Toyota Sabotaged?

[OBEEWON]

Just to play devils advocate and stimulate good convo.

Originally Posted by itsSTock69

I see the pattern and take the same stance. I'm a car enthusiast first, fan of certain makes second. I also think that when people are dying there needs to be some accountability, especially when some of those deaths could have been prevented.

I agree. I def think those who lost family need some type of compensation however. But I don't remember that happening in any other instance.

But, can you recall any such incident recieving so much attention? Car rollovers, faulty breaks, tire failures etc. (and there have been many!)

Originally Posted by itsSTock69

The possiblility of foul play always exists, but the risk far outweighs the reward in this instance.

This is probably what most people base thier reasoning on. Who is going to hold them accountable (supposing this is true)? No one. Not Japan (last thing they need are trade sanctions), not the supreme court, no government agency...there are no consequences only HUGE benifits for the billions they spent to be returned and then some.

With Toyota gone there is a 2nd best seller spot up for grabs worth BILLIONS.

Originally Posted by itsSTock69

This has become, and was always going to become, a high profile incident, imagine the backlash if it were to come out that it was all by the government's doing.

Even if it did, as did past situations, it would be down played or passed off as a conspiracy.

Originally Posted by itsSTock69

Just because Toyota can't fully explain why this is happening doesn't discount the fact that it is. It's like saying you can't figure out a math problem with multiple steps, so some of the steps must not exist.

Very true. But if you wrote the problem AND the solution WHY CAN'T YOU SHOW YOUR WORK?? Unless you don't know how you did it...

[JST2KWIK]

Personally, I do not think it is a conspiracy. The government would have to have it's own people within Toyota or Toyota's people in their pockets somehow which although is totally possible, I don't think it makes sense. Just as was stated before, Toyota makes a lot of its cars in the United States (the Toyota Sienna is the third car on Automobile magazine's list of the percentage of cars made in the U.S. with like 83% of production/assembly done here), beat out only by the Grand Marquis and Crown Victoria at like 89%).

With that said, producing cars in the U.S. increases our GDP! Increasing our GDP helps benefit our economy! I do not doubt for a second that there are conspiracies surrounding our entrance into various wars (what weapons of mass destruction?), but if the effort here is to save U.S. jobs by keeping GM afloat and help our economy, I can't see the government hurting our economy to do that. REMEMBER: Toyota provides U.S. jobs, contributes to our GDP, and greatly impacts our economy. If Toyota went under, the U.S.'s GDP would fall, thousands of jobs would be lost, and our economy would be negatively affected.

I do not totally dismiss the theory OBEE, but I just don't see the government cutting off it's ring finger to save the index.

[itsSTock69]

Originally Posted by OBEEWON

I agree. I def think those who lost family need some type of compensation however. But I don't remember that happening in any other instance.

But, can you recall any such incident recieving so much attention? Car rollovers, faulty breaks, tire failures etc. (and there have been many!)

To be fair, off the top of my head the only large-scale one with this many deaths that I can remember is the Ford/Firestone incident. Another article referenced the Honda Fit, but if I recall correctly, there was only one death attributed to it. As I said in the other thread, I think the reason that this issue has become so big has a lot to do with the number of deaths compared to other incidents as well as the growing belief that Toyota attempted a cover up. There also has to be some shock that the model of automotive success would be the one to make such a grave mistake.

Originally Posted by OBEEWON

This is probably what most people base thier reasoning on. Who is going to hold them accountable (supposing this is true)? No one. Not Japan (last thing they need are trade sanctions), not the supreme court, no government agency...there are no consequences only HUGE benifits for the billions they spent to be returned and then some.

With Toyota gone there is a 2nd best seller spot up for grabs worth BILLIONS.

Even if it did, as did past situations, it would be down played or passed off as a conspiracy.

I think that the media would run away with the story if it were to come out that the US government deliberately sabatoged Toyota's vehicles. You could argue that the government would try to gag the US media, but there are other outlets to push the issue. I also think that Japan would definitely hold the government accountable, after all, sanctions related to their outcry would only serve to bolster their position. I'm sure the WTO wouldn't be happy with such a situation either.

Originally Posted by OBEEWON

Very true. But if you wrote the problem AND the solution WHY CAN'T YOU SHOW YOUR WORK?? Unless you don't know how you did it...

Unless it is a variable that you didn't account for. I won't pretend to know about computer programing because I don't, but it is possible that something was done incorrectly or overlooked.

[jpalamar]

Originally Posted by turboman808

If you guys can recall that jeeps were the biggest culprits for the car driving high speed out of control. The reason is the pedals are pushed to the side to make room for the transfer case. People were pressing the gas thinking it was the brake and flying down the street killing people and themselves.

The part wasn't defective. It may have not been ergonomical, but hitting the gas for a split second then realizing your a dumb ass and hit the wrong pedal is completly different then it just stright not working. This is driver mod not car issue

Originally Posted by Fujito

As of now this is all just a conspiracy theory. There are no facts to back anything up.

I wouldn't be surprised if the US government had something to do with all of this. Governments commit evils for the greater good sometimes... Pearl Harbor, 911, and... Toyota crashing and burning? Hmm I dunno. All conspiracy theories, right?

Oh, and before anyone takes that Pearl Harbor comment out of context, I'm referring to the theories that state the Government knew about the attack and allowed it to gain a legitimate entrance into the war.

Last time I checked, there are cars being recalled that are older then the goverment takeover of GM...

[itsSTock69]

JST2KWIK's raises another good point as to why this would not be a good move for the government. They'd be hurting themselves to try and save face on a move that they did not absolutely have to make in the first place. In fact the general concensus seemed to be screw GM and Chrysler, let them sleep in the bed they made.

[OBEEWON]

Originally Posted by itsSTock69

You said the death was greatly played up. If I misinterpreted that statement, then I appologize.

Cool.

Originally Posted by itsSTock69

I am putting my pre-concieved notions aside. As I said in my previous post, I am a fan of cars first, certain makes second. If I were a domestic nuthugger as you seem to be implying, then why in the world would I drive a glorified Honda Accord. There are cars from every single make I would love to own or at the very least drive someday, so yeah, that comment doesn't hold any water.

No. I do not mean to imply that. Im not sure which comment made you think so. I just noticed your avatar btw.

Everyone try to keep this objective and not personal.

Originally Posted by itsSTock69

And Ford did get raked over the coals, just as Toyota is now. They went in front of Congress and were blasted for what they did too.

Ford actually was not the issue and they did not have questions to answer. The issue was with Firestone tires. A completely different company they had a contract with.

Originally Posted by JST2KWIK

With that said, producing cars in the U.S. increases our GDP! ...REMEMBER: Toyota provides U.S. jobs, contributes to our GDP, and greatly impacts our economy.
I do not totally dismiss the theory OBEE, but I just don't see the government cutting off it's ring finger to save the index.

VERY good point. Something I did not consider.


As far as media goes: FCC regulatory body as well as who owns most media outlets.

The media is more concerned with snow than 8 year old boys being molested on web cams in Durham. But that's another topic.

[itsSTock69]

Originally Posted by OBEEWON

No. I do not mean to imply that. Im not sure which comment made you think so. I just noticed your avatar btw.

"If you could possibly put all pre concieved notions and biases aside a rational person would have to admit there are some facts that lead to more possibilities."

Originally Posted by OBEEWON

Ford actually was not the issue and they did not have questions to answer. The issue was with Firestone tires. A completely different company they had a contract with.

Ford was part of the issue though. They were found to have improper testing procedures and issues with the truck design itself. On top of that there was internal information stating knowledge of the problem without taking steps to rectify it and give notice to the public. This was brought to light during the congressional hearings that took place as a result of the issue.

Originally Posted by OBEEWON

The media is more concerned with snow than 8 year old boys being molested on web cams in Durham. But that's another topic.

Typically I'd agree, it is rather sick where the media places it's priorities. Weather I can at least somewhat understand though, as unfortunately(or rather, fortunately) the snow has a more widespread impact on more people than the web cams. In this instance however, I think the media would make a big deal about it, in part because of what a circus the current incident has become.

[TNTramair]

what i dont understand is Ford actually had 200+ related deaths to their "fire" issue last year and not to mention the whole Firestone fiasco. they didnt have to go through nearly as much crap as Toyota is having to deal with right now. its like with Ford, the situation was spoken about and pretty much non existant 3 days later. that would lead 1 to believe theres more going on here. you didnt hear the guy the leads the NHTSA go on TV and tell everyone with a FORD not to drive their vehicles and take them into the Dealer immediatly. its just all too conveniant that this would be happening now along with everything else thats going on in the automotive industry.

did anyone notice that the Nissan Rogue has 9 recalls?? they have more on a single vehicle than Toyota has across the board...yet you dont hear anything about that on the news. its crazy.

[Bender]

what i dont understand is Ford actually had 200+ related deaths to their "fire" issue last year

I would be interested to see a link to this - i had heard there was only 1.

[itsSTock69]

Originally Posted by TNTramair

what i dont understand is Ford actually had 200+ related deaths to their "fire" issue last year and not to mention the whole Firestone fiasco. they didnt have to go through nearly as much crap as Toyota is having to deal with right now. its like with Ford, the situation was spoken about and pretty much non existant 3 days later. that would lead 1 to believe theres more going on here. you didnt hear the guy the leads the NHTSA go on TV and tell everyone with a FORD not to drive their vehicles and take them into the Dealer immediatly. its just all too conveniant that this would be happening now along with everything else thats going on in the automotive industry.

did anyone notice that the Nissan Rogue has 9 recalls?? they have more on a single vehicle than Toyota has across the board...yet you dont hear anything about that on the news. its crazy.

I don't understand why you guys keep saying the Ford issue was over so quickly. My memory is somewhat hazy of the events, back then I was younger and if it wasn't an exotic I didn't pay much attention, but I remember it being talked about for a while. I've also asked people at work and my house about the Ford/Firestone incident since this thread started, all people that couldn't give a rats ass about cars, and they all remembered the issue being plastered all over the media and taking more than a few days to dissipate. In the other thread I looked up how many Ford fire-related deaths there were and it was only one. The number of fires, 550 is disgusting, but they were only attributed to one death.

I don't know anything about the Rouge recalls, but how many deaths/injuries have come as a result of the issue? What were the recalls for as well, trivial things or something serious? That may or may not have a factor in why the coverage isn't as great. I'd place some blame on the media too. This fiasco with Toyota is one of the "it" topics of the moment, so they're going to run it into the ground and get what ratings they can.

[BerlinaS2k]

FWIW, I was reading the new Consumer reports Car Buying Magazine yesterday. The top 5 'Most Reliable' used cars...4 Toyotas and a Lexus.

Now back to the debate....

[itsSTock69]

The same Consumer Reports that lists brand new Toyotas as "good buys" whereas other makes are given "too new to be tested"...

[Bender]

I don't understand why you guys keep saying the Ford issue was over so quickly. My memory is somewhat hazy of the events, back then I was younger and if it wasn't an exotic I didn't pay much attention, but I remember it being talked about for a while. I've also asked people at work and my house about the Ford/Firestone incident since this thread started, all people that couldn't give a rats ass about cars, and they all remembered the issue being plastered all over the media and taking more than a few days to dissipate

It was months that it was an issue, not too dissimilar than now.

[jdubs]

Originally Posted by Renegade_

When the car starts running away, why don't people put it in neutral?

Really, this boggled my mind. I dont get how a defect like this could kill anyone who knows how a car functions on a basic level.

If it happens unexpectedly, most people are unprepared and panic, precluding them from even the simplest of logical thought processes. They likely either freeze up or hit the brakes.

Neutral would be the logical thing to do, but without training it would not be the first thing the average person thinks.

Don't underestimate people's ignorance.

I would still only consider either Toyota or Honda for my next car. Nissan bit the dust after my z was built, probably because of it, and Renault has only prolonged their downfall. The American car manufacturers have followed suit. It's a shame, because my '92 GM Oldsmobile went 185K and was still going when it was totaled, but the newer GM's cars seem cheap in comparison.

[ndubz]

Is it out of the realm of possibility??? No...

But I dont think theres too much evidence for that idea yet. However if it does wind up boosting sales of american cars to a huge degree, then it could be quite possible. (in the same way that the Iraq war allowed the saudis to raise their oil's prices a huge amount, thus bringing in a ****load of extra profit for them, the Bush family, and all their Texas oil buddies...... but thats not being discussed here is it )

[Proven]

To me its just another major recall. I think if any of us worked at a dealer and had a car come in for "sticky gas pedal" or "i hit the gas and it stayed on" the first thing most of us would check is if the floor mat was catching. If the mat was catching or if we could recreate it catching - problem solved. Last thing we'd check is the electrical system.. Unfortunately, in this case it was more then just pedals sticking.

The media got a hold of THAT ^ story and raised a bunch of startling questions and theories for good TV. If an investigation wasn't initiated, the new story would be Obama grew up down the street from Mr. Toyota.

Naturally, American car Companies would love to see Japanese car Companies go away (those job's Toyota creates could now be given by USDM). I don't think they set anything up but wouldn't be surprised to see USDM car Companies start donating money to some media outlets.

[Honest_Bob]

Hell yeah its a conspiracy. I bet every one of you that thinks its not also believes we landed on the moon. Suckers!

[OBEEWON]

Lol...........

[OBEEWON]

Turns out the man who's Prius ran away for 30min and hit as high as 94mph was lying.

dun dun dun...

[marshallpre1]

Originally Posted by OBEEWON

Turns out the man who's Prius ran away for 30min and hit as high as 94mph was lying.

dun dun dun...

Sorry officer, my Supra hit 150 on the highway because of unintended acceleration...