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09-20-2009, 04:34 PM
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Tri-State Aficionado
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09-20-2009, 05:16 PM
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Tri-State Post Whore
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Couple Qs. about your list - Fines - Only businesses with over 25 employees that don't offer insurance will be fined $2500 annually if I'm correct Penalties - Explain Taxes - Might happen, I like the taxing sugary drinks and fatty foods better Penalties for not having insurance - you listed "penalties" already Penalities for having private insurance that the Gov't taxes? **** THAT! -  explainMore taxes - you mentioned this already... might happen End of life counciling - Yeah, help so that you don't leave family members with "what should we do" as a qs. This is a very good thing!! Bureaucrat's deciding what treatment you can receive - Bureaucrats deciding whether or not 2 tests for the same thing should be run, if treating someone when they are going to definitely die anyway is necessary, etc.. The Bureaucrats job will be to consult with the doctor Middle Class Tax Hike - third time you mentioned the tax thing in this list An Individual Mandate - It will be mandatory for everyone to have insurance. If they can't afford insurance insurance will be appointed to them for free. This saves money by having someone not able to "stiff" a bill which we all know raises costs for everyone.. this is a good thing No Privacy - yeah, all doctors and nurses will be able to see your medical records... how dare they, it should be secret haha! A Pay-or-Play Employer Mandate - Explain A Thinly Disguised Public Option - explain Medicaid Expansion - ?
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If they don't make it... Build it! |
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09-21-2009, 07:50 AM
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#783 |
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Tri-State Post Whore
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ABC TO OBAMA: "YOU LIE!!!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg-of...layer_embedded You know it's bad when even liberal ABC can see through Obama's bull ****. And Obama wants to talk about stretching a little, I guess it's only okay when he does it? http://sweetness-light.com/archive/o...lost-insurance |
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09-21-2009, 01:11 PM
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#784 | |
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Tri-State Post Whore
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Lafayette Hill baddlandz
Member #5364
My Ride: 1991 Silvia iTrader: (1)
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09-21-2009, 03:59 PM
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#785 |
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Tri-State Post Whore
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Richboro
Member #543
My Ride: '68 Kaiser M715/ '37 Ford truck/'47 Dodge truck iTrader: (0)
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I have had enough of all politicians at this point. I am tired of everyone that can't function for themselves and look to these politicians(my tax dollars) to function for them. At least things are changing and the true fiscal conservatives are waking up and causing problems for Republicans and Democrats, since they are both the same anyway.
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2012 Honda Accord Touring 1968 Kaiser M715 FrankenJeep 1947 Dodge 1.5 Ton Resto-mod 1937 Ford pick-up 1950 Crosley Farm-o-Road |
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09-21-2009, 04:11 PM
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#786 | |
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Tri-State Post Whore
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Lafayette Hill baddlandz
Member #5364
My Ride: 1991 Silvia iTrader: (1)
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Taxes, Penalties & Fines - Each person would pay up to $3800 per year for failing to get "government-approved coverage". Penalties for underpayments, unacceptable coverage, no coverage, civil penalties etc. There are penalties out the ass in this bill. There will be another fee for insured & self-insured health plans. Just read it for yourself cause there's too much for me to list. Penalties for NOT having insurance & penalties for HAVING insurance- Each person would pay up to $3800 per year for not having any insurance. Everyone is forced into it. Did you know in HR 3200 you will be taxed 2.5% of your gross income if you do not have “acceptable coverage”? And for employers, they face a $100 per employee per day penalty for not providing “acceptable coverage.” The bill will also tax you for foreign helath insurance plans. If you like your current healthcare plan & it doesn't meet the NEW government standards you can't keep it. Obama lied! Its in the bill! End of life counciling - “ObamaCare is all about rationing,” says one of Obama’s own advisers, Martin Feldstein. Feldstein earlier noted that Obama’s health-care plan would harm people with insurance, and massively raise taxes. Bureaucrat's deciding what treatment you can receive - It should be between you & your doctor. NOT the gov't & your doctor. If the government does allow you to get care, in order to control costs government bureaucrats (and not your doctor) will decide what treatment you will get for your condition. If they decide the treatment you need is not "cost-efficient" then you are sore out of luck. You can keep your current doctor IF the government medical boards allow it. Middle Class Tax Hike - The Baucus bill would impose a new sales tax on drugs and medical devices and a new federal excise tax on insurance plans that exceed $8,000 for an individual and $21,000 for a family. These taxes will ultimately be passed down to the consumer, putting many middle class families on the receiving end of a tax hike. An Individual Mandate - In 2013, almost everyone would be required to purchase health insurance that complies with new federal standards. Those making more than three times the poverty level would face a tax penalty of $950 (maxing out at $3,800 per family) and $750 (maxing out at $1,500 per family) for those below 300 percent poverty. This penalty could apply to individuals with incomes as low as $10,831 a year. No Privacy - In order to enforce the tax penalty provisions, the government would be forced to collect detailed health insurance information on Americans, reducing patient privacy and adding significant administrative costs to employers and insurers. A Pay-or-Play Employer Mandate - : Employers with more than 50 employees that don’t offer health coverage would have to pay a penalty for each employee who qualifies for new federal subsidizes under the bill. Inevitably, low-income workers will be hurt the most as employers would simply downsize or cut wages. A Thinly Disguised Public Option - The bill invites indefinite federal control of a “co-op” by providing an unnecessary $6 billion in federal funding for startup loans and grants and it gives broad latitude to the HHS Secretary to regulate co-ops and promote them. The co-op created in this bill is literally an acronym for a new government-run health plan. Medicaid Expansion - Millions of Americans would end up on Medicaid. The current Medicaid program is unsustainable and poorly serves the needy and indigent now. Taxpayers will pick up the new costs of Medicaid, and states will have little flexibility for real reform. This is an "AS-IS" plan. And Americans deserve better! Instead of a one-size-fits-all "AS-IS" federal solution, Congress should let the states take the lead on reform, and reform the tax treatment of health insurance to give all taxpayers tax relief for purchasing private insurance and extend assistance (through spending offsets) to low-income families to purchase private insurance instead of expanding government care.
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09-21-2009, 08:00 PM
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#787 |
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Tri-State Post Whore
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Richboro
Member #543
My Ride: '68 Kaiser M715/ '37 Ford truck/'47 Dodge truck iTrader: (0)
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I still don't quite understand why the folks that feel we 'need' reform are not taking on the project without the high cost of government. If you don't have the balls to shove it up the insurance company's azz, you won't get anywhere. Government 'help' is anything but help. Congress should do a trial run on their own plan before punishing me with it.
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2012 Honda Accord Touring 1968 Kaiser M715 FrankenJeep 1947 Dodge 1.5 Ton Resto-mod 1937 Ford pick-up 1950 Crosley Farm-o-Road |
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10-07-2009, 07:18 PM
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#788 |
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Tri-State Post Whore
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Lafayette Hill baddlandz
Member #5364
My Ride: 1991 Silvia iTrader: (1)
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10 Surprising Facts about American Health Care
Fact No. 1: Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers. Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the United States, and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the U.K. and 457 percent higher in Norway. The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher. Fact No. 2: Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians. Breast cancer mortality is 9 percent higher, prostate cancer is 184 percent higher and colon cancer mortality among men is about 10 percent higher than in the United States. Fact No. 3: Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries. Some 56 percent of Americans who could benefit are taking statins, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease. By comparison, of those patients who could benefit from these drugs, only 36 percent of the Dutch, 29 percent of the Swiss, 26 percent of Germans, 23 percent of Britons and 17 percent of Italians receive them. Fact No. 4: Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians. Take the proportion of the appropriate-age population groups who have received recommended tests for breast, cervical, prostate and colon cancer: • Nine of 10 middle-aged American women (89 percent) have had a mammogram, compared to less than three-fourths of Canadians (72 percent). • Nearly all American women (96 percent) have had a pap smear, compared to less than 90 percent of Canadians. • More than half of American men (54 percent) have had a PSA test, compared to less than 1 in 6 Canadians (16 percent). • Nearly one-third of Americans (30 percent) have had a colonoscopy, compared with less than 1 in 20 Canadians (5 percent). Fact No. 5: Lower income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report "excellent" health compared to Canadian seniors (11.7 percent versus 5.8 percent). Conversely, white Canadian young adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower income Americans to describe their health as "fair or poor." Fact No. 6: Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the U.K. Canadian and British patients wait about twice as long - sometimes more than a year - to see a specialist, to have elective surgery like hip replacements or to get radiation treatment for cancer. All told, 827,429 people are waiting for some type of procedure in Canada. In England, nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment. Fact No. 7: People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. More than 70 percent of German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand and British adults say their health system needs either "fundamental change" or "complete rebuilding." Fact No. 8: Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians. When asked about their own health care instead of the "health care system," more than half of Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared to only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent). Fact No. 9: Americans have much better access to important new technologies like medical imaging than patients in Canada or the U.K. Maligned as a waste by economists and policymaker’s naïve to actual medical practice, an overwhelming majority of leading American physicians identified computerized tomography (CT) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) as the most important medical innovations for improving patient care during the previous decade. [See the table.] The United States has 34 CT scanners per million Americans, compared to 12 in Canada and eight in Britain. The United States has nearly 27 MRI machines per million compared to about 6 per million in Canada and Britain. Fact No. 10: Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations. The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other single developed country. Since the mid-1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to American residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined. In only five of the past 34 years did a scientist living in America not win or share in the prize. Most important recent medical innovations were developed in the United States. Conclusion: Despite serious challenges, such as escalating costs and the uninsured, the U.S. health care system compares favorably to those in other developed countries. “Good healthcare is not a right... it’s a privilege that should be worked for and cherished, not handed out.” The Problem: There is little disagreement that the current health care system needs an overhaul. Today, health care costs continue to rise while people have fewer choices and are less secure that the coverage they have today will be there tomorrow. However, President Obama and leaders in the Congress think the solution is to expand government’s control over health care. Proposals like a new public plan, a federal exchange and health board, and even mandates on employers and individuals to offer or buy government-approved package of benefits, are all intended to give more power to Washington over the financing and delivery of health care. The end result will jeopardize the private coverage Americans have today, limit their health care choices, and cost taxpayers more. "Free" health care isn't really free since we must pay for it with taxes; expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc. The Solution: Instead of a putting Washington in control over personal health care decisions, individuals and families should be the key decision makers in their health care. Proposals that give fair and equal tax treatment for those who buy health coverage on their own, encourage states to develop solutions that will give individuals direct control of the flow of health care dollars, and finance reform by restructuring existing spending, not more spending, are key steps to solving America’s health care problems. Such a system would promote personal ownership; give Americans more health choices, and force health plans and providers to compete directly for their dollars. The end result would lower costs and guarantee better quality. Instead of a one-size-fits-all "AS-IS" federal solution, Congress should also let the states take the lead on reform, and reform the tax treatment of health insurance to give all taxpayers tax relief for purchasing private insurance and extend assistance (through spending offsets) to low-income families to purchase private insurance instead of expanding government care. The Horrifying Truth about What’s in the Bill SEC. 122 - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED SEC. 142 - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC Benefits for you. You have no choice SEC. 201 - Government is creating an HC Exchange to bring private HC plans under Government control SEC. 203 – Government mandates ALL benefit packages for private HC plans in the Exchange and again RATIONS health care SEC. 223 - No company can sue the GOVERNMENT on price fixing! No “judicial review” against Government Monopoly!! SEC. 312 - An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into public option plan and employers MUST pay for HC for part time employees AND their families. NO CHOICE. Or they will be fined 100 per day per employee. SEC. 401 - ANY individual who doesn’t have “acceptable” HC according to Government will be taxed 2.5% of their gross income AND any NONRESIDENT Alien is EXEMPT from individual taxes. (Americans will pay) SEC. 1141 - Federal Government regulates rental and purchase of power driven wheelchairs SEC. 1145 - Cancer patients – welcome to rationing! You may not get that 'specialized' cancer treatment center as an option. SEC. 1151 - The Government will penalize hospitals for what Government deems preventable readmissions. Doctors! Treat a patient during initial admission that results in a readmission? Government will penalize you. SEC. 1156 - PROHIBITION on ownership and investment! Government tells Doctors what and how much they can own SEC. 1177 - Gov't will RESTRICT enrollment of special needs people SEC. 1233 - ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION; The Government has a say in how your life ends! An “advance care planning consultant” will be used frequently as patients health deteriorates. The Government will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order. The Government will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life. A board of beurocrats in Washington will also decide whether or not you’re too old to receive treatment. More Facts: 1. President Obama said that “this was the worst economy since the great depression.” FALSE! It was the worst economy since the Jimmy Carter era. 2. President Obama also said that “you can keep your insurance & the gov't will stay out of it.” FALSE! The bill says that the Gov't will determine whether or not your current health insurance is acceptable for you, even if your happy with it they may take it away. Also there will be taxes on certain insurance policies as stated in the bill. 3. It Requires that all Americans purchase health insurance. If you choose NOT to have any Health Insurance you will be forced on to the Gov't plan, or pay a yearly fine of up to $3800 per year for failing to get "government-approved coverage". If that fine is not payed, the IRS will fine you $25,000 & one year in Prison for not acquiring HC. 4. We don't want the Gov't taking control over 1/6 of our economy 5. No Privacy! They will collect detailed health insurance information on Americans, reducing patient privacy and adding significant administrative costs to employers and insurers. This should be between you & your Dr, NOT Washington 6. Middle Class Tax Hike - The Baucus bill would impose a new sales tax on drugs and medical devices and a new federal excise tax on insurance plans that exceed $8,000 for an individual and $21,000 for a family. These taxes will ultimately be passed down to the consumer, putting many middle class families on the receiving end of a tax hike “This is an "AS-IS" plan. And Americans deserve better!”
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10-07-2009, 09:38 PM
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#789 |
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Tri-State Post Whore
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Richboro
Member #543
My Ride: '68 Kaiser M715/ '37 Ford truck/'47 Dodge truck iTrader: (0)
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^^Summary^^ Americans are too cheap to pay for the great care.
I see no need for reform through the gov't.
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2012 Honda Accord Touring 1968 Kaiser M715 FrankenJeep 1947 Dodge 1.5 Ton Resto-mod 1937 Ford pick-up 1950 Crosley Farm-o-Road |
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10-08-2009, 01:31 AM
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#790 |
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Tri-State Aficionado
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11 Amazing facts that americans don't know about healthcare
1) The united states has the most expensive healthcare system in the world. Our nation spends about $7,300 per person on healthcare every year, nearly 2.5 times the average for developed countries, which is $2,964, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development 2) Another perceived cause of higher health care costs in the United States is that malpractice suits increase the prices charged by doctors and cause them to practice defensive medicine, which occurs when doctors order extra tests or procedures to reduce their risk of being sued. The researchers compared the number of malpractice claims and awards in the United States, Canada, Australia and the United Kingdom and found that while U.S. citizens sue more often, the actual settlements from all four countries were comparable. 3) According to the study authors, defensive medicine probably contributes more to higher health spending than malpractice premiums, but determining which tests and second opinions should be defined as defensive medicine is less clear. The highest estimate for costs of defensive medicine in the United States is only 9 percent and many experts believe this number is too high. (2,3 are from a recent study done byJohns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health) 4) An estimated 2 million babies die within their first 24 hours each year worldwide and the United States has the second worst newborn mortality rate in the developed world. 5) American babies are three times more likely to die in their first month as children born in Japan, and newborn mortality is 2.5 times higher in the United States than in Finland, Iceland or Norway, Save the Children researchers found 6)Only Latvia, with six deaths per 1,000 live births, has a higher death rate for newborns than the United States, which is tied near the bottom of industrialized nations with Hungary, Malta, Poland and Slovakia with five deaths per 1,000 births. (This one has to be a joke! We are next to Latvia!) 7) 1. Canada's health care system is "socialized medicine." False. In socialized medical systems, the doctors work directly for the state. In Canada (and many other countries with universal care), doctors run their own private practices, just like they do in the US. The only difference is that every doctor deals with one insurer, instead of 150 8) Doctors are hurt financially by single-payer health care. Doctors in Canada do make less than their US counterparts. But they also have lower overhead, and usually much better working conditions. 9) Wait times in Canada are horrendous. True and False again -- it depends on which province you live in, and what's wrong with you. Canada's health care system runs on federal guidelines that ensure uniform standards of care, but each territory and province administers its own program. Some provinces don't plan their facilities well enough; in those, you can have waits. Some do better. As a general rule, the farther north you live, the harder it is to get to care, simply because the doctors and hospitals are concentrated in the south. But that's just as true in any rural county in the U.S. 10) You have to wait forever to get a family doctor. False for the vast majority of Canadians, but True for a few. Again, it all depends on where you live. I live in suburban Vancouver, and there are any number of first-rate GPs in my neighborhood who are taking new patients. If you don't have a working relationship with one, but need to see a doctor now, there are 24-hour urgent care clinics in most neighborhoods that will usually get you in and out on the minor stuff in under an hour 11) You don't get to choose your own doctor. Scurrilously False. Somebody, somewhere, is getting paid a lot of money to make this kind of stuff up. The cons love to scare the kids with stories about the government picking your doctor for you, and you don't get a choice. Be afraid! Be very afraid! For the record: Canadians pick their own doctors, just like Americans do. And not only that: since it all pays the same, poor Canadians have exactly the same access to the country's top specialists that rich ones do. The Deloitte Center for Health Solutions surveyed 14,000 people in six countries, asking them to grade their own healthcare system from A to F. The standardized results allow comparisons among all six countries Here's how all six countries fared. If you're expecting to hear that the United States scored worst, then surprise! America was only second worst. Germany got the lowest grades, with just 18 percent of Germans giving their healthcare system an A or B. In the United States, 22 percent of respondents gave the healthcare system an A or B. Switzerland got the highest marks, with 66 percent of people giving the system top grades; France was next, at 63 percent. The survey data are from Deloitte. Also included are cost data from the OECD, to give a sense of who's getting the most satisfaction per healthcare dollar: Canada: Percent rating the healthcare system A or B: 46 percent; D or F: 15 percent; annual healthcare spending per person: $3,895 France: A or B: 63 percent; D or F: 12 percent; spending: $3,601 Germany: A or B: 18 percent; D or F: 44 percent; spending: $3,588 Switzerland: A or B: 66 percent; D or F: 14 percent; spending: $4,417 United Kingdom: A or B: 32 percent; D or F: 20 percent; spending: $2,992 United States: A or B: 22 percent; D or F: 38 percent; spending: $7,290 (In regards to your opinion on the UK heatlh care) The Economist recently derided American critics of Britain's National Health System for creating a bogus bogeyman meant to scare Americans anxious about reform. "Painting an inaccurate picture of the British system . . . helps blind Americans to weaknesses in their own one," the magazine wrote. "The NHS costs half as much per person as the American system costs. Yet it delivers results which are on some plausible measures actually superior. . . . And it does this while avoiding the disgrace that so shames America, of leaving around 46 million people, some 15 percent of its population, without any form of health insurance." But don't bother asking the Brits about their own system. What do they know? Facts that was exluded from the post "10 surprising facts about american healthcare" 1) We find a somewhat higher incidence of chronic health conditions in the U.S. 2) In Finland, France, Spain and Sweden, about 73% of breast cancer patients were cured, while the proportion was less than 60% in Czech Republic, Poland and Slovenia. 3) Why isn't prostate or lung cancer listed in your ten amazing facts? You are aware those are the top two cancers amoung males in the US, making them the most common as "fact # 1" says. (CDC). For women it is breast cancer, but it's not higher then prostate cancer. There is more I was only on their 6th source, but they pretty much put in there everything you want to hear. And streched the truth as far as possible without becoming a lie. 6. Middle Class Tax Hike - The Baucus bill would impose a new sales tax on drugs and medical devices and a new federal excise tax on insurance plans that exceed $8,000 for an individual and $21,000 for a family. These taxes will ultimately be passed down to the consumer, putting many middle class families on the receiving end of a tax hike That is not a tax, that is the free market(a.k.a "The big guy s**ttin on the little guy") that you want the Gov't to stay out of. 5.No Privacy! They will collect detailed health insurance information on Americans Do you want to guess where all those statictics you just posted came from? So if we have privacy now, that means everything you just posted is a false. So take your pick. 1. President Obama said that “this was the worst economy since the great depression.” FALSE! It was the worst economy since the Jimmy Carter era That all depends on the criteria you are using to classify "worst". 
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10-08-2009, 01:32 AM
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#791 | |
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Tri-State Aficionado
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10-08-2009, 06:16 AM
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#794 | |
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Tri-State Post Whore
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Richboro
Member #543
My Ride: '68 Kaiser M715/ '37 Ford truck/'47 Dodge truck iTrader: (0)
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You are one of the cheap f'rs that I speak of. You don't want to pay for life saving services, the same life saving services that the folks from the more affordable countries come here for. Stay away from my tax dollars. Thanks.
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2012 Honda Accord Touring 1968 Kaiser M715 FrankenJeep 1947 Dodge 1.5 Ton Resto-mod 1937 Ford pick-up 1950 Crosley Farm-o-Road |
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10-08-2009, 09:51 AM
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#795 | |
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Tri-State Aficionado
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And those folks you talk about are mostly myths. |
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10-08-2009, 10:17 AM
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#796 | |
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Tri-State Addict
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2008 BMW ///M3 Coupe: Alpine White on Extended Fox Red Novillo Leather Factory Options: Premium Package : M-DCT : 19" Alloys : Technology Package : Bi-Xenon : Heated Seats : EDC : Premium Audio : iPod/USB Adapter Modifications: APE Performance S65B40 Air Filter : Fabspeed X-pipe : Remus Race Muffler |
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10-08-2009, 11:29 AM
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#797 | |
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TST Ruined My Life!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Philadelphia
Member #2029
My Ride: "Honey Badger" Turbo Miata iTrader: (8)
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2004 MAZDASPEED MX-5 : 328whp / 308wtq / 2500lbs 2012 Toyota Prius 2 : Daily Driver |
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10-08-2009, 01:38 PM
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#798 | |
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Tri-State Post Whore
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Lafayette Hill baddlandz
Member #5364
My Ride: 1991 Silvia iTrader: (1)
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Law, do you have anything to contribute to this thread? I'd love to hear what you gotta say man.
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10-08-2009, 02:19 PM
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#799 |
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Tri-State Training Wheels
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It was in correlation with the Dick Cheney hunting incident. Also yes i do. Those cheap Americans that poolmike are actually talking about are the poor and lower class who in most cases CAN'T get health insurance. The lower class is actually getting decimated thanks not having health care and the econemy. So are the middle class thanks to the econemy and the housing market. Look at how many Americans have lost thier jobs and can't afford to get health care and have to take lower paying jobs or no jobs at all. Also i belive just looking to Canada as a example of health care reform is bad idea as there are plenty of other places where its very good and actually better than our current plan ex. Sweden and thier hybrid system.
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10-08-2009, 03:37 PM
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#800 | |
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Tri-State Post Whore
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Richboro
Member #543
My Ride: '68 Kaiser M715/ '37 Ford truck/'47 Dodge truck iTrader: (0)
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If the low and middle class can't afford insurance, what makes you think the gov't will help them out? The gov't option is supposed to be user funded, and supplemented by the fines inflicted on people like myself who are smart enough to not by into any bullcrap insurance plan.
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2012 Honda Accord Touring 1968 Kaiser M715 FrankenJeep 1947 Dodge 1.5 Ton Resto-mod 1937 Ford pick-up 1950 Crosley Farm-o-Road |
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