Allowable Camber in PA.

[Tunerdad]

I have read through the entire act 175 inspection codes for Pa, plus my sons friend is an inspection mechanic. Why would the Northern Regional police pull my son over for having too much camber on his tires. They actually impounded the car after ripping the inspection stickers off. What is going on with these police. I have never run into a more immature group of officers in my life.
Anyone?

[Bates]

Picture of said car for reference?

[camopaint0707]

are you serious? Not sure of the law of impounding a car based on that nor ripping the stickers off. I'd get a lawyer asap. They could determine that the car was not road safe and the camber has to be to a way stupid amount for a REASONABLE cop to impound the car. Like they could impound the car if you were driving with just a wheel and no tire.

[Tunerdad]

I have to wait til I get home, the pictures are to big for this forum. The attorney we went to didn't want to take the case because he said you could probably find a cheaper one. He wanted a $2500 retainer. geez. I used to inspect cars and had a license to do so. The state police told me that anything that comes in as questionable is up to the discretion of the inspection mechanic. As long as there is no rule against it. This whole thing is power out of control and the police are being absolutely stone walling when my son calls to find out what is up. This is the Northern Regional police that patrol wexford, warrendale and wherever in Pa.
The cop that pulled him over actually told him he was missing four lug nuts on every wheel. duh, they are universal. They only have four lug nuts, he said they should have eight. Are we getting the mentality of this group of police yet?

[jpalamar]

I'm fairly certain a cop can impound your car if they feel it is not safe to drive. Excessive camber IS NOT SAFE. I think you should man up and pay what you gotta pay and make the car road worthy and safe to drive.

I have one thing to say to that officer... :thumbup:

[Bates]

If the cop deemed the car unsafe for driving, then I believe he has the right to impound the car, but I don't know how ridiculous the camber has to be for that to happen. I have been stuck behind people that have way too much camber and I am sorry to say, but they drive like grandmas swerving to avoid the smallest bump or hole, which in all honesty is not safe.

If I was a cop, and I saw this driving in front of me, not only would I impound it, I'd probably slap the driver lol.
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQK-E9gudaIrY52Z9grj8-qL1-B7dVKqsCApu-LMcim1RW6qOt0

[Bates]

I have to wait til I get home, the pictures are to big for this forum. The attorney we went to didn't want to take the case because he said you could probably find a cheaper one. He wanted a $2500 retainer. geez. I used to inspect cars and had a license to do so. The state police told me that anything that comes in as questionable is up to the discretion of the inspection mechanic. As long as there is no rule against it. This whole thing is power out of control and the police are being absolutely stone walling when my son calls to find out what is up. This is the Northern Regional police that patrol wexford, warrendale and wherever in Pa.
The cop that pulled him over actually told him he was missing four lug nuts on every wheel. duh, they are universal. They only have four lug nuts, he said they should have eight. Are we getting the mentality of this group of police yet? Was this an older cop or a younger one? Sounds like he might be an older cop.

I'm fairly certain a cop can impound your car if they feel it is not safe to drive. Excessive camber IS NOT SAFE. I think you should man up and pay what you gotta pay and make the car road worthy and safe to drive.

I have one thing to say to that officer... :thumbup:

Honestly, because of my dislike for excessive camber, I have to agree. I wish more cops would do that in my area.

[CleanNeon98]

Just because my car is exempt for emissions and passes, if an officer pulls me over and smells the fuel coming from my exhaust (no cat) he can still impound my car.

I can somehow picture this car already...

[Vr-4-Life]

lulzzzz

[Bates]

Just because my car is exempt for emissions and passes, if an officer pulls me over and smells the fuel coming from my exhaust (no cat) he can still impound my car.

I can somehow picture this car already...

I'm reserving judgement until I see the car. The cop could have just been a dick for all we know.

[Vr-4-Life]

Camber for show is stupid and childish, and unsafe... I see cars almost every day that are riding on two inches of tire.

I highly doubt an officer would go that far out of line unless the car deserved it.

I wonder if we'll ever get pics.

[Big_Jim]

I'm in for pics. I'd like to see what the results are. If its anything like the swagrabbit from H2Oi a couple years ago, I cant blame the police for impounding it.

[nsn240]

I'm in for pics. I'd like to see what the results are. If its anything like the swagrabbit from H2Oi a couple years ago, I cant blame the police for impounding it.

I remember watching that happen haha, I couldn't believe they drove that thing around oc like that... well anywhere for that matter

[Bates]

Perfect example: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2555818

[humanside]

I've found:
Title75 SS-4704 (3)probable cause (ii) Any police officer having probable cause to believe that a vehicle or its equipment is unsafe, not equipped as required or otherwise not in compliance with the law or regulations may inspect the vehicle or its equipment.

Chapter § 175.65. Tires and wheels.

(a) Condition of tires and wheels. Tires and wheels shall be in safe operating condition as described in § 175.80 (relating to inspection procedure).

Also (b) Tire standards. A vehicle specified under this subchapter shall have tires manufactured in conformance with standards in Chapter 159 (relating to new pneumatic tires). See 75 Pa.C.S. § 4525 (relating to tire equipment and traction surfaces). Tires with equivalent metric size designations may be used. Meaning that the tire must be made to fit the wheel, you cannot put a tire on a wheel that it was not designed for


Chapter 175.80 (e) beneath the vehicle (vii) There are other conditions or markings reasonably believed to render the tire unsafe for highway use.

AND (ix) A tire’s tread extends beyond the outer edge of the wheel housing inclusive of fender flares.

Why the sticker was removed:
SS-4703
(f) Authority of police.--Any police officer may stop any motor vehicle, mass transit vehicle or trailer and require the owner or operator to display an official certificate of inspection for the vehicle being operated. A police officer may summarily remove an unauthorized, expired or unlawfully issued certificate of inspection from any vehicle or mass transit vehicle. For the purposes of administering the requirements of regulations promulgated by the department, a qualified Commonwealth employee or an authorized department representative may remove an unauthorized, expired or unlawfully issued certificate of

Also, I would be interested to know what section the officer charged him with.

Long story short. The police are just trying to make the roads safer for other drivers. and if he is just trying to pick on "sportscars" or w/e, then don't make yourself a target. Its just like if you don't want a speeding ticket, then don't speed.

[Bates]

I've found:
Title75 SS-4704 (3)probable cause (ii) Any police officer having probable cause to believe that a vehicle or its equipment is unsafe, not equipped as required or otherwise not in compliance with the law or regulations may inspect the vehicle or its equipment.

Chapter § 175.65. Tires and wheels.

(a) Condition of tires and wheels. Tires and wheels shall be in safe operating condition as described in § 175.80 (relating to inspection procedure).

Also (b) Tire standards. A vehicle specified under this subchapter shall have tires manufactured in conformance with standards in Chapter 159 (relating to new pneumatic tires). See 75 Pa.C.S. § 4525 (relating to tire equipment and traction surfaces). Tires with equivalent metric size designations may be used. Meaning that the tire must be made to fit the wheel, you cannot put a tire on a wheel that it was not designed for


Chapter 175.80 (e) beneath the vehicle (vii) There are other conditions or markings reasonably believed to render the tire unsafe for highway use.

AND (ix) A tire’s tread extends beyond the outer edge of the wheel housing inclusive of fender flares.

Why the sticker was removed:
SS-4703
(f) Authority of police.--Any police officer may stop any motor vehicle, mass transit vehicle or trailer and require the owner or operator to display an official certificate of inspection for the vehicle being operated. A police officer may summarily remove an unauthorized, expired or unlawfully issued certificate of inspection from any vehicle or mass transit vehicle. For the purposes of administering the requirements of regulations promulgated by the department, a qualified Commonwealth employee or an authorized department representative may remove an unauthorized, expired or unlawfully issued certificate of

Also, I would be interested to know what section the officer charged him with.

Long story short. The police are just trying to make the roads safer for other drivers. and if he is just trying to pick on "sportscars" or w/e, then don't make yourself a target. Its just like if you don't want a speeding ticket, then don't speed.

Good post. I agree 100% with not making yourself a target, or at least an easy target.

[Got Insulin?]

Perfect example: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2555818

The OCMPD instagram account is actually a Vortex troll....

[jpalamar]

Thanks Kyle!

[camopaint0707]

still waiting on pics of the car

[Tunerdad]

Her VR-4-Life, is your car lowered or the exhaust been changed on your ride?

[Tunerdad]

Hope this picture makes it.

[Vr-4-Life]

I drive a Prius.

[Tunerdad]

Ya right, why would you be here then? Then I guess you know it is illegal to alter your suspension or exhaust in Pa. I'll bet you have done both. That makes you illegal and I hope they remove dangerous people like you off the road also.
But play the game, They have car shows in this area and the car there are cambered way worse.
And BTW his car is reconstructed which is also covered under a different section of the inspection codes. He is permitted to be only 12" from the road to any part of the horizontal bumper. he is also allowed to be 75 degrees off of the 90 degree mark on tires.
He has 7 degrees of camber right now. That is not outrageous by any means.

[Vr-4-Life]

I'm sure the cashier at the impound lot will agree.

[Tunerdad]

Its sitting in the police station, no charges for that. Anything intelligent you would like to add. Please, impress me.

[Bates]

Ya right, why would you be here then? Then I guess you know it is illegal to alter your suspension or exhaust in Pa. I'll bet you have done both. That makes you illegal and I hope they remove dangerous people like you off the road also.
But play the game, They have car shows in this area and the car there are cambered way worse.
And BTW his car is reconstructed which is also covered under a different section of the inspection codes. He is permitted to be only 12" from the road to any part of the horizontal bumper. he is also allowed to be 75 degrees off of the 90 degree mark on tires.
He has 7 degrees of camber right now. That is not outrageous by any means.

Honestly, it's not that bad, I have seen way worse. But to be honest, it might be enough for a cop to say it is unsafe. I am not a cop so I don't know.

Sounds like the cop was just being a dick and found some quick revenue when he pulled over your son.

My advice: Kill the camber and bring the car back to normal.

[Vr-4-Life]

Towing and storage costs Money... Police dont impound for free.

[TROLL]

Dudes, don't be dicks. Sounds like the guy has a legitimate question and concern and he is expressing it respectfully so please return the favor. TST is a community for all automotive enthusiasts, big and small, lowered and lifted.
Although I don't like some of the new trends in car modding, live and let live. I'll do what I want to my own car and anyone else can do the same for theirs.

Looking at the pics, although it is noticeable, it doesn't look as extreme as I expected for a cop to take action about it. I don't think any of us know for sure how to expect this one to play out legally though. Its probably pretty fuzzy so you may be able to come out on top if you fight it, but it depends how you feel after the research you've done and if you want to roll the dice.

[yellow2000S/R]

... He has 7 degrees of camber right now. That is not outrageous by any means.

:bigeek: More then 4* is outrageous by ALL means.

Get the proper wheel and tire sizes so you can stick to 4* or less. Probably has less contact patch, right now, then stock. Also, if toe isn't just right, it's going to cause excessive wear/heat and some (mostly cheaper) tires become 'greasy' and have even less traction.

You and your son = http://youtu.be/nGu8FPRDiSk?t=37s


IF I was a police officer, I'd impound it every time I saw it. It is 100% unsafe, especially for 'street' driving.

[humanside]

Ya right, why would you be here then? Then I guess you know it is illegal to alter your suspension or exhaust in Pa. I'll bet you have done both. That makes you illegal and I hope they remove dangerous people like you off the road also.
But play the game, They have car shows in this area and the car there are cambered way worse.
And BTW his car is reconstructed which is also covered under a different section of the inspection codes. He is permitted to be only 12" from the road to any part of the horizontal bumper. he is also allowed to be 75 degrees off of the 90 degree mark on tires.
He has 7 degrees of camber right now. That is not outrageous by any means.

Listen, buddy. You asked for help, and we gave it to you. You were wrong, stop begin dumb about it and making things personal. But since you did:

Taken from PENNDOT's r-title fact sheet:

PROCEDURE AND DOCUMENTATION REQUIRED
�� Reconstructed Vehicles must be restored to their original operating condition as designed by the vehicle manufacturer
and must conform to the original manufacturer's specifications and appearance. This includes (but is not limited to) air
bags, seat belt/restraint systems, emissions components, etc.

PENNSYLVANIA INSPECTION REQUIREMENTS
After the vehicle is titled and registered, reconstructed vehicles are subject to periodic safety inspections as well as
emission inspections (where required). Periodic inspections can be performed at any inspection station throughout
Pennsylvania. A vehicle is only required to be inspected at an enhanced vehicle safety inspection station for initial titling.

Also:

§ 19.4. Subsequent material alterations.

The owner of a reconstructed vehicle which undergoes a subsequent material alteration or restoration of a type defined in § 19.2 (relating to definitions) shall reapply for an appropriate certificate of title. Complete application, including new photographs, shall be made as provided in § 19.3 (relating to application for title for reconstructed vehicles or specially constructed vehicles).

You make statements without any supporting info. But, it sounds like you need to reapply for a new title, sir.

The vehicle is being brought to the attention of police, fix it and get it over with. If not, you'll be dealing with it all the time.

[schaffer]

Looks like the tire is a donut. I can't see all of the tire but the contact patch is pretty small. I'm also willing to bet that something else also is modified on the car, like the exhaust.


I'd probably have it towed too.

[camopaint0707]

that doesn't look like a safe amount of camber to me, the wheel looks like it will collapse inside.

[camopaint0707]

I can only imagine the tire wear

[david gettle]

My car is registered as "collectable", because of low production numbers for the options package it came with from the factory. When I moved to PA it had a modified exhaust on it. Because the "collectable" title was issued with the custom exhaust on the car, the custom exhaust is allowed. With "Collectable" as with "reconstructed" titles, photos are required, however with "collectable" additional documentation is also required, like what modifications were done to the car (and when) how much was paid for the modifications (sales tax paid to what state and how much), documentation from the car manufacturer showing production numbers for all of the options available for that model year (and total production run of the car model, and what country's they were sold in). Photos of my car for the title were taken of the front, back, both sides, engine bay (from top and underside), and the undercarriage, with specific photos of the exhaust system (as requested by PennDOT), as well as the passenger compartment of the car (for verification of options), because of the "collectable" registration it is unlawful for me to alter the exterior of the car. (except to have it repaired, or re-painted). My car is loud, however because the registration included the exhaust system that is on the car, it is authorized. The car because of the "collectable" title is emissions exempt, however it did pass PA and MD emissions testing before the title was changed. The car is also lowered, but the camber is set correctly (the full tread width of the tires makes contact with the road surface).

Before registering the car this way I took two weeks and read the entire PA motor vehicle code. Based on what I read, Tunerdad, your son needs to get his car repaired. The camber is unsafe according to the vehicle code.

[mr_eh]

hmmm. I'd pull him over and have it impounded, might have saved your sons life if the tire blew out while he was driving. which it's more apt to do due to the camber.

[Vr-4-Life]

They're proably going to crush the car.

[Bates]

They're proably going to crush the car.

Lol that is a little extreme.

[camopaint0707]

If I were the cop I might not have impounded the car but I would probably go on a crusade to stop this illegal camber. There was an issue in cinncy about Donk wheels as well. Another car mod that needs to die.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2011/04/the-donk-days-are-over-as-cincinnati-police-impound-cars-with-big-rims.html

[Got Insulin?]

If I was a non-car-guy and I saw a car with that much camber, I'd assume that it had been hit hard and that something(s) was broken; I'm also assuming that is why the car was probably impounded as unsafe to drive. 7* is a TON of camber for any vehicle. I think a picture from the side of the car may be more telling.

As with any modification to a car, do it at your own risk. Tints, auxiliary lighting, non-CARB compliant exhausts- all of these things put us on the radar; things like 7* of camber on a street car and a wood plank roof rack are only going to make the blip bigger. I'd say its a hard lesson learned, but I'd also suggest that this is a good time to just pay the fine to get the car out of impound, get the car properly aligned with reasonable settings, and continue on his way.


I've found:
Title75 SS-4704 (3)probable cause (ii) Any police officer having probable cause to believe that a vehicle or its equipment is unsafe, not equipped as required or otherwise not in compliance with the law or regulations may inspect the vehicle or its equipment.

Chapter § 175.65. Tires and wheels.

(a) Condition of tires and wheels. Tires and wheels shall be in safe operating condition as described in § 175.80 (relating to inspection procedure).

Also (b) Tire standards. A vehicle specified under this subchapter shall have tires manufactured in conformance with standards in Chapter 159 (relating to new pneumatic tires). See 75 Pa.C.S. § 4525 (relating to tire equipment and traction surfaces). Tires with equivalent metric size designations may be used. Meaning that the tire must be made to fit the wheel, you cannot put a tire on a wheel that it was not designed for


Chapter 175.80 (e) beneath the vehicle (vii) There are other conditions or markings reasonably believed to render the tire unsafe for highway use.

AND (ix) A tire’s tread extends beyond the outer edge of the wheel housing inclusive of fender flares.

Why the sticker was removed:
SS-4703
(f) Authority of police.--Any police officer may stop any motor vehicle, mass transit vehicle or trailer and require the owner or operator to display an official certificate of inspection for the vehicle being operated. A police officer may summarily remove an unauthorized, expired or unlawfully issued certificate of inspection from any vehicle or mass transit vehicle. For the purposes of administering the requirements of regulations promulgated by the department, a qualified Commonwealth employee or an authorized department representative may remove an unauthorized, expired or unlawfully issued certificate of

Also, I would be interested to know what section the officer charged him with.

Long story short. The police are just trying to make the roads safer for other drivers. and if he is just trying to pick on "sportscars" or w/e, then don't make yourself a target. Its just like if you don't want a speeding ticket, then don't speed.

Also an excellent and informative post. Thanks for that.

[CleanNeon98]

It's exactly what I thought it would look like.

I wouldn't want my kid driving that car, let alone be mad at a cop who possibly saved your son's life by getting that off the road.

[Vr-4-Life]

I'm pretty sure this OP is just a troll with too much time on their hands.

[CleanNeon98]

I'm pretty sure this OP is just a troll with too much time on their hands.
It's like that Toyota radio ad when the kid pretends to be the dad lol

[SovXietday]

3* of camber is a lot, 7 is just insane.

Have any of these kids ever taken into account that the wheel bearings are meant to be loaded almost entirely radially, with some thrust loading for cornering forces? Look at the design of the bearings.

http://investors.skf.com/Q22011en/images/bearings.jpg

There is a very marginal ability to account for serious thrust loading.

Let me make this mean something with numbers. On a normal, straight line driving condition on a nice smooth road the wheel bearings are subject to the weight of the car. Say the car weighs 3000lbs. Each wheel bearing takes in a 1/4 of that load, but importantly all of the load is radial (as in from the center point out toward the bearings) Makes sense right, the bearings are there for that reason. Cornering and hitting bumps will add some camber to the wheels as they travel through the suspension (let's say maximum of 1.5*) which means that the bearings are seeing an 80lb thrust load. That's ok, they're designed for that.

Here's some help with the loading.

http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/bearing-wheel.jpg
*Note that the taper on the bearing is what accounts for thrust loading

So now you camber the balls out of your car, 7* (what the ****?). No big deal right? Uh yeah, big deal. Now driving down that same road the car is holding a thrust load of over 365lbs. That's nearly 5x (FIVE!) the thrust load that the bearing was originally designed for, and the car has yet to go through a turn or hit a bump. Even worse, you think that the radial load would be 365lbs less, but that's not what happens. In fact, radially speaking, the load is still 2900lbs.

Most things engineered have a pretty significant safety factor, generally around 2-3x. Maximum safety limit is around 3* or so, any more than that bad things start happening.

At 7* of camber, you're looking at acute (read: sudden) bearing failure. Hit a pothole, especially while cornering, boom. Now you're left with a wobbly ass wheel that stays connected to the car via the axle nut.

Summary.

Lots of camber is just stupid, cop has every right to impound that **** till it's fixed.

[Bates]

3* of camber is a lot, 7 is just insane.

Have any of these kids ever taken into account that the wheel bearings are meant to be loaded almost entirely radially, with some thrust loading for cornering forces? Look at the design of the bearings.

http://investors.skf.com/Q22011en/images/bearings.jpg

There is a very marginal ability to account for serious thrust loading.

Let me make this mean something with numbers. On a normal, straight line driving condition on a nice smooth road the wheel bearings are subject to the weight of the car. Say the car weighs 3000lbs. Each wheel bearing takes in a 1/4 of that load, but importantly all of the load is radial (as in from the center point out toward the bearings) Makes sense right, the bearings are there for that reason. Cornering and hitting bumps will add some camber to the wheels as they travel through the suspension (let's say maximum of 1.5*) which means that the bearings are seeing an 80lb thrust load. That's ok, they're designed for that.

Here's some help with the loading.

http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/bearing-wheel.jpg
*Note that the taper on the bearing is what accounts for thrust loading

So now you camber the balls out of your car, 7* (what the ****?). No big deal right? Uh yeah, big deal. Now driving down that same road the car is holding a thrust load of over 365lbs. That's nearly 5x (FIVE!) the thrust load that the bearing was originally designed for, and the car has yet to go through a turn or hit a bump. Even worse, you think that the radial load would be 365lbs less, but that's not what happens. In fact, radially speaking, the load is still 2900lbs.

Most things engineered have a pretty significant safety factor, generally around 2-3x. Maximum safety limit is around 3* or so, any more than that bad things start happening.

At 7* of camber, you're looking at acute (read: sudden) bearing failure. Hit a pothole, especially while cornering, boom. Now you're left with a wobbly ass wheel that stays connected to the car via the axle nut.

Summary.

Lots of camber is just stupid, cop has every right to impound that **** till it's fixed.

This post had it all! Some math, science, facts, and pictures. Not too mention a stretched out BURN throughout the entire post.

I think moral of this post and all the rest of the posts are, you can fight this, but you'll most likely lose. Pay the fines, fix the car, and be done with it. If it happens once, chances are it will happen again.

[camopaint0707]

I'm sure there tons of videos of wheels falling off from camber.

[Bates]

OP, can you upload a pic of the car from the side? Also, what kind of wheels is the car sitting on? I'd be worried if they are a knock off brand like Rotas or XXRs, or a brand that are known to have a lot of casting flaws.

[yellow2000S/R]

OP, can you upload a pic of the car from the side? Also, what kind of wheels is the car sitting on? I'd be worried if they are a knock off brand like Rotas or XXRs, or a brand that are known to have a lot of casting flaws.

Rear shot looks like gold XXR 522 because of how they have the ugly spoke-poke.

[01 Trans-Am WS6]

1.) That car looks retarded & the camber has GOT TO GO.
2.) It is dangerous & unsafe for everybody else on the road, your son included. I know you want to be a cool dad & enjoy your sons hobby with him, but you are still his father & safety is your #1 priority.

Why not introduce him to some other types of car modding?? Maybe get him into "real" cars...not this cheap car, ricing camber **** show. Go into the "Slammed cars thread" on here and show him the photos of properly lowered, spec'd out cars. No tilted tire BS.

[rocknrace03]

3* of camber is a lot, 7 is just insane.

Have any of these kids ever taken into account that the wheel bearings are meant to be loaded almost entirely radially, with some thrust loading for cornering forces? Look at the design of the bearings.

........

Summary.

Lots of camber is just stupid, cop has every right to impound that **** till it's fixed.

you just got engineered

but yes 7* is insane. did you know that NASCAR Sprint Cup cars only ~5-6* of camber... on a track with 18* of banking.... with tires that were specifically designed to handle these conditions...? And even then they still fail under excessive camber.... Your 165-45-15 wasn't, do yourself, your son, and everyone who drives a favor and dial it back to a USABLE angle, its NOT safe.

[Vr-4-Life]

And they're on a concaved oval track... Not varying roads...

Moreover, their bearings only have to last a race.

[rocknrace03]

And they're on a concaved oval track... Not varying roads...

Moreover, their bearings only have to last a race.

that too, not to mention the thousands of dollars in safety equipment and collapsable walls. Im awaiting the day when this "style" leaves the car world

[Vr-4-Life]

For now, do what I do... pull in front of them and hit your window washers.

[TheAlchemist]

I'm all for people modding their car to their own personal taste and preference, but when it makes the car less safe, then I don't get it and can't support it.

Excessive camber is just such a mod, just like stretching tires, but so is removing abs, traction control air bags, power disc brakes in favor of a lighter weight manual brake setup, which I know a lot of race/street car guys do.

There's a big difference between getting pulled over for loud exhaust vs. making your car unsafe to you and others on the road.