RED ROBIN Meets are Cancelled. Freshworks meet is ON!

[DC Hunny5]

Originally Posted by S4toSTI

Jspek is the bf lol and easy.

the bf of me, not steph

[Piro]

Originally Posted by Dave

true story, had chrysler not lent out hands at several occasions there wouldnt BE a mitsubishi, much less an evo. and chryslers probably got more expirience with turbo fours than ANY other manufacturer

AAAHHHH Wrong!!! Chrysler aproached Mitsu for help with their turbo 4's, remember their ugly omni, well? Back in the early 80's they needed a inexpencive engine and they got it from mitsu and fitted it to their platform,
from there came later the Colt/Champ models. 1.6L 4 in line that was a mitsu engine design but did not well in the US, the much bigger K cars Aries/Relliant did better, then came the Caravan/Voyager ther the same engines as the mitsus counterparts in japan but de-tuned for the US. The truth is Chrysler had been and will be sub-par with many manufacturers simply because of their targeted demografics. If you are going to buy a good car you don't look at Ford, GM, or much less Chrysler, you look at Toyota(Lexus), Nissan(Infinity),or Honda(Acura) at a higher end, Porche or BMW, and if you think that Mercedes is a Chrysler you must be tripping on mayor dope, the only thing that they are doing to Mercedez is killing the company!

BTW Mitsu not only builds cars, that is only a small branch, they are conglomerate, they range from semiconductors, Flat-panels, to Rocket engines, Ships, jet-airplanes, Constrution equipment and more!! Yes Chrysler is a very big corporation but it had more help from other companies that they care to admit and the only thing that saved the company here in the US was the minivan market. Back in the 70's they were doing so bad that they were selling their own cars to them self and storing them on a lot in Canada to make their numbers look better for the Chairholders, but they were in the red ink. but Iacocca came to the picture got a loan from the gov. and saved them!

[S4toSTI]

Originally Posted by DC Hunny5

the bf of me, not steph

Really???

[DC Hunny5]

Originally Posted by S4toSTI

Really???

yeah...

[jspek]

this thread is now a tranny.

[WhiteXFire]

Originally Posted by Piro

AAAHHHH Wrong!!! Chrysler aproached Mitsu for help with their turbo 4's, remember their ugly omni, well? Back in the early 80's they needed a inexpencive engine and they got it from mitsu and fitted it to their platform,
from there came later the Colt/Champ models. 1.6L 4 in line that was a mitsu engine design but did not well in the US, the much bigger K cars Aries/Relliant did better, then came the Caravan/Voyager ther the same engines as the mitsus counterparts in japan but de-tuned for the US. The truth is Chrysler had been and will be sub-par with many manufacturers simply because of their targeted demografics. If you are going to buy a good car you don't look at Ford, GM, or much less Chrysler, you look at Toyota(Lexus), Nissan(Infinity),or Honda(Acura) at a higher end, Porche or BMW, and if you think that Mercedes is a Chrysler you must be tripping on mayor dope, the only thing that they are doing to Mercedez is killing the company!

BTW Mitsu not only builds cars, that is only a small branch, they are conglomerate, they range from semiconductors, Flat-panels, to Rocket engines, Ships, jet-airplanes, Constrution equipment and more!! Yes Chrysler is a very big corporation but it had more help from other companies that they care to admit and the only thing that saved the company here in the US was the minivan market. Back in the 70's they were doing so bad that they were selling their own cars to them self and storing them on a lot in Canada to make thei numbers look better for the Chairholders, but they were in the red ink. but Iacocca came to the picture got a loan from the gov. and saved them!

You forgot tuna!

[Buster]

Piro kicks ass, and stocks great wiper blades!

[Piro]

And Yes they are in the food industry!!

Got your wiper blades too!

[Buster]

sweet, now tell the black evo ix im not worth his gas lol.

[lancerxoz]

yo Piro is my boy!! thanks for the save haha. i dont really care about the garbage truck joke, no harsh feelings

[lancerxoz]

Originally Posted by MissDSM

Yes youre right, chill on my girl lol

i can hold my own lil woman, besides piro saved my a**

[Piro]

Well is a fact that US car manufacturers are going down the way of the dodo.
But dont get me wrong I love a good muscle car. the last time that Detroit did a car llike that i was in pampers, and the Corvette or vipers don't count,
The corvette first engineer was a russian imigrant to Germany!he is the one who put the v8 on the vette. The viper is an off shot from Lamborghini, from them came the v10 using some castings from the chrysler trucks.

The last real Muscle cars were from the 60's era, but that is my opinion.

[D Money]

Glad I didn't go, all drama like usual. Holla at cha nephew son.

Plus, my mom said I can't go anymore.

[Buster]

D it was way fun depending on where you were ditting really. And the trip back and forth from barnes was fun as hell. I still dont understand what happend to john at one point though.

[D Money]

I dunno, I don't go to meets anymore.

[ill-luzion]

Originally Posted by Buster

sweet, now tell the black evo ix im not worth his gas lol.

You got a 12 second car! It would be a good race. haha

[teh DIRT]

Originally Posted by NOPSTNS

see i knew u and me would have a connection, whos ur bf? does he evr like....skip the meets?????????

nope, started them three years ago with like 4 dudes and won't stop going anytime soon. I was looking for you though, wanted to say hello.

Originally Posted by MissDSM

If he pulls that **** again...

the problem was that I thought to much into it. o well.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Piro

AAAHHHH Wrong!!! Chrysler aproached Mitsu for help with their turbo 4's, remember their ugly omni, well? Back in the early 80's they needed a inexpencive engine and they got it from mitsu and fitted it to their platform,
from there came later the Colt/Champ models. 1.6L 4 in line that was a mitsu engine design but did not well in the US, the much bigger K cars Aries/Relliant did better, then came the Caravan/Voyager ther the same engines as the mitsus counterparts in japan but de-tuned for the US. The truth is Chrysler had been and will be sub-par with many manufacturers simply because of their targeted demografics. If you are going to buy a good car you don't look at Ford, GM, or much less Chrysler, you look at Toyota(Lexus), Nissan(Infinity),or Honda(Acura) at a higher end, Porche or BMW, and if you think that Mercedes is a Chrysler you must be tripping on mayor dope, the only thing that they are doing to Mercedez is killing the company!

BTW Mitsu not only builds cars, that is only a small branch, they are conglomerate, they range from semiconductors, Flat-panels, to Rocket engines, Ships, jet-airplanes, Constrution equipment and more!! Yes Chrysler is a very big corporation but it had more help from other companies that they care to admit and the only thing that saved the company here in the US was the minivan market. Back in the 70's they were doing so bad that they were selling their own cars to them self and storing them on a lot in Canada to make their numbers look better for the Chairholders, but they were in the red ink. but Iacocca came to the picture got a loan from the gov. and saved them!

ahh chrysler asked mitsubishi for help with turbo fours? that must be why the daytona and the cordia both debuted in 83' with turbochargers right? that must be why chrysler turbos came with a number of increasingly advanced multiport fuel injection setups while mitsu kept plodding along with throttle body injection on the 2.6 in their starion (an engine i might note that is known for its general weakness and difficulty to tune) other portions of your post were complete and total fiction as well, the omni frame has nothing to do with japan whatsoever. in fact it draws direct lineage from the french simca, early engines were volkswagon 1.7s which were quickly phased out when the 2.2s and 2.5s came out which btw have direct lineage to the slant sixes NOT the afformentioned weak and inneffectual 2.6. YES chrysler sold mitsubishi cars, if you go back and actually read my original post you'd see that, but that had a whole lot less to do with chrysler couldnt do it and a lot more to do with chrysler was trying to establish mitsu as a brand in the united states. and my technology comment? well, if you look past the glaringly divergent technology in 83 and up theres a few other interesting advancements that were made, such as the adoption of variable vane turbochargers in 89 (for those of you at home keeping score thats SEVENTEEN YEARS before porsche got around to doing it) there were also prototype cvt and awd systems in the works that never made production.

[Dave]

The Chrysler 2.2/2.5 liter four cylinder engine- A short history

Presented to the Shelby-Dodge club at Ann Arbor Michigan July 12, 2000 by Peter Badore D.C.V.I.P.


Corporate Strategy and Governmental Requirements

1. Chrysler's product strategy for the 1960s and 1970s does not require a US designed and manufactured four cylinder engine.

2. Chrysler imports small cars from Europe and Japan to sell against Ford and GM made small cars.

3. The 1974 Energy and Policy Act establishes a Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) law forcing US car makers to build small cars in the United States.

4. Chrysler responds by building a US version of the Chrysler France Horizon with a bought out long block engine from VW.

5. Chrysler buys VW 1.71 four cylinder for five years for the L-body cars-- Omni, Horizon, Charger and Turismo.

6. Chrysler engineers its own fuel, ignition and exhaust emission system for the German made 1.7 liter engine.


Chrysler Plans Its Own Four Cylinder Engine

7. The CAFE law requires a graduated increasingly more fuel efficient passenger car fleet.

8. Chrysler decides to become the most fuel efficient US car company.

9. All new Chrysler cars are to be front wheel drive and four cylinder powered.

10. Chrysler designs the 2.21 engine for the 1981 model year K-body and plans to replace the VW 1.71 engine in the L-body.


Chrysler 2.21 Design Features

11. Because of the long experience with the VW 1.71 engine Chrysler "models" many features of the 2.21 engine from the VW 1.7 engine including material choices for the cylinder head (aluminum) and cylinder block (cast iron) location of the camshaft, in-line valve arrangement, offset water pump housing, intake and exhaust manifold on the same side of the head and located to the rear of the vehicle.

12. With a need to replace the VW engine the L-body the 2.21 engine is made as short as possible with siamesed cylinder bores (no water circulates between the cylinders except for the cross drilling in the 2.21 turbo II and 2.51 turbo).

13. The cylinder bore diameter was set at 87.5 mm (3.44") and was never changed.

14. The 2.21 is designed by the former 340 V8 engine designers and was made very robust in certain areas particularly the crankshaft and cylinder block. The crank bearing diameters are very generous at 50 and 60 millimeters. Other areas needed several design changes and many model years to be improved-- especially cylinder head gaskets and oil leaks.


Manufacturing Strategy, Locations and Performance Versions.

15. Because of the fuel efficiency strategy described in item 8 above Chrysler made very large capital investments in high volume engine machining equipment.

16. The Trenton engine plant in Trenton, Michigan (south of Detroit) had three complete block and head machining lines that were fully automated. The Saltillo Engine plant in Neuvo Leon, Mexico had one block and head line slightly less automated. Total investment for the 2.21 and 2.5 engines probably reached over one billion dollars although not recorded by Chrysler on a lifetime basis.

17. Because of the large commitment to four cylinder engines, Chrysler had to use the 2.21 in many applications including minivans and pickup trucks. Of interest to Shelby Dodge owners are the numerous performance versions of the 2.2 and 2.51 turbocharged engines produced starting with the 1984 model year and ending with 1993 model year. The 2.2 turbo and 2.51 turbo are described in two SAE papers 840252 & 900852. The highest performance 2.21 engine produced in volume was the intercooled 2.21 turbo II engine.

18. Although Chrysler does not produce the 2.21 or 2.51 engine today, the 2.21 is alive and well in the Peoples Republic of China. Chrysler licensed the First Auto Works (FAW) of Changchun, PRC to build the 2.21 for the domestic market of China. FAW produced its first 2.21 engine in 1990 and is still in production today.

Peter Badore 7-11-00

Objectives

1) Significantly improve 2.2 engine output wile maintaining good gas mileage.

2) Take advantage of premium grade fuels while still running well on lower octane's.

3) Meet existing durability criteria.

4) Maintain maximum commonality with existing 2.2 in design and manufacture.

5) No unique service requirements.

New and redesigned components

Cylinder block-

Two bosses had to be added to existing casting to accommodate the turbocharger installation; One was the oil drainback at rear of the casting, the other was the mounting point for the intermediate shaft bearing bracket for the equal length driveshafts. Strengthening ribs were also added between the freeze plug locations for future power increases. It also allowed Chrysler to cast the bore walls thinner saving .6 pounds in the over casting.

Bearings-

Bi-metal bearings were chosen and tolerances were tightened up to better control oil pressure.

Cylinder head gasket-

Steel core asbestos construction with mild steel rings around the cylinder bores. Testing showed that the bore sealing rings had to be made thicker for better sealing and this improvement was passed on to the naturally aspirated engines as well.

Cylinder head cover-

New die cast aluminum cover & filler cap was done to enhance underhood appearance. An internal oil baffle was used doing away with the need of an separate external assembly.

Pistons-

8.1:1 ratio was used as an aid to controlling detonation when low octane fuel was used. The lower ratio allowed sufficient control of detonation without resorting to excessive spark retard which would resulted in exhaust temperatures exceeding 1652F which was the maximum limit for acceptable turbine housing durability. Cast and forged pistons were tested and cast were found to provide reasonable durability without the high cost of forged casting. The shape of the piston was carefully designed to minimize engine noise during cold startup and operation. This was critical because the detonation sensor can "hear" piston noise in certain rpm ranges and allowances in the engine control software had to be made under these conditions. Piston pin contact area was made 48% larger due to higher combustion pressures generated by turbocharger and oiling slots were also incorporated into the pin bore to prevent scuffing. Rings were similar to N/A rings except for a full face chrome treatment to prevent wear and a slight change in ring profile.

Camshaft-

A cam was chosen for good low speed, low boost operation to minimize lag effects.

Valvegear-

Intake and exhaust valves were upgraded to better materials- Intake valve used SIL-1 instead of 1541 steel and the exhaust valve used a Inconel 751 head vs. 21-2N. Valve spring pressures were upgraded to 104 lbs closed & 175 lbs open which were excess of what was needed for 6650 engine shut off.

Lubrication system-

1) Oil pressure relief spring was increased 10 psi.
2) Bearing tolerances were tightened.
3) 5 quarts oil specified helped lower oil temperatures.
4) Common oil pump for Turbo and N/A engines could now be used reducing parts numbers.

Intake-

New sand cast aluminum intake manifold with small plenum volume and short 94 mm runners was chosen for compact installation and good throttle response.

Exhaust manifold-

Made of high silicon nodular cast iron with no branch pairing like the N/A manifold for compact installation. It was 1.5 mm thicker then N/A manifold to pass durability testing and tie bars between runners were tried and discontinued due to runner warping problems.

EGR system-

It had one and was needed at the time and the turbo compressor housing wasn't damaged by where it was located.

Turbocharger-

Garrett model number: TB0335 was selected with several unique revisions for use in Chryslers 2.2 engine. Specs are as follows: 50 trim compressor in .42 A/R housing, 69 trim turbine with .48 housing. With this combination they were nearly able to deliver full boost by 2000 rpm. (7.2 psi)

Extensive time was spent on turbocharger durability testing and several methods were tried including an air cooled housing before water cooling was selected. While the finned housing was good for a modest 90F temperature drop the water cooled center section was good for 351F! Another item that was changed to increase durability was the adoption of aluminum turbo bearings. One side benefit of using the engine coolant to cool the turbo housing was a modest reduction in oil crankcase temperatures which allowed the elimination of a planned oil cooler saving money, weight & complexity.

Engine control system

Throttle body-

42 mm blow through unit located upstream of the compressor due to packaging constraints incorporating AIS, TPS and various vacuum nipples. There was one problem with using this arrangement- High intake manifold air temperature due to recompression of the air charge BUT it also allowed for a minimum of turbo lag.

Logic Module-

Based on Motorola 6801U4 microprocessor with 6K ROM, 2K external PROM and 192 byte of RAM.

Fuel system-

MPI system using 269 cc.min injectors operating at 55 psi up to 6650 rpm. Injectors are batch fired in 2 pairs- cylinders 1 & 2 and cylinders 3 & 4. This also made it easy to selectively enrichen cylinders 3 & 4 because they ran leaner due to their proximity to the intake manifold air entrance.

Fuel Scheduling-

The basic injector pulsewidth is based on speed density principle- Engine RPM x MAP x Intake charge temp. Open loop pulsewidth considers two fundamental engine breathing characteristics- airflow variation with map and variation of volumetric efficiency with engine speed. pulsewidth is determined simply by multiplying the Map based value by the volumetric efficiency factor. In the software architecture these values are determined by functional calculation rather than interpolation of look up tables. Additional corrections are also used for charge air temperature, cold start, battery voltage and acceleration enrichment. One of the problems of turbo engines is it's need for overfueling at high engine loads as a means for controlling exhaust gas temperatures so as not to exceed the maximum allowed component spec of 1650F. Fuel-air ratios .095-1.0 volts are required to satisfy this requirement. Note that the optimum ration for maximum power is significantly leaner then .095 typically .075-.080 A lot of time was spent finding a proper balance between acceptable fuel economy and optimum mixture for durability of exhaust components and pistons.

Detonation sensor-

A narrow band piezoelectric accelerometer is mounted in the intake manifold which is tuned to detect noise in the 6.15 kHz range. The computer compares the sensors output with the known frequencies that the engine is know to vibrate at. If the computer determines what it is detecting isn't normal background noise it starts retarding the timing in 4.2 degree increments (up to a maximum of 14.7 degrees) till the knocking ceases. This allows the 2.2 engine to operate on lower octane gasoline without engine damage.

Conclusion-

1) Improved output of 2.2 engine.

2) With redesign of key base engine components all durability criteria met.

3) Detonation sensor system allows outstanding performance with hi-octane fuel and still allow satisfactory operation with normal grades.

4) With water-cooled centersection no unusual idle time nor maintenance is required.

5) Maximum commonality between other Chrysler 4-cylinders.

Why were turbo's whacked?

It was the EPA. They were threatening to have the engines run stoich at WOT for some period of time. A turbo engine won't live under those conditions without exotic materials. So when developing the new line of engines turbos were not part of the plan. Mexico went and did their own but they don't have the EPA to contend with making threatening to make outrageous rules.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Piro

Well is a fact that US car manufacturers are going down the way of the dodo.
But dont get me wrong I love a good muscle car. the last time that Detroit did a car llike that i was in pampers, and the Corvette or vipers don't count,
The corvette first engineer was a russian imigrant to Germany!he is the one who put the v8 on the vette. The viper is an off shot from Lamborghini, from them came the v10 using some castings from the chrysler trucks.

The last real Muscle cars were from the 60's era, but that is my opinion.

oh my god where do you get this stuff? look this ones EASY to debunk. whens the last time lamborghini made a PUSHROD engine? how bout never? the viper's v10 is based on the old LA 360s

here read have fun, dont play with matches
http://www.allpar.com/model/viphist.htm
now then back on topic