Discuss... Mosque near New York's Ground Zero

[rodder]

Originally Posted by Proven

This is a response to your last 3 paragraphs - Are you comparing a strip club, gun shop, and Liquor store to a Mosque? If not, your at least implying that a mosque is just as destructive. It seems your convinced that ALL Muslims are evil do to a serious brainwashing from right wing christian media. If you seriously want freedom within this Country let others have it too.....

I just wanted to point out here that you didn't really respond to a single one of my questions or points. You deflected and avoided making a single reasonable response while again putting words in my mouth. I also noticed you don't want to respond to my question about your age.

Please point out to me WHERE THE **** I CALLED ALL MUSLIMS TERRORISTS or where I said we shouldn't have religious freedom because I'm really getting tired of you claiming I said things that I never have. The constitution says religious freedom is a natural human right and as you already know I'm a strict proponent of the constitution. Maybe that's the evil part you're referring to that you'd like to re-write.

The mosque and liquor store thing went completely over your head, btw.

and I'm still waiting for you to school me on the so called "evil" parts of the constitution.

For someone who claims to know so much, you sure haven't demonstrated much actual knowledge of history, or really anything at all for that matter. In fact everything so far that you've guessed at has been completely wrong.

BTW, it's very telling that you consider the Tea Party, a movement pushing for limited government and increased freedom just as our founders envisioned, a bunch of terrorists while rallying against anyone who might use the same type of ignorant thinking to apply that label to all muslims. Do you know the meaning of the word hypocrite? If you hate the principals and ideals of this country so much, why don't you just move someplace else? I'm not even sure if you're for real anymore or just trolling.

and I already asked you once nicely. STOP with the left/right thing. I do not watch fox news and I have never heard rush limbaugh speak in my life. I could make stupid ignorant assumptions about you based on one or two beliefs as well, like that you like to burn flags and murder babies and are part of the New World Order attempting to enslave humanity. As I said before, painting everything in a left vs right, black and white brush is only contributing to the erosion of our freedoms. Freedoms that unfortunately you seem to care very little for.

[Proven]

I wasn't aware that you had qs. I mostly saw statements which I responded to w/ qs. If you want to restate the qs. feel free. As with all of our debates (because we love one another) they get out of hand and run wild. I think a couple clear qs. not centered within a paragraph can end this debate or at least give each other a better idea of where we're coming from...

1. Do you think Muslim means terrorist? (if I'm correct, you don't, Me- of course not)

2. Would it be ignorant as hell to think "yes" to the above qs.? (I think so)

3. If Muslim doesn't mean terrorist whats the problem with the Mosque? Is it the ignorant people that can't seem to separate the two?

4. Would it be stripping Americans of there freedoms if they weren't allowed to build a place of worship because of the ignorant?

Off to bed..

[RSX Type-Slow]

I see nothing wrong with a mosque near ground zero but I think it's a bad idea if they go through with it. Only because it will inevitably be vandalized on a daily basis and could put people in danger/ conflict. It's sad to think that when most Americans think of the word Muslin, terrorists come to mind. And I think its hilarious people think Obama's a muslin and that's why he's pitching the idea.

[420sx]

Originally Posted by rodder

For those of you who think this is a good idea... Please explain to me why you think so... and "because they can" is not an acceptable answer. If it were, it would mean we should also be allowed to build strip clubs next to synagogues, liquor stores next to high schools and gun shops next to buddhist temples.

Strip clubs, liquor stores, and gun shops arent protected constitutional rights. Freedom of religion is. So your parallel is completely void. I dont even care to respond to the rest of your off based, biased, ridiculous post.

[bastid]

Originally Posted by 420sx

Muslims have every right to build a mosque wherever they want. I find it a little ridiculous that there's even a debate over it.

This is false. People have a right to freely practice the religion of their choice. Where they practice religion in an official capacity, a church/mosque/temple/etc. is purely up to the local or municipal zoning laws. Some local zoning laws are more cut and dry, but most are qualitative. As in, technically we could allow a strip club to be built at some location, but due to the citizens of that area petitioning due to associated crime and home devaluation, we won't allow it.

Originally Posted by 420sx

Strip clubs, liquor stores, and gun shops arent protected constitutional rights. Freedom of religion is. So your parallel is completely void. I dont even care to respond to the rest of your off based, biased, ridiculous post.

I think you're missing the point slightly. Under the constitution, I'm free to look at pornographic things, drink liquor, and shoot guns. However, I'm not permitted under the constitution to build a liquor store, gun store, or strip club wherever I please. This is subject to the zoning laws mentioned above and previously in this thread.

If the city of New York decides that it shouldn't be built for whatever reason, it has no impact on an individuals freedom to practice religion. Similarly, denying the permission to build a gun store at a particular location has no bearing on my freedom to shoot a firearm.

[420sx]

Good point, I hadnt looked at it that way. I still think itd be wrong to deny them rights to build their mosque solely on the basis of it being a Muslim place of worship, but you are correct in that preventing them from doing so doesnt stop them from practicing their religion.

[bastid]

Originally Posted by 420sx

Good point, I hadnt looked at it that way. I still think itd be wrong to deny them rights to build their mosque solely on the basis of it being a Muslim place of worship, but you are correct in that preventing them from doing so doesnt stop them from practicing their religion.

I agree with you. I think if the sole reason for discrimination was religion, it would be a much more cut and dry issue. If there aren't any zoning issues, then technically speaking it could be built.

However, for a religion that hasn't officially denounced those responsible for 9/11 (or other terrorist or like groups) while preaching/asking for tolerance and compassion, it's certainly interesting that they are completely insensitive to those who live in the immediate surroundings of Ground Zero, worked at or near Ground Zero on 9/11, or lost friends/family in the tragedy.

[rodder]

Originally Posted by 420sx

Strip clubs, liquor stores, and gun shops arent protected constitutional rights. Freedom of religion is. So your parallel is completely void. I dont even care to respond to the rest of your off based, biased, ridiculous post.

wow, and here we have another self-proclaimed constitutional scholar I see...

guess what genius, the consumption of alcohol and the right to bear arms are protected in the same constitution that protects religious freedom. However, the constitution DOES NOT protect a right to build any type of building anywhere you please. Apparently you are another one who's never heard of zoning laws. Please point out to me the part in the constitution that protects your right to build any type of building anywhere you want, as you've claimed it does.

My parallel isn't even really a direct parallel anyway, nor was it intended to be. It's a matter of one group offending another when they could easily choose a different, less offensive site for that building. There is nothing inherently "wrong" imo with building a strip club next to a synagouge, but common human decency tells us that it's inappropriate because we know it would offend the jews worshipping next door. Whether or not we agree with being offended by nekkid womenz, basic human decency tells us that we shouldn't simply ignore those people's feelings. In the exact same vein, there are obviously a lot of people who are offended by the mosque being built so near to ground zero. Are those people being silly and even bigoted? Yes, it's quite possible. But that doesn't mean their feelings should be completely disregarded, just as it would be inappropriate for a strip club owner to disregard the feelings of a church congregation when choosing where to build his business.

Once again, it's called common decency. Apparently you missed that part of humanity class.

BTW, MODERATE MUSLIMS agree with my position:
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Mi...303/story.html

Yes, that's right, you are siding with muslim EXTREMISTS on this issue and not even moderate muslims. Congrats.

If the muslims in charge of building this mosque were truly concerned about tolerance and want to show the world they're not all terrorist extremists, when this many people have a problem with something they're doing, the responsible thing to do would simply be to say, "OK, I can see this is causing a problem, lets just find a different site to build on."

now that we have that out of the way, what are some of the other "ridiculous" and "biased" parts of my post?

You guys really love telling me how stupid and ridiculous my statements are, but have offered absolutely nothing to back up those accusations. Funny how that works, isn't it?

[rodder]

Originally Posted by bastid

I agree with you. I think if the sole reason for discrimination was religion, it would be a much more cut and dry issue. If there aren't any zoning issues, then technically speaking it could be built.

However, for a religion that hasn't officially denounced those responsible for 9/11 (or other terrorist or like groups) while preaching/asking for tolerance and compassion, it's certainly interesting that they are completely insensitive to those who live in the immediate surroundings of Ground Zero, worked at or near Ground Zero on 9/11, or lost friends/family in the tragedy.

thanks for the voice of reason, finally.

and just for the record, I'm completely against zoning laws. Especially the byzantine sort that can be found in NYC.

[420sx]

I started typing a lengthy response, but abandoned it because I dont really care enough to argue about it. I think they should build the mosque.

I love how you typed a long rebuttal to a post that I had already accepted was wrong, though. The condescending tone was a nice touch.

[rodder]

Originally Posted by 420sx

I started typing a lengthy response, but abandoned it because I dont really care enough to argue about it. I think they should build the mosque.

I love how you typed a long rebuttal to a post that I had already accepted was wrong, though. The condescending tone was a nice touch.

Yeah, sorry. People can get a little condescending when their opinions are called ridiculous, biased and off-base by someone who doesn't know what they're talking about and even acknowledges so AFTER they're done ridiculing everyone they don't agree with.

I have a question for you... would you also throw your support behind jews wishing to build a synagouge in mecca? When the muslim religion becomes tolerant of other religions, then and ONLY then will I show them the tolerance they demand.

[J.Ralli]

proposed Mosque near Ground Zero is going to be named The Cordoba
House... It just so happens that there is a city in Spain named Cordoba.
Cordoba was attacked and later captured by a Muslim army. There is no
coincidence between the name of the proposed Mosque and the history
...behind Cordoba Spain. --- ??? kinda weird ???

[Protege v2.5]

Once again, it's called common decency. Apparently you missed that part of humanity class.

That's unfortunately something extremely rare, especially in the US. That being said the only reason why this is even an issue is because the good ol' president had to get involved and then the news ran with story. Can they yes, should they no. Once again an issue of race/religion has gotten so blown out of proportion is ****ing ridiculous.

[Got Insulin?]

Originally Posted by rodder

and just for the record, I'm completely against zoning laws. Especially the byzantine sort that can be found in NYC.

Don't be. Zoning is what keeps me from building a crematory that backs right up to your yard.

[rodder]

Originally Posted by Got Insulin?

Don't be. Zoning is what keeps me from building a crematory that backs right up to your yard.

hmm, good point. I may have to reconsider that stance.

what I do know is that the zoning laws in place in NYC seem to have more to do with allowing politicians to lean on and influence property owners than actually helping to keep the peace and take people's feelings into consideration.

[420sx]

Originally Posted by rodder

Yeah, sorry. People can get a little condescending when their opinions are called ridiculous, biased and off-base by someone who doesn't know what they're talking about and even acknowledges so AFTER they're done ridiculing everyone they don't agree with.

Your point of views are still ridiculous, biased and off based, I just dont care to argue them. I can see youre clearly willing to put far more time into a rebuttal than I am, and while Im more than capable of putting together a response to all the jibber jabber you put together, I really just dont care to.

Last time I checked, "common decency" wasnt the presidents job to enforce. Zoning issues aside, theres no reason they shouldnt be allowed to build there. Whether or not it "offends people" is irrelevant. Common decency is a fairytale ideology that exists only in a perfect world.

[rodder]

Originally Posted by 420sx

Your point of views are still ridiculous, biased and off based, I just dont care to argue them. I can see youre clearly willing to put far more time into a rebuttal than I am, and while Im more than capable of putting together a response to all the jibber jabber you put together, I really just dont care to.

Last time I checked, "common decency" wasnt the presidents job to enforce. Zoning issues aside, theres no reason they shouldnt be allowed to build there. Whether or not it "offends people" is irrelevant. Common decency is a fairytale ideology that exists only in a perfect world.

thanks for admitting you're an inconsiderate asshole. At least now I know where you're coming from.

I guess you wouldn't mind Got Insulin's point and would be perfectly OK with someone building a crematory that backs up to your yard. You don't like dead bodies being burned so close to your house? Sorry, according to you, those feelings are irrelevant. A rabbi has a problem with a strip club being built next to his synagouge? Sorry, those feelings don't and shouldn't matter to anyone, at least according to 420sx.

Common decency is called such because, guess what, it's considered to be COMMON. If you were brought up to think that other people's feelings are of no importance I really feel sorry for you. I could list examples of common decency that I see and read about every day, but according to you they don't exist, so I won't.

[james_ls]

Originally Posted by 420sx

Last time I checked, "common decency" wasnt the presidents job to enforce. Zoning issues aside, theres no reason they shouldnt be allowed to build there. Whether or not it "offends people" is irrelevant. Common decency is a fairytale ideology that exists only in a perfect world.

Which is FAR from the U.S.A.

IF it does get built it will be CONSTANTLY vandalized, assaulted, and so on.

GUARANTEED!

[420sx]

Originally Posted by rodder

Common decency is called such because, guess what, it's considered to be COMMON.

what planet did you say you were living on?

[rodder]

if there is a planet in which being considerate and courteous is still actually considered "common" (as it was here at one time, at least before the selfish and inconsiderate behavior you've displayed had become the predominant attitude) I would love to live there.