turbo with no intercooler or bov

[renn]

okay, so i have a good understanding of how turbos and intercoolers work, but here's my question:

at low psi - let's say no higher than 6 psi - is an intercooler or blow off valve really necessary?

i am piecing together a turbo kit for my b16, looking for around 200-220 whp. this seems relatively attainable with a t28 or t3 super 60 turbo at 6psi. boost will be properly controlled with a tial wastegate, and the car will be properly tuned.

would i really gain that much from having an intercooler, and would a blow off valve really be necessary? i'm thinking the IAT's wouldn't be that high at 6 psi, and the pressure wouldn't be enough to kill the turbo especially if it's a ball bearing t28.

i have no desire to boost any more than 6 psi, i just want a little more midrange torque. if there's no great necessity to have an intercooler or bov at 6 psi, i'd rather not spend the time and effort.

[PunkboySL2]

Well the reason you put and intercooler and BOV on the car are to protect the engine and turbo. You'll definitely be seeing higher AITs even at only 6psi so even something small will help keep your engine running better longer and the BOV will keep you from getting compressor surge. Idk how bad it would be at that low of boost, but I really haven't seen many people run without one unless they've got a real big turbo which won't get hurt as easily from that. I think it's just a little bit of security to keep your car running well for not that much more money. My .02

[OutToWinPAHC]

There have been factory cars that have done this, but not too wise. And a 6 psi 60trim is overkill, a BOV prevents surge so it's for turbo longevity. The intercooler helps keep IAT down, but tbh turbo cars still run warm. It's up to you but I would not do what your thinking.

[renn]

i know it's added protection, but i'm curious if it's even necessary at that psi. i would be expecting to lose power without an intercooler, but i'm not sure if the IATs would be hot enough to actually cause detonation/damage the motor.

as far as not using a blow off valve, there's not really a lot of actual information out there. used t28's aren't that expensive, the worst that could happen is i'd have to buy a new turbo and then a blow off valve. i really don't think 6 psi would snap compressor blades or something like that.


http://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo-rx-7s-23/8-months-counting-no-blowoff-valve-884695/
^interesting reading about not using a blow off valve

[renn]

There have been factory cars that have done this, but not too wise. And a 6 psi 60trim is overkill, a BOV prevents surge so it's for turbo longevity. The intercooler helps keep IAT down, but tbh turbo cars still run warm. It's up to you but I would not do what your thinking.

a t3 super 60 and the t3/t4 60 trim i think you're talking about about are completely different turbos. super 60 is much smaller.

[OutToWinPAHC]

have you ever touched the cold side of a turbo after it's been running a while, it's still pretty damn warm. I'ts all about molecule to molecule transfer of heat. Your IAT will go up for sure. what kinda of car is this, can you tune it because timing will need to be adjusted, how are we controlling the fuel trims and boost comps?

[renn]

it is a b16, will be tuned on hondata s300...

i know the IATs will go up, but will they go up enough that i can't tune it safely is my question.

[deb38]

it is a b16, will be tuned on hondata s300...

i know the IATs will go up, but will they go up enough that i can't tune it safely is my question.

They won't go up as much if you tune on E85.

[renn]

i would like to, but finding e85 is hard around here.

meth isn't an option either.

[VETTE_50_TH]

16g. Perfect turbo

[renn]

probably gonna go with a t3 super 60, it's so much easier to find manifolds that are t3 flanged. dsm flanged manifolds are pretty nonexistent, unless i find an adapter.

[Spacepope]

They won't go up as much if you tune on E85.

Air temps won't change at all regardless of fuel used, however cylinder temps and knock threshold will be much lower on E85.

At 6psi, the charge temps will be roughly 100F above ambient. I've seen temps higher than that running a DSM on a stock SMIC, so you should be ok, but the tuning will need to be much more conservative than with a proper intercooler unless you have the proper fuel to suppress knock. You could always run a meth/water injection kit, too.

[renn]

i ran meth injection on my STi and always had trouble with the lines and nozzles clogging and never getting the right flow. never really liked the system. it was an aquamist HFS-5. for the price and effort of adding and tuning a meth setup i would be better off just running an intercooler anyway.

i may go through with this out of curiosity though, some smart people on hondatech seem to think that i should be ok as well. if the IATs are too high and i'm getting bad compressor surge while i'm getting tuned i'll just abort and rebuild the car with an intercooler and blow off valve.

[jpalamar]

You couldn't pay me to build a turbo car without an IC or blowoff valve(I'd do recirculating because I find the pshhh annoying).

[renn]

if i wanted to run higher boost i would definitely run an intercooler and probably a blow off valve.

the old greddy kits were designed to be run with no intercooler or blow off valve, on less advanced engine management.

[Bates]

You should be fine with a super 60 on low boost. The 84-(early) 87 300ZX turbo came with T3 Garret (think it was pretty much a super 60) on 6-7 PSI stock, with no IC, but it did come with a horrid pop off valve, that usually did more harm then good. It is common to just take it out on the Z31. Now I don't know much about Honda Engines, but I would think if you kept the PSI low enough and didn't run the car too long on hot days in the summer, you should be okay. Your tune and timing need to be spot on though.

[CleanNeon98]

With how cheap BOVs and Intercoolers are now, there's really no reason not to run both.

[renn]

yeah but i'd rather not put ebay garbage on my car.

however, i'm probably going to use a DSM side mount intercooler and BOV. i'm just worried about temps during the summer...

[dangerousatom]

Air temps won't change at all regardless of fuel used, however cylinder temps and knock threshold will be much lower on E85.

At 6psi, the charge temps will be roughly 100F above ambient. I've seen temps higher than that running a DSM on a stock SMIC, so you should be ok, but the tuning will need to be much more conservative than with a proper intercooler unless you have the proper fuel to suppress knock. You could always run a meth/water injection kit, too.

Air Temps will be up well above 100 over ambient. I hit near 400 directly out of my 16g's cold side at full throttle, and with a Process West TMIC my temp at the TB only go up 25-40 degrees at full boost and drop right back down after Im off the throttle. Its not as much the boost pressure your pushing but for how long your in boost that make the temps really climb.

Like what CleanNeon98 said for the money of $200-300 you can have a fair sized inter cooler and BOV.

I actually have a HONDA size inter cooler for sale if your interested. You can have it for like $100, I had bought it for the Legacy SS I was building a few years ago.

http://www.cxracing.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/IC0050-b.jpg

[Bates]

I have a black Mishimoto IC with some custom piping, clamps, and couplers for sale as well. I'll give you a good deal on it. If you are interested PM me. Hell I even have a Tial 50mm BOV for sale.

[2g Talon]

okay, so i have a good understanding of how turbos and intercoolers work, but here's my question:

at low psi - let's say no higher than 6 psi - is an intercooler or blow off valve really necessary?

i am piecing together a turbo kit for my b16, looking for around 200-220 whp. this seems relatively attainable with a t28 or t3 super 60 turbo at 6psi. boost will be properly controlled with a tial wastegate, and the car will be properly tuned.

would i really gain that much from having an intercooler, and would a blow off valve really be necessary? i'm thinking the IAT's wouldn't be that high at 6 psi, and the pressure wouldn't be enough to kill the turbo especially if it's a ball bearing t28.

i have no desire to boost any more than 6 psi, i just want a little more midrange torque. if there's no great necessity to have an intercooler or bov at 6 psi, i'd rather not spend the time and effort.


Even at 6 psi a nice small side mount ( supra turbo sidemounts are popular, but a DSM sidemount would work too ) is essential if you want your engine to last more than a week, not to mention side mounts are the tantamount for surprise @ss-whoppings, no one ever sees them lol. Torque can be added by lessening spool times (getting a smaller compressor cover, or adding some hard piping (if you have rubberized piping from a stock UICP system).. Hope that helped a little.

[renn]

i'm actually going to buy a DSM side mount and BOV.

the whole kit should end up costing me around $1000 including injectors.

[dangerousatom]

i'm actually going to buy a DSM side mount and BOV.

the whole kit should end up costing me around $1000 including injectors.

WoW that seems pricey!

PM Techboy:

He is a TsT member, and a good friend of mine. I know he has like 2 mint DSM side mount setups, and would love to sell intercoolers.
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[Bates]

i'm actually going to buy a DSM side mount and BOV.

the whole kit should end up costing me around $1000 including injectors.

That does seem a little expensive. I can do much much better price wise on my Mishimoto IC, Tial BOV, and if you need injectors, I have a set of DSM 450ccs too lol. It's all stuff I can't use on my Juke so it's just collecting dust.

[renn]

i mean including the manifold, wastegate and turbo as well haha.

i'm going to run a garrett t3 super 60... that alone will be around $600 new. everything else is used.

[Bates]

i mean including the manifold, wastegate and turbo as well haha.

i'm going to run a garrett t3 super 60... that alone will be around $600 new. everything else is used.

Ahhhh. Damn lol. Thought I had a sale. I even have a custom garret T3/T4 for sale too. Only thing I don't have is the manifold. Sucks even with the turbo I would have been able to cut you an awesome deal, because again it's something I can't use on the Juke. If you change your mind and want a package deal on the injectors, turbo, IC (includes everything) and BOV let me know... Too bad I don't have any turbo manifolds for a Honda laying around haha.

[Spacepope]

Air Temps will be up well above 100 over ambient. I hit near 400 directly out of my 16g's cold side at full throttle

You're not hitting 400F at 6psi, nowhere close. It's simple math, at 6psi a typical turbo in it's efficient operating area of the compressor map will be no more than 100F over ambient. As I stated, my DSM saw temps higher than that WITH a stock SMIC, my pre-IC charge temps were well over 400F at around 23psi on a 14b. Post-IC temps were around 220F if I recall correctly. Plug in the numbers and see for yourself:

http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml

[SHOdude]

You couldn't pay me to build a turbo car without an IC or blowoff valve(I'd do recirculating because I find the pshhh annoying).

That is a bold face lie, everyone loves that sound.

[jpalamar]

That is a bold face lie, everyone loves that sound.

Opinion is not fact. It cannot be a lie.

[Bates]

Opinion is not fact. It cannot be a lie.

I have found that running a recirculated BOV on my Juke is actually nicer then a vent to atmosphere BOV, not too mention Nissans tend to be touchy when you don't recirculate. Again it is all opinion and preference.

[2g Talon]

I run recirc as opposed to blow through just for the sound. I hate the stupid loud bovs that some folks use, mine is more subtle and I rather prefer it that way.

Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk 2

[B00MB@]

http://blog.perrinperformance.com/your-sti-doesnt-need-an-intercooler-right/

Here is the blog from Perrin performance when they tried to run a sti with no intercooler. The general idea remains the same for any car with out the bov and intercooler.

[Eion]

My friend runs his turbo Miata without an intercooler and from what it seems like is that he's having overheating problems from the constant hot air running through everything(correct me if I'm wrong).

[2g Talon]

My friend runs his turbo Miata without an intercooler and from what it seems like is that he's having overheating problems from the constant hot air running through everything(correct me if I'm wrong).

That makes sense. The intercoolers primary job is heat exchange. Lowering the intake temp will result in fuel mixing better, also allowing for you to add more boost based on the temp of what is entering the turbo. Without an intercooler of any sort, you're pretty much holding your platform back for no real reason. Keep in mind that the constant heat will wear out your turbo quicker, especially with no way to cool down the charge air.

On a side note, I have a toyota supra side mount for sale :D

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

[SHOdude]

My friend runs his turbo Miata without an intercooler and from what it seems like is that he's having overheating problems from the constant hot air running through everything(correct me if I'm wrong).

Nick let your friend know that an eBay intercooler kit is like 120$ or tell him to sell me everything lol. But I think he has a different issue seeing as a lot of miata guys don't run intercoolers. Unless he drives like a douche and is just in boost 24/7

[Eion]

Nick let your friend know that an eBay intercooler kit is like 120$ or tell him to sell me everything lol. But I think he has a different issue seeing as a lot of miata guys don't run intercoolers. Unless he drives like a douche and is just in boost 24/7

I think that's how we both would be driving our cars. lol