford that oh so precious health insurance WITHOUT dipping into anyone else's pockets. Practice every bit of what you preach before you look into my finances, or you are just as greedy as those successful people you blame for your problems.

[ILLJIM69]

Not sure if you realize but your Health coverage, salary, and any schooling/training you receive is paid for by the tax payers (your Military correct?). Maybe quit the Military if your so against Tax payers having to pay for things?

First off, I have addressed this already, in this thread as a matter of fact. If you want to use that then you better be prepared to give up police, firemen, all forms of politicians, judges, road crews, social workers, etc. A statement like that is the last resort of a 17 year old kid who gets a speeding ticket......"hey, I pay your salary". :roll:

By the way, I WORK for the government, I provide them with my life and they use me as they wish. There is a HUGE difference between what I (and other government employees) do and people who just mooch off the taxpayers or do the bare minimum in life with their hands always out for the next socialist program.

Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate your service! Without Military our Country would be very unsafe (although I feel its power is abused). BUT, I would also like to see our tax dollars being used for saving lives rather then just killing and taking sh** over!

And it is used for saving lives. However I want to know what will be next on the agenda if health care gets taken over (and it will be taken over) by the government. Is it not fair that rich people can buy nice cars and big houses? Shall the working people in America subsidize loans for lower class and jobless people so they too can have a 3,000 square foot house? When does it end? Health care insurance is commodity, a product that you pay for. It is not a right and so far nobody has been able to show me that it is a right afforded to the people.

[ILLJIM69]

Just so your aware 75% of the people on welfare are off it with-in the first year. And not everybody is a leeche.
Plus Bill Clinton took care of those individuals you are refering to, when he reformed welfare. And trust me, you can't live a happy life on welfare.

Really? Because the last time I checked, it was a state and locally funded program. However, if people are on and off within a year, good because it was designed to only get people back on their feet after a layoff or something of the sort.

But I know you're wrong because I see with my own eyes people who stay on social welfare programs for a very long time. You must be confused when I say "welfare". I am talking about SSI, HEAP, food stamps, Section 8, things of this nature.....any program designed to subsidize an expense that everyone else has to work and pay for out of pocket. Hell, in the dump town I lived in prior to moving, the lady across the street didn't do ****. She had her apartment paid for, HEAP covered 75% of her utilities, food stamps........but somehow she had a fairly new car (it was a 2001ish Cavalier and a 70-71 Mustang that was kept in a garage), cable TV, internet, was always out at the bar but magically never at a job, unless you count smoking, drinking and getting stoned a job. Just ONE example, happens all over the country.

I am also sure that tons of people can tell you the usual horror stories of food shopping and having someone on food stamps in front of them buying junk food, soda, steak........things that we have to work for, they get for free...well, they get them on our dime anyway.

EDIT - I am sure you have some form of proof to reflect your stat that 75% of people in America are on any social welfare program no longer than a year (cumulatively).

[Proven]

First off, I have addressed this already, in this thread as a matter of fact. If you want to use that then you better be prepared to give up police, firemen, all forms of politicians, judges, road crews, social workers, etc. A statement like that is the last resort of a 17 year old kid who gets a speeding ticket......"hey, I pay your salary". :rol

By the way, I WORK for the government I provide them with my life and they use me as they wish. There is a HUGE difference between what I (and other government employees) do and people who just mooch off the taxpayers or do the bare minimum in life with their hands always out for the next socialist program.

And it is used for saving lives. However I want to know what will be next on the agenda if health care gets taken over (and it will be taken over) by the government. Is it not fair that rich people can buy nice cars and big houses? Shall the working people in America subsidize loans for lower class and jobless people so they too can have a 3,000 square foot house? When does it end? Health care insurance is commodity, a product that you pay for. It is not a right and so far nobody has been able to show me that it is a right afforded to the people.

Like I mentioned I respect what you do and also respect Police and fire big time. I don't mind paying a cent for the security knowing they will come to my aid. Now If I said I refused to pay taxes for such services (military, police, and fire) because I’m not paying a cent for someone else to have that protection. To me, I think I would look like an ass.

Having your house put out if it catches fire isn’t a RIGHT its a service (product if you will)!

Having your mail delivered also is not a right.

having smooth roads to drive on isnt a right -

I don't mind paying taxes for those services for everyone. They are put in place by government for our safety, protection, and convenience.. Health coverage is just going to be another ones of those things added to the list which protects our nations individual health.

[poolmike]

Like I mentioned I respect what you do and also respect Police and fire big time. I don't mind paying a cent for the security knowing they will come to my aid. Now If I said I refused to pay taxes for such services (military, police, and fire) because I’m not paying a cent for someone else to have that protection. To me, I think I would look like an ass.

Having your house put out if it catches fire isn’t a RIGHT its a service (product if you will)!

Having your mail delivered also is not a right.

having smooth roads to drive on isnt a right -

I don't mind paying taxes for those services for everyone. They are put in place by government for our safety, protection, and convenience.. Health coverage is just going to be another ones of those things added to the list which protects our nations individual health.


If you want to compare your life/healthcare to things like fire depts, police depts, the dept of transportation, etc....great, lets compare. Not one of those systems is run efficiently. You want your health in the hands of those same people? Thanks, but I'll pass.

[noclutch]

Health care insurance is commodity, a product that you pay for.

That's the whole problem. When there's billions in profit for the corporations that run healthcare, everybody loses. It's a monopoly controlled by the few, fueled by money.
While I think the Obama plan has some flaws, it's a lot better then the system in place now. And as for reforming our current system and ignoring the "public option"- It will never happen, there's too much money, too many lobbyists and everybody's for sale.

[importpower99]

Really? Because the last time I checked, it was a state and locally funded program. However, if people are on and off within a year, good because it was designed to only get people back on their feet after a layoff or something of the sort.

But I know you're wrong because I see with my own eyes people who stay on social welfare programs for a very long time. You must be confused when I say "welfare". I am talking about SSI, HEAP, food stamps, Section 8, things of this nature.....any program designed to subsidize an expense that everyone else has to work and pay for out of pocket. Hell, in the dump town I lived in prior to moving, the lady across the street didn't do ****. She had her apartment paid for, HEAP covered 75% of her utilities, food stamps........but somehow she had a fairly new car (it was a 2001ish Cavalier and a 70-71 Mustang that was kept in a garage), cable TV, internet, was always out at the bar but magically never at a job, unless you count smoking, drinking and getting stoned a job. Just ONE example, happens all over the country.

I am also sure that tons of people can tell you the usual horror stories of food shopping and having someone on food stamps in front of them buying junk food, soda, steak........things that we have to work for, they get for free...well, they get them on our dime anyway.

EDIT - I am sure you have some form of proof to reflect your stat that 75% of people in America are on any social welfare program no longer than a year (cumulatively).



REQUIRMENTS FOR WELFARE BENIFITS/ASSISTANCE:
To be eligible for welfare in the United States, an applicant must be a United States citizen or lawfully admitted to the country for permanent residence. Some exceptions may apply to citizenship rules. When an individual applies for welfare, his or her citizenship status is reviewed, along with the status of each household member, before assistance is granted. Each state has its own residency requirements as well. For example, to be eligible in Pennsylvania, an individual must be living within the state and have the intention of remaining there.

A social security number is required for receiving welfare benefits. This is required not just of adults, but also of children in an applying household. If someone in an applying household doesn’t have a social security number, the person must apply for one, provide proof of applying for a number, and give the number to his or her caseworker once it is issued. The caseworker may also require a copy of the person’s social security card.

Often, adults must meet certain work requirements in order to be eligible for welfare. The requirements may vary depending on the program and the state in which the individual is seeking aid. Generally, recipients are expected to seek employment and/or training. Some states provide work training and employment search programs geared specifically towards welfare recipients.

In certain circumstances, a recipient may be exempt from work requirements. For example, an individual in a single-parent household, with a child under 12 months old, may be temporarily excused from work requirements. Temporarily or permanently disabled recipients, as well as those enrolled in substance abuse programs, may be excused from work requirements as well. Additionally, individuals otherwise eligible for aid, but attending college, may be eligible for a work exemption for as long as they are attending school in a program that meets welfare requirements.

Depending on the welfare program, there may be special requirements for single and separated parents, their dependent children, and child support. Typically, recipients are required to seek child support and cooperate fully with welfare’s child support and paternity requirements, including efforts to find an absent parent. Once child support is granted, welfare may intercept all or part of it to compensate for the fact that the individual is receiving assistance. Exemptions from child support cooperation are made for good cause, such as proven domestic violence situations"

Let me tell you a story about sterotypes. Look, most of the stories you hear are usually false and lack crediabilty. The days of welfare queens are over. When was the last time you were standing in line at the grocery store ready to pay for your generic affordable food, when your stuck behind a woman, heavly decked out in gold jewelry. She is paying for her USDA approved sirloin with food stamps, while her 5 kids are running around the checkout counter screaming and breaking s**t.....excatly.
They are required to work, and they are assigned a case worker who reviews there case periodically. The only time they are not required to work, is if they have a child under a certian age.

As far as your neighbor, I couldn't answer that for you. You are probably missing a key piece of evidence that you are purposely with-holding, or really.........just don't know the truth and your guessing. So unless you physically seen her state benefits letter, have proof that she didn't have a job, know that she purchased the car, then your statement is just an opinion, and means nothing.
So can you be wrong? sure! Could she have slipped through the cracks of the system? sure!
They are required to work, and they are assigned a case worker who reviews there case periodically. The only time they are not required to work, is if they have a child under a certian age.

Here is the benefits for welfare:
http://www.dpw.state.pa.us/ServicesPrograms/Other/003676754.htm


And yes Clinton reformed health care, he switched it from dependence to second chance:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/22/opinion/22clinton.html


And if you were refering to Disabilty, then no that figure does not apply to that. I was talking welfare, Section 8, food stamps, TANF, WIC.

[ILLJIM69]

Like I mentioned I respect what you do and also respect Police and fire big time. I don't mind paying a cent for the security knowing they will come to my aid. Now If I said I refused to pay taxes for such services (military, police, and fire) because I’m not paying a cent for someone else to have that protection. To me, I think I would look like an ass.

I honestly don't need the police. I respect them and the job they do, however I can care for my own property and family. Quite frankly, if someone broke into my home, the whole incident would be over way before the cops showed up anyway.

You're trying to compare a product that is for sale (health care) versus civil order and criminal control. Apples and watermelons.

Having your house put out if it catches fire isn’t a RIGHT its a service (product if you will)!

You're right and wrong. First of all, most of the fire departments in my area are volunteer. I understand that the equipment they use is funded by taxes and other means, however these guys don't get paid for the heroic work they do.

However don't think for one minute that if state and locally funded fire departments disappeared today, that there wouldn't be privately run companies showing up to provide that service tomorrow. If people wanted their house put out, they would pay for those services. Not to mention that putting out fires goes beyond protecting private property. Home owners pay taxes on that land and the structures on it, if they all burn down and nobody lives there, then the state and local governments lose money.

Having your mail delivered also is not a right.

You're right, however, much like any other service in America, don't think that a private business wouldn't appear to take over the USPS's role. Besides, letters and card are slowly going the way of the dodo due to the internet. UPS, FedEx and DHL move packages just as well, if not better, than the USPS does.

having smooth roads to drive on isnt a right -

Again, you're right. I wouldn't care if we moved along on dirt roads. I probably wouldn't be driving a low slung sports car though. Keep in mind that our roads are much more than just a means of transportation for private citizens though. They serve to transport goods as well, which benefits everyone, whether you drive or not.

I don't mind paying taxes for those services for everyone. They are put in place by government for our safety, protection, and convenience.. Health coverage is just going to be another ones of those things added to the list which protects our nations individual health.

Yeah, government run. And how efficient are they in the grand scheme of things? Are you really going to try and use things like state run road crews and the USPS for examples of how well the government runs things?

[ILLJIM69]

REQUIRMENTS FOR WELFARE BENIFITS/ASSISTANCE:
To be eligible for welfare in the United States, an applicant must be a United States citizen or lawfully admitted to the country for permanent residence. Some exceptions may apply to citizenship rules. When an individual applies for welfare, his or her citizenship status is reviewed, along with the status of each household member, before assistance is granted. Each state has its own residency requirements as well. For example, to be eligible in Pennsylvania, an individual must be living within the state and have the intention of remaining there.

A social security number is required for receiving welfare benefits. This is required not just of adults, but also of children in an applying household. If someone in an applying household doesn’t have a social security number, the person must apply for one, provide proof of applying for a number, and give the number to his or her caseworker once it is issued. The caseworker may also require a copy of the person’s social security card.

Often, adults must meet certain work requirements in order to be eligible for welfare. The requirements may vary depending on the program and the state in which the individual is seeking aid. Generally, recipients are expected to seek employment and/or training. Some states provide work training and employment search programs geared specifically towards welfare recipients.

In certain circumstances, a recipient may be exempt from work requirements. For example, an individual in a single-parent household, with a child under 12 months old, may be temporarily excused from work requirements. Temporarily or permanently disabled recipients, as well as those enrolled in substance abuse programs, may be excused from work requirements as well. Additionally, individuals otherwise eligible for aid, but attending college, may be eligible for a work exemption for as long as they are attending school in a program that meets welfare requirements.

Depending on the welfare program, there may be special requirements for single and separated parents, their dependent children, and child support. Typically, recipients are required to seek child support and cooperate fully with welfare’s child support and paternity requirements, including efforts to find an absent parent. Once child support is granted, welfare may intercept all or part of it to compensate for the fact that the individual is receiving assistance. Exemptions from child support cooperation are made for good cause, such as proven domestic violence situations"

Let me tell you a story about sterotypes. Look, most of the stories you hear are usually false and lack crediabilty. The days of welfare queens are over. When was the last time you were standing in line at the grocery store ready to pay for your generic affordable food, when your stuck behind a woman, heavly decked out in gold jewelry. She is paying for her USDA approved sirloin with food stamps, while her 5 kids are running around the checkout counter screaming and breaking s**t.....excatly.
They are required to work, and they are assigned a case worker who reviews there case periodically. The only time they are not required to work, is if they have a child under a certian age.

As far as your neighbor, I couldn't answer that for you. You are probably missing a key piece of evidence that you are purposely with-holding, or really.........just don't know the truth and your guessing. So unless you physically seen her state benefits letter, have proof that she didn't have a job, know that she purchased the car, then your statement is just an opinion, and means nothing.
So can you be wrong? sure! Could she have slipped through the cracks of the system? sure!
They are required to work, and they are assigned a case worker who reviews there case periodically. The only time they are not required to work, is if they have a child under a certian age.

Here is the benefits for welfare:
http://www.dpw.state.pa.us/ServicesPrograms/Other/003676754.htm


And yes Clinton reformed health care, he switched it from dependence to second chance:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/22/opinion/22clinton.html


And if you were refering to Disabilty, then no that figure does not apply to that. I was talking welfare, Section 8, food stamps, TANF, WIC.

All of that is well and good, but I think it's fair to say that there are standards out there and certain criteria that needs to be met that often is not. There is almost no enforcement in terms of state and local government checking up on these people. If the list of stuff you posted above rang true and the government did a great job of ensuring people didn't abuse the system, I wouldn't have a problem per se. However, they don't. I surely hope that you aren't going to tell me that there aren't people out there who don't latch onto the welfare system for life and never get caught.

Oh and I lumped disability in there because that systems is terribly abused. People just need a note from a doctor (in essence, I know there is some more to it) and they qualify. I see too many people who can do SOME form of work and claim to be disabled. Just because you worked construction and hurt your back doesn't mean you can't find a job less physical. And how about handicap tags? Tell me those aren't easy to get. Same idea behind disability. Hell, when I retire from the military, I will qualify for disability.....at least 10% automatically (probably more since that is usually what people who do 4 years gets), without any actual injuries to show for it. If your brain functions at least partially, you can just go to the docs a few times and complain about your back hurting. Once it's on paper and you go to get out of the military, you can get 25% or more for something that doesn't even exist! Tell me that isn't messed up. And the civilian sector is no better.

[OutlawzPrez]

I honestly don't need the police. I respect them and the job they do, however I can care for my own property and family. Quite frankly, if someone broke into my home, the whole incident would be over way before the cops showed up anyway.

You're trying to compare a product that is for sale (health care) versus civil order and criminal control. Apples and watermelons.



You're right and wrong. First of all, most of the fire departments in my area are volunteer. I understand that the equipment they use is funded by taxes and other means, however these guys don't get paid for the heroic work they do.

However don't think for one minute that if state and locally funded fire departments disappeared today, that there wouldn't be privately run companies showing up to provide that service tomorrow. If people wanted their house put out, they would pay for those services. Not to mention that putting out fires goes beyond protecting private property. Home owners pay taxes on that land and the structures on it, if they all burn down and nobody lives there, then the state and local governments lose money.



You're right, however, much like any other service in America, don't think that a private business wouldn't appear to take over the USPS's role. Besides, letters and card are slowly going the way of the dodo due to the internet. UPS, FedEx and DHL move packages just as well, if not better, than the USPS does.



Again, you're right. I wouldn't care if we moved along on dirt roads. I probably wouldn't be driving a low slung sports car though. Keep in mind that our roads are much more than just a means of transportation for private citizens though. They serve to transport goods as well, which benefits everyone, whether you drive or not.



Yeah, government run. And how efficient are they in the grand scheme of things? Are you really going to try and use things like state run road crews and the USPS for examples of how well the government runs things?

Wow your on fire man. Good job.

[poolmike]

Wow your on fire man. Good job.

I agree. I feel the same way he does. Private businesses would do a much better job at doing EVERYTHING the gov't wants to provide us with.

[noclutch]

Except healthcare, big business has obviously dropped the ball on that one.

[bastid]

Except healthcare, big business has obviously dropped the ball on that one.

Care to elaborate a bit more? How has big business dropped the ball?

[poolmike]

Care to elaborate a bit more? How has big business dropped the ball?

Because you apparently have to pay alot for it, yet they give you nothing in return, but yet you still pay for it because it is a rip-off, because they will pay for you when you are sick. or something. Make sense now? I would also like to know how they dropped the ball and why we need reform?

[noclutch]

Something about the massive amounts of corruption doesn't sit well with me. That and the thousands of insured who when they finally need the insurance get ****ed over due to pre-existing conditions, jacked up rates, denial of services etc (and whatever else the ins. companies come up with so they don't have to pay)... All for billions in profit.

[noclutch]

I used to not have health insurance, I didn't think I needed it. One hospital stay (E.R.) for about 3 hrs., didn't see a doctor(maybe I did for about a minute), didn't get any drugs except an I.V. to hydrate me ended up costing over $2000.

Currently I have insurance, I'm self employed so I pay over $600/month for myself, my wife and our daughter. It costs a fortune but I can't afford not to have it with the inflated cost of healthcare.

Something needs to be done.

[bastid]

Because you apparently have to pay alot for it, yet they give you nothing in return, but yet you still pay for it because it is a rip-off, because they will pay for you when you are sick. or something. Make sense now? I would also like to know how they dropped the ball and why we need reform?

Oh, I was more so trying to get the "new guy in the thread" to elaborate more on his part. I know why it's not working currently :D

Something about the massive amounts of corruption doesn't sit well with me. That and the thousands of insured who when they finally need the insurance get ****ed over due to pre-existing conditions, jacked up rates, denial of services etc (and whatever else the ins. companies come up with so they don't have to pay)... All for billions in profit.

Wait... You are against "massive corruption," yet you believe the government will do a great job fixing the healthcare system? We are doomed.

So, you think what SHOULD happen is someone who is borderline cardiac arrest should be able to get a cheap insurance plan right before a heart attack or stroke, even if they have an irreverible and extremely high risk damage already done? One where they will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to the insurance company, and you're blaming the insurance company. What's the difference in the insurance company denying them enrollment and the US taxpayer footing the bill?

Just trying to play devils advocate.

When you operate a business at a loss, you go out of business. When the government operates at a loss, what happens?

[90blacktsiawd]

When the government operates at a loss, what happens?


They spend more money. Didn't you know that's the answer to all our financial problems?

[noclutch]

No, we start a war.

[Z31Fanatic]

Here are a couple myth/facts that I found interesting:

Myth: Higher health care costs are the result of continually rising insurance premiums, inflating the price of health care.

Fact: Because insurance is a means of financing health care, premiums have to track the underlying cost of health care services. Those underlying costs have been rising and insurance premiums have simply kept pace.

Health care costs drive insurance premiums, not the other way around. Over the last decade, health care costs have risen about 7.7 percent a year on average, and insurance premiums have also risen at 7.7 percent. The overall rise in health care costs is a result of higher rates of chronic conditions such as obesity, diabetes and heart disease, more expensive technologies and procedures becoming available, and "cost shifting by the government" that is, doctors and hospitals charge privately insured patients more to offset the losses that come from Medicare/Medicaid underpayments that do not cover costs. In fact, about 11 percent of the average family commercial Preferred Provider Organization (PPO) premium stems from government cost shifting. Other drivers of cost include waste in the system and how providers are reimbursed for delivering health care services; they are paid by procedure, which many believe leads to unnecessary care.

The primary factors responsible for price increases can and should be addressed through health care reform that emphasizes, for example, the importance of wellness and preventive medicine, administrative simplification, investment in health information technology (HIT), emphasis on evidence-based medicine and health delivery payment reform.


Myth: Health care companies reap huge profits and benefit from the status quo.

Fact: The average profit margin of health care companies stands at only 5 percent, lower than many other industries and other players in the health system. It is better for everyone if we get and keep all Americans covered.

While there’s plenty of talk about “insurance company profits,” the truth is that health insurance companies’ five-year average profit margin is about 5.3 percent. That means for every dollar of revenue insurance companies take in, they make about 5 cents in profit. This is significantly less than drug companies (18.4 percent), cigarette manufacturers (13.4 percent) or computer software companies (22.5 percent). Some companies in recent years have paid about as much in taxes as they made in profit.

[poolmike]

Let's not forget what would happen to insurance companies *IF* we have a major catastrophe in this country. We saw what happened in New Orleans with property insurance. People lost everything and insurance companies could not keep up. The gov't stepped in the way of all progress.

What if some disease comes along and kicks the crap out of the entire east coast? Just think of the tax bill after that. We will be slaves to the gov't.

I want to take care of myself and my family.

[ILLJIM69]

Except healthcare, big business has obviously dropped the ball on that one.

:roll:

Yeah and the government had nothing to do with the way the current system ended up huh? Strict regulations, moronic requirements, not to mention liberal courts awarding every other malpractice suit "victim" a favorable judgement.

Yep, the current state of the health care system is totally the insurance company's faults and nobody else. :roll::roll::roll:

[ILLJIM69]

Something about the massive amounts of corruption doesn't sit well with me.

:lol:

You better hit the reset button on life then because if you think health care is the only facet of life controlled by corruption, I have some bad news for you.

No, we start a war.

Let me know how that works out for you.

[noclutch]

The 'war' comment was obviously a joke.

[ILLJIM69]

Can't be too sure these days.

[Proven]

I honestly don't need the police. I respect them and the job they do, however I can care for my own property and family. Quite frankly, if someone broke into my home, the whole incident would be over way before the cops showed up anyway.

You're trying to compare a product that is for sale (health care) versus civil order and criminal control. Apples and watermelons.

You're right and wrong. First of all, most of the fire departments in my area are volunteer. I understand that the equipment they use is funded by taxes and other means, however these guys don't get paid for the heroic work they do.

However don't think for one minute that if state and locally funded fire departments disappeared today, that there wouldn't be privately run companies showing up to provide that service tomorrow. If people wanted their house put out, they would pay for those services. Not to mention that putting out fires goes beyond protecting private property. Home owners pay taxes on that land and the structures on it, if they all burn down and nobody lives there, then the state and local governments lose money.

You're right, however, much like any other service in America, don't think that a private business wouldn't appear to take over the USPS's role. Besides, letters and card are slowly going the way of the dodo due to the internet. UPS, FedEx and DHL move packages just as well, if not better, than the USPS does.

Again, you're right. I wouldn't care if we moved along on dirt roads. I probably wouldn't be driving a low slung sports car though. Keep in mind that our roads are much more than just a means of transportation for private citizens though. They serve to transport goods as well, which benefits everyone, whether you drive or not.



Yeah, government run. And how efficient are they in the grand scheme of things? Are you really going to try and use things like state run road crews and the USPS for examples of how well the government runs things?

Never said the Government can run business like gods. Alls you did was run around my point by added other points to talk about haha! (To be fair I’ve done it to). Although the government isn’t perfect at their jobs we do have smooth roads to drive on, are safe, and will have someone come to our rescue in time of need (for the most part). Government run healthcare is going to be the same way. It will have holes and not run perfectly smooth all the time but we will ALL have it. One of the main reasons people are against this Bill is because they "don't want to pay anything to help out some slacker" when my point was they already do. Adding one more beneficial thing like healthcare doesn’t make Obama socialists like a lot of POS are saying, it makes him someone who wants his citizens to have healthcare to protect their health.

Also would like to ad that you can't protect your family at all times, Especially from Iraq. I have no problem paying taxes to make sure your family is safe because of our Police and fire. So, you may not need it but your family does.

[Proven]

If you want to compare your life/healthcare to things like fire depts, police depts, the dept of transportation, etc....great, lets compare. Not one of those systems is run efficiently. You want your health in the hands of those same people? Thanks, but I'll pass.

It would be better then nothing..

[ILLJIM69]

Sorry, but I have to break this one down.......

Never said the Government can run business like gods.

I know you didn't say that, however you used certain examples of government entities that we all use (some more than others) and I showed you how they were terrible examples.

Alls you did was run around my point by added other points to talk about haha! (To be fair I’ve done it to).

Actually I didn't run around your point at all, I specifically addressed each part of the point you were trying to make. If I can't counter a point then I will say so, I don't avoid facts and change the subject, that is a liberal tactic.

Although the government isn’t perfect at their jobs we do have smooth roads to drive on,

Smooth compared to what? Rocks? Dirt? Do you live in PA? You must be insane if you think the amount of money spent on the roads in PA reflects the money they collect for road taxes. Some places are better than others across the country, but it's a fair to say that the government doesn't do the best job when it comes to maintaining our roads. Bad example.

are safe,

Again, that is pretty subjective. Go ask a parent of one of the kids murdered at Virginia Tech about how safe their kid was. Ask a store owner in the city that has his place robbed on a weekly basis how safe they feel. Another bad example.

and will have someone come to our rescue in time of need (for the most part).

Problem with that is that by the time they show up, the damage is done. This is of course not the fault of the police or firemen, they can't be everywhere at once.

If someone enters your home with a weapon and the intent to do you or your family harm, you have two options. You can deal with it yourself and call the cops to pick up the body. Or you can call the cops and be the bodies. Guess which one I pick.

Government run healthcare is going to be the same way.

You mean that it will sound good in concept and look good on paper but won't really work out in the long run? I know.

It will have holes and not run perfectly smooth all the time but we will ALL have it.

So you would rather people have the option to buy a car that is 75% reliable with their own money OR get issued a car from the government that only runs 25 of the time?

No kidding it will have holes. I can't honestly think of one area or entity that is run by the federal government (or even most states) that works the way it is supposed to. Can you? Oh please do indulge me in an answer for this.

One of the main reasons people are against this Bill is because they "don't want to pay anything to help out some slacker" when my point was they already do.

You're right, but making us pay more while simultaneously screwing up health care for everyone else is just stupid. And yes, everyone will be effected, one way or another. Think about how many doctors we have now and how much of a pain it can be to see one. Now add tens of millions more people to the mix, but no more extra doctors.

Point is, everyone has the same opportunity to get health insurance and that is all anyone is really entitled to.

Adding one more beneficial thing like healthcare doesn’t make Obama socialists like a lot of POS are saying, it makes him someone who wants his citizens to have healthcare to protect their health.

So people who don't agree with Obama and his plans are now "POS"? How very open minded of you!

Beneficial? You and these happy words. How can you prove that it will be beneficial for everyone? You can't. The only thing you can prove is that people don't currently have insurance, will have it. You act like this proposal will cure cancer. If anything, it will make things worse by adding long lines in hospitals, long waits to get surgeries or treatments, increase the number of people getting "disability", clog ERs even more than they are now, etc.

Also keep in mind that when it comes time for more rules and regulations to be passed, which "company" will these favor..........private insurance companies or the government run "company"? Don't answer that, it's rhetorical.

More affordable health care is a great idea, I don't think you will find anyone to argue with that, even rich people won't mind saving some money. But thinking that the government won't run a totally inept system that will serve it's own interests to control the people is just insane. Give them control of your health and they will control your life in more ways that you can fathom.

Think of the DMV except that everyone in line is hurt or bleeding. YAY! HAPPY TIMES!

Also would like to ad that you can't protect your family at all times, Especially from Iraq. I have no problem paying taxes to make sure your family is safe because of our Police and fire. So, you may not need it but your family does.

Don't sweat it, she was active duty (currently PA national guard), she knows how to handle a firearm and there are a few in the house. :wink:

[Proven]

Sorry, but I have to break this one down.......

I know you didn't say that, however you used certain examples of government entities that we all use (some more than others) and I showed you how they were terrible examples.

I can imagine most people with current healthcare coverage would say they aren’t happy with how they are treated by insurance companies. Using insurance companies and how they conduct business compared to what you think, maybe, might happen with how government runs healthcare is also a terrible example.

Actually I didn't run around your point at all, I specifically addressed each part of the point you were trying to make. If I can't counter a point then I will say so, I don't avoid facts and change the subject, that is a liberal tactic.

Fair enough

Smooth compared to what? Rocks? Dirt? Do you live in PA? You must be insane if you think the amount of money spent on the roads in PA reflects the money they collect for road taxes. Some places are better than others across the country, but it's a fair to say that the government doesn't do the best job when it comes to maintaining our roads. Bad example.

It was a good example of showing that there will be holes and it wont be perfect but you'll still be able to get to work/deliver goods/go see a movie. (ie have health insurance)

Again, that is pretty subjective. Go ask a parent of one of the kids murdered at Virginia Tech about how safe their kid was. Ask a store owner in the city that has his place robbed on a weekly basis how safe they feel. Another bad example.

Pretty much why I said "for the most part" after stating those things. Also goes along with "there will be holes, wont be perfect"

Problem with that is that by the time they show up, the damage is done. This is of course not the fault of the police or firemen, they can't be everywhere at once.

Doesn't mean we don't need them

If someone enters your home with a weapon and the intent to do you or your family harm, you have two options. You can deal with it yourself and call the cops to pick up the body. Or you can call the cops and be the bodies. Guess which one I pick.

Congrats, your a bad dude, A true Rambo if you will (hehe). Not everyone is like you, remember this, and think outside your circle.

You mean that it will sound good in concept and look good on paper but won't really work out in the long run? I know.

So you would rather people have the option to buy a car that is 75% reliable with their own money OR get issued a car from the government that only runs 25 of the time?

Speculation, prove to me that Government run healthcare will run similar to a 25% running car. Also prove to me that the current healthcare system is running anywhere near 100%

No kidding it will have holes. I can't honestly think of one area or entity that is run by the federal government (or even most states) that works the way it is supposed to. Can you? Oh please do indulge me in an answer for this.

I agree, just look at our Military :mrgreen: (just messing with you of course). But to touch in once again with what I just said. Show me how the current healthcare system has no holes and is perfectly run and you'll get my vote.

You're right, but making us pay more while simultaneously screwing up health care for everyone else is just stupid. And yes, everyone will be effected, one way or another. Think about how many doctors we have now and how much of a pain it can be to see one. Now add tens of millions more people to the mix, but no more extra doctors.

Of course the workload will increase, and of course a Hospitals ability to handle the workload will be different, just choose the one that handles it according to your standards. Keep in mind that Doctors and Hospitals are Businesses. They work in an industry that’s about to see 44 million new customers. They will be seeing more business, which will allow them to hire more staff.

Keep in mind that your employer pays your healthcare and that there’s millions of other Americans that also work hard (even risk their lives) and can’t afford it or get it. In a sense your lucky to have coverage because you work for the government.

So people who don't agree with Obama and his plans are now "POS"? How very open minded of you!

I said people calling him a socialist for wanting to offer healthcare are POS. re-read what I wrote not just what you think you saw.

Beneficial? You and these happy words. How can you prove that it will be beneficial for everyone? You can't. The only thing you can prove is that people don't currently have insurance, will have it.

People that dont have insurance that will get it with this bill I find beneficial. Its as simple as that.

You act like this proposal will cure cancer.

I don’t think I mentioned anything about this bill curing cancer. What it will do though is help save the lives of people that have or get cancer that currently don’t have health insurance (along with the many other life threatening illnesses the uninsured have.)

If anything, it will make things worse by adding long lines in hospitals, long waits to get surgeries or treatments, increase the number of people getting "disability", clog ERs even more than they are now, etc.

Also keep in mind that when it comes time for more rules and regulations to be passed, which "company" will these favor..........private insurance companies or the government run "company"? Don't answer that, it's rhetorical.

More affordable health care is a great idea, I don't think you will find anyone to argue with that, even rich people won't mind saving some money. But thinking that the government won't run a totally inept system that will serve it's own interests to control the people is just insane. Give them control of your health and they will control your life in more ways that you can fathom.

Says the man whos life is in COMPLETE control of the govenment and doesnt mind

Think of the DMV except that everyone in line is hurt or bleeding. YAY! HAPPY TIMES!

Haha! I just pictured that scene (seriously, im laughing with you here). But I just don't think it will be like that. The amount of bleeding injured people isn’t going to increase just because they now have coverage. In the systems current state a lot of those bleeding people (without insurance) are stiffing the bill hurting the Hospitals and insurance which in turn of course raises costs

Don't sweat it, she was active duty (currently PA national guard), she knows how to handle a firearm and there are a few in the house. :wink:

Ha! I'm sure shes a tuff cookie, your a lucky man. But not everyone is like you or your wife (military trained). Most of your American people need the assistance that police offer regardless of how fast they can get there.

..........................

[importpower99]

I honestly don't need the police. I respect them and the job they do, however I can care for my own property and family. Quite frankly, if someone broke into my home, the whole incident would be over way before the cops showed up anyway.

You're trying to compare a product that is for sale (health care) versus civil order and criminal control. Apples and watermelons.



You're right and wrong. First of all, most of the fire departments in my area are volunteer. I understand that the equipment they use is funded by taxes and other means, however these guys don't get paid for the heroic work they do.

However don't think for one minute that if state and locally funded fire departments disappeared today, that there wouldn't be privately run companies showing up to provide that service tomorrow. If people wanted their house put out, they would pay for those services. Not to mention that putting out fires goes beyond protecting private property. Home owners pay taxes on that land and the structures on it, if they all burn down and nobody lives there, then the state and local governments lose money.



You're right, however, much like any other service in America, don't think that a private business wouldn't appear to take over the USPS's role. Besides, letters and card are slowly going the way of the dodo due to the internet. UPS, FedEx and DHL move packages just as well, if not better, than the USPS does.



Again, you're right. I wouldn't care if we moved along on dirt roads. I probably wouldn't be driving a low slung sports car though. Keep in mind that our roads are much more than just a means of transportation for private citizens though. They serve to transport goods as well, which benefits everyone, whether you drive or not.



Yeah, government run. And how efficient are they in the grand scheme of things? Are you really going to try and use things like state run road crews and the USPS for examples of how well the government runs things?


Private run fire dept? Hmm.....what is wrong with that? I am hoping you are joking about that. And you say if someone breaks into your house you will deal with it? You want PA to become Texas? (No I'm kidding, I could care less, what you do in your home)
So what if you live in a town house, and your neighbors house is on fire, but doesn't have the funds to pay the fire dept, then what? I guess that means your house will burn down, right! Privatizing the police and fire dept make no sense what so ever.
And that would mean the police and fire dept would now have to turn a profit. No longer will they put there life on the line. If you are trapped in your house due to a fire, they will not risk their life to rescue you. And then do I need to bring up corruption? Privetizing those types of organzations will only lead to the downfall of america, because now the police depts can be paid off by drug dealers (like mexico). And if you don't think corruptions would happen, look at halliburton, KBR, and then look at some corporations.

[importpower99]

Here are a couple myth/facts that I found interesting:

Myth: Higher health care costs are the result of continually rising insurance premiums, inflating the price of health care.

Fact: Because insurance is a means of financing health care, premiums have to track the underlying cost of health care services. Those underlying costs have been rising and insurance premiums have simply kept pace.

Health care costs drive insurance premiums, not the other way around. Over the last decade, health care costs have risen about 7.7 percent a year on average, and insurance premiums have also risen at 7.7 percent. The overall rise in health care costs is a result of higher rates of chronic conditions such as obesity, diabetes and heart disease, more expensive technologies and procedures becoming available, and "cost shifting by the government" that is, doctors and hospitals charge privately insured patients more to offset the losses that come from Medicare/Medicaid underpayments that do not cover costs. In fact, about 11 percent of the average family commercial Preferred Provider Organization (PPO) premium stems from government cost shifting. Other drivers of cost include waste in the system and how providers are reimbursed for delivering health care services; they are paid by procedure, which many believe leads to unnecessary care.

The primary factors responsible for price increases can and should be addressed through health care reform that emphasizes, for example, the importance of wellness and preventive medicine, administrative simplification, investment in health information technology (HIT), emphasis on evidence-based medicine and health delivery payment reform.


Myth: Health care companies reap huge profits and benefit from the status quo.

Fact: The average profit margin of health care companies stands at only 5 percent, lower than many other industries and other players in the health system. It is better for everyone if we get and keep all Americans covered.

While there’s plenty of talk about “insurance company profits,” the truth is that health insurance companies’ five-year average profit margin is about 5.3 percent. That means for every dollar of revenue insurance companies take in, they make about 5 cents in profit. This is significantly less than drug companies (18.4 percent), cigarette manufacturers (13.4 percent) or computer software companies (22.5 percent). Some companies in recent years have paid about as much in taxes as they made in profit.

Wow! Straight off the fox news website!
The last paragraph makes me giggle!
If thats all there profit was, there CEO's wouldn't be able to make 40.2 billion a year. And R. Williams, doesn't even work for the largest health insurance company, and that's what he makes.

[importpower99]

All of that is well and good, but I think it's fair to say that there are standards out there and certain criteria that needs to be met that often is not. There is almost no enforcement in terms of state and local government checking up on these people. If the list of stuff you posted above rang true and the government did a great job of ensuring people didn't abuse the system, I wouldn't have a problem per se. However, they don't. I surely hope that you aren't going to tell me that there aren't people out there who don't latch onto the welfare system for life and never get caught.

Oh and I lumped disability in there because that systems is terribly abused. People just need a note from a doctor (in essence, I know there is some more to it) and they qualify. I see too many people who can do SOME form of work and claim to be disabled. Just because you worked construction and hurt your back doesn't mean you can't find a job less physical. And how about handicap tags? Tell me those aren't easy to get. Same idea behind disability. Hell, when I retire from the military, I will qualify for disability.....at least 10% automatically (probably more since that is usually what people who do 4 years gets), without any actual injuries to show for it. If your brain functions at least partially, you can just go to the docs a few times and complain about your back hurting. Once it's on paper and you go to get out of the military, you can get 25% or more for something that doesn't even exist! Tell me that isn't messed up. And the civilian sector is no better.

Of course people abuse the system, I'm just tring to say that it's not everybody.
And as far as disabilty is concerned:
Well there's two sides, yes I know there are people that abuse the hell out of it. But there is people who may seem fine, but may be in constant pain. The good thing is, that there are more people who don't care to abuse the system and keep it funded for the people that need it.

[bastid]

I can imagine most people with current healthcare coverage would say they aren’t happy with how they are treated by insurance companies. Using insurance companies and how they conduct business compared to what you think, maybe, might happen with how government runs healthcare is also a terrible example.

A large majority of folks (89% as of Oct 2006) were happy with their insurance. 54% of them were NOT happy with the quality of the medical system. 70% of those without insurance claim they have access to healthcare and are pleased with their health. This study was done by Kaiser:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2006-10-15-health-poll1.htm


It was a good example of showing that there will be holes and it wont be perfect but you'll still be able to get to work/deliver goods/go see a movie. (ie have health insurance)

That's the main point of my argument. Having it doesn't mean ANYTHING if isn't readily available and costs continue to rise. Even if the ER stays the same (with respect to non-insureds), the outpatient medical office will be inundated with additional visits. Remember that over 80% of all healthcare is delivered outside the walls of the hospital.


Pretty much why I said "for the most part" after stating those things. Also goes along with "there will be holes, wont be perfect"

If something to this nature gets passed, I guarantee you these will be Obama's words immediately after it goes into effect (in 2013 no less) and it starts to fail.

Doesn't mean we don't need them

Right. A better analogy is that there is a much greater need for their services yet we are doing nothing to get more policemen and firemen. Do you think we would be just as safe against crime or fire if a significant amount of additional crime were being committed and fires started?

Until this HUGE flaw is fixed, any plan that comes out from the government will simply be a plea to get votes from the uninsured. No more, no less.

Congrats, your a bad dude, A true Rambo if you will (hehe). Not everyone is like you, remember this, and think outside your circle.

What he's trying to convey is that in a life or death situation like a home invasion you have a window of time approximately 5-10 seconds which will determine whether or not you and your family will live or die, yet the response time from police even in the best areas of the country is MINUTES away. He recognizes the need to take matters in his own hands. If you draw the same parallel in healthcare, what will we have to do to provide immediate assistance as a "first line of defense?" All learn how to stitch major lacerations? Create a makeshift tourniquet or neck brace? Learn how to administer morphine?

Speculation, prove to me that Government run healthcare will run similar to a 25% running car. Also prove to me that the current healthcare system is running anywhere near 100%

It isn't running at 100%, and that is why we are against shoehorning an additional 45,000,000 people into the system. Please tell me why you think that adding more patients into the current mix will help make the system more efficiently. Just one little tiny fact-based reason. We've all been waiting hundreds of replies worth of time to get to this answer.

I agree, just look at our Military (just messing with you of course). But to touch in once again with what I just said. Show me how the current healthcare system has no holes and is perfectly run and you'll get my vote.

It is business suicide to attempt to grow without first putting infrastructure in place that allows you to grow. If you grow before your organization can support it, you will burst at the seams and your customers will suffer. We do not have the system efficient enough to jam 15% of our citizens in waiting rooms.

Of course the workload will increase, and of course a Hospitals ability to handle the workload will be different, just choose the one that handles it according to your standards. Keep in mind that Doctors and Hospitals are Businesses. They work in an industry that’s about to see 44 million new customers. They will be seeing more business, which will allow them to hire more staff.

So, you are saying that a doctor will be able to see more patients in the same amount of time by simply adding millions of people into the healthcare mix and therefore make more money? Where will they get this extra time to see these additional patients? If they can't magically create more time in their day, where will they find additional doctors?

In a sense your lucky to have coverage because you work for the government.

Seriously? I could see you throwing that out there if he was a paper-pusher for the USPS. In a sense, it is WE are lucky that he's in the military so we don't have to be.

I said people calling him a socialist for wanting to offer healthcare are POS. re-read what I wrote not just what you think you saw.

Taking from one to give to another is a characteristic of socialism. Prove me wrong.

People that dont have insurance that will get it with this bill I find beneficial. Its as simple as that.

See above. 70% of the 45 million uninsured claim to have access to healthcare and are overall happy with their health. Also keep in mind 26% of the remaining 30% are illegal aliens.

I don’t think I mentioned anything about this bill curing cancer. What it will do though is help save the lives of people that have or get cancer that currently don’t have health insurance (along with the many other life threatening illnesses the uninsured have.)

Depends. If it takes 22 months to get a mammogram due to increased demand, how well will we be able to combat against breast cancer?

Says the man whos life is in COMPLETE control of the govenment and doesnt mind

You just totally dodged the issue of affordability.


Haha! I just pictured that scene (seriously, im laughing with you here). But I just don't think it will be like that. The amount of bleeding injured people isn’t going to increase just because they now have coverage. In the systems current state a lot of those bleeding people (without insurance) are stiffing the bill hurting the Hospitals and insurance which in turn of course raises costs

>80% of healthcare is delivered outside the walls of a hospital. Hospitals will always be packed with emergencies due to your reason above. It is the outpatient side that will really suffer from a quality and availability perspective.

What is the difference between the patient stiffing the ER and them now being insured? Either way, they don't foot the bill. Both are being subsidized by the taxpayer, so why pump through a bill like this if the outcome is going to be the same?

Also, you are wrong about what is driving up costs. Among other things, the government (Medicare and Medicaid) underpaying physicians is what raises costs. They need to make up their losses elsewhere, and they do it with higher reimbursement rates from private insurers. And on top of this, Medicare/Medicaid reimbursement is being cut annually. When government cuts their reimbursement to physicians, the private insurances must increase in cost for that doctor to remain in business.

Ha! I'm sure shes a tuff cookie, your a lucky man. But not everyone is like you or your wife (military trained). Most of your American people need the assistance that police offer regardless of how fast they can get there.

If you are dead in your home, there is no assistance that the police can provide outside of lugging you out before you stain the carpet.

[ILLJIM69]

I can imagine most people with current healthcare coverage would say they aren’t happy with how they are treated by insurance companies. Using insurance companies and how they conduct business compared to what you think, maybe, might happen with how government runs healthcare is also a terrible example.

But you are merely using a prediction as to how awesome the government run health care plan will be. The only difference is that we know the federal government pretty much screws up everything they do. They are too big and they should leave each individual state to make their own provisions for health care. Massachusetts did it, seems to be working out for them.

It was a good example of showing that there will be holes and it wont be perfect but you'll still be able to get to work/deliver goods/go see a movie. (ie have health insurance)

Pretty much why I said "for the most part" after stating those things. Also goes along with "there will be holes, wont be perfect"

You're just assuming there will only be holes. You seem to skip right over the part where it will cost us ONE TRILLION dollars, just to start the damn thing. Wait until all the bills start pouring in, it will only get bigger. And don't use any other debt we have accrued over the last 10 years or so as reasoning. Just because we are already in debt up to our eyeballs doesn't mean we need to add to it.

Doesn't mean we don't need them

I don't. I already mentioned why police do me no good in terms of a problem on my property. As for fire, I am prepared to take a total loss on my house if there was a fire. It would burn up so quick, it wouldn't be funny.

But to give into your argument, yes, most people use those services. As it stands right now, the only thing cops do for me is allow me to stimulate the local government by issuing tickets, ha ha ha, which I don't mind paying since I do speed at times.

Congrats, your a bad dude, A true Rambo if you will (hehe). Not everyone is like you, remember this, and think outside your circle.

I am not a true Rambo, I love people like you who always liken those who don't have a problem with defending their family and home to Rambo.

It has nothing to do with "my circle" but has everything to do with the fact that it IS NOT my job to provide for other people's families, it's their job. If people paid attention to their own little circles, we wouldn't be in such bad shape.

Speculation, prove to me that Government run healthcare will run similar to a 25% running car. Also prove to me that the current healthcare system is running anywhere near 100%

How about YOU prove that the government run health care would run better than what we have now. The burden of proof is on you sir, not me. You're the one pushing for an entity that can't run anything right to take control of our health care. You can't provide one service that the Fed runs that isn't screwed up and corrupt.

Of course the workload will increase, and of course a Hospitals ability to handle the workload will be different, just choose the one that handles it according to your standards. Keep in mind that Doctors and Hospitals are Businesses. They work in an industry that’s about to see 44 million new customers. They will be seeing more business, which will allow them to hire more staff.

And I bet you that either less people will get into the medical field or the quality of those in it will drop, mainly due to the pay scale moving down for these jobs. Guess what funds research and development.......yeppers, MONEY!

Oh and hey, can you PLEASE rattle off a few medical marvels that have come from France or Sweden? I ask all the time since people love using those two as examples for socialized health care but they never answer. Once you find a few examples of ground breaking medical discoveries, drugs, procedures or training, I want you to compare it with the list America has.

Keep in mind that your employer pays your healthcare and that there’s millions of other Americans that also work hard (even risk their lives) and can’t afford it or get it. In a sense your lucky to have coverage because you work for the government.

Hey, they can go see their local recruiter and get the same thing I do. Be careful what you wish for though, military health care isn't exactly world renowned for being the best. It's great for saving your life on the battlefield, but not so great for anything else.

I said people calling him a socialist for wanting to offer healthcare are POS. re-read what I wrote not just what you think you saw.

Well I guess I am a POS, although it's more than just his health care stance.

People that dont have insurance that will get it with this bill I find beneficial. Its as simple as that.

You are right, too bad those who have health care insurance already and who are happy with it, are going to be forced to subsidize a plan that they don't use. I say if you don't want the government plan, you shouldn't have to pay for it either. They can revamp MedicAid if they want, lord knows it could use a tune up.

I don’t think I mentioned anything about this bill curing cancer. What it will do though is help save the lives of people that have or get cancer that currently don’t have health insurance (along with the many other life threatening illnesses the uninsured have.)

YAY! So now my tax dollars get to pay for the cancer treatment of guys who smoked for 30 years. My tax dollars will pay for fat people who don't feel the need to exercise and eat fast food every day. Yeah, we should pity those people. :roll:

Says the man whos life is in COMPLETE control of the govenment and doesnt mind

Didn't you use this on me before? Dude, it's by choice. If it gets so bad, I can get out. Nobody forced the Army on me, which is the opposite way this health care bill will be, you will be forced to pay for it regardless if you actually use it. For that matter, people who send their kids to private schools shouldn't pay school taxes. Kind of the same idea.

Haha! I just pictured that scene (seriously, im laughing with you here). But I just don't think it will be like that. The amount of bleeding injured people isn’t going to increase just because they now have coverage. In the systems current state a lot of those bleeding people (without insurance) are stiffing the bill hurting the Hospitals and insurance which in turn of course raises costs

Dude, you're nuts. If you don't think people who wouldn't normally run to the doc for every sniffle, sneeze and cut won't start doing so just because they can, I have some bad news for you. I see it all the time here. The military is really a microcosm of America, sometimes we are even social test beds for programs and products. These are facts.

Ha! I'm sure shes a tuff cookie, your a lucky man. But not everyone is like you or your wife (military trained). Most of your American people need the assistance that police offer regardless of how fast they can get there.

Well the training differs from job to job. As much as the guy in my sig wants to think I am, I am actually not infantry. The wife is only tough with me when it comes to me buying car mods, ha ha ha. I was just saying that she isn't a stranger when it comes to firing weapons.

Most Americans are scared to shoot someone. Why? Probably because liberals make you choose between being the victim or getting sued for shooting an intruder.

[ILLJIM69]

Private run fire dept? Hmm.....what is wrong with that? I am hoping you are joking about that. And you say if someone breaks into your house you will deal with it? You want PA to become Texas? (No I'm kidding, I could care less, what you do in your home)
So what if you live in a town house, and your neighbors house is on fire, but doesn't have the funds to pay the fire dept, then what? I guess that means your house will burn down, right! Privatizing the police and fire dept make no sense what so ever.
And that would mean the police and fire dept would now have to turn a profit. No longer will they put there life on the line. If you are trapped in your house due to a fire, they will not risk their life to rescue you. And then do I need to bring up corruption? Privetizing those types of organzations will only lead to the downfall of america, because now the police depts can be paid off by drug dealers (like mexico). And if you don't think corruptions would happen, look at halliburton, KBR, and then look at some corporations.

It was sort of said in jest. I am not saying private police or fire departments would be ideal, just saying that what the government doesn't provide, businesses will. This is fact.

[ILLJIM69]

Of course people abuse the system, I'm just tring to say that it's not everybody.
And as far as disabilty is concerned:
Well there's two sides, yes I know there are people that abuse the hell out of it. But there is people who may seem fine, but may be in constant pain. The good thing is, that there are more people who don't care to abuse the system and keep it funded for the people that need it.

If they can use that disability to pay bills or go shopping, then clearly they can find a job, even if it's part time, as a clerk, data entry person, etc. My point is that the only people who can't do SOMETHING to be productive are generally bound to a bed and honestly if I were stuck in bed for the rest of my life in constant pain, I would love to be put out of my misery because what's the point of living at that point?

Which brings me to a point that is sort of on topic, but I think doctor assisted suicide should be legal. If I want to die, that is my business. Same goes for anyone else out there that just can't hack it or is in great amounts of pain.

[ILLJIM69]

A large majority of folks (89% as of Oct 2006) were happy with their insurance. 54% of them were NOT happy with the quality of the medical system. 70% of those without insurance claim they have access to healthcare and are pleased with their health. This study was done by Kaiser:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2006-10-15-health-poll1.htm




That's the main point of my argument. Having it doesn't mean ANYTHING if isn't readily available and costs continue to rise. Even if the ER stays the same (with respect to non-insureds), the outpatient medical office will be inundated with additional visits. Remember that over 80% of all healthcare is delivered outside the walls of the hospital.




If something to this nature gets passed, I guarantee you these will be Obama's words immediately after it goes into effect (in 2013 no less) and it starts to fail.



Right. A better analogy is that there is a much greater need for their services yet we are doing nothing to get more policemen and firemen. Do you think we would be just as safe against crime or fire if a significant amount of additional crime were being committed and fires started?

Until this HUGE flaw is fixed, any plan that comes out from the government will simply be a plea to get votes from the uninsured. No more, no less.



What he's trying to convey is that in a life or death situation like a home invasion you have a window of time approximately 5-10 seconds which will determine whether or not you and your family will live or die, yet the response time from police even in the best areas of the country is MINUTES away. He recognizes the need to take matters in his own hands. If you draw the same parallel in healthcare, what will we have to do to provide immediate assistance as a "first line of defense?" All learn how to stitch major lacerations? Create a makeshift tourniquet or neck brace? Learn how to administer morphine?



It isn't running at 100%, and that is why we are against shoehorning an additional 45,000,000 people into the system. Please tell me why you think that adding more patients into the current mix will help make the system more efficiently. Just one little tiny fact-based reason. We've all been waiting hundreds of replies worth of time to get to this answer.



It is business suicide to attempt to grow without first putting infrastructure in place that allows you to grow. If you grow before your organization can support it, you will burst at the seams and your customers will suffer. We do not have the system efficient enough to jam 15% of our citizens in waiting rooms.



So, you are saying that a doctor will be able to see more patients in the same amount of time by simply adding millions of people into the healthcare mix and therefore make more money? Where will they get this extra time to see these additional patients? If they can't magically create more time in their day, where will they find additional doctors?



Seriously? I could see you throwing that out there if he was a paper-pusher for the USPS. In a sense, it is WE are lucky that he's in the military so we don't have to be.



Taking from one to give to another is a characteristic of socialism. Prove me wrong.



See above. 70% of the 45 million uninsured claim to have access to healthcare and are overall happy with their health. Also keep in mind 26% of the remaining 30% are illegal aliens.



Depends. If it takes 22 months to get a mammogram due to increased demand, how well will we be able to combat against breast cancer?



You just totally dodged the issue of affordability.




>80% of healthcare is delivered outside the walls of a hospital. Hospitals will always be packed with emergencies due to your reason above. It is the outpatient side that will really suffer from a quality and availability perspective.

What is the difference between the patient stiffing the ER and them now being insured? Either way, they don't foot the bill. Both are being subsidized by the taxpayer, so why pump through a bill like this if the outcome is going to be the same?

Also, you are wrong about what is driving up costs. Among other things, the government (Medicare and Medicaid) underpaying physicians is what raises costs. They need to make up their losses elsewhere, and they do it with higher reimbursement rates from private insurers. And on top of this, Medicare/Medicaid reimbursement is being cut annually. When government cuts their reimbursement to physicians, the private insurances must increase in cost for that doctor to remain in business.



If you are dead in your home, there is no assistance that the police can provide outside of lugging you out before you stain the carpet.

Well said, I was hoping that I was making sense to someone else besides myself, lol.

[OutlawzPrez]

Figure I'd jump back in this after reading alot of this. I really hope that everyone doesn't believe the number of uninsured Americans that the Obama Administration & the people that wants this passed told you, right? They want this bill passed & will tell you the worst case scenerio & just numbers, but would they ever break it down like this? NO! Just like i said b4, they just want it passed. Here is some "mind opening facts".

With the help of the U.S. Census Bureau, let’s break down the real empirical data behind the “50 million uninsured” in America. Who exactly are they? FACTS:

* 17 Million live in households earning more than $50,000 (38% of American uninsured)



* 9 Million live in households earning more than $75,000 (20% of American uninsured)



* 18 Million of the “young invincibles” (ages 18-34) who spend more money on “cigarettes, entertainment & cell phone bills. (40% of uninsured)



* 14 Million are eligible for Medicaid and SCHIP due to low income and do not enroll. (31% of uninsured)



* There are also 12 Million illegal aliens (and growing) who don't buy Health Insurance but still get "free" health care.



So how many are legitimately uninsured? About 8 Million. That's just 18% of the 45 Million we constantly here about.

Watch “Uninsured in America”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKCWbq18bNk&feature=channel_page

[importpower99]

If they can use that disability to pay bills or go shopping, then clearly they can find a job, even if it's part time, as a clerk, data entry person, etc. My point is that the only people who can't do SOMETHING to be productive are generally bound to a bed and honestly if I were stuck in bed for the rest of my life in constant pain, I would love to be put out of my misery because what's the point of living at that point?

Which brings me to a point that is sort of on topic, but I think doctor assisted suicide should be legal. If I want to die, that is my business. Same goes for anyone else out there that just can't hack it or is in great amounts of pain.

I agree with you 100% on this issue, very few people are 100% disabled. Yes, give them a job holding up stops signs that have fallen over, I don't care. Theres no reason that can't do nothing at all.
And if they changed the name from "assisted suicide" to "I just want to f**kin die, now leave me alone", then it probablywouldn't be illegal.

[importpower99]

That's the main point of my argument. Having it doesn't mean ANYTHING if isn't readily available and costs continue to rise. Even if the ER stays the same (with respect to non-insureds), the outpatient medical office will be inundated with additional visits. Remember that over 80% of all healthcare is delivered outside the walls of the hospital.







The golden statement right there.... Can you see the light!
If people could afford to get annual or semi-annual check ups, more people would be healthier.

Here is a good questions:
"Why do people die from cancer, when it's 99.9 percent treatable?"

Answer: Because do one goes for check-ups, because they cost to much to do when your uninsured. And you are aware cancer is 100% treatable in its early stages, right?

And I'm debating the fact that if check-ups were more affordable, and people were more healthier, there would be no need for a gov't public option.

[Proven]

A large majority of folks (89% as of Oct 2006) were happy with their insurance. 54% of them were NOT happy with the quality of the medical system. 70% of those without insurance claim they have access to healthcare and are pleased with their health. This study was done by Kaiser:

This Bill focuses on both insurance companies and the quality of the medical system. I'm sure most of that 89% are happy that they even have insurance more then happy with their insurance Companies. That 54% should be happy Obama wants to make the system more efficient. The 70% are "claiming" and are happy with their current health, not the healthcare system.

I've taken one of those surveys and they are very bias. One of the Qs. I had to answer was - and I quote "Do you think all Americans should get health coverage along all illegal immigrants" I almost lost my mind, this would clearly lead to most if not all saying no to that qs. Surveys don't tell us sh**.

Right. A better analogy is that there is a much greater need for their services yet we are doing nothing to get more policemen and firemen. Do you think we would be just as safe against crime or fire if a significant amount of additional crime were being committed and fires started?

The bill doesn't say anything about Hospitals or private practices not being able to hire more staff.

It isn't running at 100%, and that is why we are against shoehorning an additional 45,000,000 people into the system. Please tell me why you think that adding more patients into the current mix will help make the system more efficiently. Just one little tiny fact-based reason. We've all been waiting hundreds of replies worth of time to get to this answer.

The bill isn’t just trying to get 45 million people to storm doctor’s offices without proposing a way to make the system more efficient. Ways to make the system more efficient are in the bill.

It is business suicide to attempt to grow without first putting infrastructure in place that allows you to grow. If you grow before your organization can support it, you will burst at the seams and your customers will suffer. We do not have the system efficient enough to jam 15% of our citizens in waiting rooms.

I actually 100% agree on this. Your right when it comes to businesses with competitors. But, I do feel they will eventualy catch up because in this case the customers can’t go anywhere else. If the bill passes things wont start off amazing for sure, Obama himself has admitted this. Just like any Business things start off ruff and then smooth out over time when things are adjusted. NO business has ever started off 100% profitable, efficient, and smooth running

So, you are saying that a doctor will be able to see more patients in the same amount of time by simply adding millions of people into the healthcare mix and therefore make more money? Where will they get this extra time to see these additional patients? If they can't magically create more time in their day, where will they find additional doctors?

The Doctors wont be able to magically create time (Although some quantum physicists will argue they can hehe! - sorry, that’s another thing I’ve been studying about). What Doctors will be able to do though is magically bring in other doctors to the practice. It turns out every year people graduated from Medical school looking for jobs, my guess is that’s where they will start looking for help with the flood of the basic check ups coming in.

Taking from one to give to another is a characteristic of socialism. Prove me wrong.

Characteristic of. Everyday I try to eat some vegetables, doesn’t make me a Vegetarian.

.

...........................................

[bastid]

...........................................

This Bill focuses on both insurance companies and the quality of the medical system. I'm sure most of that 89% are happy that they even have insurance more then happy with their insurance Companies. That 54% should be happy Obama wants to make the system more efficient. The 70% are "claiming" and are happy with their current health, not the healthcare system.

Please point me to specific clauses where the Bill increase the quality and delivery of medicine.

I've taken one of those surveys and they are very bias. One of the Qs. I had to answer was - and I quote "Do you think all Americans should get health coverage along all illegal immigrants" I almost lost my mind, this would clearly lead to most if not all saying no to that qs. Surveys don't tell us sh**.

Kaiser is huge and one of the most respected medical organizations in the world. Their studies are not half-witted.

The bill doesn't say anything about Hospitals or private practices not being able to hire more staff.

How do you hire doctors when there won't be enough doctors to hire? PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING INTO MEDICINE!!! There will be a 50,000 physician shortage by 2016 in primary care alone (some say upward of 200,000 by 2020). More and more people do not want to be doctors in America anymore. Our largest demographic of new physicians is coming from overseas (primarily India).

The bill isn’t just trying to get 45 million people to storm doctor’s offices without proposing a way to make the system more efficient. Ways to make the system more efficient are in the bill./quote]

Name one.

[QUOTE=Proven;1492866]I actually 100% agree on this. Your right when it comes to businesses with competitors. But, I do feel they will eventualy catch up because in this case the customers can’t go anywhere else. If the bill passes things wont start off amazing for sure, Obama himself has admitted this. Just like any Business things start off ruff and then smooth out over time when things are adjusted. NO business has ever started off 100% profitable, efficient, and smooth running

Medicine is a business. Your alternative is that physicians are social servants.

The Doctors wont be able to magically create time (Although some quantum physicists will argue they can hehe! - sorry, that’s another thing I’ve been studying about). What Doctors will be able to do though is magically bring in other doctors to the practice. It turns out every year people graduated from Medical school looking for jobs, my guess is that’s where they will start looking for help with the flood of the basic check ups coming in.

You don't get it. There will not be enough doctors to hire. Paying them less, which is what this Bill proposes through a government plan that "cuts costs" through underpayment will widen the gap between how many physicians we need vs. what we have.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-03-02-doctor-shortage_x.htm
http://www.managedcaremag.com/archives/0706/0706.shortage.html
http://www.newmajority.com/the-coming-doctor-shortage
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/17/eveningnews/main1726479.shtml
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/health/policy/27care.html
http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2009/apr/15/medical-practices-experimenting-new-technology-tec/
http://www.thedailyjournal.com/article/20090831/LIFESTYLE/908310302
http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2009/04/obama_administration_concerned.html
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/jan-june09/doctors_01-06.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/21/AR2007072100432.html

Characteristic of. Everyday I try to eat some vegetables, doesn’t make me a Vegetarian.

Unbelievable.

I'm done with this thread. I'll come back when someone can actually argue their points with logic and reason.

[importpower99]

Bastid now you know How I felt in the other thread!
But here is an article explaning you doctor shortgage, and unlike your sources they are not from republicican newspaper using there scare tactics.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/education-careers/graduate-medical-education/question-of-month/need-more-physicians.shtml

Straight from the horse's mouth, American Medical Association!

Key points, for those of you to lazy to read:
- IT's not quantity, it's quality.
- RN's are underrated (more then you think)
- More specialized doctors won't do anything
- About 50% of all doctors, got there certifications out of the country
- The schools only allow a certain number of graduates
- With that, it is harder for individuals to become doctors


And bastid if it makes you feel better, yes you are right, there will be a shortgage. However it is easy to overcome, and cheaper then you think.

[OutlawzPrez]

Doctor & nurse shortages + socialized healthcare= Long waits & over crowded hospitals.

We need to take baby steps. Lets invest in building what we already have. If the US were a company, the CEO would of been fired already. There isn't a single government agency or division that runs efficiently. Do we really want an organization that developed the U.S. Tax Code handling something as complex as health care? But then again, they set their own rules. And we don't need a shove down our throat plan that alot of repubs & dems didn't even entirely read.

I think we all can agree that we need to reform the current system.

But alot of us disagree that it should be gov't run & tax payer funded.

[Proven]

Please point me to specific clauses where the Bill increase the quality and delivery of medicine.

I said quality of the system.


Kaiser is huge and one of the most respected medical organizations in the world. Their studies are not half-witted.

Respected by who? other people againts the Bill? Are they the most respected survey builders? or medical Org.

How do you hire doctors when there won't be enough doctors to hire? PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING INTO MEDICINE!!! There will be a 50,000 physician shortage by 2016 in primary care alone (some say upward of 200,000 by 2020). More and more people do not want to be doctors in America anymore. Our largest demographic of new physicians is coming from overseas (primarily India).

To be fair the cost of attending Medical school is rising! People still want to be doctors but can’t afford it. Doctors are coming from overseas were the education is much cheaper, some are even leaving the country to get the schooling. I would imagine this plays a large part in why we are seeing less people interested in Medicine. Regardless, you are right, there is a shortage from what I’ve researched. If this bill passes a lot of other things like cost of education will need to be looked at to help things run more smoothly.



[QUOTE=Proven;1492866]The bill isn’t just trying to get 45 million people to storm doctor’s offices without proposing a way to make the system more efficient. Ways to make the system more efficient are in the bill./quote]

Name one.

Electronic records.

You don't get it. There will not be enough doctors to hire. Paying them less, which is what this Bill proposes through a government plan that "cuts costs" through underpayment will widen the gap between how many physicians we need vs. what we have.

I'm done with this thread. I'll come back when someone can actually argue their points with logic and reason.

Now you know why I left before. We just don't see eye to eye. Hopefully the people that are actually working on getting this bill passed are currently working on things to make it better. And hopefully the people against this bill aren’t trying to just keep everything the same.

[bastid]

I lied. Trying to get the last word :-p

I said quality of the system.

I stand corrected. Please point to specific clauses that improve the "quality of the system."

Respected by who? other people againts the Bill? Are they the most respected survey builders? or medical Org.

http://www.kff.org/about/index2.cfm

"A leader in health policy and communications, the Kaiser Family Foundation is a non-profit, private operating foundation focusing on the major health care issues facing the U.S., as well as the U.S. role in global health policy. Unlike grant-making foundations, Kaiser develops and runs its own research and communications programs, sometimes in partnership with other non-profit research organizations or major media companies.

We serve as a non-partisan source of facts, information, and analysis for policymakers, the media, the health care community, and the public. Our product is information, always provided free of charge – from the most sophisticated policy research, to basic facts and numbers, to information young people can use to improve their health or elderly people can use to understand their Medicare benefits."

To be fair the cost of attending Medical school is rising! People still want to be doctors but can’t afford it. Doctors are coming from overseas were the education is much cheaper, some are even leaving the country to get the schooling. I would imagine this plays a large part in why we are seeing less people interested in Medicine. Regardless, you are right, there is a shortage from what I’ve researched. If this bill passes a lot of other things like cost of education will need to be looked at to help things run more smoothly.

So is the cost of law school, but more people are going into law than are going into medicine. People are still going to medical school, but much less want to be doctors today than ever before, and cost of medical school is a small factor.

I tried googling a number of things: "Cost of medical school rising," "costs prevent medical enrollment" yielded exactly ZERO articles. Can you find any? Your statement "I would imagine" isn't exactly sound factual basis for your point, unless you can find articles or information that supports it.

If the bill passed and costs of education are not brought down (which the government can't do unless they take over education as well), it would need to be partially subsidized by government through additional federal scholarship - IE more spending and potentially more taxes.

Now you know why I left before. We just don't see eye to eye. Hopefully the people that are actually working on getting this bill passed are currently working on things to make it better. And hopefully the people against this bill aren’t trying to just keep everything the same.

We agree here. Changes definitely need to be made. But again, back to my main point - we don't need a public option to reform healthcare into a more efficient, affordable, and available system.

OK, now I'm really done. Unless you reply again...

[ILLJIM69]

we don't need a public option to reform healthcare into a more efficient, affordable, and available system.


bingo!

[OutlawzPrez]

I have the perfect solution that will satisfy everybody:

Seems like about 50% of the people are for Gov't Healthcare and 50% against. Tax the 50% that are for it (They get what they want I.E. REALLY high taxes for a greater good) and leave the other 50% alone (They get what they want I.E. FREEDOM) O.K. we are still not finished yet because this would not insure everyone. Some of the Freedom 50 would not be insured because they simply stood by their ideals and did not want a handout. Some of the Tax'em 50 would not need insurance but they want to feel good. So we take these two groups and SWAP'EM. Problem Solved.

[poolmike]

From what Mr.O is belching out at me right now...I will be FORCED to pay for health insurance whether I want it or not. I don't know how we ever lived without him.

[importpower99]

From what Mr.O is belching out at me right now...I will be FORCED to pay for health insurance whether I want it or not. I don't know how we ever lived without him.

You have employees?

[poolmike]

You have employees?

I am an employee, so is my wife.

[nrgotenk]

lol...

[OutlawzPrez]

So Obama just announced that "every American HAS to purchase helath insurance". Well guess what Mr Obama, I don't HAVE to do anything (Or I'll be fined instead anyway). There were some good points he made & some false information aswell. I'll point out what he lied about.

1. Obama said that this was the worst economy sice the great depression. FALSE! It was the worst economy since the Jimmy Carter era.

2. Obama also said that you can keep your insurance & the gov't will stay out of it. FALSE! In the bill it says that the gov't will determine whether or not yor current health insurance is acceptable for you. If not then you will be forced to go on the gov't plan or pay a yearly fine. Also there will be taxes on certain insurance polices as stated in the bill.

[poolmike]

It's all going to be ok. I'm a democrat now.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5njyzcqeOo

[OutlawzPrez]

Where are you importpower99?! lol I'm finally posting on the correct thread.

[importpower99]

Didn't Obama say that they are taking this back to the drawing board?
What made the Jimmy carter era worst then the the great depression?
Why would Obama look at your insurance company if you have no need to appy to it because you have insurance? So there would be no reason for them to review your current policy.

[importpower99]

What don't they create an option to sell insurance across state lines?

[importpower99]

I like how the republican for louisiana said he knows about how bad the Health care system is because he used to be a heart surgeon. But has done nothing about it?

[OutlawzPrez]

Didn't Obama say that they are taking this back to the drawing board?
Yes & I hope he fixes these problems in the current bill.

What made the Jimmy carter era worst then the the great depression?
I didn't say that. I said that this was the worst economy since the jimmy Carter era. NOT the worst economy since the great depression. The JC era was worse then the recession that were in now.

Why would Obama look at your insurance company if you have no need to appy to it because you have insurance? So there would be no reason for them to review your current policy.
IDK why, but its in the bill.


We all can agree that we need reform. I want everyone to be able to obtain health insurance, I'm not against that at all. But I am against alot of which is in this 1017 page bill & it being run by the gov't.

[OutlawzPrez]

What don't they create an option to sell insurance across state lines?

Agreed. It should be across state lines.

[poolmike]

I like how the republican for louisiana said he knows about how bad the Health care system is because he used to be a heart surgeon. But has done nothing about it?

What have you done for reform? you want it, right? The American people can do a much more efficient job by leaving the government out of reform. Why must you always look for a politician to solve your problem?

[importpower99]

We all can agree that we need reform. I want everyone to be able to obtain health insurance, I'm not against that at all. But I am against alot of which is in this 1017 page bill & it being run by the gov't.

Well my biggest concerns are cost, health care for illegals, and not a free ride for degenerates.

I just don't like lies being spread, and Obama said he would call those people out from now on.

And I like how everyone agrees, that something needs to be done, but yet we do nothing.

Obama also said that it's not fair that politicans have superior healthcare and refuse to do anything for the people that vote for them.

And they don't do anything because then they woulnd't be able to get there kickbacks, from drug and insurance companies.

[importpower99]

What have you done for reform? you want it, right? The American people can do a much more efficient job by leaving the government out of reform. Why must you always look for a politician to solve your problem?

I have done nothing but bitched and complained.
And since I vote for politician's to represent me, they should do something...right? Isn't that the primary focus of there occupation?

[OutlawzPrez]

Maybe we should have a TST event to help people who "really" can't afford healthcare & need it.

[Z31Fanatic]

Maybe we should have a TST event to help people who "really" can't afford healthcare & need it.
You know these Obama lovers will puss out and would never donate a penny for that cause because they're all talk :lol:

[OutlawzPrez]

you know these obama lovers will puss out and would never donate a penny for that cause because they're all talk :lol:

lulz :rofl:

[poolmike]

I have done nothing but bitched and complained.
And since I vote for politician's to represent me, they should do something...right? Isn't that the primary focus of there occupation?

The roll of government is to remain small. Folks like yourself, liberal or conservative, screw up the works with your agendas.

[evomike]

Ok here is my gripe it's not that I can't afford health care I can't get it, I am self employed got docked around by insurance for a knee injury and need surgery. Now when I try to get it I can because of a pre existing condition, and if I get it they won't treat my knee it's kinda tucked up can you people really look at situations like this and say that healthcare doesn't need some sort of reform?

[importpower99]

Ok here is my gripe it's not that I can't afford health care I can't get it, I am self employed got docked around by insurance for a knee injury and need surgery. Now when I try to get it I can because of a pre existing condition, and if I get it they won't treat my knee it's kinda tucked up can you people really look at situations like this and say that healthcare doesn't need some sort of reform?

According to republicans you don't exist...

[poolmike]

Ok here is my gripe it's not that I can't afford health care I can't get it, I am self employed got docked around by insurance for a knee injury and need surgery. Now when I try to get it I can because of a pre existing condition, and if I get it they won't treat my knee it's kinda tucked up can you people really look at situations like this and say that healthcare doesn't need some sort of reform?

and yet you are probably still looking to pay one of these criminal companies. If you want to reform the situation, stop begging them to take your money! STARVE THEM! It will work. They are in business to make money. You are a risk. If I owned a health insurance company, I would charge you more money.

Instead, everyone sits on their azz and begs the gov't to take over their lives.

[importpower99]

The roll of government is to remain small. Folks like yourself, liberal or conservative, screw up the works with your agendas.

A small gov't would just be another 8 years of the prior adminstration:
more benie madoffs
more corporations avoiding taxes
more hedge fund managers destroying american companies
more hedge fund managers destroying american households
another mortgage crisis
another credit crisis
and bigger gap between the middle class and the wealthy
more fraud
more jobs going overseas
the list could go on.

If it wasn't for the gov't this things would go noticed but nothing could be done about it.

The problem is, this country is filled with chimpanzes who make a living capitalizing off the middle class, when the middle class run this MUTHA!!!

[evomike]

No after I heard this I stopped trying, I won't pay if it won't help me I'm not begging to get insurance at all.

[importpower99]

and yet you are probably still looking to pay one of these criminal companies. If you want to reform the situation, stop begging them to take your money! STARVE THEM! It will work. They are in business to make money. You are a risk. If I owned a health insurance company, I would charge you more money.

Instead, everyone sits on their azz and begs the gov't to take over their lives.

Do you know how much surgery cost? Maybe he doesn't have 30k to get his or her knee's fixed. It it was affordable it would be different.

Stave them! Starve them you say. It's just not do-able. Thats like saying boycott oil companies by not buying gas for your vehicle when you commute two hours to work.

You can't stop a corporation.
S**T, they run the gov't!

[importpower99]

No after I heard this I stopped trying, I won't pay if it won't help me I'm not begging to get insurance at all.

Well I wouldn't stop looking for options. Even if they sign a bill tomorrow, it will still take years to implement it.

You could just hack your lower leg off with a pocket knife, then your knee will no longer bother you:mrgreen:

[evomike]

Yeah there are some things I can do I'm just notbsure what I'm gonna do yet

[poolmike]

A small gov't would just be another 8 years of the prior adminstration:
more benie madoffs
more corporations avoiding taxes
more hedge fund managers destroying american companies
more hedge fund managers destroying american households
another mortgage crisis
another credit crisis
and bigger gap between the middle class and the wealthy
more fraud
more jobs going overseas
the list could go on.

If it wasn't for the gov't this things would go noticed but nothing could be done about it.

The problem is, this country is filled with chimpanzes who make a living capitalizing off the middle class, when the middle class run this MUTHA!!!

So exactly where are the American citizens going to learn from previous mistakes and be held accountable???? What you just stated is that the gov't is screwed up, let them take my health too. Yes, you did.


Do you know how much surgery cost? Maybe he doesn't have 30k to get his or her knee's fixed. It it was affordable it would be different.

Stave them! Starve them you say. It's just not do-able. Thats like saying boycott oil companies by not buying gas for your vehicle when you commute two hours to work.

You can't stop a corporation.
S**T, they run the gov't!

What you just stated is that if you pay an insurance company, they will pay for your surgery. Why do we need reform? You make no sense. Like Obama stated tonight...'let's fix something that already works'.:roll:

Starving them would work, if folks like yourself weren't to scared and brainwashed to go without insurance.

[ILLJIM69]

Maybe we should have a TST event to help people who "really" can't afford healthcare & need it.

Like what? Hand out job applications?

[ndubz]

OWNED all u bitches!!!!!!!! Now sit down shut up, and take ur healthcare from our fine president after kissing his shoes.

[ndubz]

Like what? Hand out job applications?

Nah bro dont do that, theres deff more jobs for u out there when u get back. this economy is bad, but not that bad. :mrgreen:

[importpower99]

So exactly where are the American citizens going to learn from previous mistakes and be held accountable???? What you just stated is that the gov't is screwed up, let them take my health too. Yes, you did.




What you just stated is that if you pay an insurance company, they will pay for your surgery. Why do we need reform? You make no sense. Like Obama stated tonight...'let's fix something that already works'.:roll:

Starving them would work, if folks like yourself weren't to scared and brainwashed to go without insurance.

No I proved that lack of gov't causes those situations to happen. The last 8 years preached "Free Market", and it nearly crippled us and the world. So there is your proof. Until we get rid of the americans who choose to take advantage of other americans and then hide behind laws and politicans, we have to choice but to have the gov't breathing down our necks.

The problem with insurance is that even though you pay them, they can still drop you at any time. So if you need to have a three step surgery done, and they drop you after the first one, you are screwed. And there is nothing you can do.

So it doesn't work, it's funny how after that speech, now all republicans are saying that health care reform is needed (but in different forms).

[ILLJIM69]

OWNED all u bitches!!!!!!!! Now sit down shut up, and take ur healthcare from our fine president after kissing his shoes.

What? :bigeek:

Who did you own? Link?

Nah bro dont do that, theres deff more jobs for u out there when u get back. this economy is bad, but not that bad. :mrgreen:

I am not worried about jobs that either offer health care insurance or pay me enough so that I can purchase it. If I weren't staying in the military, I would be able to find a way to make it through life in other ways. I don't require handouts nor do I need to have my hand held through life.

[ILLJIM69]

No I proved that lack of gov't causes those situations to happen. The last 8 years preached "Free Market", and it nearly crippled us and the world. So there is your proof. Until we get rid of the americans who choose to take advantage of other americans and then hide behind laws and politicans, we have to choice but to have the gov't breathing down our necks.

The problem with insurance is that even though you pay them, they can still drop you at any time. So if you need to have a three step surgery done, and they drop you after the first one, you are screwed. And there is nothing you can do.

So it doesn't work, it's funny how after that speech, now all republicans are saying that health care reform is needed (but in different forms).

First of all, the economic problems we are facing today started a lot further back than eight years ago. So don't do the typical political thing and just blame who was in office last.

And I agree with you in terms of insurance. I am all for some sort of reform. There are just two things I don't like. One being that I don't like the prospect of the government running their own health care system because there will be a ton of bias when it comes time for new regulation, rules and legislation. The second thing is, if they are to do a public option, where will they get the money? I certainly shouldn't have to pay more taxes (nor should anyone else) for a service like that when I won't be using it. Anyone that thinks the average man's taxes won't see a hike due to public option is a moron.

[poolmike]

No I proved that lack of gov't causes those situations to happen. The last 8 years preached "Free Market", and it nearly crippled us and the world. So there is your proof. Until we get rid of the americans who choose to take advantage of other americans and then hide behind laws and politicans, we have to choice but to have the gov't breathing down our necks.

The problem with insurance is that even though you pay them, they can still drop you at any time. So if you need to have a three step surgery done, and they drop you after the first one, you are screwed. And there is nothing you can do.

So it doesn't work, it's funny how after that speech, now all republicans are saying that health care reform is needed (but in different forms).


No personal responsibility is the problem. Every time YOU step out of your front door, YOU probably do something to support one of these large 'evil' corporations in some way, shape, or form. Bought a new car? YOU supported a large evil corporation. Shopped at a grocery store? Gotta eat, right? YOU supported a large evil corporation. Unless you buy local goods from mom and pop stores, who only sell local products, and you pay for them with green cash money, you are part of the problem that you create.

Going with your thought process once again.....and let's push aside whatever team you are on for one minute here.... you said the gov't (under G.W. Bush) let all of this crap happen. Corporations (those evil groups that YOU WILLINGLY THROW MONEY AT) were allowed to run wild and do whatever they wanted to, dodging the IRS, etc. Did you call your representatives out on this matter? Or did you just keep spending money with those evil-doing corporations that you hate so much? So, the gov't. teamed up with the evil corporations, is to blame for the malfunctions of the whole planet, but you are totally ok with them taking over your health. YOU MAKE NO SENSE AT ALL.

[OutlawzPrez]

Ok here is my gripe it's not that I can't afford health care I can't get it, I am self employed got docked around by insurance for a knee injury and need surgery. Now when I try to get it I can because of a pre existing condition, and if I get it they won't treat my knee it's kinda tucked up can you people really look at situations like this and say that healthcare doesn't need some sort of reform?

You my friend are wrong. EVERYONE WANTS HEALTHCARE REFORM.

1. We don't like alot of which is written in the bill (Although there are some good things). Its not that we don't want everyone to be able to have access to healhcare stupid. Its whats in the bill, plain & simple.

2. We don't want the gov't taking control over 1/6 of our economy.

[poolmike]

You my friend are wrong. EVERYONE WANTS HEALTHCARE REFORM.

1. We don't like alot of which is written in the bill (Although there are some good things). Its not that we don't want everyone to be able to have access to healhcare stupid. Its whats in the bill, plain & simple.

2. We don't want the gov't taking control over 1/6 of our economy.



I don't want healthcare reform, especially if the government is involved.

[Proven]

You my friend are wrong. EVERYONE WANTS HEALTHCARE REFORM.

1. We don't like alot of which is written in the bill (Although there are some good things). Its not that we don't want everyone to be able to have access to healhcare stupid. Its whats in the bill, plain & simple.

2. We don't want the gov't taking control over 1/6 of our economy.

Not everyone wants reform. I imagine insurance Companies, Hospitals, stockholders, and the republicans and media that get paid by them are against it all together.

How do you propose reform happen? Ask the insurance Companies nicely to lower their rates? Ask Hospitals to lower their fee's, maybe say pretty please? The second that happens you'll post up "Obama wants to control your Business". The only way to straighten out the system is to compete with it. The government is the only one who has the power/money to do so and that’s what needs to happen.

Write up a proposal for reform and send it to Obama (I’m sure he’ll be amazed at how much more educated you are on the matter over him). Be sure to post a copy of it here too. How long do you think you’ll need? Till then share some of your ideas.

[OutlawzPrez]

I don't want healthcare reform, especially if the government is involved.

I don't want the gov't involved. But we all know that we need to fix & improve the current system.

[OutlawzPrez]

Not everyone wants reform. I imagine insurance Companies, Hospitals, stockholders, and the republicans and media that get paid by them are against it all together.

How do you propose reform happen? Ask the insurance Companies nicely to lower their rates? Ask Hospitals to lower their fee's, maybe say pretty please? The second that happens you'll post up "Obama wants to control your Business". The only way to straighten out the system is to compete with it. The government is the only one who has the power/money to do so and that’s what needs to happen.

Write up a proposal for reform and send it to Obama
(I’m sure he’ll be amazed at how much more educated you are on the matter over him). Be sure to post a copy of it here too. How long do you think you’ll need? Till then share some of your ideas.

The Obama Admin took over GM, you idiot... Do your research. They now want to take over 1/6th of our economy.

[Z31Fanatic]

Has anyone else noticed from last night's speech how now they are saying that it's 30 million uninsured americans. Where did the other 20 million go? Did the 50 million number they claimed before include illegal immigrants?

Every day they come up with different numbers and different strategies hoping people will buy it.

http://images.craigslist.org/3k83m73obZZZZZZZZZ98lb269cbddccc11507.jpg

[OutlawzPrez]

Has anyone else noticed from last night's speech how now they are saying that it's 30 million uninsured americans. Where did the other 20 million go? Did the 50 million number they claimed before include illegal immigrants?

Every day they come up with different numbers and different strategies hoping people will buy it.

http://images.craigslist.org/3k83m73obZZZZZZZZZ98lb269cbddccc11507.jpg

Yes I heard that last night too. So how are they going to pay for this & keep a balanced budget? They couldn't even budget the cash for clunkers plan, so why in the world do people think that the gov't will run this effeciently?!

[Z31Fanatic]

Also, he said that illegal immigrants won't be covered under the plan but why did the house dems vote against the amendment that it would prevent them from getting coverage? :roll:

[OutlawzPrez]

Also, he said that illegal immigrants won't be covered under the plan but why did the house dems vote against the amendment that it would prevent them from getting coverage? :roll:

http://blog.lib.umn.edu/isss/isss/question-mark1a.jpg

[Proven]

The Obama Admin took over GM, you idiot... Do your research. They now want to take over 1/6th of our economy.

GM would be shut down right now if it wasn't for govenment. Our Heathcare system is heading in the same direction. Why Obama wants to stop that from happening is beyond me, how evil is he :bigeek: 1/6 of our economy would be gone soon if it wasn't for what Obama is doing, Learn this.

How's your healthcare reform bill coming along? Still going to the bar this weekend to support your cause?

Also no need for the "idiot" comment. keep this sh** clean.

[OutlawzPrez]

GM would be shut down right now if it wasn't for govenment. Our Heathcare system is heading in the same direction. Why Obama wants to stop that from happening is beyond me, how evil is he :bigeek: 1/6 of our economy would be gone soon if it wasn't for what Obama is doing, Learn this.

How's your healthcare reform bill coming along? Still going to the bar this weekend to support your cause?

Also no need for the "idiot" comment. keep this sh** clean.

I didn't mean to offend you. Sorry man, sometimes we all get carried away LULZ!

Its a sports bar, sort of like TGI Fridays. And YES I am still going. I can't make it to DC, so I'm attending this event to watch it & discuss politics with like minded people.

[OutlawzPrez]

GM would be shut down right now if it wasn't for govenment. Our Heathcare system is heading in the same direction. Why Obama wants to stop that from happening is beyond me, how evil is he :bigeek: 1/6 of our economy would be gone soon if it wasn't for what Obama is doing, Learn this.

How's your healthcare reform bill coming along? Still going to the bar this weekend to support your cause?

Also no need for the "idiot" comment. keep this sh** clean.

So if you owned a company & it wasn't doing so good, would you want the gov't to come in & take it over? Answer a simple YES/NO. That is unconstitutional! They need to stay out of the free market.

[Proven]

So if you owned a company & it wasn't doing so good, would you want the gov't to come in & take it over? Answer a simple YES/NO. That is unconstitutional! They need to stay out of the free market.

YES, If it meant my Company would stay in Business and I would continue to employ 1000’s of Americans id have no prob. with it. GM's other option was to shut down, I’m pretty sure they are thankful for what the gov did.

I’m not a huge fan of the free market when it allows greed and corruption just for profit. I’m def. not a fan of “make profit by any means necessary” by stepping on toes and underpaying hard workers which the free market also allows. If someone (anyone) wants to step in to correct things I’m all for it, Especially if it helps save this economy and health of the nation.

I get heated also, don’t worry about it. I think we both honestly want the same thing. The only difference is we want it to happen in different ways.

[poolmike]

YES, If it meant my Company would stay in Business and I would continue to employ 1000’s of Americans id have no prob. with it. GM's other option was to shut down, I’m pretty sure they are thankful for what the gov did.

I’m not a huge fan of the free market when it allows greed and corruption just for profit. I’m def. not a fan of “make profit by any means necessary” by stepping on toes and underpaying hard workers which the free market also allows. If someone (anyone) wants to step in to correct things I’m all for it, Especially if it helps save this economy and health of the nation.

I get heated also, don’t worry about it. I think we both honestly want the same thing. The only difference is we want it to happen in different ways.


This is just wrong in so many ways...If an employee is 'underpayed', WHOSE FAULT IS IT?? We are still in a country where you can quit that 'crap job' and go somewhere that is willing to pay your worth, or better yet...put everything you have on the line and be the boss because that is easy:roll:

GM and Chrysler produce supplies for the military. They have a tight grip on our balls. Every time they screw up, our tax dollars go to the rescue. They will never change their ways. Ford does not supply the military with much of anything, hence the reason they don't get much help. Quick....refresh my memory...which of these three companies got their act together???? No big surprise there. No coincidence that Ford isn't as union heavy as the other two. So, if you were the owner of GM, you sir would be the corrupt, greedy SOB that you hate so much, at the expense of every citizens tax dollar.

Also, if you are working for a paycheck, and wanting more of a paycheck....isn't that the greed that you hate so much?

[importpower99]

So if you owned a company & it wasn't doing so good, would you want the gov't to come in & take it over? Answer a simple YES/NO. That is unconstitutional! They need to stay out of the free market.

GM and AIG both asked for help. THe govt didn't just march in and took over. It is not unconstitutional, for a gov't invest money into a company and become a primary shareholder, with th eright permission. Although I would turn the other check if they decided to do something about Walmart.

[importpower99]

This is just wrong in so many ways...If an employee is 'underpayed', WHOSE FAULT IS IT?? We are still in a country where you can quit that 'crap job' and go somewhere that is willing to pay your worth, or better yet...put everything you have on the line and be the boss because that is easy:roll:

GM and Chrysler produce supplies for the military. They have a tight grip on our balls. Every time they screw up, our tax dollars go to the rescue. They will never change their ways. Ford does not supply the military with much of anything, hence the reason they don't get much help. Quick....refresh my memory...which of these three companies got their act together???? No big surprise there. No coincidence that Ford isn't as union heavy as the other two. So, if you were the owner of GM, you sir would be the corrupt, greedy SOB that you hate so much, at the expense of every citizens tax dollar.

Also, if you are working for a paycheck, and wanting more of a paycheck....isn't that the greed that you hate so much?

With companies constantly shipping jobs overseas, it is harder to get a decent job, so you can live a decent life. Sure if you want to make $7.00 hr you can, will it feed your family...NO!
The reason why ford isn't as "union heavy" GM and chrysler is because they laid off 30,000 people some 3 years ago.
And GM is publicly traded, there is no sole owner.

[importpower99]

No personal responsibility is the problem. Every time YOU step out of your front door, YOU probably do something to support one of these large 'evil' corporations in some way, shape, or form. Bought a new car? YOU supported a large evil corporation. Shopped at a grocery store? Gotta eat, right? YOU supported a large evil corporation. Unless you buy local goods from mom and pop stores, who only sell local products, and you pay for them with green cash money, you are part of the problem that you create.

Going with your thought process once again.....and let's push aside whatever team you are on for one minute here.... you said the gov't (under G.W. Bush) let all of this crap happen. Corporations (those evil groups that YOU WILLINGLY THROW MONEY AT) were allowed to run wild and do whatever they wanted to, dodging the IRS, etc. Did you call your representatives out on this matter? Or did you just keep spending money with those evil-doing corporations that you hate so much? So, the gov't. teamed up with the evil corporations, is to blame for the malfunctions of the whole planet, but you are totally ok with them taking over your health. YOU MAKE NO SENSE AT ALL.

I'm not talking about corporations exisiting, I'm talking about the s**t they get away with, and how politicans turn the other cheek for a little bit of dough.
I didn't get involved in politics until a year and a half ago. So no I didn't do anything, I am finding out now.
And who said anything about the gov't taking over healthcare? That sounds like the headlines of a fox news program. If they want to run a healthcare option for a selct group of individuals, go ahead. They do it now.

[importpower99]

Also, he said that illegal immigrants won't be covered under the plan but why did the house dems vote against the amendment that it would prevent them from getting coverage? :roll:

Funny I heard that on fox also..... BUt if you go to the website, it's different.

[ILLJIM69]

With companies constantly shipping jobs overseas, it is harder to get a decent job, so you can live a decent life. Sure if you want to make $7.00 hr you can, will it feed your family...NO!


And perhaps this should fuel a new age of common sense for people. Perhaps now people will stop and think and plan out their lives, as opposed to the normal "I just graduated high school (or college) and have had my job for a year, time to pop out kids without thinking to the future" attitude. People today want instant gratification and rewards and generally put very little thought into what could happen to them. Young people should set themselves up for success. Get a good job with good security, buy a house (provided their finances are in order to do so), live life a little bit, have money in savings.......then have a kid when you can afford all your living expenses with one person in the family working. Too often two working people get together and splurge on things and think that their income is sufficient. Then the baby comes and there are tons of expenses entailed in that, plus the odds are that mom will have to be out of work, at least for a little while. So now that lifestyle they were used to comes to a halt, their income is slashed and they have new bills they didn't have before. People don't think things through.

So, if the only jobs out there aren't paying well, they will stop and say "we have to wait before we have kids, we just can't afford it". There is nothing promised or afforded to us that says we have the right to a family or childred or a nice house and cars, only the right to pursue that life for ourselves. Some will get that life, some won't and people just need to accept that.

/rant

[poolmike]

With companies constantly shipping jobs overseas, it is harder to get a decent job, so you can live a decent life. Sure if you want to make $7.00 hr you can, will it feed your family...NO!
The reason why ford isn't as "union heavy" GM and chrysler is because they laid off 30,000 people some 3 years ago.
And GM is publicly traded, there is no sole owner.

OK, I agree...but my point is that the American people, like Mr.Proven like to blame our gov't and employers for these situations, and then turn around and look to these same people to solve problems. The government can't do ANYTHING efficiently and within budget, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK HEALTHCARE WILL BE DIFFERENT???


I'm not talking about corporations exisiting, I'm talking about the s**t they get away with, and how politicans turn the other cheek for a little bit of dough.
I didn't get involved in politics until a year and a half ago. So no I didn't do anything, I am finding out now.
And who said anything about the gov't taking over healthcare? That sounds like the headlines of a fox news program. If they want to run a healthcare option for a selct group of individuals, go ahead. They do it now.

Once again, we have a new leader and things have not changed. The companies that get overlooked at tax time are different, but the problem still exists.

What makes you think a government option for healthcare will be different????

[OutlawzPrez]

http://www.bannerfans.com/banners/2082_191463.jpg

[importpower99]

http://www.bannerfans.com/banners/2082_191463.jpg

Thats awesome

[importpower99]

OK, I agree...but my point is that the American people, like Mr.Proven like to blame our gov't and employers for these situations, and then turn around and look to these same people to solve problems. The government can't do ANYTHING efficiently and within budget, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK HEALTHCARE WILL BE DIFFERENT???




Once again, we have a new leader and things have not changed. The companies that get overlooked at tax time are different, but the problem still exists.

What makes you think a government option for healthcare will be different????

I just think the american dream is long gone, and will never return.

[OutlawzPrez]

Thats awesome
Haha thanks man!

I just think the american dream is long gone, and will never return.

The American dream is here & always will be just as long as free markets remain & we stand up for our constitutional rights. Because "we the people' are the gov't.

Here's the problem....

-Alot of liberals think that this country was "once great" & want to make it better.

-Alot of Conservatives think that this country is "still great" & want to make it better.

[CleanNeon98]

And perhaps this should fuel a new age of common sense for people. Perhaps now people will stop and think and plan out their lives, as opposed to the normal "I just graduated high school (or college) and have had my job for a year, time to pop out kids without thinking to the future" attitude. People today want instant gratification and rewards and generally put very little thought into what could happen to them. Young people should set themselves up for success. Get a good job with good security, buy a house (provided their finances are in order to do so), live life a little bit, have money in savings.......then have a kid when you can afford all your living expenses with one person in the family working. Too often two working people get together and splurge on things and think that their income is sufficient. Then the baby comes and there are tons of expenses entailed in that, plus the odds are that mom will have to be out of work, at least for a little while. So now that lifestyle they were used to comes to a halt, their income is slashed and they have new bills they didn't have before. People don't think things through.

So, if the only jobs out there aren't paying well, they will stop and say "we have to wait before we have kids, we just can't afford it". There is nothing promised or afforded to us that says we have the right to a family or childred or a nice house and cars, only the right to pursue that life for ourselves. Some will get that life, some won't and people just need to accept that.

/rant
Americans as a whole aren't ready for that. Why take responsibility for your own actions when you can just run to the government and get help later?

[Z31Fanatic]

Funny I heard that on fox also..... BUt if you go to the website, it's different.
What website?

[Proven]

OK, I agree...but my point is that the American people, like Mr.Proven like to blame our gov't and employers for these situations, and then turn around and look to these same people to solve problems. The government can't do ANYTHING efficiently and within budget, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK HEALTHCARE WILL BE DIFFERENT???




Once again, we have a new leader and things have not changed. The companies that get overlooked at tax time are different, but the problem still exists.

What makes you think a government option for healthcare will be different????


I do blame the government for allowing greedy business practices in the past. I also blame the CEO that has a million dollar paycheck and the next highest paid employee makes 50k. Our economy would be so dam strong if it wasn’t for that 5% (or whatever the % is) keeping all the money for themselves. We have the richest country in the world yet 5% controls all the money. More people would have more money to spend, get their pools serviced, be able to buy stuff, get health coverage, etc. all strengthening the economy.

“Spread the wealth” I know got twisted into taking money from others but to me it means pay others what they deserve based on business profit not what the owner can get away with handing down based on greed. (Not all business owners are greedy)

Of course small business cant pay big wages, I don’t blame them, I respect them for their balls to even start something and wish I would do the same. I don’t think Obama is after crippling them in any sense.

CHANGE- Obama has tried nothing but change since he started. Nothing has happen yet because (surprise surprise) big business and the republicans on their payroll are doing everything in their power to stop him.

[ILLJIM69]

I just think the american dream is long gone, and will never return.

Oh, it's still here. You know, house, car, spouse, 2.5 kids, a dog, family vacations.........problem is, people lately don't feel the need to work for it and they have no patience for it.

"You mean putting everything in life on credit at the age of 21 is a bad idea?"

People these days....... :roll:

[poolmike]

I do blame the government for allowing greedy business practices in the past. I also blame the CEO that has a million dollar paycheck and the next highest paid employee makes 50k. Our economy would be so dam strong if it wasn’t for that 5% (or whatever the % is) keeping all the money for themselves. We have the richest country in the world yet 5% controls all the money. More people would have more money to spend, get their pools serviced, be able to buy stuff, get health coverage, etc. all strengthening the economy.

“Spread the wealth” I know got twisted into taking money from others but to me it means pay others what they deserve based on business profit not what the owner can get away with handing down based on greed. (Not all business owners are greedy)

Of course small business cant pay big wages, I don’t blame them, I respect them for their balls to even start something and wish I would do the same. I don’t think Obama is after crippling them in any sense.

CHANGE- Obama has tried nothing but change since he started. Nothing has happen yet because (surprise surprise) big business and the republicans on their payroll are doing everything in their power to stop him.


If you aren't willing to take the big risk, you DO NOT deserve to make the big money. Most employees have no risk. NONE.

Obama is a change for sure, he took a poor economic policy and loaded it up with steroids. The American people are finally waking up to this crap and voicing their opposition.

[poolmike]

CHANGE- Obama has tried nothing but change since he started. Nothing has happen yet because (surprise surprise) big business and the republicans on their payroll are doing everything in their power to stop him.

One more thing about this...were you asleep during the bailouts? How is that a change?

[bastid]

I do blame the government for allowing greedy business practices in the past. I also blame the CEO that has a million dollar paycheck and the next highest paid employee makes 50k. Our economy would be so dam strong if it wasn’t for that 5% (or whatever the % is) keeping all the money for themselves. We have the richest country in the world yet 5% controls all the money. More people would have more money to spend, get their pools serviced, be able to buy stuff, get health coverage, etc. all strengthening the economy.

In a free market society, consumers of certain companies have the choice whether or not they shop somewhere based on employment and compensation practices. Since no one seems to be doing this, it's rather hypocritical of you to say you blame the CEO of companies you yourself support.

In America you have the freedom to keep your money for yourself. Taking from one to give to the other in exchange for NOTHING marginal on top of their current risk/responsibility will never be a good idea.

“Spread the wealth” I know got twisted into taking money from others but to me it means pay others what they deserve based on business profit not what the owner can get away with handing down based on greed. (Not all business owners are greedy)

What you describe is straight up socialism. You are suggesting that the solution is direct interference of the free market by government to impose salary caps and profit based wages.

Of course small business cant pay big wages, I don’t blame them, I respect them for their balls to even start something and wish I would do the same. I don’t think Obama is after crippling them in any sense.

Until the bill comes in on our deficit spending. You can't sweep trillions of dollars under the rug. At some point we're either going to have to wipe our debt - whether that means insane taxes for a long period of time, or war with those who we've sold ourselves to for so many years.

CHANGE- Obama has tried nothing but change since he started. Nothing has happen yet because (surprise surprise) big business and the republicans on their payroll are doing everything in their power to stop him.

"Do or do not, there is no try" - Yoda.

"I tried nothing but to have sex with Megan Fox" - That sounds really great, too. But the likelihood that will ever happen is pretty small. So what value is there in trying if you don't DO anything?

He can't DO anything because he hasn't given any thought to the likelihood of his change growing roots and actually being executed upon.

I thought of Obama the same way I thought of Kerry and Gore. Their plans sound great to the populace, "we'll spend more over here by cutting less over here, stop the Iraq war, provide healthcare to everyone, and not increase taxes on anyone earning less than $250,000" Yet none of them can answer the questions "How do you plan on doing it?" or "What are the specifics of this plan?"

Here are his plan's specifics to date.... How would you have voted if, prior to the election, Obama stated that within his first year in office, he would:

- Sign a $800B stimulus package without anyone reading it
- Increase the federal deficit to almost $10 TRILLION over 10 years
- Increase taxes on families or households above $250,000 (IE - Now the minimum threshold affects a lot more people)
- Increase troops in the Middle East
- Release Mr. Lockerbie bomber from Guantanamo
- Take over General Motors
- Audit and seize control from large banks
- etc.

[ITSTOCK]

Bastid, no offense, but I really don't think you get it.

There is a large population that WANTS the government to be in total control. They want equality for all. They don't care what it costs, or for what reason, or even the final result for that matter, it's just what they want. It's not for anything specific, again, it's just what they want. People like Proven WANT socialism and Marxism. EVERYTHING that Proven has stated in the numerous threads over the past year has said that he is all for socialism, yet he sits here and argues that is not what he wants (and people who think that are brainwashed Republicans). Just search through his posts, quote everything he says, and just shake your head.

It's sad that this is what our country has come to.


In a free market society, consumers of certain companies have the choice whether or not they shop somewhere based on employment and compensation practices. Since no one seems to be doing this, it's rather hypocritical of you to say you blame the CEO of companies you yourself support.

In America you have the freedom to keep your money for yourself. Taking from one to give to the other in exchange for NOTHING marginal on top of their current risk/responsibility will never be a good idea.



What you describe is straight up socialism. You are suggesting that the solution is direct interference of the free market by government to impose salary caps and profit based wages.



Until the bill comes in on our deficit spending. You can't sweep trillions of dollars under the rug. At some point we're either going to have to wipe our debt - whether that means insane taxes for a long period of time, or war with those who we've sold ourselves to for so many years.



"Do or do not, there is no try" - Yoda.

"I tried nothing but to have sex with Megan Fox" - That sounds really great, too. But the likelihood that will ever happen is pretty small. So what value is there in trying if you don't DO anything?

He can't DO anything because he hasn't given any thought to the likelihood of his change growing roots and actually being executed upon.

I thought of Obama the same way I thought of Kerry and Gore. Their plans sound great to the populace, "we'll spend more over here by cutting less over here, stop the Iraq war, provide healthcare to everyone, and not increase taxes on anyone earning less than $250,000" Yet none of them can answer the questions "How do you plan on doing it?" or "What are the specifics of this plan?"

Here are his plan's specifics to date.... How would you have voted if, prior to the election, Obama stated that within his first year in office, he would:

- Sign a $800B stimulus package without anyone reading it
- Increase the federal deficit to almost $10 TRILLION over 10 years
- Increase taxes on families or households above $250,000 (IE - Now the minimum threshold affects a lot more people)
- Increase troops in the Middle East
- Release Mr. Lockerbie bomber from Guantanamo
- Take over General Motors
- Audit and seize control from large banks
- etc.

[Proven]

Bastid, no offense, but I really don't think you get it.

There is a large population that WANTS the government to be in total control. (I just want the greed to be control) They want equality for all. (I always thought all men were created equal?) They don't care what it costs, (I don't) or for what reason, (The reason would be fair market and fair wages for everyone) or even the final result for that matter, (final result would be more people having more money meaning a stronger economy and a stronger voice of the american people because they would control the economy at this point) it's just what they want. (yup) It's not for anything specific, again, it's just what they want. People like Proven WANT socialism and Marxism. EVERYTHING that Proven has stated in the numerous threads over the past year has said that he is all for socialism, yet he sits here and argues that is not what he wants (and people who think that are brainwashed Republicans). Just search through his posts, quote everything he says, and just shake your head.

It's sad that this is what our country has come to.

(bold above is me responding)

It is sad what this Country has come to. Its come to poor people supporting big business and there practices that keep them poor. Its come to (as stated in your sig) gray areas in the constitution that are being abused for greed and "justice".

[Proven]

In a free market society, consumers of certain companies have the choice whether or not they shop somewhere based on employment and compensation practices. Since no one seems to be doing this, it's rather hypocritical of you to say you blame the CEO of companies you yourself support.
- etc.

Unfortunately we depend on big business as Americans. Can I buy a house cash? Can I buy a car cash? I get sick, could get hurt, so I need insurance because I cant pay cash on spot, Can't pay to have the car fixed if in an accident so, need insurance cause I cant pay cash to have it fixed. Every time I wipe my ass because I sh** I support big business. BIG BUSINESS already controls us and our economy. Most if not all of Americans have to buy from them. To say "just don't buy from them" is silly, its like saying don't breath the air if you think its polluted.

Do you want our economy to be stronger? How do you propose we make it stronger? Give big business tax breaks so they can bank? Or force these Companies to pay fair wages like they ethically should be? (ethically and logically, not pay the janitor 100k)

To me big business could get bigger by "spreading the wealth" (spend money to make money). If more people have more money to spend they will... (we know this for sure). This in turn gives money back to the "Big business".

I know I sound like a socialist and maybe I am.. Regardless in the times we are having I think Socialist PRACTICE is in order.

[ILLJIM69]

Unfortunately we depend on big business as Americans. Can I buy a house cash? Can I buy a car cash? I get sick, could get hurt, so I need insurance because I cant pay cash on spot, Can't pay to have the car fixed if in an accident so, need insurance cause I cant pay cash to have it fixed. Every time I wipe my ass because I sh** I support big business. BIG BUSINESS already controls us and our economy. Most if not all of Americans have to buy from them. To say "just don't buy from them" is silly, its like saying don't breath the air if you think its polluted.

Do you want our economy to be stronger? How do you propose we make it stronger? Give big business tax breaks so they can bank? Or force these Companies to pay fair wages like they ethically should be? (ethically and logically, not pay the janitor 100k)

To me big business could get bigger by "spreading the wealth" (spend money to make money). If more people have more money to spend they will... (we know this for sure). This in turn gives money back to the "Big business".

I know I sound like a socialist and maybe I am.. Regardless in the times we are having I think Socialist PRACTICE is in order.

Don't sweat it man, you don't sound like a Socialist at all, you sound like a freaking Communist.

Look Marx, what is this "fair" crap you keep talking about? People can work harder and move up the ladder of life. Don't say they can't because too many people have proven otherwise. I could probably make six figures doing the same thing I do now, but on the civilian sector. Guess what, I like where I am at right now, doing what I do and quite honestly. Anyone can start a business if they want to, but most people don't have the drive or motivation to do so. I can tell you that I am not that motivated. I just want to live my little life, have a good time in my little world with my family and maybe be lucky enough to leave some nice stuff to my kids. Other than that, I don't care and you should spend less time worrying about how "fair" life is and more time about making sure your little world is squared away.

BTW - stop being a Commie.

[importpower99]

=poolmike;1504391]If you aren't willing to take the big risk, you DO NOT deserve to make the big money. Most employees have no risk. NONE.


HA! Thats what hedge fund say to get there capital gains taxes. Too bad it's not true and not plausable.

[importpower99]

One more thing about this...were you asleep during the bailouts? How is that a change?

Where you asleep when it happened? TARP was the Bush admin. Remember they gave them money unconditionally, and then they couldn't track where it went?

[poolmike]

Where you asleep when it happened? TARP was the Bush admin. Remember they gave them money unconditionally, and then they couldn't track where it went?

Why are you making this a republican vs. democrat issue. It does not matter what side blows the freakin money. It is time to start kicking all of them out of office. If you were angry that Bush started TARP, why aren't you still angry now?

[Proven]

Don't sweat it man, you don't sound like a Socialist at all, you sound like a freaking Communist.

Look Marx, what is this "fair" crap you keep talking about? People can work harder and move up the ladder of life. Don't say they can't because too many people have proven otherwise. I could probably make six figures doing the same thing I do now, but on the civilian sector. Guess what, I like where I am at right now, doing what I do and quite honestly. Anyone can start a business if they want to, but most people don't have the drive or motivation to do so. I can tell you that I am not that motivated. I just want to live my little life, have a good time in my little world with my family and maybe be lucky enough to leave some nice stuff to my kids. Other than that, I don't care and you should spend less time worrying about how "fair" life is and more time about making sure your little world is squared away.

BTW - stop being a Commie.

I guess I'm a commie cause you said so. All's we need is Glenn Beck to confirm it and it will be true.

So how do we pull out of this economical mess we are in? What do you think should happen? And who should be in charge of executing it?

[OutlawzPrez]

Unfortunately we depend on big business as Americans. Can I buy a house cash? Can I buy a car cash? I get sick, could get hurt, so I need insurance because I cant pay cash on spot, Can't pay to have the car fixed if in an accident so, need insurance cause I cant pay cash to have it fixed. Every time I wipe my ass because I sh** I support big business. BIG BUSINESS already controls us and our economy. Most if not all of Americans have to buy from them. To say "just don't buy from them" is silly, its like saying don't breath the air if you think its polluted.

Do you want our economy to be stronger? How do you propose we make it stronger? Give big business tax breaks so they can bank? Or force these Companies to pay fair wages like they ethically should be? (ethically and logically, not pay the janitor 100k)

To me big business could get bigger by "spreading the wealth" (spend money to make money). If more people have more money to spend they will... (we know this for sure). This in turn gives money back to the "Big business".

I know I sound like a socialist and maybe I am.. Regardless in the times we are having I think Socialist PRACTICE is in order.

LMAO, spread the wealth.

http://standupforamerica.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/socialism-poster.jpg

[Proven]

LMAO, spread the wealth.

Hows your proposal for health care reform coming along? You have any solutions to help the American economy? or just "Obama's wrong"

The guy in the pic is a victim of socialism? Whats your definition of socialism? In your words And don't just say "the way Obama wants things."

[poolmike]

Hows your proposal for health care reform coming along? You have any solutions to help the American economy? or just "Obama's wrong"

The guy in the pic is a victim of socialism? Whats your definition of socialism? In your words And don't just say "the way Obama wants things."


You really confuse me. You view progress, earning money, and success as evil, yet you feel we are currently in an economic crisis since people are not making money and growing business? You also stated on several occasions that gov't helped create this so called economic crisis, yet you are looking toward the gov't to fix the situation. Please, help me understand your thoughts.

[importpower99]

Why are you making this a republican vs. democrat issue. It does not matter what side blows the freakin money. It is time to start kicking all of them out of office. If you were angry that Bush started TARP, why aren't you still angry now?

Because the investment into GM made a sense. The extra money to AIG I didn't agree with.

[OutlawzPrez]

Hows your proposal for health care reform coming along? You have any solutions to help the American economy? or just "Obama's wrong"

The guy in the pic is a victim of socialism? Whats your definition of socialism? In your words And don't just say "the way Obama wants things."

Solutions:
Instead of a putting Washington in control over personal health care decisions, individuals and families should be the key decision makers in their health care. Proposals that give fair and equal tax treatment for those who buy health coverage on their own, encourage states to develop solutions that will give individuals direct control of the flow of health care dollars, and finance reform by restructuring existing spending, not more spending, are key steps to solving America’s health care problems.

Such a system would promote personal ownership; give Americans more health choices, and force health plans and providers to compete directly for their dollars. The end result would lower costs and guarantee better quality.

HERE IS ANOTHER SOLUTION FOR AMERICA & TO STRENGTHEN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.
http://www.hannity.com//Article.asp?id=1193278


Socialism:
A theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

[importpower99]

Solutions:
Instead of a putting Washington in control over personal health care decisions, individuals and families should be the key decision makers in their health care. Proposals that give fair and equal tax treatment for those who buy health coverage on their own, encourage states to develop solutions that will give individuals direct control of the flow of health care dollars, and finance reform by restructuring existing spending, not more spending, are key steps to solving America’s health care problems.

Such a system would promote personal ownership; give Americans more health choices, and force health plans and providers to compete directly for their dollars. The end result would lower costs and guarantee better quality.

HERE IS ANOTHER SOLUTION FOR AMERICA & TO STRENGTHEN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.
http://www.hannity.com//Article.asp?id=1193278


Socialism:
A theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

That is not an answer to his question. That wouldn't do anything to address our current problems. None of that is affordable for people who can't afford it.
And That doesn't stop people from filing for bankruptcy when the medical bills get to high.
And you can't FORCE healthcare providers to do anything! If there not making the money they want, they will just pull out or strengthen their criteria.

And that sean hannity pages has too much B.S on there for me to comment on. I did read it though, I thought I would only find one stupid item, but i was wrong.

And don't forget to watch the daily show tonight!

[OutlawzPrez]

THIS JUST IN;

Top White House adviser Lawrence H. Summers would not rule out middle-class tax increases as a way to pay for the Obama administration to pay for a sweeping health care plan, according to The Washington Times.

[Proven]

THIS JUST IN;

Top White House adviser Lawrence H. Summers would not rule out middle-class tax increases as a way to pay for the Obama administration to pay for a sweeping health care plan, according to The Washington Times.

So according to a news paper one of the people that works for Obama isn't ruling out that tax increases may happen for the middle class? Whats this prove?

[poolmike]

So according to a news paper one of the people that works for Obama isn't ruling out that tax increases may happen for the middle class? Whats this prove?

It proves that he lied to you again.

[Proven]

You really confuse me. You view progress, earning money, and success as evil, yet you feel we are currently in an economic crisis since people are not making money and growing business? You also stated on several occasions that gov't helped create this so called economic crisis, yet you are looking toward the gov't to fix the situation. Please, help me understand your thoughts.

It would be confusing if you thought that I thought earning money was something evil. I don't. I wish everyone who started a business made millions and I wish everyone who helped them make those millions made good money themselves. What I'm against is money being made in a greedy fashion (which our Country currently allows big time). If a owner of a Company makes (his salary after cost of business) 500k annually and his next highest paid employee makes 40k w/ no health coverage/profit sharing I see a problem, and that problem is greed. Or Business owners who are already well off haggling to pay lower salaries, not offering health insurance, and dropping hours so he can profit more makes me sick in my stomach.

Reason I feel the economical crisis is at the hands of government is because they allow this greed. Most Republicans even like to give these Companies tax breaks and want to be their friend. We now have a president that wants to put an end to it all which is why I'm for Obama not necessarily Government like you think.