Hawaii to install anti-drifting roads

[redtoprps13]

Originally Posted by 92sileighty

this might be the first win win "argument" on tristate, calls for a drink in my book

with boobies

[jpalamar]

Now I'm sad I got wider tires... well not really because my 60' got better.

[sean3]

Originally Posted by 92sileighty

want his email? lols i'm not gonna argue with what i was taught and proved correct in class. but from your comments, i think you guys are missing the point. with the same coefficient of friction on the tires, it doesn't matter if they are different size. While people run bigger tires, they also run a different grip rating (coefficient of friction) which would mean better/worse grip. in our case, better. you simpy stated run a bigger tire, and i simply stated that idea was worthless. but if you said bigger tires, different coefficient of friction rating, then you would be correct. but still, its crazy how a bigger tire with the same rating makes no difference in grip.

Coefficient of friction is determined by the tire compound, not the width. In perfect theory, a narrow tire and a wide tire would be the same because the contact patch is the same size. But what if the tire is so narrow that there can not physically be enough rubber on the ground for the contact patch to fill? Now you're loading the sidewalls and a wider tire would help.

[supraghost]

skinnier tires are lighter so it takes less torque to spin them. woot. skinnier tires for driftin!

[jpalamar]

Originally Posted by supraghost

skinnier tires are lighter so it takes less torque to spin them. woot. skinnier tires for driftin!

Essentially, they made it cheaper to drift then?!!?

[ScubaSteve]

Originally Posted by sean3

Coefficient of friction is determined by the tire compound, not the width. In perfect theory, a narrow tire and a wide tire would be the same because the contact patch is the same size. But what if the tire is so narrow that there can not physically be enough rubber on the ground for the contact patch to fill? Now you're loading the sidewalls and a wider tire would help.

A narrow and wide tire would be the same how? You can have the same exact coefficient of friction but that doesn't mean the frictional force is the same. Someone already said it earlier, friction and traction are not the same.

[redtoprps13]

Originally Posted by sean3

Coefficient of friction is determined by the tire compound, not the width. In perfect theory, a narrow tire and a wide tire would be the same because the contact patch is the same size. But what if the tire is so narrow that there can not physically be enough rubber on the ground for the contact patch to fill? Now you're loading the sidewalls and a wider tire would help.

how is contact patch the same as a wider tire as it is on a narrower tire....
go make 800 hp with your mustang.....then go drive around and tell me if an 11 inch wide tire has less traction than a 7 inch wide tire. grip rating is not the same as actual traction......

that's like saying t25g turbo at 10psi is pushing the same volume of air as a gt35r at 10 psi because they are both at 10psi.

lol at 300lbs of tq guy telling 4cyl guy that wider tires aren't going to have more traction

[92sileighty]

pretty sure this discussion ended at post 40

[ScubaSteve]

A wider tire has more surface area, are you disagreeing with that? Try pushing two blocks of equal mass and different surface area and see how frictional forces work.

[supraghost]

yeah i dont understand the part about a wider tire having the same contact patch.


and i understand a smaller contact patch with the same mass will have a higher psi, making the friction greater...

i just get this to work out in my brain. can someone explain the heat benifit thing?



i was thinking of it like this. lets blow this up super big and say the grip stuff they put down is actually little spikes sticking up. a large tire will have thousands of spikes sticking into it. a tiny little tire will have one spike in it (obviously exagerating).... so obviously the thousand spikes will provide more grip and traction than the one spike.... does that make sense?


or another way of looking at it.... lets say you have sticky hands and are climbing up a wall..... wouldnt huge hands provide a lot more grip than tiny hands?

haha

[redtoprps13]

Originally Posted by ScubaSteve

A wider tire has more surface area, are you disagreeing with that? Try pushing two blocks of equal mass and different surface area and see how frictional forces work.

common sense isn't common

[DPancoast]

like some others have said... more grip = faster driving if you ask me lol... not a good trade off

[ScubaSteve]

Originally Posted by supraghost

yeah i dont understand the part about a wider tire having the same contact patch.


and i understand a smaller contact patch with the same mass will have a higher psi, making the friction greater...

i just get this to work out in my brain. can someone explain the heat benifit thing?



i was thinking of it like this. lets blow this up super big and say the grip stuff they put down is actually little spikes sticking up. a large tire will have thousands of spikes sticking into it. a tiny little tire will have one spike in it (obviously exagerating).... so obviously the thousand spikes will provide more grip and traction than the one spike.... does that make sense?


or another way of looking at it.... lets say you have sticky hands and are climbing up a wall..... wouldnt huge hands provide a lot more grip than tiny hands?

haha

The spike analogy is sort of correct. Friction comes from tiny imperfections on a surface (no surface can be perfectly smooth). You can easily see a good example of the imperfections by looking at sandpaper, a higher grit looks smoother and slides easier while a lower grit looks rough and is harder to slide. If you put a low grit sand paper on a porous surface it will be really tough to move because the two surfaces almost interlock (like a spike going into a hole). Hopefully that helps explain it a bit but you are correct that it's easy to see that the more area you have "interlocking" the tougher it will be to break the contact of the two surfaces.

[Chris B.]

Originally Posted by supraghost

yeah i dont understand the part about a wider tire having the same contact patch.

With the same tire diameter and similar sidewall stiffness, the contact patch when the car isn't moving will be the same size, but different shapes for different tire widths. When you change things such as sidewall stiffness or weight on the tire, then the contact patch can change size.

Originally Posted by 92sileighty

want his email? lols i'm not gonna argue with what i was taught and proved correct in class. but from your comments, i think you guys are missing the point. with the same coefficient of friction on the tires, it doesn't matter if they are different size. While people run bigger tires, they also run a different grip rating (coefficient of friction) which would mean better/worse grip. in our case, better. you simpy stated run a bigger tire, and i simply stated that idea was worthless. but if you said bigger tires, different coefficient of friction rating, then you would be correct. but still, its crazy how a bigger tire with the same rating makes no difference in grip.

If nothing changes, such as the car is parked, then you are correct. With the same tire diameter and same weight on each tire the size of the contact patch doesn't change. So trying to push a parked car with the brakes locked with 235/50-18 tires or 275/40-18 tires of the same tire compound should require about the same effort.

However, even with the same tire compound, when the load on the tire changes due to cornering, braking, or acceleration, the shape of the contact patch changes and the forces on the tire change. This can lead to the narrower tire rolling over onto the sidewall and having a narrower contact patch and less grip along with less predictability. In addition to that, when the tire heats up, the narrow tire will heat up faster and can lead to the tire overheating and losing grip because its outside of its optimal temperature range.

So in summary, when pushing a parked car with the brakes locked and four tires of the same compound, but different sizes, you are correct. In real world application, you aren't. If you were, then there wouldn't be tire width limitations in certain racing classes because the different width of the tire wouldn't make the car faster. For Example, look at most of the SCCA's street tire class tire width rules. There is no limit on sidewall height or overall tire size, just tire width and treadwear rating. Wider tires of the same diameter with a 140+ treadwear compound are faster than narrower tires with the same treadwear rating and compound. The wider tires of the same treadwear rating and the same compound make more grip, period. Its proven on race tracks, airport runways, and large parking lots on a regular basis.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by sean3

Coefficient of friction is determined by the tire compound, not the width. In perfect theory, a narrow tire and a wide tire would be the same because the contact patch is the same size. But what if the tire is so narrow that there can not physically be enough rubber on the ground for the contact patch to fill? Now you're loading the sidewalls and a wider tire would help.

Sean, you brought up an interesting thing here, but I believe you may have explained it wrong.

Coefficient of Friction is determined by the tire compound, so in theory all tires that are made of the same compound will have the same coefficient of friction. That's assuming that all other factors are a constant.

Now, in a perfect world, with two uniform surfaces, traction is independent of surface area (Contact Patch in our example). So, Traction, or Force of Friction, is equal to the Coefficient of Friction multiplied by the Normal Force acting on an object. In our case, the normal force is the weight of the car.

So, according to that logic, a wider tire and a narrow tire are equal.

But, in the real world, surfaces are not uniform, and there are many more factors that effect Traction or Force of Friction then in the above model. Which leads to differences in traction or force of friction between different tire sizes with the same Coefficient of Friction.

[sean3]

Originally Posted by thefro526

Sean, you brought up an interesting thing here, but I believe you may have explained it wrong.

Coefficient of Friction is determined by the tire compound, so in theory all tires that are made of the same compound will have the same coefficient of friction. That's assuming that all other factors are a constant.

Now, in a perfect world, with two uniform surfaces, traction is independent of surface area (Contact Patch in our example). So, Traction, or Force of Friction, is equal to the Coefficient of Friction multiplied by the Normal Force acting on an object. In our case, the normal force is the weight of the car.

So, according to that logic, a wider tire and a narrow tire are equal.

But, in the real world, surfaces are not uniform, and there are many more factors that effect Traction or Force of Friction then in the above model. Which leads to differences in traction or force of friction between different tire sizes with the same Coefficient of Friction.

I believe we are on the same page here. I just conveniently left out the whole part about theory not really applying in the real world.

[PAFirefighter11]

Originally Posted by driftingrx5.7

i wonder if thats the same crap they have been putting on some of our back roads here, its almost scary i don't take some of those roads anymore on my bike!

That **** they do here is called "tar and chip" ... Google it. It's a way to "save money" on repaving...

[oneday]

Back to the original topic...I think all of you drifters should start drifting around the back roads of Bucks County a lot more now...like I want to see drifting out there 24/7...maybe then, next year we can get the super grippy road surfaces

[OBEEWON]

Just means you can drift faster lol.

Funny how people think traction is something you don't want in drifting.

[supraghost]

Originally Posted by OBEEWON

Just means you can drift faster lol.

Funny how people think traction is something you don't want in drifting.

we arent all pros like you obee