Offset vs. Spoke Design for Brake Clearance....

[whitezenki]

Offset doesnt clear big brakes, spoke design does. You can have a +17 that doesnt clear and -2 that does, it all comes down to how the spokes are shaped.

And he already said they are about 25 lbs, and as long as hes gettin track time hell be getting better. Im sure enkeis were a lot more than these too.

Money towards track time > money towards mods.

[lawdogg]

Offset doesnt clear big brakes, spoke design does. You can have a +17 that doesnt clear and -2 that does, it all comes down to how the spokes are shaped.

http://www.pansypatrol.com/people/clint/pictures/misc/wheeloffset.gif

Hope that clears things up for ya. :)

[whitezenki]

That clears nothing up, do you think that image shows how every single wheel is designed? No, it shows what an offset is, and how it works. Spoke design is what decides what wheels you clear. Thats why some wheels you can get different disk designs, like standard disk, or super low disk. That is what is involved to clear brakes. Some wheels like Work Equips need spacers in order to clear brakes no matter their offset, which in effect lowers the offset. You can buy them in +35 or +0 and your still gonna need a spacer if you dont have the right disk type.

Hope that clears things up for ya, dont think b/c an image you got from tire rack shows a certain wheel design, that every wheel in the industry is made that way.:)

Edit: http://www.ame-wheels.com/applicationguide/sheet006.htm I dont know what those wheels are, but if you notice the different disk designs, thats for brake clearance, you can get them in many different offsets, because offsets dont matter, disk/spoke design is what dictates brake clearance.

Double Edit: My cobra wheels are +33 offset, and they dont clear Z brakes without a spacer.

[lawdogg]

I believe we're discussing the same point. :)

If you'd like to feel empowered, yes you are correct to a point. I hope you can work out that whole temper thing. :p

[whitezenki]

I believe we're discussing the same point. :)

If you'd like to feel empowered, yes you are correct to a point. I hope you can work out that whole temper thing. :p

What? no temper, your just spreading false knowledge, and I'm preaching the truth.

Disk design dictates brake clearance, offset dictate coilover clearance. Thats it.

You seem to think offset dictates brake clearance, in which case you are wrong. If that were the truth than my +33 cobra wheels would clear my Z brakes just as my +30 Z wheels do. But thats not the case, and they dont, and you are wrong.

And thats why this discussion is bananas!!:banana::banana::banana::banana:

[lawdogg]

What? no temper, your just spreading false knowledge, and I'm preaching the truth.

Disk design dictates brake clearance, offset dictate coilover clearance. Thats it.

You seem to think offset dictates brake clearance, in which case you are wrong. If that were the truth than my +33 cobra wheels would clear my Z brakes just as my +30 Z wheels do. But thats not the case, and they dont, and you are wrong.

And thats why this discussion is bananas!!:banana::banana::banana::banana:

LOL bananas!!

You are partially correct. The other part of the whole being correct is the offset.

Check this out:
http://www.pansypatrol.com/what-you-need-to-know-before-you-buy-aftermarket-wheels/#more-76

:banana:

[whitezenki]

Brake Caliper Clearance (or “Frontspacing”)

Everything I’ve explained so far applies to cars and wheels in general, but this section is specifically directed at VR-4 and Stealth TT owners, as well as owners of any other car that has very large and oddly-shaped brake calipers. Remember that backspacing refers to the distance the wheel protrudes into the wheelwell and that there is a limit because the strut cannot be moved. There is a parallel situation on the other side: the caliper has to fit in the space between the spokes and the centerline. Imagine for a minute our hypothetical 8” wheel with an offset of +75mm (or 3”). The backspacing would be huge (7”) of course, but on the other side the caliper has to fit inside, at most, an inch of room.

With large calipers like the stock ones on the VR-4, you need to size your wheel such that you have a lot of “front” space—room for the caliper. Wheels with spokes that curve inwards or wheels with significant lip often cause VR-4 owners problems because the backspacing is correct but the caliper, which extends quite far out away from the car’s hub and towards the outside face of the wheel, hits the spokes. You can measure this distance on a VR-4 or any car by putting a ruler on the outer face of the caliper (where it says “Mitsubishi” on a VR-4 caliper) and then measure the distance between the ruler and the car’s hub. However, it can be difficult to judge the spoke shape of aftermarket wheels simply by looking at a picture.

That’s why it’s best to choose wheels with little or no lip and with spokes that do not curve inward. The 5Zigen FNO1R-C is a very popular wheel for the VR-4 in part because there is hardly any lip and the spokes curve outward, removing the risk of caliper interference.

Note: The offset of some aftermarket wheels is changed by moving the entire spider (spokes and hub) relative to the ring of the wheel. In this case, the “frontspacing” will not change with offset. In these situations it is more difficult to determine if the wheel will clear the caliper, and test-fitting may be the only option.

All that tells me is some wheel companies change their offset by... wait for it... wait for it... changing their spoke design!!!! Leading me back to "disk design dictates brake clearance" Any offset can clear big brakes, its the disk/spoke design that is the only, read it again, ONLY factor in the context of this discussion. Any given +33 isnt anymore likely to clear than a +0, even the picture you showed leads me to believe a +0 would be more likely to clear than a +33 anyway. What it comes down to is how the spoke design is, even the article you posted, on your car, shows me that.

He even says in the second paragraph that the backspacing may be correct, but the spoke design will keep you from fitting the VR-4 calipers

Here, ill quote it for you:
cause VR-4 owners problems because the backspacing is correct but the caliper, which extends quite far out away from the car’s hub and towards the outside face of the wheel, hits the spokes.

[lawdogg]

LOL!! I know! It's why I said we're arguing the same point! :banana:

[whitezenki]

I dont understand, how are spoke design and offset the same thing? Damn im confused, but I think I proved my point, so all is good here. lol

RPF-1's seem to be track wheel of choice lately, they are cool but how much do they run for 17's generally?

[TROLL]

shhhh... they're about $1000 a set. dont tell anyone though, people think my wheels are so fancy... haha.

and spoke design and offset are different, but they do dictate each other somewhat and are definitely related. either one on their own will not dictate clearance, but a combination of both will. so you're both very smart and don't need to argue with each other :)

[lawdogg]

I dont understand, how are spoke design and offset the same thing? Damn im confused, but I think I proved my point, so all is good here. lol

I think we both did. :-p

:partyman:

[whitezenki]

But when it comes down to it, any offset can clear big brakes, but not any spoke design. In some designs offset MAY dictate spoke design, but generally the disk design is set before the offset, and if a certain wheel clears at a +0 it will clear at a +35 as well. Wheel designers dont just move the hub back and forth and lt the computer do what it will with the spokes, theres a lot more to it than that.

To say he bought the wheels in +35 to clear big brakes is counterintuitive, b/c it means nothing. When you want to clear big brakes you dont say "well i need at least a +31," you look at the disk/spoke design to see if it will clear. The first question a 240 owner asks when buying wheels is "will it clear Z brakes?" because even with the offset and width in the ad, you dont know unless you know the spoke design and disk type of the wheels.

We are past the design stages here, so offset doesnt dictate spoke design, if we were making the wheels that would be another case, but were not, all we have is whats made, and the spoke design is all we can count on to gaurantee or deny big brake clearance.

Even the FN's spoken of in that article clear big brakes in a +10 and a +35 offset, because its the spoke design that dictates clearance.

Cliffnotes: When buying wheels to clear big brakes, you dont check the offset, going to a higher or lower offset will not gaurantee fitment, spoke design will.

[lawdogg]

You just want to have the last word, don't you? HAHA

[whitezenki]

You just want to have the last word, don't you? HAHA

No i want you guys to understand that saying offset dictates clearance is wrong. I dont want people reading this and thinking as long as they get a +30 or better they will clear big brakes, because they wont.

[lawdogg]

No i want you guys to understand that saying offset dictates clearance is half right. I dont want people reading this and thinking as long as they get a +30 or better they will clear big brakes, because they might.

Fixed. :)

[whitezenki]

Yah your right, they might clear, it all comes down to the spoke design.

[lawdogg]

Yah your right, they might clear, it all comes down to the spoke design.

LOL.


































:screwy:

[Wiisass]

Whitezenki is right. Spoke design is the main factor in brake clearance. Offset, not so much. They're two different parameters. Saying offset determines brake clearance is like saying width does.

[lawdogg]

Haha, actually I read his last post wrong. But I am leaving my response to it up just in the spirit of this thread hijack, lol!!

Yes, it all comes down to offset and spoke design.

99% of all spokes only deviate from their offset by a certain amount either way, otherwise they would look retarded. Could you get a rim with 0 offset and extreme-bubbled-out spokes to clear a big caliper? Probably not.

So, when thinking about whether or not a normal rim is going to clear your caliper, you will get a good indication from the offset, but you won't know till you try it because the spokes could get in the way (or give some more clearance).

Thinking about just offset will not work, and looking at the spokes will not just work either.

NOW can we all have a beer?!??! :D

[whitezenki]

your wrong, sorry, the large majority of wheels deviate from their hub, its only through spoke design can you tell if they fit. Not by looking at the front, but from how the spokes are designed on the inside of the wheels. Even your arguement says "if you get a +0 wheel with bubbled out spokes it wont clear" showing once again that it is spoke design that you need to look at.

Troll, make this a new thread so NOPSTNS can have his back!

[OBEEWON]

sack meat

[Wiisass]

Rob, that's what I was going to say.

Wheel fitment straight from Stoptech:
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wheel_fitment.shtml

[lawdogg]

Yep. :) I <3 Stoptech's white pages. That was the next thing I was gonna link :p

[whitezenki]

Yah, it shows how you need to measure distance to the spoke for brake clearance, showing that its spoke design that is important.

And with that, I digress.

[S.Milone]

Wheel companies sell different faces for the same wheel with different back spacing. So the spoke design may be the same but the back spacing itself is different. You have have the same offset all at the same time.

[Wiisass]

Shawn, you aren't making any sense.

[whitezenki]

Shawn, you aren't making any sense.

I didnt want to say it.

[Nick 95 6sp]

put me into the "spoke/wheel design dictates brake clearance, not offset" column

I think whitezenki already said it: no matter what offset you look at, you can have a spoke design that will clear BBK's.

[NOPSTNS]

got the wheels today, and the fear of them clearing the BBK has come over me....anyone have the spec sheet/ template of the brembo 4 piston calipers?

im suddenly terrified

[Wiisass]

But you have the wheels, you have the brakes. If you have some way to jack up the car and remove the wheels that are on there, you have a perfect way to test fitment.

But if they don't fit, you can get away with a spacer. Not because it will change the offset but because it will space the spokes away from the caliper.

[whitezenki]

Just test fit them, but if they are anything like my Cobra wheels, your gonna need to space them out a bit.

Wider stance FTW.

[Barry'z (NJ)]

Can I play?

I think this makes it pretty clear...

Offset is the relation of hub face to wheel width center. A wheel could have an offset of 35 with 0 hub height.

Quick Illustration, 3 wheel designs, same offset, different hub height
http://zcon.photodump.org/files/12/Hub%20Height%20Ill.JPG

Real world

http://zcon.photodump.org/files/12/Hub%20Height.JPG

[NOPSTNS]

ugh yeah, cool, um i test fitted them and they fit great, i had to get some hub rings but i gave the dimensions to extreme psi and they came thru.

pretty soon (in my head at least) ill be gettin r comps for the spring race season and ill be ready to go. im gonna be usin these wheels and tire combo strictly for track days....
final specs are
18x9
5x114.3
+36

with 245/40 18 r comp nitto nt01 on all four corners

[whitezenki]

After driving my new car, 245 R compounds sound amazing.