Brake upgrade questions. Not sure which way to go...

[Subie_sleeper]

I'm looking for thoughts on the best way to upgrade my brakes on the Baja. I ordered a full set of EBC slotted and dimpled rotors today. The guy told me that I don't need to upgrade the stock pads right away. He could have easily sold me pads w/the order. His logic was to let the new rotors break in with the stock pads and change them in a month or two. He also said that fade wouldn't be an issue with the stock pads because the new rotors are like cheese graters and take material off the pad way quicker than stock smooth rotors , meaning no fade. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

[malloyboy1]

i cant offer help on the brakes but i can say i ran ebc's green stuff pads and didnt like them. i changed to hawk pads and they were great, not sure if they are available for the baja but they probably are

[Subie_sleeper]

thanks. I heard that about their pads. The reviews for the rotors were good. time will tell.

[TROLL]

hmm i dont know who you bought them from but i dont entirely agree with what he said here...

your pads affect braking far more than your rotors... i'd say the order of upgrading brakes would be pads, lines/fluid, then rotors... but doing them all certainly cant hurt. the pads will certainly be the biggest change though...

slotted rotors allow outgassing of the pads more easily, which is actually not nearly as much of a concern with new technology compared to the past. it will also shave a very thin layer of material off the pads with each pass which prevents glazing. neither of these are overly beneficial and when it comes down to it, slotted / dimpled / drilled rotors are basically for looks most of the time, which is ok. They do not prevent fade from stock pads though, thats not true.

as far as pads go, different pads are designed to work optimally in a certain heat range. when they are in their range, they will grip at full capacity, but when they are out of the range they will not grip nearly as well and thats when you experience brake fade. some pads work great from 0-300 degrees, some work great from 100-500 degrees, some work great from 400-700 degrees, etc. what that means to you is that you need to pick a pad that works well for the kind of driving you do, and if that is street driving you want something thats going to be decent at low temps since thats what most street driving is, but it will also hold up when you're on the brakes a bit harder. an overly mild or overly aggressive pad will result in poor braking all around, so its important to find the right balance.

so, if you're still with me, i'd recommend looking into carbotech bobcats, hawk hps, or ferodo ds2500 pads... they're all performance street pads that generally get pretty good reviews.
Also consider some stainless steel lines and ATE Superblue or TYP200 fluid while you're bleeding anyway.

[Subie_sleeper]

Thanks for the help man. That was way more info than I thought I'd get and a hell of a lot faster too. I'm running a plus 2 tire and wheel setup. 245 45 18s on 18X8 O.Z. Ultraleggeras. I don't want to shell out the cash for a big brake kit if I don't need to. Do you think I'll be ok w/the stock size upgraded rotors if I find the right pads? Also , are the Hawk pads sold retail anywhere ? I hate ordering stuff online and waiting for it. Actually I just hate waiting. Ask Ryan at 1320 , he'll tell ya. (thanks for putting up w/me Ryan )

[TROLL]

for street driving and autox you definitely dont need a big brake kit, so you're good. i'd definitely get some pads and you should be fine, and if you've got an extra $120 in the budget and someone to help you bleed your brakes, then add the stainless steel lines and fluid too. i'm not sure who carries what, but i've got to guess that quite a few of the forum vendors can take care of you

and just fyi big brake kits provide better heat disipation (sp?) to prevent fade, better leverage to stop the car since the rotor is farther from the center of the wheel, and usually better pedal feel for threshold braking. one thing people dont realize is that big brakes often arent necessary as usually the grip of the tire to the road is the limiting factor in stopping, not the braking system. (if you can activate your ABS, or lock up your wheels if you dont have ABS, then your brakes overpower your tires.)


if you want to keep yourself busy for a while, check out the sticky in the suspension and brakes forum, you'll be a pro by the time you finish reading it in a week or two : http://www.tristatetuners.com/forum/...ead.php?t=7660

[Subie_sleeper]

thanks again man. This will help me at work when tuner customers come in. I know most of the technical specs on stock Subies pretty well , but when it comes to stuff like this I'm really green. TST is a kick ass resource for me as a sales rep when dealing w gearhead customers. Most of the guys at work don't want to be bothered w the tuner crowd unless the're getting a new car w no plans to mod it right away. The only problem now is there are so many things i want to read about that eating and sleeping are being neglected. Hell , I didn't even pick up my pre-ordered Halo 3 yet. lol. Thanks again. I sleep now.

[Wiisass]

If you're going to get good pads soon, then don't even bother running the new rotors. I know Carbotech specifically says that the rotor surface needs to be totally clean of any pad material, so resurfaced, before using their pads. Unless you're just replacing used Carbotechs with new ones. It may not be as much an issue with other pads or less agressive pads, but the rotors should probably be resurfaced anyway when switching between different pad compounds.

Also, make sure to properly bed the pads. Otherwise, it's just a waste.

But definitely do lines and use good fluid. I like Motul and AP Racing fluids better than a lot of the stuff. I have used ATE and it was nice that it was blue so I knew when the old fluid was out.

Oh and the guy who sold you the stuff is an idiot. Pretty much everything he said was wrong. Shaving material off the pads will prevent fade? Yeah, that sounds like it's going to work. Fade happens because things get too hot, whether it's the pads getting too hot and out of their operating range and the friction coefficient dropping drastically. Or the fluid in the lines getting too hot and essentially boiling and something like that won't work well as a hydraulic fluid.

[Honest_Bob]

Originally Posted by Wiisass

I know Carbotech specifically says that the rotor surface needs to be totally clean of any pad material, so resurfaced, before using their pads.

I believe my Hawk HPS pads had the same warning.

[Ender81]

I'm glad other people popped in here because I was telling him a lot of the same things.

[Subie_sleeper]

Originally Posted by Wiisass

If you're going to get good pads soon, then don't even bother running the new rotors. I know Carbotech specifically says that the rotor surface needs to be totally clean of any pad material, so resurfaced, before using their pads. Unless you're just replacing used Carbotechs with new ones. It may not be as much an issue with other pads or less agressive pads, but the rotors should probably be resurfaced anyway when switching between different pad compounds.

Also, make sure to properly bed the pads. Otherwise, it's just a waste.

But definitely do lines and use good fluid. I like Motul and AP Racing fluids better than a lot of the stuff. I have used ATE and it was nice that it was blue so I knew when the old fluid was out.

Oh and the guy who sold you the stuff is an idiot. Pretty much everything he said was wrong. Shaving material off the pads will prevent fade? Yeah, that sounds like it's going to work. Fade happens because things get too hot, whether it's the pads getting too hot and out of their operating range and the friction coefficient dropping drastically. Or the fluid in the lines getting too hot and essentially boiling and something like that won't work well as a hydraulic fluid.

It looks like a good deal on parts and total BS on the install and break in almost caused me a big problem. Thanks everyone for the help. Oh yeah, Ender ... I owe you an apology. I should have taken you more seriously from the beginning.I was dead wrong, My bad.

[DropTopChevy]

I did both pads and rotors at the same time. The difference is night and day. I love it. I went with drilled rotors cause i hear slotted eat up pads. From higher speed hard braking the brakes dont get upset at all.

[RbBuGbiTme]

Good lord, its been said already but don't ever listen to anything that guy ever says to you! Maybe even tell him where he's wrong if you do speak with him again so he isn't "spreading knowledge" to other guys like you.

[Nick 95 6sp]

I use Carbotech pads ...XP10's now, prior set was XP8's, and I really like them a lot; no fade at all even on the track after repeated hard braking from above average speeds with a heavy car (Supra weighs over 3500lbs).

I think the main reason Carbotech strongly advises to use their pads on fresh rotors and then bed them in properly (most high performance pads need to be properly bedded after installation) is because they are ceramic compound pads, so the layer that forms on the rotor from other materials is not "compatible" with the ceramic pads; if you had other pads and are keeping the rotors, they should be turned/cleaned up to remove the old surface.

[Subie_sleeper]

I'm going to have the pads and rotors on by the end of next week. I ordered the hawk hps front and rear. We'll see what happens.

[Subie_sleeper]

Ordered stoptech stainless steel lines for the baja today. Also ordered the new version of the EBC redstuff pads. I talked with a guy from EBC for a while and explained what has been happening using the Hawk pads and EBC rotors on the baja. Apparently I've been heating the pads up too much(according to him).The hawks do recover quickly , but aren't suited well for the way I want to run the car.He said that the rotor life will be shorter with the redstuff pads but dusting will be less and they will perform how I want them to.