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Old 05-26-2006, 12:20 PM   #1
TROLL
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Water/Methanol Injection FAQ + New: Where to buy it locally

Big Thanks to DonkeyPunch on NASIOC for permission to copy his excellent Water/Methanol Injection FAQ!

Read if you are thinking of trying water/methanol injection

What is Water/Methanol Injection?
Water Injection or Water Methanol Injection, is a process by which a mixture or water and Methanol are injected into the fuel/air mixture on the way to the combustion chamber. Water/Methanol Injection provides "Chemical Intercooling" inside the cylinder. By injecting water and methanol in a finely atomized spray, the water is able to evaporate under the high temps of a firing cylinder, and when the water evaporates, it takes heat with it. The methanol also has a cooling and octane boosting effect as it burns.

How does water/methanol injection allow your engine to produce more power?
The production of more power by a water/meth injected engine is not a by-product of the water/meth mixture alone. You must tune for it to get the most out of it. The evaporative effects of the water/meth mixture, plus the octane boost, allows you to run more advanced timing, and boost, thus increasing power. Methanol having the octane boosting effect, you can adjust your AFR's with tuning, and be able to run leaner AFR's than you would with just pump gas alone, with less risk of detonation, and also make more power.

What is Methanol?
Methanol is the simplest alcohol compound, comprised of one carbon atom, one oxygen atom and four hydrogen atoms (CH3OH). It is also referred to as wood alcohol, carbinol and methyl alcohol. It is poisonous, flammable and relatively volatile. It has no taste or color, but it does have a slight scent.

Methanol is used as a fuel and an antifreeze, and to make formaldehyde. It is also added to ethanol to make it unpalatable so that it avoids taxes on drinkable alcohol, as ethanol without a denaturant of some sort is consumable by humans. Methanol was first discovered in 1661, though it had been used without isolation by peoples as far back as the Egyptians in their embalming processes. The name comes from methy, meaning wine, and hyle, meaning trees.

Methanol is used as a fuel source by some, though its use is limited by its volatility. The main area in which one sees methanol being used is in many top-end racing engines. The vehicles in the Indy 500, for example, are all run on methanol. This methanol is usually produced using a fossil fuel as the synthesis gas, either natural gas or petroleum.

Many renewable energy advocates see methanol as an ideal fuel source, with distinct advantages over hydrogen. When methanol is made from materials such as wood, it is often called bioalcohol. The theoretical use of methanol as a widespread fuel source has given rise to a theory describing what is known as the methanol economy.

In the methanol economy, the common fuel is methanol, with non-renewable fuels having a minority share or being entirely unused. George Olah, a winner of the Nobel Prize, is a strong advocate of this path. Advocates point out that in contrast to hydrogen, methanol is relatively cheap to produce, can be manufactured with little or no waste, is efficient to store and can be made from sources other than fossil fuels. Also, while conversion to a hydrogen economy would require major changes in infrastructure, methanol could be phased in relatively easily because of its interoperability with fossil fuels. One can mix methanol with gasoline to produce hybrid fuels while making the shift in economy.

Unfortunately, methanol is very toxic and contains a number of hazards. It is less volatile than hydrogen, but also much heavier, which could allow contamination in the case of spills or tank leaks. A wide range of groups are constantly looking for new and innovative uses for methanol, and it seems apparent that it will have a role in the energy economy of the future. Whether that role is as the key player or a supporter to hydrogen or some other fuel source remains to be seen.

Can you run just water injection without methanol?
Yes, but you will not be able to take advantage of the octane boosting properties of methanol, thus you will get cooling from the water, but no increase in octane. Without methanol, you may not make as much power, as it acts as a detonation inhibitor, and you may not be able to run a leaner AFR as you could with it.

What supporting upgrades are required for water/methanol injection?

At minimum you should have some sort of engine management that can be tuned, I.E. able to adjust timing, boost, and fuel curves, to compensate for the octane boost, and cooling effects, and be able to take advantage of them to make power. Otherwise you can run water/meth injection on a stock car with tunable engine management. You do not have to have after-market intakes, exhausts, intercoolers, or strengthened internals. Although with more supporting mods that already increase the volumetric efficiency of the engine, the more power that can be had.


Who makes Water/Methanol injection systems?

There are many manufactures of water/injection systems:

These are some of the more popular and most inclusive kits for the money
www.aquamist.co.uk
www.snowperformance.net
www.coolingmist.com
www.devilsownonline.com/alcohol
www.enginerunup.com
www.fjoracing.com/products/waterinjection
www.smcenterprises.com/subaru.htm

Who is the best manufacture to go with?
That is up to debate, but when you choose a kit, look at all the components that come with the kit, or if you can buy extra pieces that you may need, or think you need I.E. Level switches, fail safes, extra nozzles, varible controllers.
Also consider what type of reservoir you are going to have to use, or does the kit include one?
Most companies have some sort of reservoir, some make you use the existing windshield wiper tank, or make you supply your own.
Also read other peoples experiences with different kits as far as setup, price, inclusiveness of kit (does it satisfy all your requirements part-wise), power gains, etc.

How do I know how big a nozzle to run?

Here is a great link with a water injection calculator at the bottom to assist in this question...
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

Here is a volume converter also, to cross reference nozzles. Some companies list volumes of their nozzle in metric, some in standard units of measure.
http://www.sciencemadesimple.net/volume.php

Where can I get methanol?
One of the best sources that some probably don't realize is from wal-mart or anywhere that sells basic windshield wiper fluid. Just make sure you don't get the stuff with Glycol in it...this is the same stuff used in engine anti-freeze. It won't work well, or could damage you engine.

Other sources:

http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp_01_f...C855#specialty

This one has a comprihensive list of suppliers all over the USA

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=121500

You can buy on-line from these guys:
LINK
www.pricechemical.com/order/
www.powermist.com/distrib.html
www.worldwideracingfuels.com/catalog_c30755.html

Those are just some.

Are there any water injection forums I can learn more from?

Yes, here are a few:

Aquamist's, probably has the most info and activity
www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/
www.waterinjectionforum.com
www.waterinjection.info
http://snowperformance.net/forum/
www.devilsownonline.com/forum/index.php

How do I know what mixture to inject?
The best rule of thumb is a 50/50 mix of methnol and distilled water. Some use more meth, some use less. But windshield wiper fluid is commonly between 35-42% methanol, which will usually work fine. The best mixture is proportionate to your particular state of tune. A little less methanol could possibly cause detonation. Mixing it yourself maybe the best way to know what is right for you.

Here is a freeze table for methanol also:

http://www.ashchem.com/adc/chemicals...=3&is_header=N

Just be careful with methanol as it is corrosive, toxic, and a carcinogen. Please be careful if you decide to mix your own brew.

Here is a link to a methanol hydrogemeter:

http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/ezrs104.html

Here is a great how to page:

http://www.dawesdevices.com/howto.html

Can you build your own kit, and how?
You need some basics to build your own system.
You need a pump with adequate pressure, most people use some type of diaphram pump, from ShurFlo for example.
You need nozzles
You need tubing
You need a trigger to turn on the system at the right time, some type of pressure switch...Some engine management such as TurboXS UTEC has a spare solenoid that can be setup to run your water injection system.

Many of the things needed for setting up a system can be found at these suppliers

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg...UseBVCookie=no
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products...l.ex?sku=68424
www.mcmaster.com/

And here is a great how to page on building your own...
http://www.projectwrx.com/modules.ph...howpage&pid=34

Can water/meth injection cause damage to my engine?
As with any aftermarket part, yes it can. If you are running water/meth injection, you are risking detonation and catostrophic engine failure shoud you system fail or not run at optimum efficiency. This is due to the fact that when tuned you will be running advanced timing, boost and leaner fuel trims that would normally not be possible without water/meth injection. Loss of the system while under heavy load may not be able to be compensated for in time, and could cause detonation at best case, and engine failure at worst case. Be careful, and make sure you use a failsafe, or a tune that retards timing at the onset of knock, and some sort of level indicatior for the reservior, to ensure you know when the tank is getting empty. Nozzle clog indicators are not a bad idea either. They are especially important if using tap water, or not using a filter in the system, to catch impuritiies. This is why distilled water is best for this application.

Can I run without a external intercooler?
Yes, but your tune has to be setup to compesate for it. Advantages to running without a TMIC or FMIC are better spool of turbo and response, due to less volume to fill up. But again, you must make sure your system is working properly all the time, some have experimented with not using an external intercooler with success.

What gains can be made from water/meth injection?
This all depends on the current setup of your car, type of car, and your tuners ablilty. All your supporting mods such as exhaust, intakes, turbos gains are best realized with some sort of aftermarket tuning. The same it true with water/meth injection. But generally gains of 20-30 Hp and 20-30 ft/lbs of tq are common, making this one of the best bang for the buck power upgrades for your car. Your gains of course depend on supporting mods you already have in place, that will let you take advantage of the tuning to a higher degree.

Other NASIOC threads concerning water/meth injection:
NASIOC Thread: Aquamist Water Injection Q & A
NASIOC Thread: Gruppe-S and their experience with Water Injection
NASIOC Thread: Water Injection Tuning Results
NASIOC Thread: Pre-Turbo Water Injection
NASIOC Thread: Water vs. Alcohol vs. Methanol

Disclaimer:
I can not be held responsible to any damage or mis-forture that may befall you or your engine due to the ideas expressed in this thread. Everything that your try concerning water/methanol injection is done at your own risk.

Thanks, any further questions, or things you think I should edit or add, please PM me. I provide this as a FAQ since many of us have or are looking at going this route, and I wish I had some of this info I provided when I started out. I have collected all this stuff as I have progressed, and now it is in one place.

Big Thanks to DonkeyPunch on NASIOC for permission to copy his excellent Water/Methanol Injection FAQ!
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Last edited by TROLL; 05-26-2006 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 05-26-2006, 12:45 PM   #2
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A second writeup from DaveNow on NASIOC because he covers a few different things...

NOTE* This FAQ is very SMC and Subaru specific, as this is what I know. But it mostly applies to all cars/setups

What does alcohol injection do?
It injects a mist of alcohol directly into the intake stream, this has the effect of massive "chemical intercooling" along with greatly raising the octane level of the air/fuel charge. On 93 octane pump gas, the general concensus is that when the system is spraying, you are at or around 110 octane

So what does that do for my car?
Well higher octane and a MUCH cooler air charge means a MUCH higher detonation threshold. It will take a LOT more to make your car knock

My car isnt knocking now, why do I care?
Because one spot of bad gas can make it happen. And where "stage 2" wrx's last forever, there have been quite a few "stage 2" STIs blow up. You want as little chance to detonate as possible. With alcohol injection, its probably about 100 times less likely to detonate. And if you dont tune super agressively, you can pretty much set the car up to where its almost impossible to cause it to knock in any driving condition, with any weather change

What Benefits are there other than the above?
POWER. You can tune leaner, running up to 12-1 under full boost. I run 11.7-1 at 19lbs and never see det. Your EGTS typically go down up to 200 degrees too. Mine are about 75 deg lower than pre alch. You can also run up to 5 degrees more timing and 2-4 more lbs of boost. Want detonation free 21lbs of daily driving boost on a stock STI turbo? You got it. It will be hard on the turbo, but those are cheap enough
Typically I would say running 2 more psi boost, 20% less fuel under boost and 3-4 more degrees timing would be a "normal" alcohol injection tune.
It also has the effect of "steam cleaning" the engine from the throttle body to the exh ports. No carbon buildup on the backs of your intake valves, and the domes of your pistons stay MUCh cleaner. Which means MUCh less chance of "hot spots" which cause detonation

But that sounds expensive to run Alcohol, in 1 gallon cans is about 7-11 dollars per can.

wow thats nuts, how long does 1 gallon last?
Well the SMC kit uses your washer bottle, thats 1 gallon. Most people get 2 to 3 tanks of gas out of 1 fillup. I average about 2 1/2 tanks of gas for each alcohol fillup.
When you are tuning your car, it will go MUCH faster as you are spraying a lot more often. At a track day, it will REALLY go fast. I havent done a track day with it yet, but I would suggest you plan on AT LEAST 1 tank per session. If you use a 1 gallon tank, it MAY not even last the entire 20 min run session, or it might, you would have to talk to someone that has run it at a trackday. Best bet, if you are going to try it, is have EM that you can switch maps on the fly. That way if it runs low (watch for the light) you can switch to a non alch injection map on the fly. It may not be an issue, I have no honest idea. If you run a bigger tank, you shouldnt have a problem. If you are going to do a lot of track days and want to run this, you should consider buying the 12L Spec C tank and using that as your tank. SMC will install the pump in that for you if you would like

Can I mix the alcohol with anything to stretch my dollar??
YES!! Many, in fact, in the subaru world, most ppl run a 50/50 mix of distilled water and alcohol. The difference in what the alcohol injection does for your car is small. FIgure if straight alch would yeild you a 110octane charge, figure 50/50 would net you 108ish. I am totally talking off the top of my head, but I use those numbers to illustrate how small the difference is.
Also, if you mix, you end up with 2 gallons of mix. Which means for about $13 max, you get 4-6 tanks of gas worth of alc injecting goodness. That drastically lowers the cost to run this

What kind of alcohol?? WHere do I get it?
Home Depot is one of the most common places people get it. The type is "Denatured Alcohol". Rubbing alcohol can be used too! If you are tuned for denatured, and you cant find any for some reason, you can stop at any grocery store, or drug store, and buy rubbing alch, dump it in, fill that bottle with water, and dump that in. I did that just the other day, it worked great

What about Methanol?
Works great. Tune will be SLIGHTLY different than denatured
* Methanol might be harder on the seals in the pump than Denatured, so before running it you should check with SMC (or whoever's kit you choose) to be sure their pump and such will be ok with it. I will email SMC and ask about it and update this as soon as I hear back from them

Doesnt alcohol eat rubber?
Yes a little, but that doesnt matter as this never touches any rubber

Alcohol is flamable, will my car catch on fire??
If its straight alcohol, and you get hit hard enough to puncture the container, yes it could. But at that point, sorry to say but your car is most likely totalled anyway. The fire will just prevent the insurance company from trying to fix it and leaving you stuck with a car that has been in a BAD wreck and was repaired. If you run a 50/50 mix, it will not catch fire as the 50/50 mix does ignite. At least when several of us have tried to ignite it, it just will not light, so if you run 50/50 you are 99.99999999% safe

So is this dangerous for my motor??
Well if you are boosting hard, and it fails, there is a very high chance your motor will blow. However, this is ULTRA rare, in fact I have yet to ever hear of a single case where it has failed. I know it HAS happened, but so far, not in the subaru world, and from what I have heard and read, the cases where it failed, were bad installs. One guy with a VERY early SMC kit had a pump go bad, but his motor was fine

So how does this work??
Ok So, you have a few parts. This is standard with all the kits, some have a couple differences, but here are the basic parts.
Tank
Pump
Controller
Nozzle
Some kits have a single stage or dual stage controller that sprays at either a constant flow rate regardless of boost pressure, or sprays at a higher rate after a given boost pressure.
Yet other kits, such as the SMC kit or the Devils own kit use a progressive controller. This is by far superior. It starts spraying at a predetermined boost pressure, that YOU can set and ramps up to maximum spray at another, higher predetermined boost pressure that YOU set. The SMC kit, and I THINK the devils own kit come set to kick on at 7PSI, and max out by 15 PSI. This doesnt mean it doesnt spray past 15PSI< it means it is a constant rate past 15 PSI. And you could make it 20PSi if you wanted to, you arent limited to 15PSI, thats just the default.
Some people set it to only kick on at say 15 PSI or so, which saves a TON of juice, but you lose all the benefits of lower boost spray. 7PSI is great because then it will JUSt kick on when you are at part throttle boost.

More details please!
(the info here is based on a progressive controller) Ok so you are cruising along, you hit the gas, you hit 7PSI and the spray control unit kicks on. It turns on a high pressure pump that sends the mix down a hose to the nozzle which is typically located 2-3 inches in front of your throttle body. TMIC people usually drill a hole in the bottom front of their tmic and put the nozzle there. FMIC guys typically put it in the pipe, again, 2-3 inches in front of the throttle body.
As boost increases, the pressure from the pump increases, which causes more to be sprayed into the intake stream, up to the max point (default is about 15PSI)
IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A KIT WITH A PROGRESSIVE CONTROLLER> It will begin spraying at a constant rate at whatever boost pressure it is set to, many times this is not adjustable and is determined by what pressure switch it uses. This kind of kit still works, but it isnt nearly as nice and not nearly as tunable as one with a progressive kit. I would recommend staying away from these, and at least getting a kit with 2 stages. However if you are just going to have it spray at or about your max boost, this kit should be fine. However be aware that there is a good possibility of a "hesitation" like feeling at the point that it kicks in, no matter how much you tune.

I live where they only have 91 octane, will this help me out??
In those cases, you are helped out EVEN MORE than the 93 octane people. You will have a lower overall effective octane, but it will still be well above the equivalent of 100 octane. Your power and detonation resistance gains will be more dramatic than the people who can get 93.

So this is like running race gas?
Yes and no. Its better than 100 octane(and MUCH cheaper) but its no C16 (which is 116 octane) Its a heck of a lot more economical, because lets face it, you dont need high octane when you are cruising around off boost, or even at 1-4 PSI boost. Heck I drove my WRX around on 89 octane and wastegate boost with no issues for awhile just to test that theory. Think of this as race gas when you NEED it, and cheap pump gas when you dont.

Do I need engine management to run this?
Yes, 100% absolutely you HAVE TO have, at a minimum, some way of tuning fuel. Because when this sprays you will go INSANELY rich, like 7-1 rich. That is rich enough to be dangerous and can cause bore wash (this is where there is so much fluid in the cyl that it rinses the oil off the cyl walls, and the rings tear themselves and the cyl wall up.)

I dont want a ton of power, I just want the safest car possible
Then leave it stock. There are no absolutes and ANYTHING you do to the motor increases the chances of it blowing up.
HOWEVER, you can make your car a LOT safer than it would have been. If you are considering this as a precautionary mod only, you can leave the timing and boost alone, and only tune to a "normal" a/f ratio as if it didnt have alch injection. Note than a "normal" non alch a/f is richer than what is considered a "normal" alch injection a/f, at least a little(in most cases).

I want m@d p0w3r y0!
Great! Some have been able to go as agressive as: 3 more PSI, 5 more degrees timing, and 12.5-1 a/f without detonation and safe EGTS!!!!!!!! That is not the common setup though. Most knowledgeable people will recommend something around this : 2-3 more PSI boost, 3-4 more degrees timing, depending what your car will take without det, and a/f's around 11.7-1. On a "stage 2" (Em and turboback) STI, gains are typically around 20-25whp and 25+ft/lbs of torque. Combine 20whp, 25ft/lbs of tq and a safer running car, and you can start to see why this is such a great mod.

I have never heard of this, I am suspect of something this new
Its not new at all. The turbo buick guys have been running this for probably 15+ years. Other racing cars have run this going back past the 60's. Rest assured, this isnt something "new"

The SMC kit is nice, but I want something more "stealth" that you cant see easily under the hood
Then something like the Cooling Mist or Devil's Own, or some of the other "build it yourself" kits would be your ticket. These kits are just as complete, but are more labor intensive. Once installed and adjusted, they do the same thing. Of these types, the "Aquamist" is probably the best, but its VERY expensive and you dont really get a lot more functionality for the money IMHO. However Aquamist has a VERY good name for a reason. VERY high quality parts. Does this mean that the $300-500 kits are worse quality? Not typically.

I have an STI with Em and a turboback and I am maxing my injectors duty cycle at 100%, will this help me?
Absolutely. At 19PSI I am only seeing a max injector duty cycle in the mid 70%'s with my alch injection.

I want to go for some kind of stock turbo record, will this allow me to "safely" run really high boost??
You could run 23PSI easily, if not 25PSI, on pump gas, with alch injection. I have a buddy running 23PSI on his TD04 on his WRX with alch injection. He just trapped 105.5mph with that setup. Pump gas, 2.0l WRX, TD04, alch injection.

I am not very mechanically proficient, which kit is easiest to install?
SMC by far. It typically takes about 1 hour to unpack, install and get up and running. Why? Because of how it is setup. The kit comes with a washer bottle with the pump assembly already installed. Yes, you get a replacement, smaller washer fluid bottle so you retain your ability to wash your windshield.

How much are these kits?
$249 to $1000+ The SMC is 499, the Devil's Own is like 349, the coolingmist has an option for 249 I believe, and the top of the line Aquamist is over a grand IIRC.

My methanol setup looks like it is set to come on at like 5psi and end at 15psi. Do you know why this may be happening?
The default is 7ish to 15ish. This means it maxes flow at 15PSI, not that it stops spraying. Once it is spraying at full volume it is flowing a good bit. 15PSI is a lot of pressure, even if your max boost is 28PSI, so you want it to get to full spray by then. You dont really want it at full spray lower than that because it doesnt NEED that much of a boost in octane lower than that. Past 15PSi you want as much of a boost in octane/cooling as it can give. Which is why peak spray is set at 15PSI.
If you set it higher, you essentially take the ramp up rate, and make it longer/slower. If 7 and 15 means a 45 degree angle, 7 and 30 PSI would be like a 30 degree angle. Get what I am saying?

My car didnt come with a turbo but I added one (like a turbo'd honda/acura) I wonder if this could help me?
Absolutely! Cars that didnt come with forced induction have higher compression motors than cars that came with a turbo/supercharger. Higher compression brings in a higher chance of detonation. And since a cooler air charge, and higher octane means more resistance to detonation, you would surely benefit from alcohol injection, possibly more than cars that came with a turbo from the factory.
Think of it this way.
How much boost can a civic/whatever with a turbo handle with NO intercooler? How much more power can you make WITH a nice FMIC on that same car? Alcohol is essentially chemical intercooling. I would obviously still recommend an intercooler obviously, but this at least illustrates the point.
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Old 05-26-2006, 12:56 PM   #3
TROLL
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This is a great link:
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

And here are some interesting facts you probably didnt already know regarding Water/Alcohol Injection...
1. Maximum Torque occurs at a 13.2:1 Air Fuel Ratio.
2. Transitional Fueling and Maximum Boost Air Fuel Ratios are about 12.5:1.
3. Water Injection is most efficient with a 50/50 water alcohol mixture.
4. Methanol, as an additive, is not a practical choice as it is prone to pre-ignition, is not safe to handle and is not readily available.
5. Denatured (ethanol) alcohol, typically 95%, is cheap and is available in paint, hardware, and Home Depot type stores in gallon containers for about $10.00. Isopropyl alcohol can be used but it is often 30% or more water by content.
6. Water Injection allows ignition timing to be more aggressive or closer to stock. In other words boost does not automatically mean retard your timing.
7. Excessive amounts of ignition retard will cause a loss of power and overheating.
8. Water to Fuel ratios should be based on weight and not volume.
9 . Water weighs 8.33 lb per gallon.
10. Alcohol weighs 6.63 lb per gallon.
11. Air weighs .080645 lb per cubic foot. It takes about 150 cubic feet of air per 100 horsepower. It takes about 12 lb of air per 100 horsepower.
12. Water or Water / Alcohol to Fuel Ratios are between 12.5% to 25%. This means Air to Fluid Ratios are between 11.1:1 and 10.0:1 with water injection.
13. Maximum water delivery should be in higher load low to mid rpm ranges tapering somewhat at peak rpms where load is less.
14. Atomization of the water mixture is directly related to it effectiveness. Finer droplets cool the inlet charge better and with less mass they navigate the inlet plenum easier for more equal water distribution.
15. Don’t flow water through an intercooler.
16. Atomized water, just like fuel , does not like to make turns thus making accurate distribution something to think about. This is why port fuel injection is the norm. Water is a fluid just like your fuel. Multiple nozzes, equally spaced in the plenum, although it complicates things, is a superior design.
17. The introduction of water will allow higher boost pressures to be run without detonation. Higher pressures will increase torque. It’s always about torque.
18. Racing high octane gasoline should be used for all forms of competition and for higher than normal boost levels. Water injection as well as charge cooling should be used with racing gas. 91/92 Octane pump gas simply will not cut it.
19. Fuel Injectors operate in the 1 Millisecond range and are not capable of long term usage for H20 as they will corrode or rust shut in a very short period of time. Unless a solenoid can open as fast as a fuel injector it should not be used to "pulse" water injection events.
20. Varying voltage to water injection pumps or using similar schemes is a recipe for disaster. You have to eliminate the variables, not increase them.
21. Fuel Injection pumps cannot be used for water injection. Water is conductive. Gasoline is not. Water will corrode an efi pump shut in a very short period of time.
22. Water injection has a cooling effect on the engine head, valves, and cylinder. Exhaust temperatures (EGT) are largely unaffected at recommended water / fuel ratios.
23. The cooling of potential hot spots in the combustion chamber defeats pre-ignition, the most destructive form of uncontrolled or unplanned combustion.
24. Higher static compression ratios will require a higher percentage of water or water / alcohol.
25. No, water does not burn. We are not combusting the hydrogen in the H2O.
26. At around 13.2:1 or fuel air ratios of .75, EGT’s will peak.
27. Ferrari suspended water in their fuel during their 1980’s Formula1 period. We don’t recommend that you try this...although Acetone will mix with water.
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Old 05-26-2006, 01:05 PM   #4
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funny thing is I just read this for the first time today over on nasioc. Good Post Troll!
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Old 08-08-2006, 02:59 PM   #5
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bumping this because its a great read for anyone who has some time to kill.
trust me you'll be interested in this after learning a bit about it... i'm gonna go find a couple dyno charts showing gains by adding alky to an STi...
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Old 08-08-2006, 03:28 PM   #6
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here is a post i stole from nasioc comparing a Cobb AP Stage 2 Base Map, a Cobb Protuned Stage 2, and a Protuned Stage 2 + Alcohol. VERY impressive...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agile Auto on NASIOC



Mods are:
HKS exhaust
Helix catted DP
APS Cold Air Intake
Prodrive Boost Solinoid
SMC Water Injection Kit
Cobb AccessPort w/ Agile Protune

Boost was set to 21.5 psi and afr was a very safe 11.3 to 1.

-Hill
www.agileauto.com
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Old 08-08-2006, 03:33 PM   #7
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and here is another comparison from agile... not that this is comparing an STi with exhaust and AP Base map to a custom tuned alcohol injection setup, so there are improvements from the alcohol as well as the custom tune here...

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Originally Posted by Coolingmist on NASIOC

Agile Auto is a dealer of ours in Maryland. They specialize in Scoobies and EVOs. They purchased our trunk mount varicool kit and dyno tuned the car today. the baseline (red) shows the car running a cobb stage 2 ecu and turboback exhaust. the yellow plot is a custom tune with the coolingmist kit running 23 psi. I have to say we are getting results like this time and again with the EVO and STI. 91 HP gain is pretty sweet Here are the results:



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Old 08-09-2006, 11:08 AM   #8
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Just read that entire thing, sweet read. Do you know of anyone which has done meth/alky injection into JDM engines? I am guessing they react the same way I just want to know if there are certain steps you need to take in order to accomodate JDM engines. Chances are they are the same, but I just want to know for future reference
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Old 08-09-2006, 11:17 AM   #9
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thats kind of a silly question, but i'll entertain it... how about you answer me this... do JDM engines run on the same air and fuel that USDM engines run on?
so that would dictate that the same tuning theories are the same as well...

with that said, every motor and setup is different so results will definitely vary. at the end of the day, water or alcohol injection should cool cylinder temps and/or raise effective octane, both of which allow for a more aggressive tune, yielding more power while retaining a level of safety for the motor. thats a good thing.
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Old 08-09-2006, 11:20 AM   #10
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Well, the only reason why I am asking it is that JDM engines do initially run on higher octane and the engine I am looking at does have a 5th injector so there is a higher content of fuel going into the engine. Do you need to compensate for the additional fuel in the A/F mixture ?
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Old 08-09-2006, 11:24 AM   #11
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if X motor runs well, regardless of its setup, then water/alky will allow it to run more agressively and still be safe. its like adding a full exhaust to any car will help performance.
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Old 08-10-2006, 02:44 AM   #12
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Yup ran 50/50 mix on my evo, make sure you monitor pressure/levels and have safty built in. Was going to go full methenol but things changed. Renegade -yes you must have it tuned for AF, you can run a tad leaner with alcohol/water. I switched to strait alky before my pump gave out. You need to think of it as a separate fuel system. Works well if set up safely.Mine was set up to spray at 14psi (WOT) full spray til 23psi. Never go a chance to have it dynoed with the alky any higher. Be carefull with it especially if you lean out your fuel (EMS) ect. One clogged nozzle and boom.
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Old 02-18-2008, 06:32 PM   #13
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Compiling a list of 'local' places to buy methanol and what to know when buying... if you have anything to add please post it and I will edit this.

Methanol Brands

VP Racing Fuels
Newark, DE
www.vpracingfuels.com
(302) 368-1500
Contact them to find distributers, I do not know if you can purchase directly from them.

Sunoco Race Fuels
Distributors List (more locations than listed below):http://www.sunocoinc.com/site/Consum...istributorMap/

Power Mist Methanol
67 Stickles Pond Road
Newton, NJ
http://www.powermist.com/methanols.html
Distributors List (more locations than listed below): http://www.powermist.com/distrib.html


Places to Buy:
(These are places I personally confirmed. For many more listings, check the distributor links listed above)

United Discount Auto Stores
475 E. County Line Rd.
Hatboro, PA
(215) 672-2151
VP Racing Methanol
5 Gallon Container - $44 ($39.50 if you bring your own 5 gallon container)


L&M Engines
246 E. County Line Rd.
Hatboro, PA 19040
(215) 675-8485
http://www.lmengines.com/
Torco Methanol
55 Gallon Sealed Drums Only - $225


Insinger Performance
Dushore, PA
(570) 924-4323
http://www.insingerfuels.com/
Generic but pure quality 99.5% methanol
5 Gallons - $21, must provide your own container

Dave Stricker – Reading Distributor for Insinger Performance
Reading, PA (and surrounding area for deliveries)
(717) 587-1693


S & S Tire and Auto
920 East Bristol Rd.
Feasterville Trevose, PA
(215) 364-8752
Sunoco Racing Methanol (from Kelly Racing Fuels)
5 gallons - ~$25, must provide your own container
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Old 02-18-2008, 06:52 PM   #14
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Hydrometers

When sealed, methanol has a shelf life of ~2 years. Once the container is opened it will not last nearly as long because it will absorb water and no longer be pure methanol. If you are buying methanol from a much larger drum, there is no way to know the quality of what you are buying without a hydrometer to test it with. Even if you buy a sealed drum, once it is opened the quality will degrade over time as it absorbs water.
You can buy a hydrometer to test what you're using to ensure that your injection is consistent over time.

Here is a $40 hydrometer setup made for testing methanol. I honestly dont know the difference between this and some of the much more expensive options: http://www.motorsportsracingfuels.ne...D=168&sent=yes

Here is a $48 hydrometer setup which sounds like it requires a 250mL hydrometer cylinder: http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/~hideseng/prod05.htm

Full kit is also listed here for $279: http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/~hideseng/prod03.htm

VP also has a kit listed here for $235: http://www.vpracingfuels.com/hydrometer.html
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Old 02-18-2008, 11:54 PM   #15
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93
I'll note that moisture contaminated methanol takes on a yellowish tinge from all the air particulates and junk. This is why it is incorrect to think that it's okay to run slightly diluted meth if you're going to add pure water anyway.

May I also note to the prospective auxillary injection user that it is imperative to make sure the pump is primed and working completely up to par before you make changes to the engine that necessitate it. Common sense, yes, but keep in mind that this is something that can claim your engine if it poops out. The quality control of Shurflo pumps, the most common pump available, is subpar. Thankfully, as in my case, it did'nt really work too well from the get go instead of failing down the road when it would be relied upon. Make sure all wires are secure and have no chance of getting entangled in moving parts or burning on hot parts. Check things over frequently.
Feel free to remove if this post does'nt meet the criteria of a sticky thread.
Edit in response to post below-No, I do not have any experience with hydrometers, but I would strongly advise the use of one as opposed to simply going by looks.
93 93/93

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Old 02-19-2008, 06:33 AM   #16
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your input is always valuable so thanks for adding in. i'm researching online but you've got personal experience which is always welcome.
do you happen to have any experience with hydrometers to know whats needed to properly test methanol? not necessary if you're purchasing sealed drums but just wanted to get the information online in case it can be helpful to anyone.
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Old 02-22-2008, 01:32 PM   #17
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I've used the info here quite a few times in the past week getting my setup ready. Yay for tech stickes, we need more of them (in case anyone is interested in helping put more stuff like this together).

Oh and fyi... like mentioned above a 50/50 mix of water/meth should be mixed based on weight, not volume. This means if you're looking to make 1 gallon of mix, you need .44 gallons water and .56 gallons meth (1.67 L water and 2.12 L methanol).
More important than your ratio, however, is keeping your mix consistent unless you're retuning...
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Old 02-22-2008, 01:46 PM   #18
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going through all the testing of the meth imo is a little much lol. The meth I get comes straight from a chemical company in a sealed glass container.

While I agree that the mixture should be done by weight, most people arent going to sit there and weigh their mixes each time. mix it by volume, get tuned and continue.. then there is no concern


When you start talking all this "tech" info I feel that it may scare most users from using meth/water mix. A lot of tuners wont tune a meth car to its full max just as they wouldn't with a gas tune, for safety's sake. If you are planning on tuning your car yourself and/or want to squeeze EVERY last drop of power out of your set up, then I can see by going through the above methods for measuring, weighing, etc etc.. But for the common user its a little much
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Old 02-22-2008, 01:57 PM   #19
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Hey, just putting the info out there for those who want to use it. The most important part of what I posted is that the exact mixture doesn't matter as much as being consistent with what you're putting into the car.
I dont plan to test my meth either because I will continue to buy sealed containers, but I found while searching that a lot of places sell meth out of open containers and that adds a lot of variables into the mix. Aside from water absorption, I read on EvoM about a shop that was using the same pump to fill race fuel and meth, and even trace amounts of race fuel contaminated the meth and made it unuseable. If he hadn't tested what he got he wouldn't have known.
I think most people are measuring by volume, I found it interesting that its not correct, and everyone doing that who thinks they're running 50/50 is actually running more like 60/40. But hey, that works too...
I just think its easy enough to measure it out once, mark my mixing container with the level of meth to fill to, then the level to add the water to, then just keep using that container to mix in... just as easy.
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Old 12-26-2008, 12:13 PM   #20
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I have been using Methanol/alky in my Grand National for 3 years. I am using Razor's "alky control" kit. (Very popular among turbo buicks). I can run as much boost as I need using pump gas. I have installed many kits, so if anyone ever needs a hand let me know!
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