Cliff Lee for Roy Halladay?

[c0nfl1kt]

Originally Posted by evomike

Pedro has no idea about arm stamina bringing him up is foolish, so your good with a pitcher for one year rather then getting a pitcher who is great and sign a multiple year deal to not like the trade is foolish Halliday is amazing.

I doubt he has any say on arm stamina since he pitches 100% on every pitch and will walk circles around any pitcher out there when it comes to the actual art of pitching. He can't hit upper 80's all day, but he is incredibly smart and competitive. There aren't many like him left in the game and if keeping someone like him, who can not only compete, but can also teach, is foolish then put me right in your fool column.

[silver01lude]

Update on trade: Phils would get Halladay and 2 prospects from Seattle. Seattle gets Lee. Toronto gets a pitching prospect from Seattle, minor league catcher Travis d'Arnoud from the Phillies, and another Phils prospect yet to be named.

Phils are working on a 3 yr/$70mil extension with 1 or 2 year option for Halladay.

[DPancoast]

I really wish I knew more about this stuff, but it seems like a bad idea?

One of the games I went to everyone was heckling Halladay lol... but again, I know nothing, so oh well.

[evomike]

Halliday is the beat pitcher in baseball right now. Halliday is older and doesn't wanna stuck around how is it a bad deal what am I missing?

[97TurboDSM]

i dont like this one bit. the better deal would have been to give up Happ, taylor and brown for halladay. if lee thinks hes better off in seattle then he's an idiot because that sure as **** isnt true. phillies should have dumped hamels to be honest. hamels has proven that winning isnt a #1 priority and thats simply unacceptable. lee walked the phillies right into the world series and put up the only two wins of the world series and the phils are gonna dump him? come on.

[c0nfl1kt]

Halladay just seems like a stuck up white boy. $70,000,000 for 3 years is a LOT of money. They could easy give Lee $10,000,000 for one year. ****, they'd be saving money!

[silver01lude]

Originally Posted by c0nfl1kt

Halladay just seems like a stuck up white boy. $70,000,000 for 3 years is a LOT of money. They could easy give Lee $10,000,000 for one year. ****, they'd be saving money!

I dont think Lee would have signed for that. Hes gona be lookin for CC money, and his agent will see to it that it gets done, thats why he wants to test the market next year. I agree, 22+ mil a year is a lot for Halladay, they'd hafta give Lee at least 20 a year to keep him after next season. Plus, I dont think this move was about saving money, it was to sure up the front of the rotation for the next few years.

We only have the Yankees to thank for this money situation, I mean when u give a piss poor guy like AJ Burnett 17mil a year, u gotta expect guys like Halladay and Lee to demand way more.

[doug]

nothing is in ink yet.. 610 WIP just reported theres a few different scenarios that can still go down, so don't say Lee is outta here just yet. I'd love to see him and halladay as a 1-2 punch and get another WS title this upcoming season.

[EKLIPZGSX97]

Looking at it from strictly a money situation... We CAN'T afford them both. If they're working out any kind of long term deal with Halladay, it's gonan deplete our bank account for the next couple years... Don't forget, we have guys like Werth, Ibanez, Howard and Utley coming up for arbitration after this next season.

You've gotta figure Utley and Howard are "Must Sign" guys, they are basically our franchise players. I can see them letting Ibanez go, and maybe Werth too. We already tendered contracts to Victorino & Chooch. We could afford to to keep the 1-2 of Halladay and Lee for this season and they we'd be busted, Lee would test the free agent market and Halladay would do the same. We would HAVE to win the WS in 2010 or it would completely **** the team for years to come. And even then it still might.

I'm all for keeping Lee and getting Halladay, but if it had to come down to one or the other...that is where I see differently from everyone else. Everyone says Halladay is the best pitcher in baseball. Well, looking at his stats, 2003 was the BEST year of his 12 year career. Not to mention the fact that he hasn't swung a bat regularly in 12 years, now coming to ther NL he has to hit... Cliff could hit, field, pitch, steal bases and scratch his ass without breaking a sweat... I'm just getting the feeling that Halladay is gonna end up a lame, primadonna pitcher that cried because he wanted out of a sucky team. What happens if the Phils lose core guys in the coming seasons? is he gonna stay dedicated? or are you gonna lose $70M because he doesn't like out record?

THOSE are the things GM's need to think about, not win %'s ERA's and stats... Character should play a huge part in it

[/ My .02] lol

[evomike]

We can afford them both without blantons salary check your facts.

[Fbomb]

Originally Posted by c0nfl1kt

We have a bunch of mediocre left handers. Hamels isn't the same pitcher he was. He proved that ALL post season and most of the regular season. Happ isn't a dependable starter. Who else can start besides those two that are lefties? We have a great right hander in Pedro and average ones in Blanton and Durbin. We need that STRONG left arm of Lee, not the doubtful left arm of Hamels.

Hamels was WS MVP! He'll bounce back...Happ was pretty damn dependable last year! Pedro might be gone next year...

Originally Posted by TROLL

I'm not happy about all this, just looking at the reality of the situation.

Oh, and if Lee wanted to win he would have stayed with the Phils.

Troof! Basically Lee said, I'll wait and see what the Yankees offer me next year. I was mad at first, but looking on the bright side now.

Originally Posted by c0nfl1kt

Halladay just seems like a stuck up white boy. $70,000,000 for 3 years is a LOT of money. They could easy give Lee $10,000,000 for one year. ****, they'd be saving money!

Doc is one of the most charitable players out there! Lee wouldn't take any offers...Why would he take 10 mil if someone will offer him a guaranteed 80...

[doug]

hamels is working on another out pitch along with the change up.. a split fastball, apparently he was learning it from Lee. so if he can put another pitch in his arsenal he may have a solid 2010 season if he can stay healthy.

[c0nfl1kt]

Originally Posted by Fbomb

Hamels was WS MVP! He'll bounce back...Happ was pretty damn dependable last year! Pedro might be gone next year...


Troof! Basically Lee said, I'll wait and see what the Yankees offer me next year. I was mad at first, but looking on the bright side now.


Doc is one of the most charitable players out there! Lee wouldn't take any offers...Why would he take 10 mil if someone will offer him a guaranteed 80...

Hamels was WS MVP against a seriously weak and young Tampa Bay team.

Who is DOc and who offered cliff lee $80,000,000/year? The reality of the situation is that no matter how many times you try and cut it it is a bad decision to get rid of the only guy you could basically count on in the post season. Sure, you could argue that some guys will step it up and that the Phils did win 2008 without Lee, but those are the facts. Another "reality" check is that the Yankees are a way stronger team with a lot more momentum going into next season than in the 2008 season, so basically downgrading our team is something that could be looked down upon. Sure, maybe the Phils will be a good fit for Halladay because the rest of the Blue Jays suck except for him, but it's w/e. None of us are claiming to be "armchair" general managers. It is a discussion board and we are discussing it. If you don't want "discussion" in your message board then lock the topic, Troll.

[Fbomb]

Doc is Halladays nickname (I didn't make it up) . What I was basically saying is Lee WOULDN'T agree to any extension offers. He wants to test the FA market at the end of next season and make his 9 mil this year. So that means they'd have to beat out the Yankees (and whoevers) ridiculously high offer at the end of next season. Which could be 80mil guaranteed (total over 4 years). Phills CAN'T do that, they are pretty straight with their budget.

Dude, you never know...2 years ago Lidge was a guy you can count on in the post season...Now look. Same with Hamels. Ish just happens, ppl get into a funk, sometimes they bounce back, sometimes they don't. I have Phaith in Phillies front office!

This is NOT a bad move, maybe a lateral move, but not bad!

[97slocav]

this just in about an hour ago...

If the Phillies and Roy Halladay can agree to a contract extension, here is what we believe could happen before the end of the week:

- The Blue Jays will send Halladay and a reported $6 million to the Phillies.

- The Phillies will send Cliff Lee to the Mariners, and a package to the Blue Jays that sources said includes right-hander Kyle Drabek, outfielder Michael Taylor and catcher Travis d'Arnaud.

- The Mariners will send at least two prospects to the Phillies. One of them is expected to be right-hander Phillippe Aumont.

OK, thoughts?

Here are two things that Phillies fans should like: Halladay is a stud, a step above almost everybody in baseball. Lee pitched great in the postseason, but Halladay's body of work pitching in the American League East is second to none. Halladay also will be in a Phillies uniform beyond 2010. The Phillies clearly felt Lee would not have been. So you guarantee yourself a stud pitcher atop your rotation for a few more years, rather than losing Lee after the season.

But they also could have kept both. If the Mariners are not sending prospects to Toronto, it means these are two totally separate trades. Essentially, the Phillies did not have to trade Lee to acquire Halladay. Of course, there is the issue of payroll. Lee is making $9 million next season, so this provides the Phillies salary relief. But Joe Blanton could make $7 million or more next season. I can't imagine the Phillies are trading Lee over Blanton to save themselves roughly $2 million. No, it looks to me like the Phillies want Seattle's prospects to restock their farm system. But is it worth it? Having Halladay and Lee in the same rotation is no guarantee of a World Series championship, but it sure puts them in excellent position to try.

So go for broke next year knowing the farm system is depleted, or upgrade the rotation with Halladay and hope the prospects from the Mariners soften the blow of losing Drabek, Taylor and d'Arnaud down the road?

[silver01lude]

Originally Posted by c0nfl1kt

Hamels was WS MVP against a seriously weak and young Tampa Bay team.

Hamels also dominated the Dodgers, who were the hottest team going into the postseason in 08. He won games 1 and 5 in that series, and I think he was LCS MVP as well? Not positive on that though. I think now that all that **** in his personal life this past season is done, he can get back to his 08 playoff form. I mean, theres gota be something wrong when the guys the preseason favorite to win the Cy Young, and he finishes with a .500 record and a 4.50+ ERA.

As far as having to give up Drabek in this trade, I don't see why they would have to give up him AND Lee, when the trade last year that was proposed didn't include sending any proven studs to any team. if we could keep Lee this year and get Halladay, well ****, give us the NL trophy now. I'm a little confused now though as to why all of a sudden Halladays price has gone up, when theres relatively low interest in acquiring him outside of Philadelphi(at least it seems that way).

[EKLIPZGSX97]

This just keeps getting worse...

Giving up Drabek and Taylor is even more retarted than giving up Cliff Lee. So now, for the reasons we supposedly didn't wanna do the deal without losing Lee (i.e. depleting our top prospects) we're now doing it AND losing Lee???

If we're gonna **** our farm system, we might as well have had the best 1-2 rotation in the Majors but now that's not even happening... Wow, just Wow...

I think Ruben Amaro has a ****ing man-crush on Halladay or something, his mind is like getting cluttered and he's doing dumb **** to acquire him at any cost.

[TR MS3]

I'm just really sad to see Lee go, guess I'll have to get rid of my "Cliff Lee is my homeboy" shirt. As much as I hate to see him go, I trust the phills and can't wait to see what this season is like.

[silver01lude]

I was all for this trade yesterday, but now that Drabek and Lee hafta go for this to work, it makes absolutely no sense. If ur gona give up Drabek, why not keep Lee? Whats the point of swapping Drabek to Toronto and getting Seattles top pitching prospect? I dont know about the guy theyre gettin, but this just sounds stupid now. They easily coulda cut Seattle outta the trade, kept Lee for this year, and gotten Halladay for the prospects. Instead of us havin the best 1-2 punch in our rotation, were giving Seattle that luxury. These new developments just baffle me, maybe theres something more to it that we dont yet see, but it doesnt seem that way.

[HickRocket1258]

Originally Posted by evomike

Halliday is the beat pitcher in baseball right now. Halliday is older and doesn't wanna stuck around how is it a bad deal what am I missing?

I agree. John Kruk had a point on why he thought it was a good move. He brought up the point where Halladay had a greast season against a very big powerhouse divison. If he can put up those kind of numbers in the American League, I can't imagine how he will do in the National League. I would have to disagree to say it is a bad move.