Will Removing Balance Shaft Reduce Engines Life?

[SvicksTc]

Alright so ive been doing a lot of research on removing my balance shaft....

First off ive read its mearly there in the 2az-fe to help with noise, vibration, harshness or NVH. And that removing it will have no negative effect on the vibration that is happening near the crank shaft assembly (Very important as you well know). That it is like having a padded room in the event of the earthquake, it is still not going to change how hard the earthquake is happening, just cushioning it, Right?

Also, from reading articles straight released by toyota on the engine specifictions, that no where in the statements does it say the balance shaft is there to balance anything at all, just reduce vibration and noise....

Ive seen people do it on forums and produce realtive gains on the dyno with the simpe removal of the balance shaft, plugging a hole, tapping a hole....

I know other people have done this on many other car applications, but its always an arguement like why not to buy rota rims, etc. haha

So I want to hear what some of you guys/guru's think?

[CleanNeon98]

I say if it's there, it's probbably there for a reason.

[twastheglow]

They're there to help dampen engine vibration by spinning twice as fast as your crank in the opposite direction. I can't speak for all cars, but I know the QR25DE motor in Spec V's benefit quite a bit from it. It also gives greater oil capacity which is never bad. I haven't heard of a single issue from removing them in anyone's motor. But, that's not to say it won't. I would ask Toyota guys about your motor specifically.

[SvicksTc]

Well from understanding all the articles, post, other car forums, and other engines that its there more for a smooth ride, and since that is what generally car makers are after they add this creature comforts to enhance the ride comfort....

I dont need that slight creature comfort, and engine vibration reduction in the cabin....

Also looking at other motors that toyota uses, some dont have balance shafts in them but might be compensated by the hydro motor mounts, or heavier flywheel hence why they dont need a balance shaft and why the motor wont get stressed without it, because without it might not need it....


Or I may be completely mis-understanding evertyhing im reading.... which im doubting since people are doing it and not seeing problems with it, or the ones that do it are just being biased?

[SvicksTc]

They're there to help dampen engine vibration by spinning twice as fast as your crank in the opposite direction. I can't speak for all cars, but I know the QR25DE motor in Spec V's benefit quite a bit from it. It also gives greater oil capacity which is never bad. I haven't heard of a single issue from removing them in anyone's motor. But, that's not to say it won't. I would ask Toyota guys about your motor specifically.

I have been looking a lot at not only my motor, inparticular being boosted and other toyota motors and released articles on motor specifictions, etc....

There have been some threads created about dyno proven results of the 2az-fe with removed balance shaft.....Not sure if it was DD though...

My car is technically my DD, but doesnt see miles being at school....So ive been working on slowly building it to the point where i have to get another car :-p But dont tell my parents that hahaha

[Keeper1343]

i know on hondas its not a big deal at all... But for the couple of HP's your gonna get out of it, its not worth it at all. You might see like 2-3 HP. Not worth it in my opinion. Then you have to deal with everytime your motor is at idle, rattling inside the car. Thats annoying. Just keep them in there. Your car is not a race car. (no offense in anyway)

[twastheglow]

Well from understanding all the articles, post, other car forums, and other engines that its there more for a smooth ride, and since that is what generally car makers are after they add this creature comforts to enhance the ride comfort....

I dont need that slight creature comfort, and engine vibration reduction in the cabin....

Also looking at other motors that toyota uses, some dont have balance shafts in them but might be compensated by the hydro motor mounts, or heavier flywheel hence why they dont need a balance shaft and why the motor wont get stressed without it, because without it might not need it....


Or I may be completely mis-understanding evertyhing im reading.... which im doubting since people are doing it and not seeing problems with it, or the ones that do it are just being biased?

You are correct in what you said about it making a smoother ride, etc. That IS why manufacturers develop those kinds of systems.

By getting rid of them you're removing some parasitic drag and improving throttle response and freeing up more power to go to the wheels. And like I said before, it improves oil capacity because there's just an empty space where the BS's used to be.

[JimH]

The DSM guys do it to since one of them is driven by the crank on a belt. This tends to break and take out the timing belt which is a no no on an interference engine. A lotta guys run without them with just a small vibration within a 500 rpm window. I'll be doing it shortly since I spun that bearing and I'm losing oil pressure because of it.

[twastheglow]

i know on hondas its not a big deal at all... But for the couple of HP's your gonna get out of it, its not worth it at all. You might see like 2-3 HP. Not worth it in my opinion. Then you have to deal with everytime your motor is at idle, rattling inside the car. Thats annoying. Just keep them in there. Your car is not a race car. (no offense in anyway)

IIRC in the QR motor, it was much more beneficial than in some Honda motors from what he's saying. I know nothing about Toyota motors so how much power you may see is beyond me.

[SvicksTc]

Ya im trying to find the dyno graphs of a boosted 2az-fe with removed balance shaft, etc...

I have to drop my pan anyway since its leaking at the tap, so i got a new pan and getting a bung welded in this time instead, so since my pan is goign to be off its going to be right there to remove

[twastheglow]

Ya im trying to find the dyno graphs of a boosted 2az-fe with removed balance shaft, etc...

I have to drop my pan anyway since its leaking at the tap, so i got a new pan and getting a bung welded in this time instead, so since my pan is goign to be off its going to be right there to remove

If you can find any graphs of before and after it would be helpful...boosted or not.

As it's already been stated, some motors benefit much more than others.

[Scapegoat]

screw "smooth"... i love the shaking in my srt due to the solid motor mounts... makes me feel like i'm actually in a sporty car, and not a neon :lol:

[Jjaeger240]

So is this working pretty much as a damper for your crankshaft to prevent vibration? Yes, leave it there unless you like your engine being very volatile in high rpms and causing very rapid decrease in the life of your motor.

And said above, if the factory put it in to balance the harmonics, needless to say it was probably precautionary due to a problem they discovered during testing.

[SvicksTc]

So is this working pretty much as a damper for your crankshaft to prevent vibration? Yes, leave it there unless you like your engine being very volatile in high rpms and causing very rapid decrease in the life of your motor.

And said above, if the factory put it in to balance the harmonics, needless to say it was probably precautionary due to a problem they discovered during testing.

ya but in reading articles released by toyota it never mentions once the shaft is there to balance anything....

I know the crankshaft assmebly is very important and that being messed up will cause major problems.... but what i am getting at is its only there to prevent vibration inside the cabin....(from what i take out of all the readings)

like i said think of it this way a padded room during an earthquake, the room comforts you far away from the earthquake but that doesnt change the vibration of the earthquake at the original point aka near the crankshaft assembly...

[OutToWinPAHC]

I say leave it on there. I have seen them go bad / come off on interference V8 motors and 1-2 passes without it the motor becomes a paperweight. The last thing you want is vibration on the crankshaft (bearing wear, rod knock, wrist pin fatigue, flat spots on rings, and bore damage). If you want to save rotational mass, get a lightweight flywheel.

[SvicksTc]

I say leave it on there. I have seen them go bad / come off on interference V8 motors and 1-2 passes without it the motor becomes a paperweight. The last thing you want is vibration on the crankshaft (bearing wear, rod knock, wrist pin fatigue, flat spots on rings, and bore damage). If you want to save rotational mass, get a lightweight flywheel.

Waiting for my clutch to go, then will add 12lb flywheel with clutch....

Why replace something when it grabs now

[twastheglow]

So is this working pretty much as a damper for your crankshaft to prevent vibration? Yes, leave it there unless you like your engine being very volatile in high rpms and causing very rapid decrease in the life of your motor.

And said above, if the factory put it in to balance the harmonics, needless to say it was probably precautionary due to a problem they discovered during testing.

That's not 100% accurate by any means.

[SvicksTc]

See I think me and Mike are on the same page of thought here, and like in all the other threads ive looked at this has been the case of arguement....

Which is good because i want to hear other people's thoughts or i wouldnt of made this thread....

[twastheglow]

See I think me and Mike are on the same page of thought here, and like in all the other threads ive looked at this has been the case of arguement....

Which is good because i want to hear other people's thoughts or i wouldnt of made this thread....

I'm fairly confident that the people whom are strictly against it because "it sounds like a bad idea" haven't really read much about what they do, how they work, and what removing them means/does. I have when I was looking into doing it to my Spec V. I just never got around to doing it because I sold the car and bought my S13 4 years ago.

[Jjaeger240]

That's not 100% accurate by any means.

Yes, all motors differ in how they can handle and respond without a damper but look at any Hyper Raman scattering plots of it to realize that a damper will naturally increase the life of a motor.

See I'm confused by what you're saying [op], are you saying that this is no way related to the engine or managing any of it's components. It's just an accessory on a pulley to somehow quiet the interior? I'm confused as to what you're referring to and what it's actually used for/how it works.

[Keeper1343]

do you have a replacement crank pulley as well??? or is it stock?

[twastheglow]

Yes, all motors differ in how they can handle and respond without a damper but look at any Hyper Raman scattering plots of it to realize that a damper will naturally increase the life of a motor.

See I'm confused by what you're saying [op], are you saying that this is no way related to the engine or managing any of it's components. It's just an accessory on a pulley to somehow quiet the interior? I'm confused as to what you're referring to and what it's actually used for/how it works.


I completely agree with that statement. That's why I've told him to research the **** out of HIS motor because I don't know enough about it. Balance shafts, IIRC, are there primarily to damper a very specifc rpm range (which is usually quite small). Will it shorten the life of the motor and by how much?...that I'm not sure...possibly. But boosting a non-boosted motor can also shorten it's life. I emphasize can.

[twastheglow]

do you have a replacement crank pulley as well??? or is it stock?

Good question!

[SvicksTc]

Development of Polymer Gear Balance Shaft System for 2AZ-FE Engine.Accession number;01A0151367
Title;Development of Polymer Gear Balance Shaft System for 2AZ-FE Engine.
Author;ISHIKAWA MAKOTO(Toyota Mot. Corp.) NAKAMURA YUKIO(Toyota Mot. Corp.) HORI KOHEI(Toyota Mot. Corp.) KODAMA NORIKAZU(Toyota Mot. Corp.) HOSOI HIROSHI(Toyota Mot. Corp.) HORITA YUJI(Toyota Mot. Corp.)
Journal Title;Toyota Tech Rev

Journal Code:F0431A

ISSN:0916-7501

VOL.50;NO.2;PAGE.52-57(2000)
Figure&Table&Reference;FIG.17, REF.3
Pub. Country;Japan
Language;Japanese
Abstract;The in-line four-cylinder engine, when compared to engines with more cylinders, has numerous advantages, such as lighter weight, lower cost, lower fuel consumption, and compact size, but it also has the disadvantage of large secondary rotational vibration. In recent years, the mounting of a secondary balance shaft has become more common as a means of eliminating this vibration. One objective in the development of the 2AZ-FE engine was the development of a balance shaft with high overall performance, including lower drive noise. A polymer gear, which has never been used until now, was selected for the drive method. The authors succeeded in commercializing this technology for the first time in the world and ensured its reliability by promoting the simultaneous development of new polymer materials and an optimal shock-absorbing mechanism. At the same time, concerted efforts to reduce cost, friction torque, and weight resulted in 50% reductions in these factors in comparison with the conventional 5S-FE engine. (author abst.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Straight from the Toyota press room!!!
http://www.toyota.com/toyotaSearch/search?...s&locale=en

The 16-valve DOHC engine uses VVT-i. Undersquare, with a bore of 3.48 inches and a stroke of 3.78 inches, it displaces 2,362 cc or 144.1 ci and operates with a 9.8:1 compression ratio to produce 158 hp at 6,000 rpm and 162 lb-ft of torque at 4,000 rpm. Its horsepower and torque curves cross at about 5,200 rpm.

Features include enhanced bore circularity for reduced friction, a block reinforced for additional rigidity, new, lighter-weight pistons and new piston shape, with an optimized skirt for reduced friction. This engine also uses a balance shaft for vibration suppression, and oil jets to help piston cooling.
Finally, this engine's exhaust system is improved to provide lower backpressure for improved output.
The 2.4-liter engine transmits its power through the five-speed manual transmission, but is available with a five-speed automatic. This is an ECT that is light and compact, and that uses a highly efficient torque converter.

[SvicksTc]

I Have an Agency Lightweight Crank Pulley

edit: i believe its a 500rpm range

[Keeper1343]

Good question!

It a good thing i asked!!!... lol. But i also would like to add that even if he found good dyno of it etc etc.... They don't know in 20K miles what will happen. Of course everyone will say it runs better, but then later on it will fail. I honestly think that deleting them is a bad idea because of the bearings.

Mike... his motor was built to be mildly boosted as well from the factory.

[SvicksTc]

No. 3 counterweight drives twin contra-rotating balance shafts in the shaft housing within the lower crankcase

Edit: people have been running them deleted on 2az-fe for 2+ years and many over 20k+ miles

[Keeper1343]

I Have an Agency Lightweight Crank Pulley

edit: i believe its a 500rpm range


then you shouldn't get rid of the shafts... your motor will fail if you have a light weight pulley without the torque damper in it and shafts removed.... its only a matter of time.

[SvicksTc]

with motor mounts and Torque Dampner im not sure how much my motor is going to be moving? hence why i say i dont care about vibration haha

[twastheglow]

It a good thing i asked!!!... lol. But i also would like to add that even if he found good dyno of it etc etc.... They don't know in 20K miles what will happen. Of course everyone will say it runs better, but then later on it will fail. I honestly think that deleting them is a bad idea because of the bearings.

Mike... his motor was built to be mildly boosted as well from the factory.

Also very true. That's why when I was looking into doing it, I spoke personally with people whom had done this mod and ran the car for 20-40k miles to see what happened. I realize that even that doesn't necessarily prove anything, but it helps.

I didn't know his motor was. Either way, I was just using that as a very general point.

[Keeper1343]

they aren't just talking about vibration of the car.... they are talking about internal vibration... Its kinda like hitting the rev limiter in your car... from it constantly spiking up and down, the bearings will wear fast

[twastheglow]

I guess here are my thoughts...

If you can afford to purchase another motor used, then by all means go for it. Your car is new so I'm assuming motors aren't that cheap. But with older cars, where you can pick up a used motor for $500, it's worth it. The cost to replace is very small.

[SvicksTc]

I see what your saying with having a leight weight crank pulley and concerning to harmonic vibration....but im saying with new mounts on the way and torque dampner i cant see my motor rocking much?

I mean i have the stock crank pulley, but then again putting that back on then removing the balance shafter kinda defeats the purpose doesnt it?

edit: 500 dollar for a TC motor, haha ill buy 20 :)

[twastheglow]

I see what your saying with having a leight weight crank pulley and concerning to harmonic vibration....but im saying with new mounts on the way and torque dampner i cant see my motor rocking much?

I mean i have the stock crank pulley, but then again putting that back on then removing the balance shafter kinda defeats the purpose doesnt it?

edit: 500 dollar for a TC motor, haha ill buy 20 :)

Your motor could be encased in a cement block and it will still have internal vibration. It has nothing to do with how still your motor sits.

I guess if you wanted to spend big bucks and get a fully balanced rotating assembly, this wouldn't be a problem. LOL

And yeah, I'm pretty ****ing sure you can't pick up a TC motor that cheap...that was my point.

[SvicksTc]

Ahh i see, well back the white board with the research and what these guys where running with stock crank pulley or not :(

and cement casing FTW! haha

[Keeper1343]

dude... stop thinking of the "vibration" as something outide the motor.... When you get motor mounts like that it doesn't nothing for the motor... Never has. The vibration is the motor shaking internally. Internally stressing movement will cause bearings to wear. Taking off your stock damper will cause this even more probably. The crank actually twists and effects with the timing as well. You can buy good lightweight pulleys with a damper in them. other than that leave them alone. Stop looking at stupid places to make power. Try doing some motor work instead of bolt ons (or bolt offs lol) The balancers shaft removal will mutiply your problem in the long run

[jjm4life]

i say take it out. but all i know is from what i have read, i have no practical experience. maybe run a harmonic damper to compensate?

[Keeper1343]

Your motor could be encased in a cement block and it will still have internal vibration. It has nothing to do with how still your motor sits.

I guess if you wanted to spend big bucks and get a fully balanced rotating assembly, this wouldn't be a problem. LOL

And yeah, I'm pretty ****ing sure you can't pick up a TC motor that cheap...that was my point.



MIKE you beat me to it dammit lol

[SvicksTc]

dude... stop thinking of the "vibration" as something outide the motor.... When you get motor mounts like that it doesn't nothing for the motor... Never has. The vibration is the motor shaking internally. Internally stressing movement will cause bearings to wear. Taking off your stock damper will cause this even more probably. The crank actually twists and effects with the timing as well. You can buy good lightweight pulleys with a damper in them. other than that leave them alone. Stop looking at stupid places to make power. Try doing some motor work instead of bolt ons (or bolt offs lol) The balancers shaft removal will mutiply your problem in the long run

I understand exactly what your saying, just like the debate against running a light weight pulley and the inbalance that gives.....

but looking for stupid places for power, i guess some may say that, but i didnt know there wasnt places i wasnt suppose to look for to find power?

[twastheglow]

I guess the point I was trying to make earlier that I didn't really get across was, when I was looking at doing it, I had the money to replace the motor if it failed. I could have ripped the BS's out, run it ragged, and if it ever failed because I did that (even though Jim Wolf Technologies sold a BS removal kit), I had the capital to purchase another QR motor.

My point is, I'm all for you trying this out IF you can afford to purchase another motor if the time comes.

[JSpecV03]

i know on my car removing the Balance shaft actually allows the engine to rev alot quicker and some people actually picked up a little hp. also it allows for a higher oil capacity to compensate for the possibilty of spinning bearings. the vibrations aren't to bad either.
ive never heeard of a QR motor failing because of this. there are many boosted QR's with this mod.
but then again every motor is differant, some can handle it, some cant

[twastheglow]

MIKE you beat me to it dammit lol

That's what all the girls tell me too. :mad: :rotfl:

[Keeper1343]

if you were building an absolute race car and didn't have to care about reliablity then fine... theres guys that break there motor down after every race day... your not one of them, ya know?

[twastheglow]

i know on my car removing the Balance shaft actually allows the engine to rev alot quicker and some people actually picked up a little hp. also it allows for a higher oil capacity. the vibrations aren't to bad.

That's what I've been posting. I used to have an '04 Spec V. Read my posts sucka. lol

[SvicksTc]

Ya i mean if my motor blew, it would get replaced would i be happy about it prolly not that much haha but like i said i made this thread to get opinions and ive come to realize the research i did needs to go further and reaccess the whole thing over again....

Which is cool, cuz im at college and who studies anyway? *reaches for bottle opener*

[Keeper1343]

i know on my car removing the Balance shaft actually allows the engine to rev alot quicker and some people actually picked up a little hp. also it allows for a higher oil capacity. the vibrations aren't to bad.

that is completly true... however it is not very smart. You are better off getting a light flywheel. Thats more weight then any shaft removal or crank pulley.

[twastheglow]

Ya i mean if my motor blew, it would get replaced would i be happy about it prolly not that much haha but like i said i made this thread to get opinions and ive come to realize the research i did needs to go further and reaccess the whole thing over again....

Which is cool, cuz im at college and who studies anyway? *reaches for bottle opener*

x2! I agree.

[JSpecV03]

That's what I've been posting. I used to have an '04 Spec V. Read my posts sucka. lol

yeah i remember reading that somewhere else.
im doing this mod in about 2 weeks.

that is completly true... however it is not very smart. You are better off getting a light flywheel. Thats more weight then any shaft removal or crank pulley.

agreed. i see it this way also, its one less thing to break.
also i think pulleys are about useless, atleast on my car, the only thing you gain out of it is the car isnt as sluggish when the a/c is on, so the weight of the stock balancer will comp for the balance shafts not being there. and the light weigh flywheel will keep things in check

[Keeper1343]

I look at it this way.... its not a matter if you can afford it or not. Are you the type of person that says... "im just building the **** out of this motor and when it blows, (not "if") i don't care. I just slap another one in there and do it again".


Im not one of those people at all. And if your not one of those people than don't do it.

[Keeper1343]

yeah i remember reading that somewhere else.
im doing this mod in about 2 weeks.



agreed. i see it this way also, its one less thing to break.
also i think pulleys are about useless, atleast on my car, the only thing you gain out of it is the car isnt as sluggish when the a/c is on, so the weight of the stock balancer will comp for the balance shafts not being there. and the light weigh flywheel will keep things in check


Its not gonna keep anything in check... its just gonna be more responsive... Even doing that can throw the balance off but atleast you have the other things on to help with it.

[JimH]

If I were you I'd just get a fluid damper type pulley and yank the shafts. This will help with any internal vibration but still do what you want. If you are doing it just for hp though I wouldn't bother. There won't be anything you will notice. I just plan on doing it since I'd rather wear a bearing then bend every valve if the belt driving it breaks.

[Keeper1343]

so you would rather replace a motor, than a head??? riiiiiiight.

[JimH]

A bearing...Yes I would rather then yanking a head apart to replace 16 valves, guides, possible piston heads. YES!!!

Look at final cost. bearings and typical gasket sets or.....most of a top end and possible some bottom.

[JimH]

And I do all my own work...So labor is on me.

[Keeper1343]

so you don't think that by the bearings going, that nothing else will come of that??? you could throw something and blow your motor.

[JimH]

so you don't think that by the bearings going, that nothing else will come of that??? you could throw something and blow your motor.

Could being a clue word. If I spin a bearing there is still chance for minimal damage. If I jump teeth on my belt or break it all together...there is no hope.

For instance. I currently have been driving on a spun balance shaft bearing for 8,000 miles now. It hasn't seized...yet. But it still does run and damage does exist, but not to the degree of a snapped T-belt.

[SvicksTc]

Here is some info i got from a Company Called P-Tuning Loacted in MA, not sure if any of you heard of them but do some sick work especially for the TC. They have a turbo kit for production sale that is based off of their P-Tuning Time Attack Car and also produced Staged Built Engines....Any whoo here is what they had to say....

Eliminating the balancer shaft assembly is not worth it on a stock motor, especially with the motor still in the car. To do it right, the motor should be out of the car, the complete balancer assembly, bearings, etc. should all be removed. The oil feed hole to the balancer bearing should be tapped and plugged with a threaded set screw and loctite--not jb weld. In addition if you're removing the balancer assembly to free up hp, the balancer drive gear on the crank should be removed as well--can't do that without the motor apart. This is all done on our built motors.

Yes, the balancer assembly does reduce engine vibration given the stock motor rotating assembly, but if you lightened your crank, run different rods, pistons or increase the redline, it would throw off the rotating assembly mass and the balancer assembly is no longer as effective. As far as racing motor is concerned, the less rotating mass the engine has to turn the more hp you'll free up. When you start upping the rev limiter, the less moving parts you have, the less chance for something to fail.

One of the main reasons DSM guys removed the balancer assembly is for reliability reasons. The balancer shafts on the 4g63 motor is driven by a balancer belt similiar to the timing belt. If the balancer belt snaps, it will take out the timing belt as well. So the primary reason is for realiability issues and the other reason is for freeing up hp and again raising the revs and having different components weights for the rods, pistons, etc, throughs off the effectiveness of the balancer shafts.

MrC
_________________

Well seeing that i have a light weight crank pulley, and springs, valves, retainers on the way to rasie that redline/rev limiter im going to not invest time into doing this......Unless of course something happens to this motor down the road and i start with a fresh build

[TurboTagTeam]

As long as your still running a dampened crank pully...you can ditch the balance shaft.

If your running a solid crank pulley...I'd keep the balance shaft.

The reason for this is torsional vibrations that come through the crank. If you get too much your thrust bearings will take a beating and you'll smoke your main's. Yes, smoking a con-rod bearing is sometimes a relatively easy fix. But if you smoke a main bearing...your ****ed any you look at it.