So I went to Atco today, and i hate my car......

[2point4DSM]

Originally Posted by Prototype240

I think I'm just going to bow out and agree to disagree. I've seen results of it...and I know that I've been told of ram air actually stepping into the realm of boost. But I'm respectfully bowing out.

Does it feel like we are arguing with V8 people. haha.

"No way your little 4 cylinder is going to keep up with my almighty V8." haha.

[2point4DSM]

Originally Posted by igo4bmx

air travels always the direction of least resistance therefor when air travels toward the direction of a "ram air" setup, you would realize that air would divert and travel around it (where there is little resistance)

In your example we wouldn't be able to get air through our radiators. Hmmmm. And explaint why duct work to radiators actually help it work.

[igo4bmx]

Originally Posted by 2point4DSM

And as I said before my buddy in the civic had to raise his fuel pressure after installing the intake just to keep his A/Fs the same which he didn't have to do when he was just running an AEM CAI. Burning more fuel = more power....

so your friend bought a cheap ass setup and he spent him time and money hooking up a wideband to take a look at the a/f's??

cuz the stock honda narrowband o2 sensors can't tell you anything...

[igo4bmx]

Originally Posted by 2point4DSM

In your example we wouldn't be able to get air through our radiators. Hmmmm. And explaint why duct work to radiators actually help it work.

car radiator systems are closed loop for most of the time unless the cap opens to relieve pressure ;)

[Blackout]

damn..I didn't even know they made automatic GT-S'. Now I feel I have a race car if an automatic GT-S is running those times! But here's what I would do.......find a dealership that would trade you straight up for a GT-S with a stick

[Aaron]

And that will help how?

[Nitro]

Originally Posted by 2point4DSM

Getting out of the hole with more power means you gotta be able to put that power to the ground. Then you have to worry about breakage issues.

I like the idea of just letting the car come out softly and pulling hard once it gets going. Sort of like Honda's Vtec. Mild mannered till you hit those revs and then it's a whole different animal kind of thing.

But remember, every tenth you cut off your 60' times will cut 2 off your quarter mile times, give or take as a general rule of thumb. As long as he has decent street tires on it, aired down to the optimum pressure (I find most street tires like around 25 psi) he should be able to get that power to the ground. And it's not like he'll be breaking stuff. It's still an auto trans no matter how you look at it, it's still gonna be easier on the axles thqn a clutch drop in a manual car. And, it's a mod that might cost around $300 give or take, but it can be installed easily over a weekend. Hell, I've already rebuilt my entire 5 speed in a day. Should be a 4-6 hour job, even in a home garage with hand tools.

[Blackout]

Originally Posted by Aaron

And that will help how?

hmmm.....lets see......oh i dunno all the power loss through a automatic will be out the window and mid to low 15's will be right there with a stick. Other then that I dunno BTW.....I was just messing around before, dont look into it so seriously

[2point4DSM]

oo

[2point4DSM]

Originally Posted by igo4bmx

car radiator systems are closed loop for most of the time unless the cap opens to relieve pressure ;)

You totally lost me cause now your talking about fluid dynamics inside the passages of a cooling system. I thought we were talking about air flow, and specifically flow through a radiator. My point is that air flow through a radiator is a good example of why your argument is wrong.

[UnderPoweredRS]

Originally Posted by 2point4DSM

You totally lost me cause now your talking about fluid dynamics inside the passages of a cooling system. I thought we were talking about air flow, and specifically flow through a radiator. My point is that air flow through a radiator is a good example of why your argument is wrong.

If he is wrong then why do people put radiator shrouds on there cars? to keep the air from going around the radiator. Some air will pass but some will go around the radiator. A ram air setup will "ram) air into the intake. I'm not saying that every bit of air will get drawn in a good bit of the air will flow around the other air that is getting drawn in. The air will speed up as it enters the intake(to make room for a higher flow of air) when the air can no longer speed up the ram air is maxed out and can not flow any more air. from there you would need a pump to pressurize the air and send it into the intake.

[teh DIRT]

just saw this. my best run at atco was a 17.3 all stock. which makes me think that either your car wasnt running right at atco or my car was real slow the day we raced because you had more than a tenth on me when we raced.
-pete

[piratius]

Coming to chris's defense (prototype240)

The funnel analogy doesn't work because aside from gravity there's no force applied to the oil.

Air has mass, agreed? Even though in normal circumstances we don't think about it. It has mass, else Mass-airflow systems wouldn't work.

Because of this, as the car passes through the air, at increasing velocities, the force of the mass of stationary air against the front of the car is what we know as "wind resistance" or "airflow resistance". It's a property of any system that involves fluid/air dynamics.

Now. The hand-out-the-window analogy is a good example of how much force the mass of air has on a moving object. If you held a cup out the window (assuming it had a pressure gauge attachment and logged pressure vs. car speed), and started at a stop you'd see no pressure. As you went 5 miles an hour, it'd probably still be not-noticable. As speed increased, you'd realize it was harder and harder to keep the cup stationary. Why? Because the mass of air pushing on your hand is causing...pressure against it!.

The faster you go, the more pressure you'd see inside the cup. Repeat the experiment with a small hole in the cup. At low speeds, and even medium-low speeds you'd see no pressure, as enough air could escape to keep it atmospheric. Eventually though, you would pressurize the cup. That's almost exactly how an engine would work.

Case in point - does anyone remember that awesome writeup where they took the 17 second car and made it run 14's for...i think it was free? They cut all these body panels off, roof, fenders, bodykit, put lightweight rims on (doughnuts)...

They ran it each time they cut off a body panel or modded it. Then, the pulled the airbox (with filter off) so that it was up in the airstream, and duct-taped it in place. Unless I'm remembering completely wrong, they found a .1 or .2 difference in e/t. .2 seconds is more than 4-5 horsepower, more up top where the car needed it. If I can dig up the article, I'll post it.

~Brad

[igo4bmx]

Originally Posted by 2point4DSM

You totally lost me cause now your talking about fluid dynamics inside the passages of a cooling system. I thought we were talking about air flow, and specifically flow through a radiator. My point is that air flow through a radiator is a good example of why your argument is wrong.

I wasn't sure what u were talking about with your radiator comparison, so i thought you were talking about the coolant.
radiators dissapate heat- you're trying to cool down the radiator, which cools down the coolant.
ducting directed toward the radiator works because it helps direct colder air sources to the surface of the cooler. You wouldn't need ducting if the radiator had non obstructed free flowing air...

Ram air, while cannot pressurize air, does have one quality in race cars. if gives a consistant cooler air source compared to the engine bay.... high horsepower/ high performance motors always give off more heat- thus while alot of those cars you'll see ram air setups for both turbo and n/a

most lightly modified motors won't see dramatic engine temps, and infact ram air can cause issues with a/f especially if you daily drive it through the different seasons...
running a stoich ratio in the summer could possibly get you in trouble in the winter when you go lean from colder air.


I must say this is been the first thread in years where there wasn't big flaming between us (Blaise not included )

[piratius]

Ram air, while cannot pressurize air, does have one quality in race cars. if gives a consistant cooler air source compared to the engine bay.... high horsepower/ high performance motors always give off more heat- thus while alot of those cars you'll see ram air setups for both turbo and n/a

most lightly modified motors won't see dramatic engine temps, and infact ram air can cause issues with a/f especially if you daily drive it through the different seasons...
running a stoich ratio in the summer could possibly get you in trouble in the winter when you go lean from colder air.

Your mis-knowledge of modern engine tuning is your weakness

On one of the pages of the SCT Pro Racer handbook talks about how tunes should NEVER need to be changed based on season/temperature changes. The tune should be robust enough that the ECU has enough room to adjust according to the data provided by the Intake Air Sensor Temperature and the Mass Air Meter. Else they'd have to tune the cars richer for the summer from the factory, to get them to run right in the winter. They don't do that, otherwise they wouldn't be able to get them to pass todays stringent emissions in the summertime! Doh!

I know, for a fact, that the PCM in the mustang can make adjustments to the MAF transfer function according to the IAT inputs, because I've watched it do it via my datalogger.

Ram air CAN pressurize the intake tract, however slightly, depending on how it's done. You won't see the extra HP on the dyno, because the car isn't moving fast enough to generate air-pressure in the airbox.

Case in point - why does the Mach 1 Mustang, which is basically a N/A 32-valve cobra motor (same as in 99->01) make more horsepower and put down a faster 1320 e/t time than a cobra with the exact same motor minus the shaker (read: ram air) box?

~Brad