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Old 08-30-2007, 02:53 PM   #1
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Open vs. Semi-Open vs. Closed

Open Deck

USDM 2.0 WRX motor


If you ask me, this was designed as an performance economy motor. Although it has a large water jacket to promote effecient cooling, but lacked strength around the cylinders.


Semi-Closed

USDM 2.5 STi motor


Stronger with great cooling and economical to produce.



Fully Closed

JDM Turbo Legacy EJ22


The strongest motor design, but also more expensive to produce.
Also had cooling issues due to the small water jackets.



The main thing I wanted was the visual of the motor design.
I'll add more to this as I find more information.
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Old 08-30-2007, 02:54 PM   #2
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good stuff!
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i think subwrxkid is thinking cleanneon is copying him. if he was it would be at a shop by now.
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Old 08-30-2007, 02:56 PM   #3
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open deck is not inherently weaker than semi-closed or closed - theres been a bunch of tests on RS25 to prove this (skully's EJ25D with stock STi internals putting down 600whp is proof enough haha)
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Old 08-30-2007, 02:58 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade_ View Post
open deck is not inherently weaker than semi-closed or closed - just talk to skully on rs25
Really? How much is he puttin down?
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Old 08-30-2007, 03:01 PM   #5
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There are exceptions to the "rules". The open deck design might not be infact weak, but the semi and fully closed decks are mechanically stronger. It is doubtful that anyone pushing under 30psi will be able to oval or damage the cylinder walls unless something else fails.

Thomas (skully) was making over 400whp if I recall on an open deck EJ25D block. Mind you, he had a completely forged bottom end.
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Old 08-30-2007, 03:03 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teh DIRT View Post
Thomas (skully) was making over 400whp if I recall on an open deck EJ25D block. Mind you, he had a completely forged bottom end.
I expected the forged internals, but I wasn't aware of that much power from the open deck.
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Old 08-30-2007, 03:05 PM   #7
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Well guys, my friend and i probably hit the highest power on a open deck EJ25D block in history yesterday. We took his WRX to a *somewhat* local dyno place called Dyno4mance. His car consisted of...

-stock WRX head castings
-Crower springs/retainers
-EJ25D block halves
-STI crank *250 new through subaru*
-special rod/main bearings
-eagle rods for WRX
-stock STI pistons

On 20psi of boost we put down 380awhp on the DynoDynamics Dyno.
On 28psi of boost we put down 470awhp.. The dyno reads about 15% less than most standard Dynojets. So, we figured he was around 540awhp in dynojet numbers. Now here is the kicker, his intercooler was the limiting factor in his car making even more power. We measured the pressure comming out of the turbo, and it was 41psi. The pressure going into the engine according to the AEM was 28.2psi. So we had a 12.8psi pressure drop accross the APS 550 frontmount. We will be getting a larger 4.5 inch core for the car soon. Once we do, i will give you updated figures.
It suprised the hell out of me too.
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Old 08-30-2007, 03:06 PM   #8
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Yeah, and I think it was close to 30psi if I recall. Engine blow and wear due to abnormal combustion and bad maintenance. If the engine is running properly, even at 400whp....nothing should go wrong.
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Old 08-31-2007, 08:40 AM   #9
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Cool thread George, I always wondered about that. The STi is semi closed right? what about the WRX 2.5. Is that open like the 2.0 is?
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Old 08-31-2007, 09:31 AM   #10
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Wow I learned something! Thanks for sharing.
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Old 08-31-2007, 11:09 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster View Post
Cool thread George, I always wondered about that. The STi is semi closed right? what about the WRX 2.5. Is that open like the 2.0 is?
I never really put thought into it.
But I've been lookin and can't find anything.
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Old 08-31-2007, 11:34 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Renegade_ View Post
It suprised the hell out of me too.

Yes it is. However we all know that most of all this power that these guys are putting down is do to the tuning factor of the vehicle. Anyone can make good power out of almost anything with good tuning. Notice he said he has AEM EM. Ive never messed with it, but people like using it and from what I hear its a awesome system for mangagement.

Awesome pictures of the blocks. Everyone hears alot about Closed, Semi and Open blocks but dont really understand. Pictures speak a thousand words. The problem with our blocks isnt wether they are open,closed, or semi. The fact is, is that the oiling system isnt that great. At higher RPMs the oil gets pushed into the cylinder (bearing wise) in front of it starving the bearing of oil. There are a few things we can do to help this. We can have the crank cross drilled for better oil flow. We can also upgrade the oil pump. The Legacy JDM oil pump flows up to 20% more. Cosworth also makes an upgraded pump and so does JUN if you want to spend 900 bucks.

Jodie
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Old 08-31-2007, 11:40 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster View Post
Cool thread George, I always wondered about that. The STi is semi closed right? what about the WRX 2.5. Is that open like the 2.0 is?
thats semi-closed I believe. I say that because I haven't had anyone tell me that it is open and it definitely isn't closed. It would make sense if it followed the design of the 257
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Old 08-31-2007, 11:44 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade_ View Post
thats semi-closed I believe. I say that because I haven't had anyone tell me that it is open and it definitely isn't closed. It would make sense if it followed the design of the 257
I've read that the 2.5i blocks are open deck.
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Old 08-31-2007, 11:45 AM   #15
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maybe but there are so many variations of the 2.5 :

N/A SOHC 2.5 L,I,RS
N/A DOHC 2.5 RS
F/I DOHC 2.5 WRX
F/I DOHC 2.5 STi

Im sure im missing some too. because with that kind of knowlage, you could end up picking a great block to build for alot less cash somewhere.
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Old 08-31-2007, 11:49 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xEJ20x View Post
I've read that the 2.5i blocks are open deck.
Yeah, the N/A blocks are some derivation of the EJ251 (phase II) - the only thing different about them is that they are MAF I believe. WRX blocks are different I would think - I'll do a search real fast

*edit* Just searched - EJ255 is semi-closed
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Old 08-31-2007, 11:51 AM   #17
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This is a fun thread. Troll should approve
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Old 08-31-2007, 11:51 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foolio View Post
Yes it is. However we all know that most of all this power that these guys are putting down is do to the tuning factor of the vehicle. Anyone can make good power out of almost anything with good tuning. Notice he said he has AEM EM. Ive never messed with it, but people like using it and from what I hear its a awesome system for mangagement.

Awesome pictures of the blocks. Everyone hears alot about Closed, Semi and Open blocks but dont really understand. Pictures speak a thousand words. The problem with our blocks isnt wether they are open,closed, or semi. The fact is, is that the oiling system isnt that great. At higher RPMs the oil gets pushed into the cylinder (bearing wise) in front of it starving the bearing of oil. There are a few things we can do to help this. We can have the crank cross drilled for better oil flow. We can also upgrade the oil pump. The Legacy JDM oil pump flows up to 20% more. Cosworth also makes an upgraded pump and so does JUN if you want to spend 900 bucks.

Jodie
just to open the discussion a little more i'll play devils advocate, even though i have no proof one way or another...

i've heard that crossdrilling has no definitely proveable benefits and thats its risky business messing with the oil system in the motor. of course others do think this is a solution.

also, the discussion goes that you dont need to increase pressure, you need to increase volume of flow which the 2.2 pump doesnt do. in fact its just a normal pump with a shim in it and a lot of guys i've talked to dont feel like its necessarily beneficial.
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If your ever wearing your shirt and someone asks who Mike BartSUki is. Tell them Im a Youtube Sensation and the Top Underground Drifter coming out of Japan! HAHA How JDM is that!
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Old 08-31-2007, 03:16 PM   #19
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I will agree. Its very hard to say the cross drilling 100% works all the time no one really knows because there are so many different types of racing that people use our cars for. Drag racing, we are only looking at a few seconds of harsh use. But for those few seconds, the bearing are really taking a beating for the few people that running 30psi or more. Although its not very big out here yet, time attack people are having a hard time with our oiling systems. Im not sure why, I guess big power at super high RPMs for a longtime. Rally, Drivers really expect alot out of the cars. Everyone is really pushing the engines to the limit, people are really on the rev limiter or very high RPM again alot because of traction issues, of course. Road Racing, Lets look at the ICY team for a minute. When they were running the STis they didnt have alot of issues all season long and they where stock besides the suspensions. Good Tuning and Traction plays a huge part in why the cars stayed together. Even though they are running at high RPMs they shift before the limiter and such. The Torque curve is much like what you would see on a dyno. That is if they would stay in one gear. With Rally.. Your going from 0 RPM to 8500 back down and up with load on and off for a constant and very long time. So do I think that cross drilling works? To be honest I dont know. But as Troll says, oil volume is the only thing we can hope for on any of our blocks.
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Old 09-03-2007, 11:07 PM   #20
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^ well put
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