Obama's plan for Universal Healthcare...opinions

[SpEcRv9]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5...layer_embedded

it's worth the 25 secs

[poolmike]

Originally Posted by Proven

I think it's pretty clear I'm for everyone being able to make money and not being held back by greed and "market".

-If a Company is doing well all employees should reep the benefits, not just the owner. (I'm not saying employee's should get paid the same as owners)

-If a Company is doing poorly everyone should be effected, not just its employEE's.

-If a position within a Company pays/worth X amount of dollars and the Company is doing well the salary should NOT be negotiated down just because there's 500 people applying for the position. Pick the best man/woman for the job and pay them according to the work done and not what you can get away with.

A Business owners salary should not be growing just because the market is bad (when their Company is doing well) and they lower pay less because of it. - Greed.

I dont think EVERY business should go by these ethics because every business has different situations. The owner of any business should without a doubt be making more then everyone within. My issue is with Businesses playing with salaries of employees to increase their personal profits.

What you consistently fail to mention is RISK! Employees have none, Employers have it all. In a free country that you hate so much, you have the ability and choice to patronize or avoid companies and businesses that treat employees in an "unfair" manner. If you are worth so freakin much, and you are unhappy with what you earn now....why would you stay there???? Why not take the risk and start your own business? After all, it IS easy at the top...why not put yourself there?

[Proven]

Originally Posted by poolmike

What you consistently fail to mention is RISK! Employees have none, Employers have it all. In a free country that you hate so much, you have the ability and choice to patronize or avoid companies and businesses that treat employees in an "unfair" manner. If you are worth so freakin much, and you are unhappy with what you earn now....why would you stay there???? Why not take the risk and start your own business? After all, it IS easy at the top...why not put yourself there?

I understand your point Mike, I really do, and I know its not easy work to own/run a Business and that the owner is the one taking all the risk financially. That, and without their effort there wouldn't be the jobs anyway. I think you and Mr. cool and calm are just taking my view and running with it to the extreme. (hopefully you didn't stop reading yet thinking I don't understand and getting ready for your next reply). Me, I'm also taking it to the extreme with making it look like I feel ALL Companies need to pay better etc. etc.. I don't feel that way, and I explained that!

-I DON'T think anyone should get a raise if they are a crappy employee..

-I DON'T think a Business owner should be making what employee's make..

-I DO think every business owner should make as much as they possible can BUT not by playing with employee's salaries. Pay people what they are ethically worth not by what you can get away with or what "free market" allows you to.

In the end NO Company should be lowering their risk or raising their profits based on how they can play with employee's salaries. That's what bugs me.

[FocusDude]

everyone is gonna bitch about it, WTF ya gonna do about it.

I'm hell bent to learn Sestak voted Aye, he promised he was against. No surprise my homeboy Murphy voted for it. November is only a few months away, and although will again vote against Murphy if he is up, his cute smile and good looks will win it again. Yes I'd bet against myself-

[ITSTOCK]

Originally Posted by Proven

I understand your point Mike, I really do, and I know its not easy work to own/run a Business and that the owner is the one taking all the risk financially. That, and without their effort there wouldn't be the jobs anyway. I think you and Mr. cool and calm are just taking my view and running with it to the extreme. (hopefully you didn't stop reading yet thinking I don't understand and getting ready for your next reply). Me, I'm also taking it to the extreme with making it look like I feel ALL Companies need to pay better etc. etc.. I don't feel that way, and I explained that!

-I DON'T think anyone should get a raise if they are a crappy employee..

-I DON'T think a Business owner should be making what employee's make..

-I DO think every business owner should make as much as they possible can BUT not by playing with employee's salaries. Pay people what they are ethically worth not by what you can get away with or what "free market" allows you to.

In the end NO Company should be lowering their risk or raising their profits based on how they can play with employee's salaries. That's what bugs me.

You quite obviously have no clue of how a business works. In a time of recession, or just an economic downturn, it's not smart for any business to assume that profits will stay well above margin. That means it's not smart to pay employee's increased wages over what their field commands. What happens when times get tough and there is little or no cash reserve to pay those bloated salaries? How much crying are you going to do when there are massive layoffs, instead of the cash reserves to maintain employment within a given company? How much crying are the employees going to do when they find out that their already overinflated salary is going to be cut down to a more reasonable level? What happens when you have 1 million people applying for the same job with that increased salary, but are willing to do it for the market price? What happens when the share holders start bitching about profit being down because the $40,000/year salaried employee's are getting $90,000/year? What happens when a company has a lower profit margin and can no longer expand because it's got a bunch of overpaid employees? What happens when no more research can be done because there is little left in the budget, and the company goes belly up 10 years down the road because they didn't spend money on R&D???

Proven, it's also quite obvious that you live in your own little fantasy world. I suggest you open your eyes to the reality of not living in a perfect world. What you suggest doing doesn't work out here in the real world. You really don't understand much about anything.3

BTW, did you ever thank your employER for giving you a job?

[Proven]

Originally Posted by ITSTOCK

You quite obviously have no clue of how a business works. In a time of recession, or just an economic downturn, it's not smart for any business to assume that profits will stay well above margin. That means it's not smart to pay employee's increased wages over what their field commands. What happens when times get tough and there is little or no cash reserve to pay those bloated salaries? How much crying are you going to do when there are massive layoffs, instead of the cash reserves to maintain employment within a given company?

Your exaggerating my "fair salaries" into bloated salaries to make your point valid. When times are bad (like i mentioned) its fair to lower salaries. Its not fair to always keep lower salaries "just in case" especially when the owner is banking from it. I understand having reserves for salaries, r&d, and expansion. I never said that money should be pulled to raise employee salaries. You just assumed I did

How much crying are the employees going to do when they find out that their already overinflated salary is going to be cut down to a more reasonable level? What happens when you have 1 million people applying for the same job with that increased salary, but are willing to do it for the market price? What happens when the share holders start bitching about profit being down because the $40,000/year salaried employee's are getting $90,000/year? What happens when a company has a lower profit margin and can no longer expand because it's got a bunch of overpaid employees? What happens when no more research can be done because there is little left in the budget, and the company goes belly up 10 years down the road because they didn't spend money on R&D???

Proven, it's also quite obvious that you live in your own little fantasy world.
I suggest you open your eyes to the reality of not living in a perfect world. What you suggest doing doesn't work out here in the real world. You really don't understand much about anything.3

BTW, did you ever thank your employER for giving you a job?

Yes, I did thank them for giving me a job, then thanked them when I got to keep it during lay off's. I actually told you this.

What it boils down to for me is if business is good and all other logistics are in order salaries for employEE's should be raised. The employER shouldn't be the only one reaping the benefits considering without his employEE's things wouldn't of gotten so far (Team effort, pretty much what every business preaches).

[ITSTOCK]

Originally Posted by Proven

Yes, I did thank them for giving me a job, then thanked them when I got to keep it during lay off's. I actually told you this.

What it boils down to for me is if business is good and all other logistics are in order salaries for employEE's should be raised. The employER shouldn't be the only one reaping the benefits considering without his employEE's things wouldn't of gotten so far (Team effort, pretty much what every business preaches).

It sounds like it all boils down to you having sour grapes over not being paid enough or getting a raise (hell, how long have you been with your current employer anyway), errr, not being paid fairly. I suggest you join a union, as after all, that is why they were implemented. Just don't look at the auto unions to see what happens when employees keep getting paid more than they are worth, because you might open your eyes up to reality.

Do you honestly believe that people who work for evil corporations and normal companies alike don't often get annual salary raises, bonuses, and other added benefits (such as accumulation of vacation days)??? I'm not saying everyone does, but it's shocking that you think that is against the norm. It's actually quite normal for all of that to happen with employEE's.

You are all over the map on this one. What the hell is a fair salary? I thought that was the going wage for an employee, between what an employer offers, and and employee accepts as pay. That is the fair that happens out in the real world. Not only that, but as stated, raises are often given for not only inflation, but for performance and time in. The large majority are often great benefits as well. When companies do good, they often give bonuses. They also keep the employee, employed.

Why is that not fair in your eyes??? Or is it, but you just don't want to agree in those exact words because MSNBC taught you that the employer is evil?

[poolmike]

Originally Posted by ITSTOCK

It sounds like it all boils down to you having sour grapes over not being paid enough or getting a raise (hell, how long have you been with your current employer anyway), errr, not being paid fairly. I suggest you join a union, as after all, that is why they were implemented. Just don't look at the auto unions to see what happens when employees keep getting paid more than they are worth, because you might open your eyes up to reality.

Do you honestly believe that people who work for evil corporations and normal companies alike don't often get annual salary raises, bonuses, and other added benefits (such as accumulation of vacation days)??? I'm not saying everyone does, but it's shocking that you think that is against the norm. It's actually quite normal for all of that to happen with employEE's.

You are all over the map on this one. What the hell is a fair salary? I thought that was the going wage for an employee, between what an employer offers, and and employee accepts as pay. That is the fair that happens out in the real world. Not only that, but as stated, raises are often given for not only inflation, but for performance and time in. The large majority are often great benefits as well. When companies do good, they often give bonuses. They also keep the employee, employed.

Why is that not fair in your eyes??? Or is it, but you just don't want to agree in those exact words because MSNBC taught you that the employer is evil?

There you go, making all kinds of sense again.


Back to ObamaCare....I had to call someone out on their skewed priorities last week at a car show. This guy driving an old Ford roadster introduced himself, we talked about cars, motorcycles, his annual roadtrips out west on his Harley with his wife, etc. he proceeds to tell me that his construction company is struggling with the economy, and that gov't (local, state, and federal) keeps making new laws and generally stepping in the path of progress and needs to be stopped. Then he proceeds to tell me that health insurance costs are out of control and the government is the only thing big enough regulate it and get insurance companies to lower their premiums, etc. I then pointed out that he was driving a street rod, that is worth at most $40k, and that he probably invested $100k to get it that way. $100k will buy a lot of health insurance....an item that could potentially save your life, not eternally cost you money and possibly your life like a Harley or street rod. Then I asked "So, it's OK for gov't to regulate everything else, but you business?"....then walked away. Liberals are just f'ing stupid.

[Proven]

Originally Posted by poolmike

There you go, making all kinds of sense again.


Back to ObamaCare....I had to call someone out on their skewed priorities last week at a car show. This guy driving an old Ford roadster introduced himself, we talked about cars, motorcycles, his annual roadtrips out west on his Harley with his wife, etc. he proceeds to tell me that his construction company is struggling with the economy, and that gov't (local, state, and federal) keeps making new laws and generally stepping in the path of progress and needs to be stopped. Then he proceeds to tell me that health insurance costs are out of control and the government is the only thing big enough regulate it and get insurance companies to lower their premiums, etc. I then pointed out that he was driving a street rod, that is worth at most $40k, and that he probably invested $100k to get it that way. $100k will buy a lot of health insurance....an item that could potentially save your life, not eternally cost you money and possibly your life like a Harley or street rod. Then I asked "So, it's OK for gov't to regulate everything else, but you business?"....then walked away. Liberals are just f'ing stupid.

You made a good point with that guy!.. If he represented every single liberal for the bill you'd be on to something w/ saying they're stupid. If that guy wants coverage he could simply cut back on his toy spending! Understood! Now think about the guy who makes 30k a year, has no toys, a wife, and a kid and can't afford coverage because pricing is out of control. That's who this bill is for.

Health Insurance use to be affordable, what happen? Greed, and abuse.. This bill is built to put that to an end.. It's not perfect and can easily be read wrong but absolutely no one else was doing anything to fix the system.

Insurance Companies had plenty of time to fix themselves.. Now all's there doing is looking for more way to increase cost and find loop holes in the bill.

[Proven]

Originally Posted by ITSTOCK

It sounds like it all boils down to you having sour grapes over not being paid enough or getting a raise (hell, how long have you been with your current employer anyway), errr, not being paid fairly. I suggest you join a union, as after all, that is why they were implemented. Just don't look at the auto unions to see what happens when employees keep getting paid more than they are worth, because you might open your eyes up to reality.

Do you honestly believe that people who work for evil corporations and normal companies alike don't often get annual salary raises, bonuses, and other added benefits (such as accumulation of vacation days)??? I'm not saying everyone does, but it's shocking that you think that is against the norm. It's actually quite normal for all of that to happen with employEE's.

You are all over the map on this one. What the hell is a fair salary? I thought that was the going wage for an employee, between what an employer offers, and and employee accepts as pay. That is the fair that happens out in the real world. Not only that, but as stated, raises are often given for not only inflation, but for performance and time in. The large majority are often great benefits as well. When companies do good, they often give bonuses. They also keep the employee, employed.

Why is that not fair in your eyes??? Or is it, but you just don't want to agree in those exact words because MSNBC taught you that the employer is evil?

Fair enough, I definitely have sour grapes from my experience with my previous employer. I'll save the sob story, but in the end I still feel employee's should be paid what the position's worth to the company as far as productivity rather then by how much the owner can save/ put in his own wallet (wallet, as profit for them self NOT r&d, or expansion funds, etc.). It's not right for any employer to be rolling in it while his employee's (foundation of the company) struggle.

Also, I don't watch MSNBC. Maybe I should start though

Stop watching FOX?

[ITSTOCK]

Originally Posted by Proven

Health Insurance use to be affordable, what happen? Greed, and abuse.. This bill is built to put that to an end.. It's not perfect and can easily be read wrong but absolutely no one else was doing anything to fix the system.

I have full medical and dental insurance through Aetna (I'm self employed, I have decided to supply myself with coverage) that is cheaper than my auto insurance. I use my health insurance often (way more often than my auto insurance), and it has saved me tens of thousands of dollars. It has literally saved limbs, and found health problems that quite possibly could have led to death later down the road. It has also made my quality of living much higher when I became sick, as immediate treatment was available that made me better. I find it hard to believe that one could willfully carry auto insurance, yet cry about health insurance. It's downright frightening and shows the priorities that many Americans have.

Where is the crying about auto insurance? The government should step in and "fix" that too! I DEMAND RESULTS!

The bill has not put greed and abuse to an end. It places greed on the politicians who stand to make millions through their backdoor deals, stocks, and private positions. It places abuse in the hands of the self righteous, self entitled, ignorant, and once again greedy lowly citizens of the US that have so rampantly fulfilled their roles through entitlement programs such as welfare. It places greed and abuse back in to private companies who can and will milk the government for all it's worth through the previous mentioned citizens who will either blatantly or unknowingly put an even greater strain on the system. It places greed and abuse in to criminal organizations who will undoubtedly steal millions of dollars from the government through streamlined fraud.

Guess where that leaves you? Still screwed with horrible coverage.

As I have stated over and over again, you live in a fantasy world. There were a million other "fixes" that could have been done that would fix the majority of problems. No more denying customers with preexisting conditions. Loosen up state controlled competition boundaries. Continue and broaden existing government health programs (yes, there are plenty ALREADY) to the poor, underpaid, and unemployed. Allow and fund more private/free health clinics with a closer eye on fraud. Keep the existing legislation where nobody can be denied emergency assistance.

[ITSTOCK]

Originally Posted by Proven

Fair enough, I definitely have sour grapes from my experience with my previous employer. I'll save the sob story, but in the end I still feel employee's should be paid what the position's worth to the company as far as productivity rather then by how much the owner can save/ put in his own wallet (wallet, as profit for them self NOT r&d, or expansion funds, etc.). It's not right for any employer to be rolling in it while his employee's (foundation of the company) struggle.

After reading your posts over the past couple of years, you have been interested in no less than 3 COMPLETELY different careers. You were also unemployed for a long time if I recall correctly. You are also rather young (as in my age). What position could you possibly have held that made you feel so worthy and irreplaceable?

[delphinE30]

im not even gunna read the opinions. im just living the dream for now cuz my future is not looking so good. tryin to buy up some guns and ammo now and throw my cash some where safe (not a bank) and just roll on. free health care is not so free.

[fatfitman]

Originally Posted by delphinE30

free health care is not so free.

Well put.

[poolmike]

Originally Posted by Proven

You made a good point with that guy!.. If he represented every single liberal for the bill you'd be on to something w/ saying they're stupid. If that guy wants coverage he could simply cut back on his toy spending! Understood! Now think about the guy who makes 30k a year, has no toys, a wife, and a kid and can't afford coverage because pricing is out of control. That's who this bill is for.

Health Insurance use to be affordable, what happen? Greed, and abuse.. This bill is built to put that to an end.. It's not perfect and can easily be read wrong but absolutely no one else was doing anything to fix the system.

Insurance Companies had plenty of time to fix themselves.. Now all's there doing is looking for more way to increase cost and find loop holes in the bill.

What is the monthly premium for people making little or no money?? What has changed for these people?

[poolmike]

Originally Posted by Proven

Fair enough, I definitely have sour grapes from my experience with my previous employer. I'll save the sob story, but in the end I still feel employee's should be paid what the position's worth to the company as far as productivity rather then by how much the owner can save/ put in his own wallet (wallet, as profit for them self NOT r&d, or expansion funds, etc.). It's not right for any employer to be rolling in it while his employee's (foundation of the company) struggle.

Also, I don't watch MSNBC. Maybe I should start though

Stop watching FOX?

Once again, why not put yourself in the employer's shoes. The employer carries all of the risk. You carry none. At the end of the work day, you go home, your employer goes home, hoping that you and the rest of your coworkers didn't screw up and cost him/her that home.

[bastid]

Originally Posted by Proven

Health Insurance use to be affordable, what happen?

Development of new medical technologies that have to be paid for. Follow me for a minute. Let's say the current standard for a CAT Scan machine gives you 64 slices (images). Suppose a company spends $500M to develop a 128-slice machine that can more accurately and quickly diagnose cancer. It also costs them $100,000 per unit to build compared to the 64-slice that cost them $50,000 to build.

Guess what... The cost of improved technology costs more money. Do you complain when a new model year of a car comes out? "Ohh, the new navigation is so much better but we should all get it at the same price as we did in 1991 when it didn't even exist."

Originally Posted by Proven

Greed, and abuse..

For the most part this is utter crap. Insurance companies on average make 1.4% Net Profit. If you stripped all profit away from all insurance companies nationwide, it would pay for healthcare for 2 days in America.

Originally Posted by Proven

This bill is built to put that to an end..

No, it's not. There is nothing in the bill that controls costs. Absolutely nothing. There IS a tax on medical device makers... That will ADD to the cost of healthcare given the example above.

Originally Posted by Proven

Insurance Companies had plenty of time to fix themselves.. Now all's there doing is looking for more way to increase cost and find loop holes in the bill.

Looking for more ways to increase costs? Please point me to factual evidence like you did the last time I aske.... oh yeah, nevermind.