***TST's Official "Boring" Thread, Part Deux***

[DownforceTom]

Jim, Reese, Keith & Susie.

You all have ways of contacting me. Last night I was near death, so I'll excuse you all. Next time there is a midweek get together, I better be invited. That is all.

<3 tom

[Big_Jim]

last night def just started out as "hey lets get nachos"

[DownforceTom]

Originally Posted by Big_Jim

last night def just started out as "hey lets get nachos"

Hey Tom, let's get nachos. See that wasn't so hard.

[piku]

420 I feel the same way as you do about the plumber, electrician, etc which is why I will generally try to take on anything myself. My jew friend called me the "honorary jewiest non-jew in all of jewdom". I look at frugality as being a virtue so I took it as a compliment.

Originally Posted by jpalamar

Tell that to the majority of homeowners that are upside down on their loans...

It depends on how you look at it. Yes, you are upside down on your loan and while you are upside down on it you can't escape. But if your house simply lost value and your equity is enough to cover the upside-downness, then it's a wash because whatever money you lost on your current home you will get back when you buy another home. Market fluctuations are irrelevant while you're a homeowner. The only thing that's relevant is when you enter the market and when you exit. So people first buying a home now should be happy because prices came down a bit. People exiting the market (old people) should be miserable (and they are). But for the most part they can quit their bitching because the market just reset back to what it SHOULD be so they still made a bunch of money from their equity.

Originally Posted by crazyduckme

I honestly can't wait to own a home. It's yours. You can do whatever you want to it... add on, gardens, yardwork... I love all that stuff. I love love love interior design, so when I get a house I'm gonna flip out at all the stuff I can do! hahaha.

I felt this way too. Now that I own a home I've come to realize that I'm pretty lazy. I fixate on certain ideas (cutting down, splitting and chipping a fallen tree) that usually don't align with what Marina would like to me to do (like finish replacing the shower). The sad thing about the tree is that the tree place only wanted $500 and by my math that would have been well worth it since I'm blowing 4 afternoons total on the work.

Originally Posted by angdefeo

it makes financial sense if you buy a house that will slowly appreciate overtime.

the other thing that needs to be calcualted into the home owning argument is that you need to live someowhere, whether it be an apartment, house ... whatever. there is a monthly cost associated with it. so the money that you put out builds for you in an asset that you can eventually sell. then there is the tax benefit of owning a home. you can write of the mortgage interst, the property taxes etc...

if you only plan on living in an area 5-10 years, renting will win out over owning. but if you plan on it being for longer than 10 years, then buying and owning the house make better financial sense.

Exactly. In the beginning almost all you pay in your mortgage goes to interest but SOME of that goes to principal and that's not money going into your equity if you were renting. Home ownership *seems* more expensive but really you get it all back and then some later on. People here have nothing to bitch about. Here a $350K house might be worth $320K now. In florida a $650K house is now a $150K short sale. Those poor people are ****ed. Those houses will never appreciate back to that value in their lifetime... but those people were pretty stupid to pay those prices to begin with. I felt a little nuts paying what I paid for my house but I can basically see the value due to the house, land size and area. Bucks/montco is flush with jobs and doesn't have a lot of space left.

Originally Posted by jpalamar

I dunno man. Between the purchase price, closing costs, interest, insurance, taxes, higher living expenses IE electric, water, trash, and maintance I don't see it has an investment. I see it as something you want and there is nothing wrong with that. The house would have to appreciate a **** ton to overcome the costs of ownership VS what it would cost to just rent an apartment.

With the housing market crash so many things have changed that I doubt houses will appreciate like they used to... especially with the economy being as bad as it is and likely will be for many years to come. Not to mention stricter credit limites your potential buyers as well.

These are just my thoughts... aside from costs, there are alot of very attractive reasons to buying though. Not saying it is a bad thing, but I just don't believe buying a house for financial reasons is a great decision because when I do the math in my heads an apartment just seems cheaper.

Your house doesn't have to appreciate a dime - you still end up on top over renting. Some landlords are happy to rent places without even completely covering the base mortgage payment (i.e. they have to pay for someone else to live in their property). Why? Because in 15-30 years it's a hundreds of thousands of dollar asset. If you look at raw percentages, the landlord invests say $30K total (not talking down payment cause you get that back) on a $150K townhouse or condo over a 20 year mortgage. That computes to 20% per year... better than any market investment. The reality is you have to factor taxes and other bull**** in which will pull the percentage down, but the reality is also that over 20 years that property will appreciate on top of the equity gained from the tenant. Landlords are generally wealthy people.

Homeownership makes a LOT of sense but it's a pita and I think that a lot of people make a lot of bad decisions based on being tied to an area and a job. I think the world would be a happier place if we all had a little more freedom, time off, and ability to get up and go. It's also not fair to compare costs to own a house with some land or high square footage with an apartment. Yes the apartment will be cheaper but it's a tiny apartment. Comparing townhouses is a lot more fair. A house like this http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/11...10032435_zpid/ you can score for maybe $240K.. Maybe less if they are desperate. If you actually financed 100% that loan would cost you $350,000 (interest and principal) total for 20 year mortgage. You can rent a very similar townhouse for around $1300-$1500 per month. Lets use $1400 as the example. Over 20 years this is $336,000. At the end of the 20 years the homeowner has an asset worth in NORMAL growth at LEAST $300,000 as a most pessimistic estimate. Your mortgage payment is also static whereas rent is guaranteed to increase at the wrong time.

The BIGGEST problem with homeownership is that most people buy more than they can really afford. That's how we got where we're at. The banks told people they could afford a mortgage and they stupidly believed them without doing some pretty basic math. I think a lot of people rationalize that they can deal with a ****ty apartment because it's not theirs. But when you buy a house you envision yourself as being stuck with it because it's your property, not an asset you can buy and sell like a lawn mower, so the tendency is to stretch a little bit too far.

I gotta stop this. I keep forgetting that a few people in this thread don't want help or advice and they really hate when their fairy tale fantasy is broken down (not you palamar, others)

[piku]

Originally Posted by J.Ralli

My mother wanted to call the cops because there was a bomb shaped object in my garage.... Now she knows what a keg is.... Good Morning to me

She must not know very much about explosives because a keg looks nothing like a bomb ;) I'd be a lot more scared of a pile of cardboard boxes.

[Snoozie]

hahaha

[piku]

Also things make a lot of sense because the interest rates are so low right now. Even at 4% on a 20 year (not 30 year) loan on a modest property you pay over $100,000 in interest. Extra payments can shave off many 10's of thousands over the life of the loan. $30,000 plus or minus in the value of the property is damn near irrelevant compared to stuff like that. If people realized what they paid on their car and home loans to the damn bank they might think twice about buying new cars and ****.

[jpalamar]

You can't call anything profit until the house is paid off and you have recovered all moneys put into it IE down payment/closing costs, taxes, insurance, repairs/tools/lawnmower/ect, interest, higher electric bill/water/sewer. Thats takes a long ass time. Think of how much money you would actualy have if you got an apartment, and put the difference between home ownership and renting into even a low interest CD or bonds... in 15-30 years you think you would have more equety in your house then money in the bank that is invested? You think at the end of the day you would have more money because you have a house and other person has alot of investments that he can change from CDs/bonds to higher interest IRAs, stocks, ect.

How is rent going up any different from taxes going up during home ownership?

I agree that too many people get more then they can afford. That was the biggest problem with banks in the past. My bank would give me any amount of money I would ask for, no questions asked... now they look at my income and say f' that. It is a good thing to a point, but I actually think they are playing it a little on the too safe side. Once the banks settle and refine their formulas for risk/profit I think it will be a great thing.

[angdefeo]

Originally Posted by jpalamar

You can't call anything profit until the house is paid off and you have recovered all moneys put into it IE down payment/closing costs, taxes, insurance, repairs/tools/lawnmower/ect, interest, higher electric bill/water/sewer. Thats takes a long ass time. Think of how much money you would actualy have if you got an apartment, and put the difference between home ownership and renting into even a low interest CD or bonds... in 15-30 years you think you would have more equety in your house then money in the bank that is invested? You think at the end of the day you would have more money because you have a house and other person has alot of investments that he can change from CDs/bonds to higher interest IRAs, stocks, ect.

How is rent going up any different from taxes going up during home ownership?

I agree that too many people get more then they can afford. That was the biggest problem with banks in the past. My bank would give me any amount of money I would ask for, no questions asked... now they look at my income and say f' that. It is a good thing to a point, but I actually think they are playing it a little on the too safe side. Once the banks settle and refine their formulas for risk/profit I think it will be a great thing.

The one thing you didn't factor in is that in the end of 30 years....you can sell the house and recoupe some of the money that you have paid out over the years.

[OMGz Turbo]

Hey you guys can invite me out once and a while...i dont bite...

[crazyduckme]

Originally Posted by DownforceTom

Jim, Reese, Keith & Susie.

You all have ways of contacting me. Last night I was near death, so I'll excuse you all. Next time there is a midweek get together, I better be invited. That is all.

<3 tom

I feel like the delco kids are always left out. we're far from everyone hahaha.

[angdefeo]

Originally Posted by crazyduckme

I feel like the delco kids are always left out. we're far from everyone hahaha.

i feel like the kid in the city....is left out of delco, bucks and montgomery county fun.

[J.Ralli]

Originally Posted by crazyduckme

I feel like the delco kids are always left out. we're far from everyone hahaha.

Delco peeps are always left out!

[crazyduckme]

Originally Posted by J.Ralli

Delco peeps are always left out!

ITS NOT FAIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. lol

[jpalamar]

Originally Posted by angdefeo

The one thing you didn't factor in is that in the end of 30 years....you can sell the house and recoupe some of the money that you have paid out over the years.

If you can only recoupe some of the money then you didn't invest, you lost money right? I personally think its worth it to own a home because of the feeling of being perminent and doing what you want to it when you want.

The renter has full access to his money at all times and can invest how they see fit. If one market drops you move to a better one. I am willing to bet house appreciation is much lower the investment %. At the end of the 30 renters, they don't have to rely on a good sellers market or waiting sometimes a long time to sell. Not to mention if the homeowner needs money in a bind they refi the house or take a loan out against the house, paying interest to spend their own money while the renter has a nice savings account accompanied by a nice investment portfolio and uses their own money penality free.

[piku]

but you're always invited so I don't know why you'd feel left out.

[crazyduckme]

Originally Posted by piku

but you're always invited so I don't know why you'd feel left out.

Who? Me?

[angdefeo]

Originally Posted by jpalamar

If you can only recoupe some of the money then you didn't invest, you lost money right? I personally think its worth it to own a home because of the feeling of being perminent and doing what you want to it when you want.

The renter has full access to his money at all times and can invest how they see fit. If one market drops you move to a better one. I am willing to bet house appreciation is much lower the investment %. At the end of the 30 renters, they don't have to rely on a good sellers market or waiting sometimes a long time to sell. Not to mention if the homeowner needs money in a bind they refi the house or take a loan out against the house, paying interest to spend their own money while the renter has a nice savings account accompanied by a nice investment portfolio and uses their own money penality free.

i think the part of the equation that you are leaving out is.....on a mothly basis, rent or mortgage.....is an out of pocket expense. in the case of the mortgage, you are getting part of it back when you sell. in the case of renting, its a complete expense.

[420sx]

Originally Posted by piku

I gotta stop this. I keep forgetting that a few people in this thread don't want help or advice and they really hate when their fairy tale fantasy is broken down (not you palamar, others)

Im nowhere near ready to buy a house of my own, but I appreciated the post.

[piku]

Originally Posted by crazyduckme

Who? Me?

And angelo.. and everyone else. people act like if they aren't singled out they aren't invited but imho if you discuss it in the whatever thread, it's open. I'll show up and ruin all y'all's days ;)