Sonic OC friendly?

[angdefeo]

Originally Posted by max2k1

My friend who is a Staff SGT in the USAF is constantly OC'ing without any problems. Only time he ever had a problem was a couple of years ago the cops stopped him and took his gun because they didn't know the law about OC'ing. So after bothering the state troopers to find out the law, they gave him his gun back with a formal written apology

Which state?

[ASIAN JUL]

It has been established in court cases that the police can not stop and frisk you based simply on an anonymous call. This doesn't really apply to the open carriers who are not licensed, but rather for those who can freely switch between OC and CC.

But in PA, outside of Philadelphia, at least, no license is required to open carry, therefore unless the cops have enough reasonable suspicion or probable cause to arrest you in regards to a crime you committed or are going to, they can do nothing at all, even if you are open carrying. As far as I understand it, mere presence of a gun does not warrant a Terry Stop.

As far as I can tell, there is not much a cop can legally do to you, even if someone does call and say you are in possession of a gun. But I am not a lawyer.

[max2k1]

Originally Posted by ScubaSteve

I lived in Shillington and it's a really nice area. It's not like downtown Reading is radioactive, you can safely live a few miles away.


Without trying to get too involved in this treadmill debate, what I don't understand is how some people feel that they can't be safe anywhere if they don't have a gun with them. I can understand why it makes someone feel better and there is no doubt that it could be really useful one day but I refuse to live my life afraid of every step I take. I don't carry a gun with me for the same reason that I don't wear a helmet when I walk down the street, it could save my life one day but instead of being afraid of everything that could happen to me I'd rather take life as it comes.

I want to make it clear that I have no issues with guns, I am a gun owner, and it doesn't bother me if someone wants to CC or OC, I just simply don't feel the need to. My big issue with the whole situation is that guns do make a lot of people uncomfortable and while there are plenty of valid reasons for someone wanting to carry I think that a responsible gun owner should always consider the impact that their weapon could have on another person (to an extent). Comments about wanting to OC just because it upsets people tell me that the person is not a responsible gun owner.

Its not about being afraid. It's about being prepared. My friend and I were both saved by our guns when a large group of drunks tried to jump us in a Burger King parking lot while we were talking. As soon we made it clear that we were both carrying guns, the group turned and took off. You never know what will happen out there

[ASIAN JUL]

Oh and at least for this Sonic, being as it's really close to a range, it's not hard to say you're going to or coming from a range.. which loopholes the carrying in a vehicle issue.

[rodder]

holy ****ing ****... the level of stupidity in this thread has reached a new high (or low). Why do people with obviously zero knowledge on the topic of open carry (and probably have never even fired a gun for that matter) absolutely insist you know how the police/public will react and all the terrible things that will happen if you OC. For crying out loud at least do a teensy bit of research before spouting off your bull**** and you'd quickly realize how incorrect and misguided your ASSumptions are. You guys posting this crap are as bad as the n00bs that come on here and tell everyone to put a BOV and a CAI on their wrx because it makes you teh fast4r.

First of all, to the guy posting about Meleanie Hain and calling his LTCF a CWP - the woman had her permit reinstated because a district judge agreed that she had done nothing wrong and had broken no laws. The cops BROKE THE LAW by arresting her and the SHERIFF ALSO BROKE THE LAW by revoking her permit (which had the hilarious side effect of FORCING her to OC if she wanted to continue to carry - which she did). That much was all settled in court last year and there is actually still a pending civil suit against both the PD and the Sheriff's dept. In other words, if the cops hassle anyone for OCing at Sonic, the lucky OCer will have won what OC advocates refer to as the "OC lottery". **** it pisses me off when people insist they're right while having absolutely no clue wtf they're talking about.

For the people I'm talking to (you know who you are) please read the following article. (unless of course you want to continue in your ignorance).

http://www.examiner.com/x-2782-DC-Gu...-carrying-guns

Federal judge rules police cannot detain people for openly carrying guns

On September 8, 2009, United States District Judge Bruce D. Black of the United States District Court for New Mexico entered summary judgment in a civil case for damages against Alamogordo, NM police officers. The Judge's straight shootin' message to police: Leave open carriers alone unless you have "reason to believe that a crime [is] afoot."

-------

On these facts, Judge Black concluded as a matter of law that the police violated Matthew St. John's constitutional rights under the Fourth Amendment because they seized and disarmed him even though there was not "any reason to believe that a crime was afoot." Judge Black's opinion is consistent with numerous high state and federal appellate courts, e.g., the United States Supreme Court in Florida v. J.L. (2000) (detaining man on mere report that he has a gun violates the Fourth Amendment) and the Washington Appeals Court in State v. Casad (2004) (detaining man observed by police as openly carrying rifles on a public street violates the Fourth Amendment).

--------

Though police harassment of open carriers is rare, it's not yet as rare as it should be - over the last several years open carriers detained without cause by police have sued and obtained cash settlements in Pennsylvania, Louisiana, Virginia (see additional settlement here), and Georgia. More cases are still pending in Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania.

[max2k1]

Originally Posted by angdefeo

Which state?

PA... Because of a bad motorcycle accident he hadand him signing up for another 6 years, the Air Force gave him his base of preference so that he was able to be closer to his family. So he chose McGuire which is only 35min drive from the Levittown area where we grew up

[ScubaSteve]

Originally Posted by ASIAN JUL

It has been established in court cases that the police can not stop and frisk you based simply on an anonymous call. This doesn't really apply to the open carriers who are not licensed, but rather for those who can freely switch between OC and CC.

But in PA, outside of Philadelphia, at least, no license is required to open carry, therefore unless the cops have enough reasonable suspicion or probable cause to arrest you in regards to a crime you committed or are going to, they can do nothing at all, even if you are open carrying. As far as I understand it, mere presence of a gun does not warrant a Terry Stop.

As far as I can tell, there is not much a cop can legally do to you, even if someone does call and say you are in possession of a gun. But I am not a lawyer.

IIRC a Terry Stop pertains specifically to a limited search for weapons so with the gun already in plain sight there's not much left to search for lol. I agree with you though, I don't believe there is any legitimate legal action that a cop could take in that situation but they could sure as hell harass you about it.

[rodder]

Originally Posted by Scapegoat

as far as i know, in order to transport a weapon and ammo, both need to be separated and in different parts of the vehicle. so, gun in the trunk, ammo in the glove box. completely impossible to load the weapon quickly

what you've posted is covered by federal law, which allows persons to transport firearms between states provided they are unloaded and unaccessible from the passenger compartment and in both the state they are leaving and the state they are traveling to te firearm is legal.

In PA, the ONLY way to legally transport a firearm WITHOUT a LTCF is either OC on foot, or if you are driving to one of the exempted locations (includes gun shops, shows and ranges). If you DO NOT have a LTCF you can NOT unload the weapon and put it in the trunk, then take it out at Sonic and OC it.

Hope that clears things up.

[ASIAN JUL]

Originally Posted by ScubaSteve

IIRC a Terry Stop pertains specifically to a limited search for weapons so with the gun already in plain sight there's not much left to search for lol. I agree with you though, I don't believe there is any legitimate legal action that a cop could take in that situation but they could sure as hell harass you about it.

Hence why I acknowledged that was more towards those who can carry concealed and open carry because if someone were to open carry then conceal when an officer arrived, they're allowed to do so.

Cops can't even detain you or stop you without violating your fourth amendment. So yeah, they can harass you but not legally.

[angdefeo]

Originally Posted by rodder

First of all, to the guy posting about Meleanie Hain and calling his LTCF a CWP - the woman had her permit reinstated because a district judge agreed that she had done nothing wrong and had broken no laws. The cops BROKE THE LAW by arresting her and the SHERIFF ALSO BROKE THE LAW by revoking her permit (which had the hilarious side effect of FORCING her to OC if she wanted to continue to carry - which she did). That much was all settled in court last year and there is actually still a pending civil suit against both the PD and the Sheriff's dept. In other words, if the cops hassle anyone for OCing at Sonic, the lucky OCer will have won what OC advocates refer to as the "OC lottery". **** it pisses me off when people insist they're right while having absolutely no clue wtf they're talking about.

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Raises hand......i called it a CWP. Sorry.....my brain is full of acronymns. I cant keep them all straight at times.

So is sunday's sonic meet a good time to express your your court supported right to openly carry?

[PAFirefighter11]

Originally Posted by angdefeo

So is sunday's sonic meet a good time to express your your court supported right to openly carry?

Sunday: Rain likely in the morning...then showers likely in the afternoon. Highs around 60. East winds 5 to 10 mph...becoming north in the afternoon. Chance of rain 70 percent.

Sounds like a good day to CC personally LOL... but I don't OC usually anyway unless it's on the bike as stated.

[angdefeo]

Originally Posted by rodder

In PA, the ONLY way to legally transport a firearm WITHOUT a LTCF is either OC on foot, or if you are driving to one of the exempted locations (includes gun shops, shows and ranges). If you DO NOT have a LTCF you can NOT unload the weapon and put it in the trunk, then take it out at Sonic and OC it.

Hope that clears things up.

Yes, that did. Thank you. I got my LTCF just in case i took a detour on the way from range.

[rodder]

Originally Posted by ASIAN JUL

Oh and at least for this Sonic, being as it's really close to a range, it's not hard to say you're going to or coming from a range.. which loopholes the carrying in a vehicle issue.

the law doesn't allow for ANY "unnecessary deviations". It wouldn't be very hard to prove in court that a stop at sonic was unnecessary.

If you don't have a LTCF and do not live within walking distance of sonic imo it would not be wise to OC there.

[ScubaSteve]

Originally Posted by max2k1

Its not about being afraid. It's about being prepared. My friend and I were both saved by our guns when a large group of drunks tried to jump us in a Burger King parking lot while we were talking. As soon we made it clear that we were both carrying guns, the group turned and took off. You never know what will happen out there

I just see it as a balance of how likely something is to happen compared to what it takes for me to be prepared for whatever might happen. It's not that I think I'll never find myself in a bad situation, in fact I've been in bad situations before, but I think that if I'm going to prepare myself for potentially life threating situations I'd start with other precautions before carrying a firearm.

I understand that it's about taking a risk but it's a risk that I feel is justified to take. It's true that you never know what's going to happen which leaves you with the option to prepare for whatever could happen or accept that you're leaving yourself vulnerable to a possibly bad situation, we're just on two different sides of the choice.

Hence why I acknowledged that was more towards those who can carry concealed and open carry because if someone were to open carry then conceal when an officer arrived, they're allowed to do so.

Cops can't even detain you or stop you without violating your fourth amendment. So yeah, they can harass you but not legally.

Sorry, it was difficult to tell that you were talking about that type of situation. The Fourth Amendment is not going to do you much good if a cop decides to stop and harass you about something (within reason). It may not be right but there's not much you can do about it.

[ASIAN JUL]

Originally Posted by rodder

the law doesn't allow for ANY "unnecessary deviations". It wouldn't be very hard to prove in court that a stop at sonic was unnecessary.

If you don't have a LTCF and do not live within walking distance of sonic imo it would not be wise to OC there.

True that, I don't advise anyone to break the law, especially knowing some people will call the cops on you for open carrying. However, like I said, if you're in possession in a LTCF, nothing wrong with open carrying and cops really can't do much.

[ASIAN JUL]

Originally Posted by ScubaSteve

I just see it as a balance of how likely something is to happen compared to what it takes for me to be prepared for whatever might happen. It's not that I think I'll never find myself in a bad situation, in fact I've been in bad situations before, but I think that if I'm going to prepare myself for potentially life threating situations I'd start with other precautions before carrying a firearm.

I understand that it's about taking a risk but it's a risk that I feel is justified to take. It's true that you never know what's going to happen which leaves you with the option to prepare for whatever could happen or accept that you're leaving yourself vulnerable to a possibly bad situation, we're just on two different sides of the choice.

Just to be clear, you are talking about it being unnecessary to open carry, not carry in general? Or are you talking about both?

[PAFirefighter11]

Originally Posted by ASIAN JUL

True that, I don't advise anyone to break the law, especially knowing some people will call the cops on you for open carrying. However, like I said, if you're in possession in a LTCF, nothing wrong with open carrying and cops really can't do much.

Ah, you know the difference between advise and advice. WOW! *props*

[rodder]

Originally Posted by angdefeo

Raises hand......i called it a CWP. Sorry.....my brain is full of acronymns. I cant keep them all straight at times.

So is sunday's sonic meet a good time to express your your court supported right to openly carry?

I won't be OCing myself. I don't like the extra attention that comes along with it. However, when do you feel IS a good time to exercise one's rights? When no one else might be offended? What is the purpose of preserving rights if you can only exercise them around like-minded people? The 1st amendment doesn't protect only non-offensive speech, or offensive speech only used in certain circumstances when the potential to offend is minimized. Would you even dare suggest to an openly gay friend of yours that he might want to tone down the flamboyance at the sonic meet so he doesn't offend anyone? Maybe a friend who enjoys punk music and has a green mohawk should dye his hair a normal color and keep the leather and studs to a minimum because there might be little kids and their mommies there. Sound OK to you?

My point is, ANY WHERE and ANY TIME is a good time to express your rights.

"A right not exercised is a right lost."

[angdefeo]

Originally Posted by rodder

I won't be OCing myself. I don't like the extra attention that comes along with it. However, when do you feel IS a good time to exercise one's rights?
My point is, ANY WHERE and ANY TIME is a good time to express your rights.

"A right not exercised is a right lost."

I agree with you. I was limiting my argument to openly carrying a pistol at the Sonic Meet.

[ASIAN JUL]

Where do you think it is appropriate to open carry, then?