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Old 03-26-2007, 12:28 AM   #1
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Great pictures or just good photoshopping

I've been noticing that most of the time when someone posts a picture in here people give advice on how to fix it in photoshop, instead of telling them how to take a better picture. So that leads me to wonder, how many people here know how to take a really nice picture, as opposed to just taking an ok picture and then photoshopping it to make it look right. Not saying there is a lot wrong with the digital fixing way of the world, I'm just more easily impressed by the people willing to take 50 pictures to get one right in the camera before it hits the computer.
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Old 03-26-2007, 12:31 AM   #2
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I've been noticing that most of the time when someone posts a picture in here people give advice on how to fix it in photoshop, instead of telling them how to take a better picture. So that leads me to wonder, how many people here know how to take a really nice picture, as opposed to just taking an ok picture and then photoshopping it to make it look right. Not saying there is a lot wrong with the digital fixing way of the world, I'm just more easily impressed by the people willing to take 50 pictures to get one right in the camera before it hits the computer.
I never post render my pictures when I take them, beacause I dont know how, and I like the way they turn out as is
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Old 03-26-2007, 12:40 AM   #3
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There will probably be another response by the time I hit "Post," but regardless...

Great pictures need both good shooting and developing. When people shoot film, the time spent in the darkroom is just as critical as composing the picture and choosing correct settings. Without good composition and the right setting you won't get a good picture, but even with the best picture you need to chose the right ways to bring it out on film.

So now, instead of using a darkroom with (really cool) papers, chemicals, and light, the dark room is a computer. Rendering images that are surreal is no doubt more frequently and easily done now, but it was also done when digital didn't exist. It's a part of photography.

Photoshop is just a tool. Only now, instead of people having to learn to properly develop and print a nice photograph, one can spend a few grand and call themselves an expert. It's a double-edged sword, I guess.
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Old 03-26-2007, 12:45 AM   #4
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what a refreshing topic... and i totally agree with you. i got into photography at the wrong time, and all the basics i learned were based on film, not digital. its been hard for me to adjust to the times, but slow and steady i'm getting there.
i do think that images are much more highly edited these says than they used to be, and there is a lot of over-editing going on. there are a lot of mediocre photographers who rely on 'fixing' their images in Photoshop... they plan on it. its just now how i was taught.
at the same time i do agree that Photoshop is a powerful and important tool in photography and whether i like it or not, its an important part of the process.
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If your ever wearing your shirt and someone asks who Mike BartSUki is. Tell them Im a Youtube Sensation and the Top Underground Drifter coming out of Japan! HAHA How JDM is that!
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Old 03-26-2007, 12:47 AM   #5
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There will probably be another response by the time I hit "Post," but regardless...

Great pictures need both good shooting and developing. When people shoot film, the time spent in the darkroom is just as critical as composing the picture and choosing correct settings. Without good composition and the right setting you won't get a good picture, but even with the best picture you need to chose the right ways to bring it out on film.

So now, instead of using a darkroom with (really cool) papers, chemicals, and light, the dark room is a computer. Rendering images that are surreal is no doubt more frequently and easily done now, but it was also done when digital didn't exist. It's a part of photography.

Photoshop is just a tool. Only now, instead of people having to learn to properly develop and print a nice photograph, one can spend a few grand and call themselves an expert. It's a double-edged sword, I guess.
I see your point to an extent but do you recognize the difference between a professional photographer willing to take 100 pictures to get 3 that are worth keeping. Someone who understands lighting, exposure times, balancing the reflective qualities of multiple surface types. Compared to someone who takes a picture with their $50 digi and spends an hour in photoshop and is willing to hand out advice.

Ansel Adams did all of the work on his photographs in the darkroom. He manipulated pictures in a way that few have been able to do before things like photoshop came along. Doesn't change that he had to take a good picture to start with and that is simply not required with photoshop (or other similar programs)
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Old 03-26-2007, 12:49 AM   #6
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ha yeah do a survey to see how many people know what the zone system is. it is A) a football term, B) a construction term, or C) a photography term
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Old 03-26-2007, 12:51 AM   #7
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i do think that images are much more highly edited these says than they used to be, and there is a lot of over-editing going on. there are a lot of mediocre photographers who rely on 'fixing' their images in Photoshop... they plan on it. its just now how i was taught.
at the same time i do agree that Photoshop is a powerful and important tool in photography and whether i like it or not, its an important part of the process.

Exactly what I am saying. I'm not touting the evils of computer editing. I'm saying the same thing you just did. A lot of people don't try to take the photograph right and then tweak it with photoshop. Instea they just plan on taking a picture that they can make look however they want later. I learned photography from my father and I remember sitting with him for hours while he set up a shot, waited for the sun to be in just the right spot, all the colors and contrasts to be perfect. Three rolls of film later he would have maybe four or five pictures worth keeping.
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Old 03-26-2007, 12:53 AM   #8
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ha yeah do a survey to see how many people know what the zone system is. it is A) a football term, B) a construction term, or C) a photography term

Ok I just lost it, that is hillarious. "You mean the rule of thirds isn't me and two chicks?"
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Old 03-26-2007, 12:55 AM   #9
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i assist a really great photographer and we had this discussion when we were driving up to nyc for a shoot a couple months ago. he teaches workshops and said he has students who will shoot a photo that they know is flawed, but they plan on changing the color, or cloning out the random branch, or whatever else in photoshop. he said at his workshops he makes them shoot it right in the camera. the print can only be as good as the negative
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Old 03-26-2007, 12:56 AM   #10
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...there is a lot of over-editing going on. there are a lot of mediocre photographers who rely on 'fixing' their images in Photoshop... they plan on it. its just not how i was taught.
I totally agree. Photoshop is crazy powerful when used tastefully by the right hands, but lots of people with pirated software that bump contrast, shadow/highlight, and saturation and think it's fabulous discourage me.

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I see your point to an extent but do you recognize the difference between a professional photographer willing to take 100 pictures to get 3 that are worth keeping...........)
I think my opinion came off the wrong way when I tried to type it quickly.
I was going to use Ansel Adams as an example since most people should know he is (but I guess some people don't?), so I'm glad you did.
Photoshop is just so accessible and there are so many misguided people. A cheap, intro to photo course would do anyone wonders. The first thing I ever learned about photography was "take 2 or 3 roles and hopefully you'll get 2 or 3 pictures worth keeping."
Basically, I agree more with Bryan than how my post may have come off.


Zone system?
edit: ^that's a joke^, just in case someone takes it seriously.
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Old 03-26-2007, 12:57 AM   #11
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Where does he give the workshop from, sounds like it would be worthwhile to go to.
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Old 03-26-2007, 12:57 AM   #12
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Its not photography anymore in alot of places its who can be the best at a computer program. I have very strong feelings about this topic but its bed time and i don't wanna get upset. Photography like painting and sculpting is an art and i believe to a certain extent when you change a photo so much is it really artistic anymore or is it once again just being good at a computer program.
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Bryan: hmm Word says streetable isnt a word but i say f*** Word
"Its not a Rice Rocket its a Matzah Missile" -RichK
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Old 03-26-2007, 12:59 AM   #13
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he's all over the place... either on a ship this week or in mexico, i forget... all i know is i have to do some scouting for him and email him small compressed photos because he has to download them via satellite internet which is super slow and super expensive... haha. you can probably find out about his workshops on his site, www.bobkrist.com

edit: omg... guess being a NG photog has its perks? check out one of the 'workshops' he's doing this year...

"Around the World by Private Jet
A National Geographic Expedition

Join Bob and famed archeologist Johan Reinhardt on an unforgettable National Geographic expedition, traveling in ease and comfort by private jet. While circling the globe, explore the world's most treasured and legendary natural and cultural wonders. Visit Macchu Pichu in Peru, the incredible stone heads on Easter Island, Samoa, the Great Barrier Reef, Angkor Wat in Cambodia, Tibet, the Taj Mahal in India, a safari on the Serengeti in Tanzania, Egypt, and Morocco on this once-in-a-lifetime adventure. Bob will lead several photo walks at sunrise or sunset and provide individual guidance on capturing spectacular images."
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Old 03-26-2007, 12:59 AM   #14
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Something someone taught me a long time ago with photography before i even knew wha photoshop was and maybe before it ever existed was always start with a good negative, i believe that is something that is slowly being lost as photograph becomes more computer driven.
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Old 03-26-2007, 01:01 AM   #15
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Here you go man, maybe some people will click and learn

Zone System
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_system

Rule of thirds
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_thirds

Two important concepts, the rule of thirds is a more basic principal, where the zone system is more advanced and envolves textures.
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Old 03-26-2007, 01:02 AM   #16
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A good digital image is a combination of in camera settings and post processing. There is only so much that can be done via camera settings. Photoshop is the digital darkroom that allows for additional creativity.

I learned photography on 35mm so I'm part of the old schoolline of thinking quality over quantity. Most younger people nowadays learn on digital and tend to shoot and pray that the image works out and if it doesn't, they can tweak it with post processing. I was at a weekly car meet today and didn't take one photo since I didn't like the location, lighting, and car positions. I didn't take any shots since I knew I wouldn't like the photos, though the other people there would've.

I've been shooting digital for 7 years now and have taken so many shots in a wide range of settings that I can look at a scene, meter it and get the exposure correct 80% of the time, but I still rely on the camera's viewfinder to do the work for me. As far as getting the exposure and framing correct, I'd estimate 97% of my shots are properly exposed and about 80% are framed the way I want them. One of the few things that I'm always doing in Photoshop is desaturating my greens since all of my Canon bodies give a slint green hue in the images.
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Old 03-26-2007, 01:03 AM   #17
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"Around the World by Private Jet
A National Geographic Expedition

Join Bob and famed archeologist Johan Reinhardt on an unforgettable National Geographic expedition, traveling in ease and comfort by private jet. While circling the globe, explore the world's most treasured and legendary natural and cultural wonders. Visit Macchu Pichu in Peru, the incredible stone heads on Easter Island, Samoa, the Great Barrier Reef, Angkor Wat in Cambodia, Tibet, the Taj Mahal in India, a safari on the Serengeti in Tanzania, Egypt, and Morocco on this once-in-a-lifetime adventure. Bob will lead several photo walks at sunrise or sunset and provide individual guidance on capturing spectacular images."
Oh sign me up lol, I would kill to shoot at Macchu Pichu.

**EDIT**
Ok it's 50K......anyone want my Kidney? I have two, pretty good shape, hardly abused.
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Old 12-06-2008, 01:38 PM   #18
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So I saw this today Photojournalism, Technology and Ethics: What’s Right and Wrong Today? and it made me think of this thread. So I figured I would give it a bump now that we have more "Photographers" on TST then ever let's see if any of them have some input here.
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Old 12-06-2008, 02:38 PM   #19
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The question to me is... what is an appropriate level of photoshopping something? I think everyone's definition will vary, because mine sure does.

I personally know very little photoshop compared to most people. I learn as I work, for example I will have an idea that I think would be cool for the image, and I will get a youtube movie to show me how to do it. The most photoshopping I do is, selective coloring and I've removed a person from 2 of my pictures. But the pictures were taken in an old cathedral where I was told I was not allowed to photograph, so it was better to have taken the photograph and edited it, rather then missing it all together.

I started on 35mm film, my old Nikon body from god knows how long ago had tons of rolls of film put through it. Then I picked up a newer film camera, a Minolta Maxxim. Every since I started shooting digital, I find it really hard to get back into film just because I don't get the instant feedback behind the camera. I am however thinking about picking up a Nikon N80 and a Speed Graphics large format camera, just for fun. But as I said, lots of people have different opinions on how much they can alter an image before it has been over photoshopped to someone else. I am very conservative about my photoshopping, the picture is what it is.
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Old 12-06-2008, 02:44 PM   #20
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So I saw this today Photojournalism, Technology and Ethics: What’s Right and Wrong Today? and it made me think of this thread. So I figured I would give it a bump now that we have more "Photographers" on TST then ever let's see if any of them have some input here.
Oh and just to add, I think National Geographic was the one who gave me my definition of what is acceptable Photoshopping.

From the site
Minor burning, dodging and/or color correction is acceptable. Hand tinting is acceptable, as is cropping. Fish-eye lenses are acceptable. High dynamic range images (HDRI) and stitched panoramas are acceptable only if the combined parts are all made around the same time.

and a link...http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ph...t/manipulation

This is why I couldn't enter my Cathedral picture, but I had a bunch more to choose from. These rules would seem like no photoshopping at all to some people.
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