Making Power

[BigWhiteTodd]

Ok I'm going to build a real honda lol I'm trying to figure what's the most hp pumpgas can handle, also what the best setup I'm looking for around 600hp give or take. I'm thinking build b20 bottom with gsr head also built. But also thinks full gsr. I'm not going cheap so I want to know were the pump gas ends and race fuel starts. So help me out I wanna hear know what I can and can't use.

[underpressure02]

I am guessing this is going to be a track only car? As the turbo you will need to make that much power will be useless on the street, also with that much power you will never be able to use it on the street because all you will do is spin. Besides the motor, what are your plans for the clutch, axles, transmission, injectors, motor mounts, cooling system and so on? It is not to hard to make that much power but to keep the motors together and the rest of the car together is where it is going to get expensive. I would just find an ls or gsr block sleeved unless you are set on getting a b20 sleeved.

[sundaybikes]

all motor! screw 600 whp go be a beast with 240 whp with a sick ls-v setup todd

im doing poor-mans type-r in the summer, gsr block with p30's and a built head.shooting for 200 whp in the em1

[BigWhiteTodd]

yeah as for mounts going to be hasport race or something strong axles are driveshaft shop idk the levels but those cooling going to need help with that half rad alum with good fan, trans hmm stock nah jk open to opinions. clutch goes with what trans im gettin this is all going into a da but im thinking of up grading from cable to hydro. i have a ls block now i could was thinking of just sticking with that, an yes track car only.

[BigWhiteTodd]

all motor! screw 600 whp go be a beast with 240 whp with a sick ls-v setup todd

im doing poor-mans type-r in the summer, gsr block with p30's and a built head.shooting for 200 whp in the em1

All motor is boring haha I wanna go fast plus I love turbo cars drove a 400 hp civic its was amazing.

[underpressure02]

yeah as for mounts going to be hasport race or something strong axles are driveshaft shop idk the levels but those cooling going to need help with that half rad alum with good fan, trans hmm stock nah jk open to opinions. clutch goes with what trans im gettin this is all going into a da but im thinking of up grading from cable to hydro. i have a ls block now i could was thinking of just sticking with that, an yes track car only.

I am only speaking for experience but I would start off with 350-450 hp and see if you really need 600. I use to dailly drive my "race-car" when it was making 306 at the wheels about 200 miles a day. Took it to the track every weekend beat the piss out of it and never had an issue and it was so much fun to drive. Instead of just seeing what I could max out the turbo at I decided to do a big build and I wish I wouldn't have. Sure the car is fast, but it is a headache. I can't drive it on the streets much anymore for fear of getting pulled over or someone stealing it. The power is totally useless as soon as the turbo builds a little bit of boost the DR break loose and I can really only use the car at the track.

I would build the car for a usable hp and it will be alot cheaper. You can make 350-450 on a stock block and have no issues as long as the tune is good. Get a decent clutch stock axles and go have fun.

Your stock tranny should hold 600 before breaking gears some last longer others don't really depends on a lot of things. Just get a good lsd.

[mikes7ke]

All motor is more power than you'll need for the front wheels. I have a built b20b vtec sitting at RT Tuning waiting for someone to buy it. ;)

[DC2.2GSR]

Danny's 500+ hp GSR (http://www.team-integra.net/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=12&TopicID=212451&SearchPagePosition=1&search=%22danny%22&searchMode=allwords&searchIn=Topic&forum=0&searchSort=dateDESC&ReturnPage=Search)

he's sure as hell not the first or only one out there making that power, but it's definitely a good example of it.

[BigWhiteTodd]

Yeah maybe go a little lower on power but if I'm building it might as well put it to use, I'm not trying to throw something together. As for all motor nah I'm good

[K20EF9]

600whp

Well you need a sleeved block. Might as well not beat around the bush and just get an 84mm Sleeved Ls Bottom end. Some Pauter Rods, I'd say some 9:1 to 10:1 JE pistons. For the head I'd get some standard dish valves, dual valvesprings, some skunk 2 pro1 Cams, victor x intake manifold, at least a 65mm TB. GE complete lsv/b20v kit.

Might as well not beat around the bush for your turbo setup either, Full-Race or an AFI Turbo kit something around a t3/t67 sized turbo with a 4 inch downpipe, You will want to do a sumped set up or Twin Walboro 255's, 1000cc injectors.

For tuning I'd go with Neptune or Hondata.

I'd definitely run an LSD. For a clutch I really wouldn't dick around there either you want something that will handle 600whp. Possibly a twin disc.

If you are going to do this legit and proper I hope you have $15,000

If it's going to be a track car than **** pumpgas, just run racegas.

[BigWhiteTodd]

Thanks that's all the stuff I was asking.

[underpressure02]

You are going to need to go bigger then a t3/t67 turbo to make 600. Also plan on buying a new dizzy oem not distributor king or a t1 setup for your ign so you don't have break up issues. If you have an old beat up wireharness might want to add that to your list also to eliminate a ton of headaches.

[Got Insulin?]

I don't really think you appreciate how rediculous 600HP cars are. Do you have the time, money, and know-how to build this? Let alone maitain it, or for that matter, drive it? 400 FWHP is way enough for anything that is even going to touch the street, man. I suggest that before you fall too hard, learning to walk before you run.

[K20EF9]

You are going to need to go bigger then a t3/t67 turbo to make 600. Also plan on buying a new dizzy oem not distributor king or a t1 setup for your ign so you don't have break up issues. If you have an old beat up wireharness might want to add that to your list also to eliminate a ton of headaches.

Why would you need bigger than a t67..?

One of my friends put down 541whp on 19 psi and c12 on a built 2.0L.

A t67 is comparable to a 37r.

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1345376

[BigWhiteTodd]

but as for street legal thats that'snot what im I'mworried about if its going to get drivin hard it going to the track im I'mnot retarded like most. No I can't drive I'm going to build a 600hp car and kill my self I've driving high hp fwd an rwd so I can handle it an I'm aming for 600 doesn't mean that's what building. Yes I got the know how and time an money so check check and check. My real ? Wass were does pump gas end an race gas being, also I'm not just building a car out of no were I've been talkin to mb racing on what I should get I trust these guys they have 600+ street legal cars I know for a fact cause of a dyno day they had, as for t67 it can handle what I'm going for I said 600 I mean around there. What you guys think about a jdm turbo kit from ebay hahaah

[BigWhiteTodd]

An I heard the msd dizzy is good and harness is going to get looked over make sure I don't have a fire. Ok what ecu program should I run?

[Got Insulin?]

I hear that grammar gets like 70whp....

[chim64]

I would do a built h22 and do a h2b swap kit in it. .. good gains. Then after that slap a turbo in. You will have a wicked setup

[BigWhiteTodd]

Yeah its not easy doing this on a phone so grammer doesn't always come first. H2b like that delsol on youtube the one that beats the lambo.

[DC2.2GSR]

but as for street legal thats that'snot what im I'mworried about if its going to get drivin hard it going to the track im I'mnot retarded like most. No I can't drive I'm going to build a 600hp car and kill my self I've driving high hp fwd an rwd so I can handle it an I'm aming for 600 doesn't mean that's what building. Yes I got the know how and time an money so check check and check. My real ? Wass were does pump gas end an race gas being, also I'm not just building a car out of no were I've been talkin to mb racing on what I should get I trust these guys they have 600+ street legal cars I know for a fact cause of a dyno day they had, as for t67 it can handle what I'm going for I said 600 I mean around there. What you guys think about a jdm turbo kit from ebay hahaah

oh emm gee... was that even english? lol

chim64 - after much research it's my personal opinion that H22s must stay NA. there are plenty of ways to build them so they are capable turbo'ed motors, but it's not worth the headache. people have repeatedly proven that the GSR motor is the absolute best bang for your buck when you've got turbo dreams.

[Keeper1343]

not really there.... F23 block, h22 head, H2B kit with LSD tranny, and 12lbs = high 10's. F23 block is sleeved from honda stock. H22 vtec head bolts up with some fabrication. H2b kit is easy. And slap together a decent turbo kit. The only trouble you will run into is getting the power down. i would say for about 7K you can run high 10's. you figure regular stock h22's with a H2B kit run mid 12's. then add 200 HP from the turbo and you have a monster.

[K20EF9]

not really there.... F23 block, h22 head, H2B kit with LSD tranny, and 12lbs = high 10's. F23 block is sleeved from honda stock. H22 vtec head bolts up with some fabrication. H2b kit is easy. And slap together a decent turbo kit. The only trouble you will run into is getting the power down. i would say for about 7K you can run high 10's. you figure regular stock h22's with a H2B kit run mid 12's. then add 200 HP from the turbo and you have a monster.


I don't see how building an h2b setup would be any cheaper since he's aiming for 600whp. If anything it would cost more.

[BigWhiteTodd]

Not going H not worth the hassle. Sticking with B series, I think I'm going to get a gsr I'm hearing good things about those engines. Or I found a dart block for pretty cheap, well not cheap but low for a dart block.

[highmilehatch]

My real ? Wass were does pump gas end an race gas being,

There's too many variables. Displacement, ve, turbo size, amount of backpressure. I'd say wherever your tuner feels comfortable stopping on pump. You should be able to do something around 450 on pump staying under 20 psi with a T67 sized compressor wheel, 84mm, big cams, IM, TB.

By the way, keep us posted with this build. Should be interesting.

[underpressure02]

not really there.... F23 block, h22 head, H2B kit with LSD tranny, and 12lbs = high 10's. F23 block is sleeved from honda stock. H22 vtec head bolts up with some fabrication. H2b kit is easy. And slap together a decent turbo kit. The only trouble you will run into is getting the power down. i would say for about 7K you can run high 10's. you figure regular stock h22's with a H2B kit run mid 12's. then add 200 HP from the turbo and you have a monster.

If it was that easy to run 10's why are more people doing that setup? Also at 12psi are you for real? What did the car weigh? How much power did it suppodly make at 12psi?

[BigWhiteTodd]

I always heard the f22 block and h22 head was better for all motor. Man this going to be fun to build, I'm thinking but end of summer it might be done but who knows.

[Keeper1343]

I always heard the f22 block and h22 head was better for all motor. Man this going to be fun to build, I'm thinking but end of summer it might be done but who knows.


people were afraid to boost their h22's cause of the FRM block. But since the f23 is iron sleeved it is good for any high output application.

[BigWhiteTodd]

I've seen boosted f22's they can move but id rather stay bseries,

[Keeper1343]

what are your plans for your car? Drag?

[K20EF9]

What else would do with 600whp..?

[BigWhiteTodd]

Nah I'm going to make it a autox car/ daily driver nah its going to be a race car I would like to drive once and awhile but if I can't not a big deal. Maybe I should aim lwer idk I just was looking around saw a lot of cars in the 600 hp range so I figure that was pretty good area but after all this talk made I will go down a bit.

[DC2.2GSR]

Nah I'm going to make it a autox car/ daily driver nah its going to be a race car I would like to drive once and awhile but if I can't not a big deal. Maybe I should aim lwer idk I just was looking around saw a lot of cars in the 600 hp range so I figure that was pretty good area but after all this talk made I will go down a bit.

yeah rethink that 600hp thing for sure. unless the car permanently has slicks mounted and gets trailered to the track, then in my opinion it's good for nothing more than a highway wheelspin monster... which is obviously pointless. to make 600hp and use the car for autocross would be a huge disappointment. i don't doubt you'd get spanked by a stock single cam civic with great suspension. your car would take a year to spool up and once it does, you'd just sit there and smoke off the tires.

as highmilehatch said, 450 is perfectly reasonable and easy to do.. just expensive.

[TurboGSR96]

You are going to need to go bigger then a t3/t67 turbo to make 600. Also plan on buying a new dizzy oem not distributor king or a t1 setup for your ign so you don't have break up issues. If you have an old beat up wireharness might want to add that to your list also to eliminate a ton of headaches.


excuse me? I made 585 at only 23psi with a T67 on a 1.8L with GSR cams......

A Stg5 T3/T67 is good for 650hp or so

A T3/T67ho is good for up to 750hp

[TurboGSR96]

BTW you cant AutoX a 600whp Honda, it would be pointless. If you dont want to drag race it but you do want to AutoX it get a GT28RS

[BigWhiteTodd]

Yeah autox was a joke haha as for 450hp is still a wheel spin whore, I don't plan on racing on the street, and I will only drive it once an awhile. Turbo gsr do you ever drive your on the street? Also what kind of setup you got.

[dragonfly2k3]

on a note about the 10s. a 500whp civic hatch gutted to hell would be capable of going 10s. Factory dry weight for a base model hatch is 2100lbs(ish) In other words, with enough gutting and c/f you could get it down to 1800lbs.

[BigWhiteTodd]

See that the prob I want some of my interior, I'm not worried about a.c or heat so droppin that. And power steering an all that abs b.s.

[K20EF9]

on a note about the 10s. a 500whp civic hatch gutted to hell would be capable of going 10s. Factory dry weight for a base model hatch is 2100lbs(ish) In other words, with enough gutting and c/f you could get it down to 1800lbs.

You don't need 500whp or a fully gutted car to go 10s.

[BigWhiteTodd]

yeah true i want interior i hate gutted cars my back half is right now because of body work its so ugly.

[Keeper1343]

why do you care if its gonna be a race car??? You better cage this car. Your not running 10's on any track without some type of cage. not sure how many points you need. you might just need a roll bar and harnesses.

[BigWhiteTodd]

yeah true i aleast want front seats up idc about the back.

[underpressure02]

on a note about the 10s. a 500whp civic hatch gutted to hell would be capable of going 10s. Factory dry weight for a base model hatch is 2100lbs(ish) In other words, with enough gutting and c/f you could get it down to 1800lbs.


Your not going to get a turbo hatch down to 1800 lbs unless it is a pro car that is all tined out, lexan windows and cf, one piece front end, little fuel cell and so on. Most cars in the sfwd class are in the high 2200 and get fatter from there. I have to add 150lbs to make weight for sfwd.

[TurboGSR96]

Yeah autox was a joke haha as for 450hp is still a wheel spin whore, I don't plan on racing on the street, and I will only drive it once an awhile. Turbo gsr do you ever drive your on the street? Also what kind of setup you got.


My car is a total street car with a full interior minus the rear seats, its completely streetable, it only took me 500whp to go 11.0 is a 2650lb DC with driver, with 600whp and a proper suspension setup you should be able to go 10.0's.


My setup is a simple 1.8L with OEM GSR Cams and a T67ho tuned on E85.

[BigWhiteTodd]

yeah im going to aim lower whats the track rules for cages anyone know cause bembe from mb went 9 with no cage oh and full interior street car, see its not the car its the driver too i know but street legal 9 sec honda thats sick

[Got Insulin?]

Lower than 10s and you need a cage or you get the boot

[BigWhiteTodd]

yeah just looked it up 10's u need a cage well if i go that low i will put in a cage but im not worried about that now.

[TurboGSR96]

Faster than 135mph you need an NHRA license, full 10pt, window net, harnesses and a fire jacket. Its a nice $3500 investment... lol

[BigWhiteTodd]

Faster than 135mph you need an NHRA license, full 10pt, window net, harnesses and a fire jacket. Its a nice $3500 investment... lol

haha 130 then i will let off the gas, i dont think i will be going that fast i wish i could but a cage and all that might as well say bye to making it streetable, cop see's a cage an a window net going to be asking alot of ?.

[underpressure02]

Faster than 135mph you need an NHRA license, full 10pt, window net, harnesses and a fire jacket. Its a nice $3500 investment... lol

Fire suit not just a jacket, gloves, shoes, along with cut off switch, scatter shield, sfi approved dampner, sfi approved clutch/flywheel, oh don't forget to get that cage certed also.

[BigWhiteTodd]

haha im not going that fast if so im going to slow it down im tryin to go fast, i am not trying to be a pro

[underpressure02]

haha im not going that fast if so im going to slow it down im tryin to go fast, i am not trying to be a pro

It has nothing to do with being a pro, rules are rules. If you plan on having a 600HP civic and racing it at the track then you are going to need to meet the saftey equipment rules.

[K20EF9]

I also thought this year at 135mph they were making you have a chute too.

[Gregory]

I also thought this year at 135mph they were making you have a chute too.

I will check my rulebook when I get home, but I believe up to 2008 (like I said, I'll check 2009) it's 150mph you have to have a chute. You don't have to pull it. You just have to have it.

[underpressure02]

I also thought this year at 135mph they were making you have a chute too.

A few years ago there was this "rule" that u had to have a chute if u went over 135 but did not have to pull it till u went 150

[K20EF9]

I will check my rulebook when I get home, but I believe up to 2008 (like I said, I'll check 2009) it's 150mph you have to have a chute. You don't have to pull it. You just have to have it.

Yes I know it was 150mph before but a few people were saying they are dropping it down to 135mph I don't know if it's true or not.

[Gregory]

A few years ago there was this "rule" that u had to have a chute if u went over 135 but did not have to pull it till u went 150

Even if you hit 150, you don't HAVE to pull it. It hasn't ever been that way.

[underpressure02]

Even if you hit 150, you don't HAVE to pull it. It hasn't ever been that way.

Not sure where u have raced but for all nhra and Nopi events if u went 150 or over and did not pull it your run was dqed and u lost the round. What class did u race in again?

[TurboGSR96]

I have seen alot of cars not pull the chutes at NHRA events, I can tell you I definately wouldnt be pulling mine at 135mph, I stopped easy as hell at Cecil County but they have a 1/2 mile shutdown.

[BigWhiteTodd]

Yeah I want a chute and drive it around haha sick nasty but on the other note what is a. Safe hp to put my car at then I want like 500 then I'm still building the sizzle out of my motor.

[Keeper1343]

just stay around 400... its still streetable. But i would still upgrade the **** out of my brakes and chassis. I would still cage it too. Cause i don't want to bang out and die.

[BigWhiteTodd]

yeah idk maybe stay at 600hp area when i get my block i will choose what i wanna do.

[Gregory]

Not sure where u have raced but for all nhra and Nopi events if u went 150 or over and did not pull it your run was dqed and u lost the round. What class did u race in again?

I've raced at Maple Grove, Cecil County, Atco, Beaver, Bristol, and a couple more.

I race Pro generally and hit 155 top end every run. Sit there and watch super... Every dragster and most door cars in that class are well over 150 and only a handful pull the chute, and that's only because they opt to. That IS NHRA.

[underpressure02]

I've raced at Maple Grove, Cecil County, Atco, Beaver, Bristol, and a couple more.

I race Pro generally and hit 155 top end every run. Sit there and watch super... Every dragster and most door cars in that class are well over 150 and only a handful pull the chute, and that's only because they opt to. That IS NHRA.


So you never raced at a NHRA SC or NOPI event then? I am just telling you what was told to us before each event at the drivers meeting and what I have seen happen durining elimnations if the chute was not pulled. I have not race a domestics since the early 90's so I don't know what rules your events have.

And isn't it your dad or brother that runs the 'PRO' car? I though that car was a bracket / index car not a 'PRO' car.

[Gregory]

So you never raced at a NHRA SC or NOPI event then? I am just telling you what was told to us before each event at the drivers meeting and what I have seen happen durining elimnations if the chute was not pulled. I have not race a domestics since the early 90's so I don't know what rules your events have.

And isn't it your dad or brother that runs the 'PRO' car? I though that car was a bracket / index car not a 'PRO' car.

Yea dude, Pro is the name of a bracket class I race in along with my brother and dad. I wasn't aware the OP was planning on racing NHRA SP and Nopi events.

[underpressure02]

Yea dude, Pro is the name of a bracket class I race in along with my brother and dad. I wasn't aware the OP was planning on racing NHRA SP and Nopi events.

There is no more NHRA or NOPI SC but that is where I was talking about for the rule of pulling it after 150. Although the other SC events go off of the NHRA SC rules so the rule still stands if he were to go that fast he would need the chute and also would need to pull it.

[BigWhiteTodd]

soo 150mph is around a 9 sec run im not trying to go that fast i think i will stay in the 11 or 10 sec range, because 11 sec is faster then alot of cars and i can still drive it 10 is pushing it but its a hell of a ride.

[K20EF9]

Have you ever driven a 10-11 second FWD Turbo Honda..? My boys integra is crazy at the end of the track on slacks, it's just dancing all over the place at 130mph.

[dragonfly2k3]

This thread is useless. Until you decide what you want out of the car, and learn how to use punctuation, nobody can help you. In the last 4 pages you have gone back and forth between 600hp, 400hp, 500hp, and 11sec several times, make up your mind before you ask for help. If you are just asking how to make power theres a few easy rules, built motor, big turbo, big cams, big boost, and NO SHORTCUTS!

[Keeper1343]

thank you for saying that... There are a tons of ways to make power as well. Just so you know, 600 hp is gonna be around mid to high 10's

[BigWhiteTodd]

thanks but if you dont like my thread gtfo its that simple haha

[rich33389]

If you havent even run 13's yet I wouldnt even begin to think about 10's!

If you have to ask how to run tens or make 600 hp then I doubt that your gonna do it, it takes ALOT of time, fabrication, MONEY, driving skills, MONEY, and TIME.

[Keeper1343]

everyone has givin you good info... you can't make up your mind on anything. You don't know if you want to run 10's,11's, or 12's. you don't know if you want 600,500, or 450 HP. You dont know if your gonna be driving it on the street or just on the track. You need to not get so upset when people are trying to help you but your not helping us help you. Yuo can't change your mind 1000 times and think your not gonna get people aggrivated who are obviously taking time to help you reach your goal. So if you want to have an attitude then fine... Go on honda-tech and see what kind of responses you get.

[driftingrx5.7]

this thread is pointless and all it is doing is causing a lot of fights for no reason. when you have a real plan or a real question post it then. until then please don't open a thread like this