DRIFTING...Fill Me In...

[Raven18940]

Originally Posted by Wiisass

If your tires are sliding, you aren't using them to the fullest. And you have to know the difference between tire slip angle and body slip angle, they aren't the same.

Since your fwd, you won't be really losing any power with the rear tires sliding, but you'll increase be increasing the amount of friction fighting the cars accelerating. Try driving without getting loose at all and time yourself. You might feel and look slower but your times will probably be faster. Or you could drive the same way and tune your suspension to help keep the rear from sliding.

It's been pointed out to me that you probably know more about this than I do, which is cool. Don't suppose you know where I can read more about this so I can learn more.

The problem with my car is it's really understeery as standard. I've fitted Eibach springs and Bilstein dampers which helped a lot, but ultimately the only way to get things neutral is to drag the brakes a bit, push the front tires into the road with all the weight I can muster without overwhelming the tires with braking force. Then comes the ECU which is too smart for itself, if I try to left foot brake it thinks I have fat feet and I'm hitting the gas and brake at the same time by mistake and it cuts boost. So then I have to turn in at a silly speed so I can make it to the apex at a good speed and that causes the inside rear tire to start losing traction and the ABS to try and sort it.

Just curious what you'd think about mounting a stiffer rear ARB, I have a 17mm and the only other one I can get is 22mm.

Originally Posted by moorefire

I was joking, because thats what drifting is, a big joke, but its crazy fun.

If you need an explination about why people drift then you're never gonna get it...

I get it, I just don't care much for it any more. I have more fun trying to create as much lateral G as possible and then unleashing my mountain of torque. I suppose there's a drifter still in me somewhere or I wouldn't be kicking my inside rear tire out. :P

[TurboTagTeam]

Originally Posted by moorefire

You don't ignore these rules at all when drifting. Unless you're a bad drifter.

How's that. You sliding around driving significantly slower than you would I'f you took the proper angle/braking point of a turn.

[Wiisass]

It's not exactly the same, but at the braking point if your racing, when drifting you would initiate, maybe even earlier, the rest is the same. When drifting you take the right line, you clip the apex, you accelerate out of the turn and set your self up for the next one. If you ignore the fact that in one situation your sliding and in another your gripping, it's really not that much different.

And I don't get what you said in that first post.

Originally Posted by TurboTagTeam

I'm a road racer. I brake first then accelerate through a corner, I rev-match to keep the flywheel moving at the same speed of the gear I am downshifting into, I turn in at the apex of a turn. I set my car up to be balanced and equal through cornering.

It sounds like you slow down too much in the beginning. Then have to accelerate to get to the right speed to take the turn. And turning in at the apex? I mean I think I know what you meant to say, but turning in at the apex is a little late. And not to get further off topic, and I'm not attacking you so don't get all defensive, but how do you have your car setup? Be specific, I'm curious.

Oh well, like Will keeps saying, drifting is just fun. It's not the fastest way to drive, it is a good lesson in car control though.

Originally Posted by raven18940

It's been pointed out to me that you probably know more about this than I do, which is cool. Don't suppose you know where I can read more about this so I can learn more.

The problem with my car is it's really understeery as standard. I've fitted Eibach springs and Bilstein dampers which helped a lot, but ultimately the only way to get things neutral is to drag the brakes a bit, push the front tires into the road with all the weight I can muster without overwhelming the tires with braking force. Then comes the ECU which is too smart for itself, if I try to left foot brake it thinks I have fat feet and I'm hitting the gas and brake at the same time by mistake and it cuts boost. So then I have to turn in at a silly speed so I can make it to the apex at a good speed and that causes the inside rear tire to start losing traction and the ABS to try and sort it.

Just curious what you'd think about mounting a stiffer rear ARB, I have a 17mm and the only other one I can get is 22mm.

If you want to read more, you could check out my website, it's in my sig. It's just a forum because I suck at making websites, but I've posted a lot of stuff in there that's real informative and very technical. If you look in the suspension section, there's a link in the thread about Mark Ortiz to the physics of racing paper. I think it's a little simpler explanation of a lot of this stuff and a good read. If you really want to get into and buy a book, then look at Race Car Vehicle Dynamics.

About the driving, it just sounds like the electronics in your car are holding you back. But let me ask you, what's your reasoning for braking and accelerating at the same time? I mean I'm assuming that's whats happening when your left foot braking and your computer shuts things down. I mean unless it's rally, I don't see much point in it, especially with a front wheel drive car. If you have to continue doing this, what about somehow disabling this before getting out on the track. But are you doing this on the track or is this just from street driving?

Based on what your saying, and no offensive to you, but I would try a slightly different driving style. Try taking a different line, try trail braking, try braking late and just to the point you would want to take the turn and then coast through the turn. I know that last one doesn't sound as fast, but if you're entering the turn at the speed you would take it at max lateral acceleration in a steady state situation you'll be taking the corner as fast as you can without losing traction. You need decent dampers for something like this to allow the car to take set quicker. If your dampers are too soft and the car will take longer to settle doing this might not work. I don't know, but trying different things might help you out in this situation.

About the rear sway bar. Adding it will adjust the lateral load transfer distribution. Basically, with a stiffer rear bar the car will be less likely to understeer than before, and more likely to oversteer. But then again, it sounds like your having trouble with understeer and oversteer. So I don't know what to tell you. The sway bar will have the most effect during a steady state turn, basically a skid pad type of thing. In most situations, steady state really doesn't happen, but for analysis, you can consider it. So if the car is understeering during steady state stuff then you could try a stiffer rear bar. If your having understeer issues at turn entry and you might want to consider your dampers a little more.

Also, what type of alignment are you running? You could try something there. Maybe try a little more agressive camber, a little toe out in the front, mess around with caster a little. There's a lot you can do.

If you want me to be more specific, be real specific about your problem. Like when is it happening, at the entry, middle, exit? What are you doing, meaning braking, turning, accelerating, nothing, etc? Could the understeer or oversteer be driver induced or car induced? All kinds of stuff like this would really help to diagnose the problem, the only other way would to be either riding with you or watching you.

[Raven18940]

Originally Posted by Wiisass

About the driving, it just sounds like the electronics in your car are holding you back. But let me ask you, what's your reasoning for braking and accelerating at the same time? I mean I'm assuming that's whats happening when your left foot braking and your computer shuts things down. I mean unless it's rally, I don't see much point in it, especially with a front wheel drive car. If you have to continue doing this, what about somehow disabling this before getting out on the track. But are you doing this on the track or is this just from street driving?

Ok, so left foot braking = not faster on the pavement. I'd read some about and I've been trying it out, though I didn't think it was really faster.

Originally Posted by Wiisass

Based on what your saying, and no offensive to you, but I would try a slightly different driving style. Try taking a different line, try trail braking, try braking late and just to the point you would want to take the turn and then coast through the turn. I know that last one doesn't sound as fast, but if you're entering the turn at the speed you would take it at max lateral acceleration in a steady state situation you'll be taking the corner as fast as you can without losing traction. You need decent dampers for something like this to allow the car to take set quicker. If your dampers are too soft and the car will take longer to settle doing this might not work. I don't know, but trying different things might help you out in this situation.

Can't modify the dampers or springs any more, it's a street driven vehicle and I like my teeth in my skull. I don't understand the braking and then coasting, won't I lose speed? Last time I was in physics class I seem to remember that turning requires acceleration to maintain it. I'll try driving it gently. Also, what exactly is trail braking, I've heard it thrown around a lot but haven't gotten a good explaination.

Originally Posted by Wiisass

Also, what type of alignment are you running? You could try something there. Maybe try a little more agressive camber, a little toe out in the front, mess around with caster a little. There's a lot you can do.

This is a level of modding I don't wanna get into. I was thinking about reducing the rear camber some for a while (there's 2 degrees of it). Though if I stiffen the rear ARB I won't do that and instead get a stiffer front ARB to match. The front camber is about 1.5 degrees which I think is pretty aggressive without being silly.

Originally Posted by Wiisass

If you want me to be more specific, be real specific about your problem. Like when is it happening, at the entry, middle, exit? What are you doing, meaning braking, turning, accelerating, nothing, etc? Could the understeer or oversteer be driver induced or car induced? All kinds of stuff like this would really help to diagnose the problem, the only other way would to be either riding with you or watching you.

I want it to go faster. I don't know man, I'll get back to you, I have too much to think aobut now.

*stumbles to bed very confused*

[Wiisass]

When I meant braking and coasting, it's more of a braking and then continue steady state driving. This would be constant throttle, constant steer.

Trail braking is braking later and into the turn more than you would normally. It usually sets you up for a later apex. So instead of braking down to the speed you would want to take the turn at and then turning in. You would be braking and turning at the same time.

About your sways, I really can't make a suggestion I would feel comfortable with, without knowing more. And plus with the ambiguity that sway bar companies rate their parts at, it would be hard to suggest something. But if you really think it would help, try and look into bars that are adjustable, it should help you dial in the car a little better.

I was just thinking about this and what I just told the guy in the other thread. I saw in the other thread that your car is pretty stock. And since it's a daily, sway bars probably wouldn't hurt. I would just be real careful when mixing and matching. I would like to think that within a company, sway bars are designed to work well with one another, for example, the front bar and rear bars both increase the roll rate the same percentage. As compared to having a front bar 3x stiffer than stock and a rear bar 1.5x stiffer. But I don't know if that assumption is valid, I would like to think it is, but I can't be sure.

[Raven18940]

Originally Posted by Wiisass

About your sways, I really can't make a suggestion I would feel comfortable with, without knowing more. And plus with the ambiguity that sway bar companies rate their parts at, it would be hard to suggest something. But if you really think it would help, try and look into bars that are adjustable, it should help you dial in the car a little better.

I would love an adjustable bar, but none exist. This is the sad part of being a 9-5 owner, parts are hard to come by. The 22mm rear bar is a recent discovery, before it there was just the standard 17mm that came on the car. I take some comfort in the fact that it was designed and built by a 9-5 owner, but I'm iffy about it still.