Sigh.

[CHAOS]

i dont know, look at the welfare system, people are having MORE kids just so they can get more money... there are downfalls... this is america after all... we **** things up better than any place else.

[wrx_snobordr]

Originally Posted by Kerplunk105

I currently dont have insurance either...my work doesnt offer it and I dont work enough hours to be able to afford insurance on my own. Luckily, I would have other sources if anything ever happen.

However, I think its pretty...self centered of some of you not to want to think beyond yourselves. If it was a few dollars out of my paycheck each week to help someone who couldnt afford health insurance, I would do it. What if you couldn't afford insurance. I used to work at a parenting/health care office. Imagine you or your daughter got raped and your insurance didnt cover prenantal care or an abortion, (if you chose that route). Or your son had cancer and you couldnt afford treatments. Its not necessary the parents fault that they cant afford insurance.

I can see where most of you are coming from. Many people would, and do take advantage of "the system". However, I dont think that means that there shouldnt be one. I think that the entire health care system needs to be completely changed.

I already pay a large portion on my paycheck into government subsidized health care, its called Medicare and Medicade as well as C.H.I.P.S. and other gov funded programs. These are supposed to take care of those in need and those unable of supporting themselves. I think we need to increase the efficiency of these programs, not increase their size and scope and create new programs. All we are doing is increasing the layers of bureaucracy which will be to the detriment of us all.

I don't support abortion so I wouldn't want my money going to cover one. I agree that if a woman is raped she should have the option to have an abortion, just not on my dollar.

As I said before if we were going to set up a universal plan, they we also need to implement controls. This would mean the government would be justified in looking into your personal choices. If you eat terribly, sorry bud, more money from you. Same if you smoke or drink.

[Kerplunk105]

That was one of my points...the current health care system needs to be reformed so it does work. So that people arent having more and more money taken out.

I completely agree that implement controls are needed.

Interesting idea you brought up about unhealthy lifestyles...can you explain that more? Like if someone lives an unhealthy life, they would pay more?

[wrx_snobordr]

Originally Posted by Kerplunk105

I completely understand, Jon. However, if you currently are paying for your health insurance...say Susies example of $77/week...what if it was more like $5/week since society would be contributing to the total fund? Wouldnt that be better for everyone?

HA HA at $5 a week. The costs would increase, not decrease if we went to universal care. Reasons are as follows.

1. We have more doctors per capita than any nation and they make the most.
a. More doctors would be needed.
b. We could not decrease their salaries, their union is to strong.
c. Just these costs alone guarantee us we could not run on par with any other socialized system in the world.

2. one of the largest argument is it would decrease the use of emergency rooms, this is a false assumption.
a. There is no gaurntee a person will seek preventative care, so even though they can, doesn't mean they will, so they still may suffer that massive heart attack necessitating the emergency room.
b. We can not predeict broken legs or car accidents, these will still necessitate emergency room visits.
c. many injuries where people now avoid going to the emergency room for because of lack of insurance would then go. Also, people who don't actually need care but figure, hey its free, will show up.
d. We still will be supporting the illegal immigrants, all 12 million of them.

3. As Americans we expect a high level of care. We are not willing to wait 3 weeks for an MRI. Since we are sue happy, doctors will still be forced to order multiple tests to ensure they are making the correct call. Having all 45 million uninsured now covered is great, but the expenditures to buy all the necessary equipment to keep the same level of care is astronomical.

4. The government would need to buy out the insurance companies. Many of the stock holders in these companies are powerful individuals who will not go down without a fight. We will pay out billions in buy outs just for the ability to implement the plan.

5. Who would supplement the loss in investment capital for new drugs and treatments? the government? The cost for this has been put by some estimates to near war level spending. Think we can afford that in conjunction with all the other social programs we currently run?

I don't know abut you but I don't like the sounds of a 50% tax rate.

[halfhorsepower]

.....

[halfhorsepower]

.....

[wrx_snobordr]

Originally Posted by Kerplunk105

That was one of my points...the current health care system needs to be reformed so it does work. So that people arent having more and more money taken out.

I completely agree that implement controls are needed.

Interesting idea you brought up about unhealthy lifestyles...can you explain that more? Like if someone lives an unhealthy life, they would pay more?

Sure. Two of the largest costs to Health Care are also avoidable, Smoking and Obesity related diseases.

If a person smokes they are more likely to develop numerous diseases. Also, by smoking they are almost guaranteed to be more susceptible to normal illnesses like the flu or a cold. Why is it our job to cover their unhealthy habits?

Some companies have begun implementing plans where they will help you quit smoking and if you don't, verified by drug tests, you can be fired. Others, like the government, have begun testing for nicotine and charge a higher price.

Obesity is the same deal. it leads to thins as simple as muscle and join problems to diabetes. All can be avoided or drastically cut if people simply made better lifestyle choices. As a capitalist I don't think we can tell McDonald's to cut down what they serve. however, we can check people for elements contained in certain fast foods or other unhealthy foods, such as High Fructose Corn Syrup, if we find that in people, in large amounts, they should pay more. We should give them the ability ti tone up, but if they choose to live like a sloth, then they will pay the price.

[Kerplunk105]

Originally Posted by wrx_snobordr

HA HA at $5 a week. The costs would increase, not decrease if we went to universal care. Reasons are as follows.

1. We have more doctors per capita than any nation and they make the most.
a. More doctors would be needed.
b. We could not decrease their salaries, their union is to strong.
c. Just these costs alone guarantee us we could not run on par with any other socialized system in the world.

2. one of the largest argument is it would decrease the use of emergency rooms, this is a false assumption.
a. There is no gaurntee a person will seek preventative care, so even though they can, doesn't mean they will, so they still may suffer that massive heart attack necessitating the emergency room.
b. We can not predeict broken legs or car accidents, these will still necessitate emergency room visits.
c. many injuries where people now avoid going to the emergency room for because of lack of insurance would then go. Also, people who don't actually need care but figure, hey its free, will show up.
d. We still will be supporting the illegal immigrants, all 12 million of them.

3. As Americans we expect a high level of care. We are not willing to wait 3 weeks for an MRI. Since we are sue happy, doctors will still be forced to order multiple tests to ensure they are making the correct call. Having all 45 million uninsured now covered is great, but the expenditures to buy all the necessary equipment to keep the same level of care is astronomical.

4. The government would need to buy out the insurance companies. Many of the stock holders in these companies are powerful individuals who will not go down without a fight. We will pay out billions in buy outs just for the ability to implement the plan.

5. Who would supplement the loss in investment capital for new drugs and treatments? the government? The cost for this has been put by some estimates to near war level spending. Think we can afford that in conjunction with all the other social programs we currently run?

I don't know abut you but I don't like the sounds of a 50% tax rate.

Good, valid points. I never said anything about universal care. My point was the current health care programs(s) need to be rewritten so they work more effectively.

[Kerplunk105]

Originally Posted by wrx_snobordr

Sure. Two of the largest costs to Health Care are also avoidable, Smoking and Obesity related diseases.

If a person smokes they are more likely to develop numerous diseases. Also, by smoking they are almost guaranteed to be more susceptible to normal illnesses like the flu or a cold. Why is it our job to cover their unhealthy habits?

Some companies have begun implementing plans where they will help you quit smoking and if you don't, verified by drug tests, you can be fired. Others, like the government, have begun testing for nicotine and charge a higher price.

Obesity is the same deal. it leads to thins as simple as muscle and join problems to diabetes. All can be avoided or drastically cut if people simply made better lifestyle choices. As a capitalist I don't think we can tell McDonald's to cut down what they serve. however, we can check people for elements contained in certain fast foods or other unhealthy foods, such as High Fructose Corn Syrup, if we find that in people, in large amounts, they should pay more. We should give them the ability ti tone up, but if they choose to live like a sloth, then they will pay the price.

Very interesting!!! I guess it really all comes down to education, right? Being educated about healthy lifestyles. Not smoking, eating healthy, exercising, etc.

[wrx_snobordr]

Originally Posted by Kerplunk105

Good, valid points. I never said anything about universal care. My point was the current health care programs(s) need to be rewritten so they work more effectively.

But you can't rewrite them. Anytime a politician has the guts to challenge one they are instantly chastized for wanting to harm the poor or unfortunate.

Think back to when Bush wanted to try and fix social security, the AARP went on the offensive saying millions of people would lose their benefits. It was totally false but the measure was defeated because people believed false information and didn't take the time to research the topic for themselves.

The only thing that can happen is we continue to add on layer upon layer. Politicians only add so they can pad their resume and ensure their own re-election the next term.

[K-Rex]

So health care is a privilege and not a right?

[halfhorsepower]

.....

[CHAOS]

Originally Posted by halfhorsepower

Pay some bills? These are people who had insurance and got DENIED coverage when they needed the insurance and had to sell their houses and move in wit their kids to afford treatment. It has nothing to do with people who "don't have a job". Also, in france they get 5 paid weeks of vacation a year.... its a law. Their work week is 35 hours, not 40, and if you get sick, you take off work, no "planning your sick days". It's not about having a job, it's about the right to basic health care that everyone in europe, the americas, parts of asia, africa and the various island countries all over the world have. If cuba can have top notch nationalized health care, i think we can do it. These folks got DENIED coverage, in those other countries it's illegal to deny treatment, because the government pays for it out of taxes. If half the world has this going on, and seems to be a great way to do things, we should be able, as the richest nation in the world, to do it too. Just seems like a lot of the first page of comments was folks missing the point.

ok but why are they getting denied? you say we should be able to do it, im sure we can, i know i just dont want to, im sure i share the mentality of a lot of americans when i say i work my ass off for benefits, if you cant get them i dont care because its not my problem ... it may suck that its that way, you may not like it, but thats how it is.

[halfhorsepower]

.....

[CHAOS]

Originally Posted by halfhorsepower

The way most other nations do it involves taxes, but, imagine how much you avoid the doctor now because of the cost of a office visit. Now, imagine there never being a cost, and any medication you will ever need be it for aids or cancer or a sore throat, free or maybe 5 dollars for something that currently costs 500 bucks a pop. There are a ton of people in our country, imagine if we could not have to worry bout doctors and prescriptions ever again, and this way we can focus on more important stuff, like your family and projects to improve the standard of living for everyone. I know first hand how difficult it is to get on medicaid, and also how unhelpful it can really be sometimes. Cut though the bureaucracy and red tape. Go to the doc, bam, healthy. Healthy= able to work. Healthy = make good choices. I bet if you broke your leg on a ski trip in the alps and you got treated say in france and released and ended up not paying a dime you'd have a change of perspective. Solidarity.

i pay 10 bucks to see the doctor and get prescriptions very cheap, my health is more important than my bank account. and referals are $25.. not a big deal. you seem to think this **** is impossible to pay for... its not. grow up. spend some money. you cant always save, you cant always "do the right thing"

[CHAOS]

Originally Posted by halfhorsepower

Bush didn't want to fix social security, he wanted to rig it for his buddies profits, and if we had universal healthcare we wouldn't need social security disability. The whole concept is so alien to us most people don't even get it. It's not you paying for lazy people. It's you paying, and me paying and everyone paying for everyone else, so when tragedy or unexpected things strike it's a worry free process that doesn't involve taking out a second mortgage and suffocating debt just to be treated in a hospital 5 blocks away because your insurance company denied coverage.

but see you are not getting it, i dont want to pay for anyone else... **** THEM. /end

[wrx_snobordr]

Originally Posted by K-Rex

So health care is a privilege and not a right?

HA HA Come on man, spare me the canned liberal response.

[CHAOS]

Originally Posted by wrx_snobordr

HA HA Come on man, spare me the canned liberal response.

exactly,

YOU ARE GOD DAMN RIGHT ITS A PRIVELEDGE. i pay for it. that makes it a priveledge.

[halfhorsepower]

Originally Posted by CHAOS

ok but why are they getting denied? you say we should be able to do it, im sure we can, i know i just dont want to, im sure i share the mentality of a lot of americans when i say i work my ass off for benefits, if you cant get them i dont care because its not my problem ... it may suck that its that way, you may not like it, but thats how it is.

You shouldn't have to work your ass off for benefits. You should have it equally and the same as everyone, so your hard earned money can go into your pocket, so what if a few bucks goes towards the well being of your fellow citizens? I bet if the system was changed you'd feel totally wonderful that you helped that poor kid down the street who got hit by a drunk driver while walking home from school recover from the few bucks you and everyone else in the country paid out of their wages. The examples go on and on and on and on. About the folks being denied, the HMO people look for ANY reason, sometimes not even a legitimate one to disqualify coverage for specific events, and sometimes dropping the client all together from their service. All that hard work for nothing, they don't care if you have a life or a car payment, all they want is your money, and to not have to pay for things if something does actually happen. We need to stand up to these greedy assholes and tell them "no more you had your shot" and change **** by calling and faxing and writing and emailing to your representatives, or electing ones who have the guts to stand up to the healthcare lobby. In other countries people who don't do their job who are elected are routed and sacked and marked with shame, why do we put up with congresspersons and senators that do nothing? Hand us over to their campaign contributors, that's about all they are good for. It's a chronic systemic and deep seated flaw in this country that needs to change. They have everyone so afraid of stepping out of line that they have us bent over backwards at gunpoint shivering in terror.

[wrx_snobordr]

Originally Posted by halfhorsepower

The way most other nations do it involves taxes, but, imagine how much you avoid the doctor now because of the cost of a office visit. Now, imagine there never being a cost, and any medication you will ever need be it for aids or cancer or a sore throat, free or maybe 5 dollars for something that currently costs 500 bucks a pop. There are a ton of people in our country, imagine if we could not have to worry bout doctors and prescriptions ever again, and this way we can focus on more important stuff, like your family and projects to improve the standard of living for everyone. I know first hand how difficult it is to get on medicaid, and also how unhelpful it can really be sometimes. Cut though the bureaucracy and red tape. Go to the doc, bam, healthy. Healthy= able to work. Healthy = make good choices. I bet if you broke your leg on a ski trip in the alps and you got treated say in france and released and ended up not paying a dime you'd have a change of perspective. Solidarity.

You have the same common misconception, that its free. "Now, imagine there never being a cost...." There is a cost, it just goes from being direct to indirect. As you said, other nations pay for it through taxes, they also had to INCREASE the taxes to cover the plans. I currently pay about $50 a week for health care. If we implement a tax increase of 7%, it was a proposition in Maine that was offered, that alone would be much more than what I currently pay. It also is not shared suffering. people who don't work or make below a certain amount are off the hook. Also, i don't think 7% is a realistic goal as after reading the entire proposal I found many gaps that would occur and many areas not addressed.