The official TST I like guns thread.

[Munky]

Originally Posted by Subie_sleeper

I'll chime in since my post in ask the law started this.

I'm tempted to PM Sarge & Bane to get their take on the question AND the situation that occurred after the apparent misinformation was posted.

I can't fathom why certain townships / individual officers would KNOWINGLY tell a citizen that they are required by law to do do something that they are in fact, NOT required to do. SMH

Because sadly a good 98% (possibly a lot closer to 99.5%) of officers don't know the law as well as they would like to think they do. I recently graduated with a degree in criminal justice and one of my instructors was a retired LEO from a county close by for 30+ years and you would be amazed at how much knowledge I dropped on him that pertained to citizens and their gun rights. He had no clue of how "out of the loop" he was on them. He has since started studying up more on them so he doesn't spread anymore misinformation to his students.

[Munky]

Also for all you guys looking to jump into 1911's on the cheap I have a Para Ordinance GI Expert with a bunch of accessories I'm selling on the cheap. Hit me up via PM for more info.

[Bane]

Originally Posted by Munky

Because sadly a good 98% (possibly a lot closer to 99.5%) of officers don't know the law as well as they would like to think they do. I recently graduated with a degree in criminal justice and one of my instructors was a retired LEO from a county close by for 30+ years and you would be amazed at how much knowledge I dropped on him that pertained to citizens and their gun rights. He had no clue of how "out of the loop" he was on them. He has since started studying up more on them so he doesn't spread anymore misinformation to his students.

Let's just look at that statement from a rational point of view

There are approx 800,000 law enforcement officers employed in the united states between state, local and federal.

So you are saying that only about 4000 cops in the entire country really know what they are talking about?

Let's bring it down to an even more grave situation, there are about 40,000 sworn police officers in the state of Pennsylvania myself included. That would mean only a couple hundred of us have any idea what's going on..... across the entire state.

And you chumped a trained, experienced and PAID instructor with your vast knowledge of gun rights information? I've been to a lot of training and every once in a great while you can drop a little morsel of obscure info the teach might not have stored away in his cranium but for the most part these guys have forgotten more information then you the student know.

Let's all step back from generalizing assumptions about law enforcement after having a shot go across our 2nd amendment bow. A incorrect statement was made, noted and corrected and now the world can happily keep spinning.

[rodder]

Originally Posted by Bane

A incorrect statement was made, noted and corrected and now the world can happily keep spinning.

Ya know, if that's all it was I would agree with you. But the fact is this type of thing happens with shocking regularity across the country. Considering the amount of lawsuits and court decisions that have already come up because of a misunderstanding of firearm law you'd think you guys would start being a little more accepting of the fact that it's possible you don't know every law there is.

The know-it-all attitude you've displayed in your response here isn't doing you any favors.

[Munky]

Originally Posted by Bane

Let's just look at that statement from a rational point of view

There are approx 800,000 law enforcement officers employed in the united states between state, local and federal.

So you are saying that only about 4000 cops in the entire country really know what they are talking about?

Let's bring it down to an even more grave situation, there are about 40,000 sworn police officers in the state of Pennsylvania myself included. That would mean only a couple hundred of us have any idea what's going on..... across the entire state.

And you chumped a trained, experienced and PAID instructor with your vast knowledge of gun rights information? I've been to a lot of training and every once in a great while you can drop a little morsel of obscure info the teach might not have stored away in his cranium but for the most part these guys have forgotten more information then you the student know.

Let's all step back from generalizing assumptions about law enforcement after having a shot go across our 2nd amendment bow. A incorrect statement was made, noted and corrected and now the world can happily keep spinning.

Originally Posted by rodder

Ya know, if that's all it was I would agree with you. But the fact is this type of thing happens with shocking regularity across the country. Considering the amount of lawsuits and court decisions that have already come up because of a misunderstanding of firearm law you'd think you guys would start being a little more accepting of the fact that it's possible you don't know every law there is.

The know-it-all attitude you've displayed in your response here isn't doing you any favors.

^^^This pretty much sums up what I was going to respond with. Bane you might be one of the select few that does understand more of the gun laws compared to your brethren. I applaud you for that because as I stated you are one of the very few. Unfortunately there is an extremely vast minority of you out there. I am around LEO's on a daily basis (new & old) and I can't tell you how many of them have no idea when it comes to simple gun ownership laws/rights. I mean even the most basic knowledge of knowing that it is completely legal to OC in PA WITHOUT a LTCF (disregarding vehicles/certain buildings/areas (parks/school zones/etc.)) escapes many of these men & women.

It's a sad but true fact that departments all over aren't keeping their officers up to date on a more regular basis. Hell just look at some of the most recent occurances in Philadelphia. The vast majority of those officers were required to have the updated training and failed to do so. They claim time/availability/etc are their reasoning for not being updated. Well then it is a matter of their superiors/jurisdictions to make them available for it.

[SvicksTc]

Originally Posted by Bane

Let's all step back from generalizing assumptions about law enforcement after having a shot go across our 2nd amendment bow. A incorrect statement was made, noted and corrected and now the world can happily keep spinning.

Generalizing, Yes! However, when you look around the country in terms of actually knowledgeable LEO's, the VAST majority abuse their authority and interpret the law in terms of what their opinion of the law is.

Its a sad world when people fear the police more than they feel they are "protecting and serving"

In terms of 2A encounters with LEO's, you see way more reports of BAD encounters than good. (I have a mixed experience, good and bad, and it all goes back to the cop either abusing his authority and making up his own statues, and the other cop actually being respectful and listening before making accusations and threats)

Im sure we could all argue alllll day about this... and it will not get us anywhere

[cmr076]

Bane bashing... im going to sit back and watch this one.. id say there is a 98% chance he kicks all your asses off duty. Hes a big mother****er.

[cmr076]

Originally Posted by SvicksTc

In terms of 2A encounters with LEO's, you see way more reports of BAD encounters than good. (I have a mixed experience, good and bad, and it all goes back to the cop either abusing his authority and making up his own statues, and the other cop actually being respectful and listening before making accusations and threats

Steve, think for a second though. You NEVER (or almost never) hear of good encounters on forums, except PAFOA (but i am convinced half the **** on there is made up). The BAD encounters on the other hand get posted everywhere which is why you would think there are so many more of them. I deal with the same thing in my line of work. People are a LOT more likely to post negative experiences with seller on internet forums than positive experiences because they EXPECT the experience to be of a positive nature.

[SvicksTc]

^^^No I agree with that, and I too believe half the **** on that site is made up too, lol.

It does not help, that most 2A guys have a stigma against cops right off the bat, due to this common trend.

Like I said, I personally have have had a mixed experience, however, my sample size for that statistic is small with only 2 ha.

UMMM Now back to GUNS:

Glock 19 vs. Glock 26 (Spent about 4-5 hours polishing the barrel, I have quite a few more and then off to the polishing wheel)

The condition of the G26 was excellent besides the wear on the barrel..Still not sure if its due to lack of oil that was on the barrel? When I got my G19 off of Dave there was not a mark on the barrel, since my ownership there is still none? I see tons of Glocks with the barrel wear, but my G19 never wore off. Im assuming this is due to how lubricated i kept the barrel?



Plans are extended parts like I did to the G19, Trijicon NS, oh and run it hard


My Sexxy Girlfriend Comparing 2 (She likes the G19 better, and bet she could out shoot some of you ;) )



Lefty, Right eye dominant and picked up fast over a year ago

[cmr076]

more pics of the blonde... NOW!

[92awdtsi]

Originally Posted by SvicksTc

My Sexxy Girlfriend Comparing 2 (She likes the G19 better, and bet she could out shoot some of you ;) )



Lefty, Right eye dominant and picked up fast over a year ago

i thought that was kristen, i saw her post those on facebook the other day. small world. ask her if she knows andrew gody

[SvicksTc]

Originally Posted by cmr076

more pics of the blonde... NOW!

Haha, Ive been trying to get her to let me take some pics of her with the AR, no luck yet, lol

All i have is crappy cell phone vids of her shooting the G19 and AR a few months back

I mean look at that....form ;)

Originally Posted by 92awdtsi

i thought that was kristen, i saw her post those on facebook the other day. small world. ask her if she knows andrew gody

Indeed, and will do..She seems to know a ton of people so I am sure she does

[92awdtsi]

yea, we've known each other since like 5th grade or some ****. you 2 and me and my gf gotta go shoot sometime

[~Brian~]

Originally Posted by cmr076

more pics of the blonde... NOW!

[DC2.2GSR]

Originally Posted by Bane

...

Let's all step back from generalizing assumptions about law enforcement after having a shot go across our 2nd amendment bow. A incorrect statement was made, noted and corrected and now the world can happily keep spinning.

It would be a completely different story if that guy just made a dumb statement in an open area of the forum where he could be corrected by one of us who actually knows and understands the laws regarding firearms. He didn't. He has been given the "TST officer power" to respond to posts in a locked section of the forum, where someone was asking for advice about legally transporting a firearm. Later on in the same thread, he made some asinine comments about how he'd better inform officers that he's carrying. The fact of the matter is that PA is not a "must inform" state, and the fact that someone is carrying a weapon while being written a traffic citation is about as relevant as whether that same individual is wearing underwear or not. It's simply none of the officer's business. Informing an officer that you're armed when it's completely irrelevant to the situation is just about the dumbest thing you can do. There's a damn good chance that you'll end up with your rights violated and at very least end up being late to wherever you're going. That's because like Munky said, the number of officers who actually know and understand firearm laws in this state is very small. The number of officers who understand the law AND respect an individual's right to carry AND will respond correctly and in favor of the armed individual is next to nothing.

In the same thread, the "officer in question" went on to explain how counties in the state are able to make their own laws/rules/regs about firearms by saying that Del. county has a 'must inform' requirement simply because they hand out some sort of ridiculous flyer when they issue a LTCF. That's dead wrong. The UFA restricts local govt. from making any law regarding firearms. That's what all of the preemption cases are about.

He even responded to a previous thread about guns and told the person that open carry was legal, but not in Philly, and said something like "don't even think about trying it". lol. When I PMed the guy about his incorrect posts, he responded in a way that I've come to expect from police officers, with the attitude that I'm wrong and he's right simply because he's 'the police' and he knows, and that everything I said is just my opinion. He also called me "just a subject with a Permit". Asshole.

Nothing was corrected, his posts remain the way he wrote them (misinformation and ridiculous opinions included), and he still remains a TST police officer, free to give advice from a figurative position of authority here on the forum.

Bane - you may be an educated, decent and generally good police officer. In fact, I don't doubt for a minute that you are. You've shown us in this thread as well as many other non-gun related threads. You may know plenty of officers like yourself. However, there's no getting around the fact that officers like you are relatively few and far between when you consider the number of police officers in this state (which you posted), and around the country.

[Subie_sleeper]

Yeah....
My thread IS still unchanged.
I'm not going in there any more. lol

Perhaps you (Bane) could confirm or refute the questions that have come up?

If you don't want to step on anyone's toes, I completely understand.

[Bane]

I unfortunately missed the debacle that started in that thread, it was overflowing the dam when I arrived on scene but you had posted that you received the correct information which is the total opposite of what he posted. What 204 posted was more of a suggestion to how he recommended a situation with a firearm be handled, he just did it in a force it down your throat type of way which is very undiplomatic. 204 works in a HORRIBLE area, the man deals with situations that can get him killed everyday. Not saying it can't happen to any officer but he has to step his game up in every situation because it can go south with the quickness where he works. Guns where he comes from means something did, is or will happen and he can't afford to take the chance so he comes heavy with it plain and simple it keeps him and his partners alive. He took that mentality and dropped it onto a automotive forum, a situation where he can chain the dogs up and just answer what needs to be answered and he failed to do so. It went down wrong and just got messy, plain and simple.

NO you DO NOT have to tell me you have a weapon on your person or in your vehicle if I stop you.

If I am taking you out of the car for any reason use whatever judgment you feel is necessary for the situation to go smoothly. That is not me saying you have to handle yourself any specific way I'm just saying think ahead to how the situation might play out and if you think its a good time to let the officer know you have a weapon on you then do so, if not so be it. I am going to conduct myself the way I always do regardless of what you decide, if you have a gun on you and the situation dictates it I'm going to find it anyway. This DOES NOT mean I am going to go off the handle and you will eat pavement, BUT what it will mean is that if I am hands on with you and it is now apparent you are carrying a weapon the course of events that follow may not go down how you want them, but that is something you have no choice but to deal with. It is IMPOSSIBLE to describe the exact course of events for every scenario an person with a LTCF and an officer can go through, there will always be an unhappy customer but this is a situation that we deal with.

I work in PA, I deal with people carrying guns all the time never once has anyone ever filed a complaint against me for my conduct or actions in a situation where I disarmed an individual who was lawfully carrying (strangely non of these positive situations has ended up on YouTube nor have any of the others I have been involved in with other officers). I probably own more guns that all of you combined. I have more automatic weapons than our regional swat team, I belong to the NRA, I attend 3 gun competitions, I go the the Knob Creek machine gun shoot every year I ****ing love guns! BUT ill tell you what, there is not a more arrogant, self righteous, "we know our rights **** off and die" group of individuals than gun owners. I can take away someones god given right of freedom easier than I can secure a weapon on an individual who I am putting into the back of my police car. Second amendment supporters are the quickest to jump on the soap box and declare their rights while at the same time condemning other actions as "hasty and forced" when they themselves will immediately take a stand and are the last to have a civil discussion with someone. Lines like "well im the police" can be replaced with "well its my right" and "I need you to cooperate" can be replaced with "you don't understand". Luckily for me I have the testicular fortitude of a Greek God and I can tolerate said situations and they can be resolved amicably, with or without the help of the other individual.

[Bane]

I could type for hours with scenarios and discussion topics and rebuttals to statements people are undoubtedly going to make but frankly it will be futile. Trying to get across all the points I could make for both sides of this argument would be lost in translation.

If you guys want to have a constructive discussion im all for it just lay some questions out there.

[Subie_sleeper]

Bane,

That was EXACTLY what I was hoping for. A level-headed & well thought out response that pretty much covered all the bases that I originally asked.

I know the area that "204" works in.... I wouldn't take my BEATER car through there after dark.

Thanks very much for putting the facts down & explaining things from your point of view in a reasonable way.

Sincerely,
Rob W.

[SvicksTc]

Originally Posted by Bane

I work in PA, I deal with people carrying guns all the time never once has anyone ever filed a complaint against me for my conduct or actions in a situation where I disarmed an individual who was lawfully carrying (strangely non of these positive situations has ended up on YouTube nor have any of the others I have been involved in with other officers). I probably own more guns that all of you combined. I have more automatic weapons than our regional swat team, I belong to the NRA, I attend 3 gun competitions, I go the the Knob Creek machine gun shoot every year I ****ing love guns! BUT ill tell you what, there is not a more arrogant, self righteous, "we know our rights **** off and die" group of individuals than gun owners. I can take away someones god given right of freedom easier than I can secure a weapon on an individual who I am putting into the back of my police car. Second amendment supporters are the quickest to jump on the soap box and declare their rights while at the same time condemning other actions as "hasty and forced" when they themselves will immediately take a stand and are the last to have a civil discussion with someone. Lines like "well im the police" can be replaced with "well its my right" and "I need you to cooperate" can be replaced with "you don't understand". Luckily for me I have the testicular fortitude of a Greek God and I can tolerate said situations and they can be resolved amicably, with or without the help of the other individual.

Bane, the response you gave is the response we wish to hear every officer give, lol.

I emphasized some funnys

Now lets see some pictures of these highly illegal automatic weapons you speak of...