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Old 09-29-2008, 11:34 AM   #1
Vince@R/TTuning
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IM Not saying Meth is bad......Im just saying meth in only two cylinders is bad....

Here are some pics of a motor that we just rebuilt that the customer used meth injection on




As you can see in the above photos that the Methanol was only getting to two cylinders. This is from an EJ25 motor, the first photo is the right side cylinder head and the second is from the left side cylinder head. What was happening was, the Meth wasn't getting atomized and the droplets were flowing all the way through the intake manifold and then hitting the front of the manifold and then dropping down the runners. This is the main problem with a single nozzle style Meth kit install. Then when it comes time for tuning, the tuner is assuming that the meth is getting to all cylinders, allowing for more boost and timing, which becomes a problem for the two rear cylinders that aren't seeing any meth. This is one of the reasons i never was a fan of the meth kits that are sold. Meth itself is great, it just need to be injected directly into the runners to be accurate.

Now, this isn't every motor out there, this is just common on the motors i have seen and tore down. Maybe instead of one nozzle, they should run two or three for better atomization. But again there is no guarantee that it is making it to every cylinder. Hopefully this will enlighten a few people and convince them to just run race gas, which is much more consistent and reliable...
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Old 09-29-2008, 11:44 AM   #2
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Theres this dude i know with a twin turbo firebird and he has it, he said it was the best thing he ever did i guess its how you set it up i don't know much about it so and i don't know the set up he has i will find out.
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Old 09-29-2008, 12:15 PM   #3
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Ew... was he using windshield washer fluid instead of race fuel grade methanol and distilled water? I assume the blue is where the meth was? I'm going to post these on NASIOC in the Aquamist discussion thread which is basically a general Alky discussion thread if you dont mind, I'm interested in what some of the pros there have to say about it.
And is that corrosion on the exhaust ports?

I havent actually turned mine on yet but instead of one big jet close to the throttle body I'm running a .5 and .9 jets farther away from the throttle body for this exact reason... to give it more time to atomize. Another possiblity with his if if the pump wasn't running at as high pressure as it should, or there was a defective nozzle, causing the injection to not spray as fine as it should.

As for tuning discussion however... knock is knock. If there's a 'weak' cylinder thats not doing as well as the rest, it should still set off the knock sensor. I dont see why this would cause a tuning issue unless the car isnt being monitored, and I know this one was.
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Old 09-29-2008, 12:48 PM   #4
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well the problem cylinder on this motor was #4 which was the one that the ring lands broke on.... I know thats the common cylinder for that to happen, meth or not, but you could also see that the two rear cylinders were leaner then the front two. the valves and combustion chamber showed it. It might not have been knocking but it was def leaner the the front two....

Also monitoring knock is a good thing, but it is not the end all be all. You need to evaluate plugs as well. The spark plug is the only thing we have that we can look at to tell us the what is going on in the cylinder. Also motors make alot of noise up in the higher RPM,s and knock sensor sensitivity is effected greatly. alot of big power cars cant even use a knock sensor due to all the noise.....


Let me know what the "Pros" say....
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Last edited by Vince@R/TTuning; 09-29-2008 at 07:18 PM.
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Old 09-29-2008, 01:07 PM   #5
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Ok I just posted it... what did the top side of the heads look like? If it was dripping I would expect to see a 'drip line' on the front most side
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Old 09-29-2008, 01:08 PM   #6
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I was highy debating this route about 6 months ago for cheap horsepower and a retune. After alot of reading I decided against it due to the fact it can go at any time, even with failsafes. To do it right would of cost me almost as much as a turbo so that is the route I am taking. Good luck to you meth heads out there!
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Old 09-29-2008, 01:11 PM   #7
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I've never liked meth injection. Good post Vince, and that really sucks for the owner of that car.

I don't think setting up more nozzles will really help, from what I understand methanol just doesn't atomize extremely well. It's just like those secondary injector kits that are pre throttle body, liquid just doesn't like to take turns and you'll end up running the cylinders at the back of the manifold rich and the front of the manifold lean. Possibly setting up a direct port injection nitrous style would do well, but at that point might as well as just use racegas.

Troll, that's another thing I'm really not all about. Knock sensors. They're a good safeguard yes, but too many people rely solely on the knock sensor. They are not perfect, and unless they change the technology behind them they will never be perfect. I don't even have one on my engine.
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Relax, bud. When the dude with a drag Honda and a boosted daily that has had fast Honda's for years AND fabs his own parts tells the new kids on the block that they're doing it wrong, it's time to step back and learn something.
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Old 09-29-2008, 01:11 PM   #8
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race gas ftmfw
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Old 09-29-2008, 01:28 PM   #9
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Ok I just posted it... what did the top side of the heads look like? If it was dripping I would expect to see a 'drip line' on the front most side

Dripping/dropping was not to be taken literally. if he had drips in the runners he would have real problems... Keep in mind that there is air rushing in the cylinders as well, i dont think i have ever seen actual dripping stains from fuels, i have seen them with mechanical issues with oil...
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Old 09-29-2008, 01:51 PM   #10
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Well then what did you mean? Why is the blue stain so uniform around that intake port?
How did the top side of the heads look? How did the meth jet look? Or the filter in the meth system? That windshield washer **** has additives that clog the system over time, a reason I'd never run it.
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Old 09-29-2008, 02:26 PM   #11
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the reason the blue stain is so even is due to the natural adhesion that the fuel has with the aluminum. between the heat of the aluminum and the coolness of fuel there is an attraction to the aluminum and it actually sticks to the runners. as far as the meth system itself, i cannot tell you the condition of the system, there might very well be an issue with it. but i have also seen 100% working meth systems and have seen the same things.

like i said, i don't use meth systems on cars i build and tune, so i cant speak of the different kinds and the benefits of one nozzle style compared to another, or even what pressures they run at. But what i do know is tuning, building motors, and Diaging fuel injection issues, these are what i do best. what i have seen is, the typical sold over the counter meth kits arent good enough or consistent enough for me to run on cars i put my name on...

what do you me by the top of the head??? the intake side of the port?
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Old 09-29-2008, 04:09 PM   #12
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car was using vp m1 methanol and nozzle was placed in the right position, im no longer running this crap c16 ftmfw
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Old 09-29-2008, 07:54 PM   #13
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one problem with meth was all i needed. Ill do race gas anyday, but never meth again...ever
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:06 AM   #14
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Actually I started using meth at the recommendation of a respected friend/tuner of mine and I like it very much. I started using M1 but after reading the meth tech info form VP I just buy M5 or M3 meth. It has upper cylinder lube and more cooling and octane range. My car is running strong and I like the cheapness of meth

Still I like to run at least 3 failsafes, all work by cutting boost and ruining wastegate pressure. Well I guess I'm an Alcoholic all the way
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:22 AM   #15
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the truth is that when you are injecting anything into an intake manifold pre or even post throttle body, you have no control over the path of the fluid. Heat, ambient temperature and density, all of these will affect the flow of fluid and air for that matter. The only way to control it is to port inject it.
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:45 AM   #16
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The best setups use small fuel injectors setup in a dual injection fashion per cylinder. It is much harder to screw that up. You really have to consider meth a second stage fuel injection to make the engine last.

You wouldn't inject fuel 2 ft from your throttle body in your intercooler tubing and expect good results over time would you?
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Old 09-30-2008, 11:09 AM   #17
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yeah the way i see it....

throttle body injection from the factory ended for a reason...in the mid 90s.
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Old 09-30-2008, 01:18 PM   #18
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This thread just made me think about making my multy port meth injection. Since soon I will pull the manifold out for tgvs and some other work I will take the chance to install nozzle holders on each runner. Now any one has a good idea on what would be a good distance from the tgv housing? I think it would be similar to a No2 wet nitrous multy port system.
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Old 09-30-2008, 01:34 PM   #19
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reason #85686914.1 why I don't run meth :P
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Old 09-30-2008, 01:36 PM   #20
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This thread just made me think about making my multy port meth injection. Since soon I will pull the manifold out for tgvs and some other work I will take the chance to install nozzle holders on each runner. Now any one has a good idea on what would be a good distance from the tgv housing? I think it would be similar to a No2 wet nitrous multy port system.
Thats good to hear.... like i said meth is great its just the way that it is installed most of the time that causes problems.
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