Degreeing aftermarket cams... whats it all about?

[TROLL]

I've read a little about it, with mixed internet opinions on the subject of course.
Some say its not necessary and is wasted effort, some say its necessary to get the most out of your cams.
The cams come with a 'cam card' to set them up, and some people use it and some people toss it. Anyone have experience or knowledge with this?

[OMGz Turbo]

Bryan i have honestly thought it was necessary if they were aftermarket, and im sure it would make a nice difference if there is plenty of work supporting them. So i know my dad did his and mine, ill find out what its about from him

[TROLL]

Yeah some guys say they spend a good hour on the dyno getting them degree'd properly only to realize they're basically zeroed out.
The way I understand it, most engines dont really require it, but some do because of tolerances in the motor assembly being off slightly which can add up and make the lift on the valves off by a bit.
I'm not talking about advancing or retarding the cams with cam gears like 1, 2, 3 degrees, but rather degreeing them so they're aligned as designed from the manufacturer.

[Nors]

I never heard of it being done on any import motors. Just american engines like 350s. But I am pretty curious now, hopefully someone comes out of the woodwork that has done it to import engines.

Edit: I'd like to add, when I saw it being done, a bushing was used to degree the cam, and all the engines I saw were Cam in block/pushrod style.

[Red3KGT]

Originally Posted by Nors

I never heard of it being done on any import motors. Just american engines like 350s. But I am pretty curious now, hopefully someone comes out of the woodwork that has done it to import engines.

Edit: I'd like to add, when I saw it being done, a bushing was used to degree the cam, and all the engines I saw were Cam in block/pushrod style.

I actually just recently degreed my cams to hks's specs. On the 3sgtes when you install aftermarket cams "straight up" they usually will not make as much power as properly degreed cams. So I put em in, found true top dead center, found where the cams lope center or peak lift was, and then adjusted my cam gears until peak lift was at hks's specificed degree which iirc was about 116 degrees on the intake and a little less on the exhaust.

To do it I just used a degree wheel, dial caliper (I think thats what its called) and a piston stop. It was all done outside of the car so it wasnt too bad

Although I have seen people skip degreeing them the way I did and just get them degreed on the dyno

[Got Insulin?]

I know with DSMs, especially once you get into bigger cam profiles, like, say 280+ or the FP3s, degreeing is almost absolutely necessary to get the most out of the cams. I don't know how relevent it is to other cars, but alot of the big DSM shops use solid lifters when degree'ing cams, when not on the dyno.

[TROLL]

This whole cam thing is new to me... I've got a set of HKS 264s on the way and although not necessary I'm going to install springs and retainers with them. They need to be reshimmed, and I'd like to degree them if I can figure out how or get some help with it... but of course then I'll need to get adjustable cam gears as well. Also going to replace my valve stem seals while I'm in there since they have a reputation of going bad as the mileage increases.
I'm also going to get an aftermarket crank damper while I'm working in there, which is $$$. Ugh, so much for my sweet deal on some used cams.

[DPancoast]

On the MR2, the GenII 3SGTE and the Gen III 3SGTEs have different exhaust cam profiles. It is common for the Gen II guys to retard their exhaust cam by 6 degrees to gain a more solid and efficient powerband, but I'm not sure if they have to buy a new cam gear or just use the stock one. I wish I knew more and I'm kinda curious to see where this this thread goes when some experience chimes in.

[TROLL]

Yeah you need cam gears to advance/retard, unless you have some pimp stock ones that are adjustable.
Degreeing is different than advancing/retarding though... degreeing is measuring the motor to set it to the cam manufacturer's preset specs. Advancing/retarding is usually a free form adjustment done on the dyno all in the name of making the most power.

[TurboTagTeam]

You set up a dial indicator to find tru center on the cam..... 0.015 each side from the highest point. Then set it with a Degree wheel to where the manufacterer wants it.

It's a big deal on underhead cam pushrod motors....not so much on overhead cam motors.

[peteyturbo]

ALSO, this should be done after removal of surace material from bloack or head, or when a head gasket that alters the height of the cams from the crank is installed.. Not always needed, but it's never a bad idea to do..

[peteyturbo]

Originally Posted by TROLL

This whole cam thing is new to me... I've got a set of HKS 264s on the way and although not necessary I'm going to install springs and retainers with them. They need to be reshimmed, and I'd like to degree them if I can figure out how or get some help with it... but of course then I'll need to get adjustable cam gears as well. Also going to replace my valve stem seals while I'm in there since they have a reputation of going bad as the mileage increases.
I'm also going to get an aftermarket crank damper while I'm working in there, which is $$$. Ugh, so much for my sweet deal on some used cams.

all this for some hks 264's!! GTFO!! j/k but if you are gonna do the springs and all that you'd be better off installing a bigger cam, keep in mind with the stiffer springs you will have more loss and wear..

[underpressure02]

Here is what I use to do my honda motors.

http://www.xenocron.com/bseries-vtec...kit-p-360.html

[D Money]

Originally Posted by peteyturbo

all this for some hks 264's!! GTFO!! j/k but if you are gonna do the springs and all that you'd be better off installing a bigger cam, keep in mind with the stiffer springs you will have more loss and wear..

Yes! Get HKS 272's or 280's and the purple cam gears!

[TROLL]

On little 67mm turbos making 700 whp or less, 264s kick ass... 272s lose midrange and gain nothing up top. Maybe one day I'll be man enough to get a 72mm+ turbo and run around on race gas all the time with 800whp, then I can man up to the 272s and see some benefits.

Springs and retainers are not required on the 264s but after talking to some other guys I decided its not a bad idea to get the 80k mile old stock stuff replaced since I'm in there anyway. The Crower springs are only slightly stiffer than stock so it shouldn't result in any noticeable increased wear.

I guess the 'cost' on having this ability is the cam gears which I can pick up for about $250, and then the time to actually degree them... not too bad in the grand scheme if it'll be beneficial. Motor is stock and has never been split, AFAIK.

[Got Insulin?]

A big combo in my neck of the woods is the HKS 264/272. Think that might be of any use to you, Bryan? I'm really surprised at your statement, because with the FP Green I'm running (basically a glorified 20G), 272s have made a butt-load of improvement over the 264/264 combo I was running before, so I'd assume that a I6 would have much the same response. Like I said, 264/272 is where it's at, though.

[TROLL]

Interestingly enough the reverse staggered setup was thought to be popular until a shop did some testing on 264/264, 272/264, and 272/272 and found that the reverse staggered setup performed the worst of the bunch. They did say that a normal staggered setup (264/272) wasn't tested at the same time but in other people's experience it showed an expected blend of the larger and smaller setups. (Thread in case anyone's curious: http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...ered+cams+test)

And I guess it all comes down to every motor behaving differently, so it'll respond differently to cams. I'd love to have my car sound like a lopey beast at idle, but there's no way it would benefit my setup. GSC did come out with some cams that seem promising and are a little more aggressive than 264s which, according to their in house testing (of course), outperform the HKS cams... but the HKS are time tested and very well liked, plus they were a really good deal .

Oh, and I just bought some sexy ass Jun cam gears, so "game on" with the degreeing. Jun actually takes stock cam gears and modifies them... not the blingiest out there but regarded as one of the best, and retains the stock teeth so it interfaces as Toyota designed it from the factory.
Still compiling all the parts here to take care of everything I want to, and still have a good bit of homework to do on all of this, but no rush.

[Red3KGT]

Originally Posted by DPancoast

On the MR2, the GenII 3SGTE and the Gen III 3SGTEs have different exhaust cam profiles. It is common for the Gen II guys to retard their exhaust cam by 6 degrees to gain a more solid and efficient powerband, but I'm not sure if they have to buy a new cam gear or just use the stock one. I wish I knew more and I'm kinda curious to see where this this thread goes when some experience chimes in.

On the exhaust side you can actually retard 5 degrees on the stock cam gear just by using the right dowel hole instead of the center one.

[peteyturbo]

Originally Posted by TROLL

Interestingly enough the reverse staggered setup was thought to be popular until a shop did some testing on 264/264, 272/264, and 272/272 and found that the reverse staggered setup performed the worst of the bunch. They did say that a normal staggered setup (264/272) wasn't tested at the same time but in other people's experience it showed an expected blend of the larger and smaller setups. (Thread in case anyone's curious: http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...ered+cams+test)

And I guess it all comes down to every motor behaving differently, so it'll respond differently to cams. I'd love to have my car sound like a lopey beast at idle, but there's no way it would benefit my setup. GSC did come out with some cams that seem promising and are a little more aggressive than 264s which, according to their in house testing (of course), outperform the HKS cams... but the HKS are time tested and very well liked, plus they were a really good deal .

Oh, and I just bought some sexy ass Jun cam gears, so "game on" with the degreeing. Jun actually takes stock cam gears and modifies them... not the blingiest out there but regarded as one of the best, and retains the stock teeth so it interfaces as Toyota designed it from the factory.
Still compiling all the parts here to take care of everything I want to, and still have a good bit of homework to do on all of this, but no rush.

HKS cams shopuld be thought of in stages.. They have the duration but not the lift until you get to their 3 most agressive for an application usually...You will be fine on stock springs with an hks 264 and probably even their 272 for that matter.If it were me I would just install the cams and be done, but I am not expecting that from you haha!!

At least if you are gonna go through with all this you should get some before and after data..

[TROLL]

Hmm thats not a bad idea to do some before and after dyno runs... if I can fit that in I will. The current piggyback I'm running isn't tuned since I haven't had a chance with all the other bs, but I'm planning to switch to something much simpler to set up which performs quite well for a lot of guys who are in the sub 800 whp range, so hopefully I can get that installed and have the car running well quick and easy.

And I agree, the cam gears are probably not necessary, nor is degreeing the cams. I don't know, but I got the Jun cam gears brand new for almost half off today so I figured that was a sign. I could just do the cams only, but valve seals go bad on a ton of 2JZs especially as they near 100k miles so I figure might as well while I'm in there, and if I'm gonna be removing the stock springs/retainers then what the hell. Haha I know I know... but that's my train of thought. Figure its kind of a pain in the ass install so might as well just do it once and bang it out.

Oh and I'm definitely learning this valvetrain stuff as I go but in case you're curious, HKS Cams for the 2JZ are:
256 duration, 8.7 mm lift
264 duration, 9.0 mm lift
272 duration, 9.3 mm lift
280 duration, 9.3 mm lift

This is HKS's hp chart for their cams in the 2JZ... unfortunately they dont list details on the setup, but it wouldn't be possible to hit 500 whp at 1 bar of boost without a single turbo upgrade. I'm sure at higher boost the differences would start to show more.