Well there's the ever-popular saying "Concealed means concealed", which is pretty much my motto when carrying (except when OCing obviously). To a certain point you can apply the whole 'what they don't know won't hurt em' thing to most public or private places. However, there is some validity to the idea that if a business clearly marks a property a free and easy kill zone... er, I mean a "gun free zone", and you carry anyway and are found out, it's grounds for a trespassing charge. Then again, concealed means concealed". :wink:

And if they kick you out, can they call the police and have you charged with disturbing the peace, along with all of the other BS charges cops bring against law abiding citizens who happen to be open carrying?

Oh not I don't mean apply the 'what they don't know won't hurt em' to gun free zones or places where it is clearly not permitted, I purely mean in places where it does not say either way where they might say something just to be d****

If they do, then you have a very strong case that a lawyer will help you win. Think about it this way...

If a manager kicks you out for wearing flip flops (OCing feet? lol) instead of closed-toe shoes like a junk yard would and the police are called, what if they charge you with disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace? How strong a case do you think you'll have then? It's official oppression... "the law" trying to enforce a law which doesn't exist by handing out punishments for ridiculous things which are perfectly legal. They may be activities which are not allowed by a certain property owner while on his/her property, but they are not illegal. Police officers can't just hand out tickets and charges... you have to actually break a law first.

Sure, you may be charged with anything, but it's a matter of

Truth.. let me rephrase my question then (and I'm sorry to open up this can of worms)

I never OC... I want to, but I know that the general public is afraid of guns and if I do, there is a good chance that cops will get involved. How do I avoid this problem while still exercising my constitutional rights?

Well that's why I said concealed means concealed. If a business or person has not mentioned anything about guns on their property, then just keep it hidden and go about your business. That's what I mean by 'what they don't know won't hurt em'. There's no reason to make an issue about something which isn't yet an issue.

As for being on property which has been marked:

18 Pa.C.S. § 3503: Criminal trespass

...

(b) Defiant trespasser.--
(1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place as to which notice against trespass is given by:
(i) actual communication to the actor;
(ii) posting in a manner prescribed by law or reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders;
(iii) fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed to exclude intruders;
(iv) notices posted in a manner prescribed by law or reasonably likely to come to the person's attention at each entrance of school grounds that visitors are prohibited without authorization from a designated school, center or program official; or
(v) an actual communication to the actor to leave school grounds as communicated by a school, center or program official, employee or agent or a law enforcement officer.
(2) Except as provided in paragraph (1)(v), an offense under this subsection constitutes a misdemeanor of the third degree if the offender defies an order to leave personally communicated to him by the owner of the premises or other authorized person. An offense under paragraph (1)(v) constitutes a misdemeanor of the first degree. Otherwise it is a summary offense.


So, basically, if you know you're not supposed to carry somewhere because an owner has put up a sign or has previously stated that they don't want you to carry on their property, then you are trespassing. However, you need to take it for what it's worth and make your own decision about carrying there. It's not illegal to carry in a mall where they have a no weapons policy (as it is illegal to carry in a courthouse, school, post office, etc.), but it may be made into an issue if they find you carrying and decide to be pricks about it. Personally, I carry everywhere except the actual off limits places. Plain and simple. Concealed means concealed.

You need to weigh how important it is to exercise your rights vs. how you might deal with a negative encounter.. including a legal battle if you get involved with one. Pa Patriot on PAFOA may have won his case, but he spent a sh*t ton of money on legal fees and lawyers and invested a sh*t ton of time into fighting his battle. His worked out in his favor, yours may not. Truthfully, it's a gamble. You're supposed to be allowed to OC without any trouble but the simple fact is that there's always a chance you'll end up being hassled by some piece of sh*t who either doesn't know the law or simply doesn't care.

With that said -- get some retention training and just try OCing. Once you get over the 'everyone is looking at me' feeling, you'll start to be amused at the mind blowing number of sheep among you. All that I have OCed, I've had two 'encounters' and they were both with guys who were OCing themselves. Seriously, no one has a f***ing clue. People are too worried about their cell phones and shopping and other mindless daily sheeple activities to notice even a gun strapped to your hip. It's really funny sometimes.

Remember, even after the thread with 'threats' from other TST members about calling the police, etc. if they saw anyone carrying a gun at the Sonic meet last year, I OCed the entire day and even stood right next to some of the people who were the loudest anti-gun voices in the thread. Talk about hilarious! Sheep will be sheep.

Which is why I just CC to avoid the hassle..


I was just thinking about that the other day actually...

Speaking of Sonic, I'm going to try to come this year. Do you guys wanna meet up then caravan down there? I figure since we're the gun people of TST, we should stick together. lol

Hell, Dave can roll in with his Scar and Jordan can show up with his M82 Barrett strapped to his back. lol

"nows the time you put IANAL in there buddy! And as far as having a case I think it all depends on how you react to them telling you to leave... sometimes "making a point" isnt all its cracked up to be... remember melanie haine (sp?) OCd at her daughters soccer game, was arrest and her LTCF was revoked (she was subsequently shot and killed by her husband so i guess having the LTCF revoked doesnt really matter any more in her case)

^ the above story is from my recollection so it may be slightly off.


if you plan to OC (which i personally think is stupid as **** [not you specifically doing it, it being done in general]) make sure you know ALL the laws regarding firearms, where you can carry, how to respond to LEOs if confronted, I would personally go as far as to carry a recording device with me. Look at the guy on PAFOA whos gun was confiscated by the PPD for a LONG time and IMO he was lucky to have gotten it back.. he has more horror stories about OC than anyone else I have ever come in contact with (and between me and you guys I think a lot of the encounters he has are because he comes off as a complete douche)

personally I think DC2 took it a step too far by telling the woman he was in fact carrying, I guess it all comes down to the tone in your voice and body language but from this keyboard commando station it seems as though you telling her that could easily be misconstrued as a threat, especially to sheeple who are gun scared to begin with.. one simple call from her to the police station could have ended up with your gun being taken, your LTCF being taken or worst case, you getting booked.. Obviously that is just my .02 and IANAL.... yet :mrgreen:

time for another IANAL (just trying to watch your back, I know you are very well versed in these matters, hell, I even consider you a friend. I would just hate to see you trying to be helpful turned back to stab you in the dick.

LASTLY brian, if you do plan to OC, please please please take a look at this site (if you already have not): http://paopencarry.org/

pring a few of these out: http://paopencarry.org/pdfs/Pennsylvania_Gun_Rights.pdf

and keep them on you when you are OCing... let us know how it goes!

out of curiosity... why do you want to oc?

Unless you're "that guy" with punisher grips on his 1911. :roll: I get stopped all the time by people when I'm OC-ing but it's mostly to ask me what's with the grips rather than "OMG HE'S GOT A GUN!!!"

The only issues I've had with OC-ing have come from none other than Walmart employee's. There is a Wally World no more than 3 blocks from my house in Wyo and I frequent it a few times a week. At least once a week I get an employee "following" me around the store. A few times they are brave enough to walk up to me and tell me that I have to "cover that thing up" to which my usual reply is "Ooops sorry didn't realize my zipper was down" at which point I get the ":bigeek:...no your gun". I politely tell them it's been beaten to death and that they should read their corporate policies again and that if they have an issue to go get the manager (whom I've become quite accustomed to seeing now) and they will straighten everything out. Out of all the times tho I've only been asked to leave once and that was by the manager the very first time. Now they basically just come over see it's me and tell the employee to go do something and leave me alone.

The worst was a woman cashier that as I entered through the garden center (back side of the store with a lot less traffic and ample parking + right by sporting goods & ammo:mrgreen:) decided to scream out as I was about 15ft past her "IS THAT A GUN?!?!" I continued walking like nothing happened and a few customers started pointing at me. She then proceeded to track me down at the ammo case and reassure me that I was carrying a gun. (Thanks ma'am) She told me I had to get out of the store and that she had already called the cops. I told her no problem I'll just finish paying for my ammo and be on my way outside to wait for the cops. The cashier at the ammo counter who knows me well enough by now just chuckled and continued pulling the ammo boxes I requested. She stormed off and was waiting for me at the exit with the manager. This was like my 2nd or 3rd encounter with this specific manager so he just allowed me to be on my merry way and wished me a good day.:lol: I haven't seen that woman cashier there since.:banned:

All valid points and I see your reasoning behind them. I mainly OC out of convenience. Especially in this time of year when I typically throw my jacket on and it covers me right up. However from time to time I just run into a store/restaurant/establishment and don't throw my jacket on. So rather than pull my tshirt over it and in my mind make it even more obvious that I'm carrying (because the holster I'm wearing isn't intended to be covered up therefore leaving a definitive print)...I just leave it out and OC since I'm within my legal rights to do so (within reason of where I am and all the other laws blah blah blah).

I am fine with people OC'ing... however i get nervous (as should all of you) because when one OC's they become an ambassador of sorts for gun owners... there are quite a few retards on PAFOA who are "PROUD 2%-ers" that i dont think should even be allowed to own a gun based off **** i have read from them over there... I certainly dont want those dumb asses representing me! munky, mike, you guys i trust with that "power" (essentially thats what it is, a power)

when i carry its always CC... nobody is the wiser therefore I generally can not voice my opinion to the sheeple regarding 2a and the related issues, people who OC "because its their right" or to prove a point leave a bad taste in my mouth and I get nervous every day... we are SO CLOSE to NJ, and thats not saying we are going to adopt their asinine gun laws, but ya never know!

Thanks for the info!

Honestly, I want to try OC'ing out just to see what it feels like (if that makes any sense)

99% of the time I will CC simply because I don't want to disturb the flock and draw un-needed attention to myself... But for that 1% of the time, I want to feel the freedom that comes with openly carrying my firearm.

I completely understand, but PLEASE do as much research as possible! let us know how it goes (more than likely no one will notice) haha and you will be "worked up" the first time for nothing.

before you do, do as mike said... weight the pro's and con's and weigh them carefully!

I was reading over that paopencarry.org info section and one thing they suggested was to try your first few open carries with other people who OC. Can help ease the tension, plus you can pick up a few tips that you may not have discovered when doing research.

haha true, i wanted one since i was a little kid seeing them in the movies.

The first time I OC'd was a few months ago, and I just went to my local wawa to get gas and a pack of marlboro's. I got a few looks but 99% of the people in the store could tell just by looking at me that I wasn't a gang member or some lunatic coming to shoot the place up. We should all OC at the sonic meet this year. Why the hell not right?

I'm down.. I should probably get a better OC holster though because the only one I have is the plastic holster that came with my XDM and I'm not sure how well it will handle any person trying to take my gun.

The only issue I see with that is if someone were to make a big enough stink about it beforehand or the day of the event we could legally be asked to leave the premises. I for one would be highly pissed if I went all the way up there and was told to leave after getting there...and I'm an advocate for OCing. But sometimes you just need to know the time and place which is what I think Dave is trying to convey. Cause I know there are a lot of people on PAFOA that will OC just to OC and prove a point that they can do it whether you like it or not. They will cut off their nose to spite their face if you know what I mean. That's all fine and dandy...but I'd rather not go there and have to deal with the police. With the amount of anti-gun people on here...I think if we band together and show up there...issues will be quick to follow. It's sad...but unfortunately true.