More troops to Iraq/Middle East: discuss!

[ketchup!]

Originally Posted by PotenzaSub

Oh, please elaborate.

ok, "lets send 21,500 more troops over for an unworthy cause" there is no point for us to be over in Iraq, what does it gain for the U.S.?

[Ronin Tactical]

Why do you guys even try to discuss things you don't understand or are uninformed on? Talk about things you know about, there'll be much less frustration.

It's really ok to say "I don't know" about something.

[Action Park]

QUOTE=chaos311clarity;419538]I dont know about the rest of you... but i think its time for president bush to stop sending our men over there and pull out while we can... there are far too many people dieing and getting seriously hurt for a reason that many americans do not even know.... he claims we need to finish the job... well what job is it? the iraqi's can fight their own war... it is not the job of americans to keep peace everywhere in the world...[/QUOTE]
The U.S. will send enough troops to keep the war going strong, but not enough for people on a mass scale to seriously start questioning them about the real underlying reasons for the "war on terror". Therefore, it will not be long( most likely within '07) before another large scale attack on the American people, a staged terror strike on a large city possibly by biological means and blamed on Al Queda, will occur in order to instill more fear into the muddled mass. In turn, more troops will be sent over and the battlefield will extend into Iran. More bills will be passed, like the recent 9/11 commission bill, in order to create more freedom restricting regulations.

Whats with this nonsense you say? Why would anyone want war you say? Quite simple really. The people who pull the strings do'nt die in war, they profit off of it. Even more importantly, it creates fear in the people; not exactly look under the bed and toilets for bombs type of fear, but fear that cannot be defined. Look at the history of the Catholic church for an example of how this type of fear can dumb down the individual to the point of complete faith in the dogmatics of other people while oppressing natural instinct(oftentimes, by the festering of these instincts, they transmute into morally demolishing vices such as drug or child abuse). If you look to nature, it is not hard to find which portion of the animal kingdom seems to operate in a smooth and effective manner towards a simple goal: those with the smallest brains. They have no individual purpose. However, even they have the sense to work to the goal of survival, as opposed to the avoidance of the fear of death, which is the only fear. As the naysayers are quick to point out my apparent contradiction with what I said earlier about fear that cannot be defined, let me state that I am not merely talking about fear of physical death(which is not absolute in itself), but the death of any belief that one holds to be reality. In order for a country to be run in the way a government wants it to be run, individual freedom must be crushed by the instillation of false morals that appeal to the ego. Patriotism is one such example. The "war on drugs", or any war in the æon of Horus, follows on much the same path.

People do not control things, people change things. Things can control people, but things cannot change people.

There will be people on this forum that will say that the predictions that I made earlier are foolish. Yes, they are wrong in one way or another. It does not matter. However, the enemy and it's morals are identified. There will be people on this forum that will say that I do not appreciate what the soldiers and our country do for me. They are wrong for the first part. Anybody who strives for life is noble of the highest order. It is no matter if what they are fighting for is seemingly pointless, the yearning for life and the life of others transcends any percieved morals. There will be those on this forum who will say that I am a paranoid, delusional idiot with no basis in reality. To this, I can only state that not only is it key to yearn for life, but to yearn for death as well. In death is life concealed, in life is death triumphant; herein lies a whore of a secret. Idiot? Perhaps. Delusional? Of course, we all are. Reality is never known, it is only percieved; Perception is false. Live! Die!

P.S. Word on da street is that, since Sunday, the U.S. has been conducting bombing raids on Somalia. Go figure.

[StealthTC]

I was at a bar last night and ran into a guy I worked with about 2 years ago. We were shootin the **** and he mentioned he renlisted back into the marines for another 4 years. I am not one to get into politics but he told me that you would not understand the feeling or brotherhood until your enlisted and there. He did his 4 years and spent 2 of the 4 in Iraq he said he cannot wait to be back over there because he feels obligated and he feels like he left his brothers behind. He said he would rather die there with his brotherhood and gratitude......I am overly atonished when he said this to me but I could see the gratification in his eyes and didn't ask any questions.

[Intercooled T]

Originally Posted by Action Park

QUOTE=chaos311clarity;419538]I dont know about the rest of you... but i think its time for president bush to stop sending our men over there and pull out while we can... there are far too many people dieing and getting seriously hurt for a reason that many americans do not even know.... he claims we need to finish the job... well what job is it? the iraqi's can fight their own war... it is not the job of americans to keep peace everywhere in the world...

The U.S. will send enough troops to keep the war going strong, but not enough for people on a mass scale to seriously start questioning them about the real underlying reasons for the "war on terror". Therefore, it will not be long( most likely within '07) before another large scale attack on the American people, a staged terror strike on a large city possibly by biological means and blamed on Al Queda, will occur in order to instill more fear into the muddled mass. In turn, more troops will be sent over and the battlefield will extend into Iran. More bills will be passed, like the recent 9/11 commission bill, in order to create more freedom restricting regulations.

Whats with this nonsense you say? Why would anyone want war you say? Quite simple really. The people who pull the strings do'nt die in war, they profit off of it. Even more importantly, it creates fear in the people; not exactly look under the bed and toilets for bombs type of fear, but fear that cannot be defined. Look at the history of the Catholic church for an example of how this type of fear can dumb down the individual to the point of complete faith in the dogmatics of other people while oppressing natural instinct(oftentimes, by the festering of these instincts, they transmute into morally demolishing vices such as drug or child abuse). If you look to nature, it is not hard to find which portion of the animal kingdom seems to operate in a smooth and effective manner towards a simple goal: those with the smallest brains. They have no individual purpose. However, even they have the sense to work to the goal of survival, as opposed to the avoidance of the fear of death, which is the only fear. As the naysayers are quick to point out my apparent contradiction with what I said earlier about fear that cannot be defined, let me state that I am not merely talking about fear of physical death(which is not absolute in itself), but the death of any belief that one holds to be reality. In order for a country to be run in the way a government wants it to be run, individual freedom must be crushed by the instillation of false morals that appeal to the ego. Patriotism is one such example. The "war on drugs", or any war in the æon of Horus, follows on much the same path.

People do not control things, people change things. Things can control people, but things cannot change people.

There will be people on this forum that will say that the predictions that I made earlier are foolish. Yes, they are wrong in one way or another. It does not matter. However, the enemy and it's morals are identified. There will be people on this forum that will say that I do not appreciate what the soldiers and our country do for me. They are wrong for the first part. Anybody who strives for life is noble of the highest order. It is no matter if what they are fighting for is seemingly pointless, the yearning for life and the life of others transcends any percieved morals. There will be those on this forum who will say that I am a paranoid, delusional idiot with no basis in reality. To this, I can only state that not only is it key to yearn for life, but to yearn for death as well. In death is life concealed, in life is death triumphant; herein lies a whore of a secret. Idiot? Perhaps. Delusional? Of course, we all are. Reality is never known, it is only percieved; Perception is false. Live! Die!

P.S. Word on da street is that, since Sunday, the U.S. has been conducting bombing raids on Somalia. Go figure.

That was the stupidest post I've read in a while. I like how you try to play 'middle of the road', but still throw in your conspiracy theories. Did you copy and paste that or what???

[wrx_snobordr]

Originally Posted by civicboy18974

ok, "lets send 21,500 more troops over for an unworthy cause" there is no point for us to be over in Iraq, what does it gain for the U.S.?

there is more to his presidency than this war, it is just what the media focuses on. In his time in office the tax burden on the lowest 50% of income gainers has steadily declined, contrary to what the democdrats would have you believe. He has also fought for the HSA's that will allow individuals to save tax free for their own healthcare and will allow them to get the same sort of discounts companies get. As they catch on more the burden on small businesses will decrease allowing our country to grow and health care will be placed back into real competition. This will force them to lower costs while improving efficency and quality because thats what the end user will demand. He has pushed for the extension of roth 401(k)s beyond 2010 which is pretty big for most of us on here if we plan on saving for retirement as most of us are younger and in a lower tax bracket.

[Ronin Tactical]

The uninformed always have the best conspiracy theories.

[wrx_snobordr]

Originally Posted by Jim Lewis

The uneducated and uninformed always have the best conspiracy theories.

They are good for a laugh though. I think some people have read 1984 too many times.

[Ronin Tactical]

Agreed - I'll remove "uneducated" from my post, though, as I feel that I haven't talked to a stupid person yet on this forum or at meets. Sometimes, though, influence from some we are educated by makes us look through eyes with blinders, or at least, tinted glasses.

[PotenzaSub]

Originally Posted by Raven18940

So the only way out is to get in deeper first. Damn it this sucks. But when is the media releasing troop movements, I've never seen that.

You need to watch the news more often. The other day on CNN's Situation Room they said that 4,000 troops would be going to Al Anbar province and about 16000 to Baghdad. They also specifically singled out Sadr City as a major battle ground.

Originally Posted by civicboy18974

ok, "lets send 21,500 more troops over for an unworthy cause" there is no point for us to be over in Iraq, what does it gain for the U.S.?

Please don't post in this thread again.

[therealfitz]

I definitley agree with alot that was said here, and some great points were made, but what urks me is when you have a full house of Democrats that want to cut funding to those toops that are risking their lives. Not to metion, they want to spend that money on the failing public education systems in the U.S, now i think thats rediculous. Yeh lets take money from those who are already living in sh!tty wartime conditions, because they are merely representing our country, and getting in a way criticised for it. For example when soldiers die, and there are those dickless bastards that go and protest at their funerals, that sh!t blows my mind.

That's bold, and not the issue in question either. We're here to discuss the deployment of more forces to the area. Evidently though, after reading some things here and on other forums, our education does need funding boosts.

Anyway...

I'm not even going to start with this, it's too frustrating to reason with some people on this board. Let's just pray when John McCain comes into office he will do what is in the troops and the iraqi people's best interest. I'm sure he will.

He's gettin a bit old. I also feel that he's not as sharp or independent as he used to be. He said some really out-of-character things back around the last election. There are some great democratic candidates in the running also. Barak Obama or John Edwards could do big things as well. Both are young, sharp, and have some balls...qualities that I also find/found in McCain.* 2008 should produce an interesting election.

*edit: Except for young heh...

You want to get into Bush vs Clinton? This isn't about Bill's blow jobs and W's lack of speaking ability. Bill was handed Bin laden on a silver platter by non other than Khadaffy (of Libya), and didn't take him. During Clinton's reign, the Seals and Deltas were never more fully staffed, we had all the intel we needed to go get bad guys, and Clinton never pulled the trigger.

Exactly, we aren't here to discuss this, especially when many hold that he was trained and funded through the 1980's by the USA to eliminate a presumably larger threat. A "lesser of two evils" situation. Sorry, I got off track...

there's too many checks and balances

You bet there are. Written out of too many checkbooks, withdrawn or deposited to alter the balances of politicians' accounts. I'd love an average Joe street guy for a president; somebody that was truly one of the people.

I always got a kick out of Clinton handling anything with the military though since he himself was a legitimate draft dodger.

I always got a kick out of W, who was also a draft-dodger. What's your point?

People do not control things, people change things. Things can control people, but things cannot change people.

Psuedo-Freudian blanket statement?

You need to watch the news more often. The other day on CNN's Situation Room they said that 4,000 troops would be going to Al Anbar province and about 16000 to Baghdad. They also specifically singled out Sadr City as a major battle ground.

So did the President's address...

Let's get this thread a bit back more on topic. I'm gonna go talk about cars. I've dealt with enough death the past month.

[Ronin Tactical]

"I always got a kick out of W, who was also a draft-dodger. What's your point?"

No reason to lie. He was an Air force Reservist, and Kerry tried to drum up some theory that he missed several reserve drills, even found letters stating such....and the letters were deemed to be fakes. Funny how his follower's still followed him, despite obvious election fraud.

Perhaps a quick study of the facts would strengthen your ability to debate with credibility.

[Raven18940]

Originally Posted by PotenzaSub

You need to watch the news more often. The other day on CNN's Situation Room they said that 4,000 troops would be going to Al Anbar province and about 16000 to Baghdad. They also specifically singled out Sadr City as a major battle ground.

Well Bush said that in his speech, he even said the 4,000 in anbar would be marines. So what else has the media leaked that wasn't leaked by the White House first.

And I just wanted to say that this thread, and the research I've done as a result of it, has changed my perspective a lot.

[wrx_snobordr]

^ As he stated Bush wasnt a draft dodger, he was a reservist. He may never have seen battle but the potential was there. he didnt leave the country when it called on him to serve.

Originally Posted by therealfitz

Exactly, we aren't here to discuss this, especially when many hold that he was trained and funded through the 1980's by the USA to eliminate a presumably larger threat. A "lesser of two evils" situation. Sorry, I got off track...

Thats a whole different debate, but if you like we can have it. At the time he WAS the lesser of two evils. Carter allowed the current regime in Iran to come to power and had to do something.. Reagan followed up and Bush 1 but and end to the funding. Funny thing about that is, the French and Germans provided both provided more than we ever did. Also, when we stopped they continued. How do you think those French built Mirage jets were able to fly? They need constant upkeep, guess the French did have a reason for us to not go in there?

[therealfitz]

As he stated Bush wasnt a draft dodger, he was a reservist. He may never have seen battle but the potential was there. he didnt leave the country when it called on him to serve.

I guess I should have prefaced my statement better. There are a lot of people that see his entry to the reserves as a dodge-move. It's always young people that have to die in wars started by old men, and when those same old men never faced similar circumstances, it's frustrating. I watched Bush's speech last night, I read the transcript after that, and I watched Rice give her full explanation today as it was broadcast live. I still don't see a big plan.

[Ronin Tactical]

A dodge move? Check out the number of reservists and guardsmen who are currently deployed to Iraq - they aren't dodging anything....

[Action Park]

intercooled T- A post cannot be stupid, it holds no intelligence of it's own. In essence, you are calling yourself stupid as you failed to understand what you read under Action Park's name. You could say that you understood what was written and labeled it as nonsence, but then, of course, you are still labeling yourself as stupid because anything can be percieved as right depending upon the conditions that are imposed upon it. A gsr can have either 170hp or 500hp completely stock depending upon the strength of the horse! A standard unit of measurement was established only for convienience. Something can only be correct or false by the comparison with something else, it is false in itself. One could say that my first paragraph could be labled as a conspiracy theory. Yet, in the last paragraph, I clearly state that I am wrong. I only made that prediction based on the cause and effect of drastic change that has recently occured in U.S. history. Once again, it does'nt matter what happens, it is how the individual reacts to restriction and finds ways to better themselves and others. Copy and paste? No, you'll be hard pressed to find material on the web written with as much a lack of literary competence as I have demonstrated.

Jim Lewis- I'll take it as a compliment to be called "uninformed". To be informed implies that one has recieved information from an external source. Who's to say that this source is correct? Well it ca'nt be as information is only the excretement of perception. Who were you, being an informed person, informed by? Your superiors in the military? Personal experience? Ah yes, you are quick to take the position of the latter front. Yet, one can never know what one experiences as all the forces involved in the creation of an experience cannot be totally understood. One only builds a paradigm of the experience based upon what one has experienced to date, and subsequently creates an analysis or synthesis on a microcosmic scale. Subjectivity and objectivity are much the same when the basis of their assumption is catagorized by the rauch. Of course the forth dimension exists(everything exists, but only to the conditions as to which it is defined), but it can only be assumed by it's subsequent effect upon the first 3 dimensions.

Wrx Snobordr- I am happy to see you found a comedic value in what has been said. Comedy is usually quite lacking in political threads of this nature. I have read 1984 once, possibly in the 10th grade. A very miserable book, which was, of course, it's intention. I have no use of it any longer and have no desire to read it again.

I expected a better retaliation than this out of you people, maybe they who did'nt post actually recognize the underlying message behind what I have written and have co-related it to their own placement in the cosmos. I have only recieved blanket statements to label me as someone who is not of the same material as yourself, instead of forming a rebuttal around what I wrote and proving it as wrong. Well, anything can be proved as right or wrong(as is indicated by my remark to Intercooled T) so long as the conditions by which it is judged are made favorable, thereby making debate theoretically useless. At least the common grounds for worthless flaming have'nt been employed, such as nit-picking for obvious grammatical mistakes( like my misspelling of Al-Qaeda for instance) or simply telling me to leave. Good luck with your digestion of my babble, we have already wasted precious time on reading and writing instead of attaining to superior "realities".

[Ronin Tactical]

"Jim Lewis- I'll take it as a compliment to be called "uninformed". To be informed implies that one has recieved information from an external source. Who's to say that this source is correct? Well it ca'nt be as information is only the excretement of perception. Who were you, being an informed person, informed by? Your superiors in the military? Personal experience? Ah yes, you are quick to take the position of the latter front. Yet, one can never know what one experiences as all the forces involved in the creation of an experience cannot be totally understood. One only builds a paradigm of the experience based upon what one has experienced to date, and subsequently creates an analysis or synthesis on a microcosmic scale. Subjectivity and objectivity are much the same when the basis of their assumption is catagorized by the rauch. Of course the forth dimension exists(everything exists, but only to the conditions as to which it is defined), but it can only be assumed by it's subsequent effect upon the first 3 dimensions. "

That's where you're wrong - you're making the assumption that I've been a blindly following android, only doing what I'm told and experiencing only what's been set in front of me, and I'm seriously offended by your arrogant assumption that I'm an idiot.

I've drawn my experience and opinions from my age, my military experience, the contacts I've had during the 14 years I've been out of the military, and constant input from military, civilian, conservative, and liberal sources...and put together with my master's degree in education and two bachelor's degrees....that I earned studying my textbooks while deployed in some of the worst sh&& holes you could ever imagine.

Before you have the guts to sit back in judgement of me and declare that I have a limited view of the world with which to form opinions, I suggest that you stand and serve along side me, gaining your own experience, instead of hiding in safety and luxury while opining such BS as I've read from you.

[cranshinibon]

I honestly think Bush is trying to fulfill his father's failed legacy to begin with and that he is a complete idiot. I voted for him but regret every second of it since he's been elected. I honestly think he should take Kerry's strategy and instead of sending in mass troops, to train a tactical ops troop that go in as snipers, etc to oversee the fighting from afar and let the remaining troops slowly begin to pull out.

I understand the urgency of fighting against terrorism, but as many have said GWB has no other plan but brute force and diplomacy. If he stated a strong and intelligent plan then maybe it'd be acceptable.

In all honesty we don't need 20,000 more soldiers in Iraq, but we need a solid plan of attack/defense for the soldiers already there so they can do their job more efficiently.

[therealfitz]

A dodge move? Check out the number of reservists and guardsmen who are currently deployed to Iraq - they aren't dodging anything....

No, they aren't, and they can't either. I have several friends that signed up to be in the reserves and hey, they signed up, but damn they sure didn't sign up for this.

This issue could go on back and forth forever, Jim; we both know this. What it does boil down to is service...and those people in the reserves did join to serve their country through the armed forces. That's the bottom line.

But back to the "new plan," I'd love to see the input of the couple people I know on here that have served...