300 AllWheelHP upgrade path and turbo talk

[95nracer]

92 Talon TSi AWD, 6/4bolt

Assuming the car I'm picking up has a good motor with good compression and it has an EPROM ecu (still need to check this) what are the mods needed for around 300 all wheel horsepower or close to it? So far from reading around what I could from work (most DSM sites are blocked from here) I could go with a big 16g, 550 0r 650/80cc injectors, 255 walbro with rewire 10gauge and relay, FPR with install kit, maybe a 2g maf. Full exhaust, don't know which one yet but I want to go with a full 3 inch. Oh and a FMIC.

I'm going to go with an aeromotive FPR with instal kit (around 200 from what I've seen). Just from what I've seen with the 7 it just makes things easier to tune and leaves room for further development.

Big16G just for the simple fact I don't want to deal with the stock 14b. I'm just worried about the stock 1g manifold. Would it be recomended to swap to a 2g mani or could I get away with the 1g if its still in good shape with no cracks?

The maf I'm not to sure about. I could hack the stock one or I could upgrade to the 2g maf. I looked at the gm maft but I think it might be over kill with the horspower goals for the car.

I want to get rid of the stock smic and go with a fmic. I kinda like the one from Extreme Motorsports (ebay) looks like a decent core and for only a short core it still looks like it would flow fairly well. Or there is also the one from SBR. But with any FMIC I want to keep the A/C and as little modding as possible to the bumper support. I think maybe a slim line fan for the A/C is all I might need.

Exhaust I don't know yet. A nice 3 inch would be nice. I read around that alot of exaust systems comes with there own o2 dump. I would like to keep it internally dumped.

Tuning is the big thing right now. I still have to check to see if the ECU has eprom or not. Looks like there is a few choices out there for tuning, but what is necessary for wound 300? I like the DSM link, very tunable and it comes pre-programmed for the injectors and maf. There is also the DSM chips. I kinda want to stay away from an AFC. Can the DSM link log A/F's from a wideband like the PLX unit? The only problem with the DSMlink is that I don't have a laptop yet, but I'm sure I could have someone help me out with that and later get a cheapy laptop from some place to run the thing and be able to log with it.

Thats it for now. I'm just looking at my options and what I could do. Of course I will be looking here first to see if anybody has anything that I could use and be able to save from having to pay full price for some of the stuff.


Your opinions would be very helpful with this. I am very much a noob when it comes to DSM's.

Thanks for the look,
Jerry

[turbotool]

The first thing I would do is make sure everything you already have is in tip top shape. Make sure the block and head and tranny are good. If not, spend your money there and get it done right. The cars are super cheap to mod but its expensive to get the stock stuff rebuilt after you blow it up from all the mods. It looks like the parts you selected are a good start if you wanna get inthe 300awhp range. Don't let it brake your heart(or your wallet). You'll be scarred for life.

P.S.-If it was me I'd leave it semi-stock because you already have a fast car and if you're using the DSM for a daily driver its not gonna be too reliable after you're putting down 300awhp.

[95nracer]

The car is for my wife. :devil: It would be fun for her to be able to hang with me. :wink:


Of course I'm going to go over everything before I even consider doing anything to the car. The first thing is going to be timing belt and then I'm going to have to replace the throw out bearing. Full tune up, fluids, plugs, etc, etc.. I will have help in this, I am fortunate enough that there is alot of people in this area that are very knowledgable in 4g63's.

I won't be throwing everything on it at once. She's going to have to learn how to launch/drive the car first. LoL..

[2point4DSM]

from: http://www.buschurracing.com/dsm-stage1.htm
(This list has been modded)
Upgrade Sequencing — Stage 1
Take your car to as much as 300hp - and click off low 13's to high 12's in the 1/4 mile!

1) 1g - K&N Air Filter
Tips:
*Cut the top of the factory airbox off leaving the front and rear mounting holes intact

*Remove the air silencer (the paper filter located behind the MAS)

*Remove the smaller of the two honeycombs in the MAS - Do NOT remove the larger one. This modification will allow 2-3 psi more boost before hitting fuel cut

2) Turbo-back exhaust with test-pipe
3) Boost or Boost/Vacuum Gauge
4) Boost Controller
5) Fuel Pump
*Once you have performed modifications 1-5 above, you'll be able to increase the boost to >16psi if you upgrade the factory fuel pump to one with higher flow. Walbro 190 is recommended since the 255 will require a adjustable FPR.
6) Port Work
*port your O2 housing, exhaust manifold housing, and turbine housing. This will make your turbo spool up faster, relieve unwanted backpressure, and increase your top-end power.

Port work has the added benefit of improving engine reliablity since less backpressure causes less strain on your engine, resulting in longer engine life.

7) Ported 2G Exhaust Manifold
If you have a 1G, you may want to replace the 1G exhaust manifold with a higher-flowing, ported 2G manifold.
8) High-Performance Clutch
*The stock clutch will allow much of the new power at the crank to slip past the flywheel and your car won't "feel" as fast as it really is. A new clutch will also improve your 60' times at the track since it transfers more power to the ground.

We prefer the ACT 2100 or 2600 lb clutches. An added benefit it that the clutch discs are replaceable without replacing the pressure plate.

The ACT 2100 will hold enough power to propel you car into the high 11's.

The ACT 2600 will hold as much power as a DSM can produce! There is a significant increase in pedal pressure over stock with this clutch and any problems with your clutch pedal/hyraulics/clutch fork will show up after this install.

At this point in the buildup, you should have spent no more than $1200, if you performed the labor yourself. Your car will now be nearing the 300hp mark. A really well-tuned Stage 1 AWD car can achieve ET's as quick as 12.40's at a trap speed of 109mph with these simple modifications. (on race gas)

[2point4DSM]

Dexter can be my witness to how fun a well tuned DSM can be even with a few mods.

[BlackBulletTSi]

Dexter can be my witness to how fun a well tuned DSM can be even with a few mods.

YES I CAN, and hell I ONLY have a FWD car. When I bought the car I had to do a few things to her. However once I did with the help of my good buddy here I'm now pushing 14PSI with only a 2.5" Turbo Back Exhaust :). I love this car and can't wait to do more. Hope you enjoy it and always ask the DSM community owns and always willing to help.

[subwrxkid]

YES I CAN, and hell I ONLY have a FWD car. When I bought the car I had to do a few things to her. However once I did with the help of my good buddy here I'm now pushing 14PSI with only a 2.5" Turbo Back Exhaust :). I love this car and can't wait to do more. Hope you enjoy it and always ask the DSM community owns and always willing to help.OT- but were you the kid next to me at the light on the newtown bypass after the meet last Thursday, I was waiting for you to start revin so I coulda put a whoop down on ya, j/p you drive kinda fast there buddy!

[Driven]

As far as the tuning, go with DSMLink from the begining and you won't regret it. I know I sound like an advertisement for DSMLink, but I can honestly say it's one of the best products I've put on my car, and probably the one part in it that has stayed on the car the longest. Read up on all its capabilities at www.dsmlink.com

You can wire in two 0-5V sensors and chances are, the calibrations are already done for them. I have a GM 3 bar map sensor and a PLX wideband as my two sensors. I can now log just about everything going on. It's an invaluable tool.

You're going to also need to look into a clutch and flywheel shortly after you start making that power. If you're putting a TO bearing in the car already, I'd do the clutch then. If you've pulled a DSM trans, you'll understand why.

[koho2731]

I would stay away from a 16g unless it has a upgraded flapper or it will creep. Then you may have the problem of the flapper being blown open. If you port the gen 1 maifold it will crack. For tunning a chip and Gm MAS and translator will be fine for 300awhp. Also a Wideband is a must data logger would also be nice. The walbro 255 is over kill if you just want 300awhp the 190 will work and you don't have to buy a FPR.

[2point4DSM]

I agree that DSMlink is an awesome tool but it is pricey as well and not required for a 300awhp DSM. A good bang for the buck lately is a VPC... and only because of DSMlink, lol.

Compare:

DSMlink... $600,
MAFT... $200,
GM maf with couplings... $150-$200,
Eprom ECU... $250-$400,
used Laptop... $100-$200,
tuning... $$$

vs.

VPC... comes complete with pressure sensor, temp sensor, and harness. Gets rid of maf completely so the turbo spools up faster than with MAF sensor. Tried and true and has taken countless DSMs from high to mid 12s into the 11s. Good enough to go 9s. Change from race gas tune to pump gas tune with a single dial. Comes with countless hours of HKS dyno tuning. Lets your BOV release to atmosphere. Less hose clamp connections on your IC pipes and won't cause the motor to stall and leave you stranded if your IC pipes blow apart. Simple and reliable!

[95nracer]

The clutch was supposedly changed out for a center force unit, but the car sat for a long time. The car was the daughters car, but now no longer needs it. Hence not being driven. The clutch should be ok, but I'll find out soon. I don't know if I want to do the flywheel yet. Yes the flywheel will help it rev easier and faster but the rpm's will drop a whole lot faster also. Good for autox but may not be the best thing for drag.

The car seems to be in good shape doesn't really show signs that it was beat on. The paint sucks, but the interior is great and doesn't seem like it was ever smoked in. Which makes me very happy. :wiggle:


The DSM link looks to be a very solid unit, but for 300hp I might not need it. Just wanted to hear the opions on it. I still alteast want to log some how and I want to use the wideband that I already have. I just need another harness and a sensor and I can use the wideband between vehicles.


The problem with the VPC that I can see is that they are hard to get. I don't see them for sell that much. I've also heard that it can sometimes be tough to tune with and sometimes the car doesn't want to start or hold a very good idle.

If I where to get a 16G I would get it with the upgraded larger flapper or even better yet use external gated.

Now I gotta another question. Since the 190 pump is fine for about 300hp can I use a pump from a 3gen RX7? I might have one laying around.

What about injectors. Will 550's be ok with the DSM chip? Stage 3 I think? I have 2 right now from my T2 and I will have 2 more once I get the new ECU for my car. They are stock Nippon Denso low impedence.

So far for now I'm giong to uprgade the exhaust, intake/hacked maf. Then port the turbo and get a 2g ported manifold.

Will the stock intercooler be enough for 300hp? That thing is tiny! Atleast its in the air flow. I will probably hack the fender liner to help air flow also.

More opinions needed, but this has been very helpful.

Thanks :afro:

[koho2731]

The stage 3 chip would be good for pretty much any size injector I would go 650 for more head room and the are the same price at http://www.fuelinjectorclinic.com/cart/mitsubishi.htm The stage 3 chip from www.dsmchips.com has the 3 step shutterbox, fuel cut eliminator ext. The data logger from http://www.pocketlogger.com/index.php?pid=dsm is okay and pretty cheap. Also I may be upgraging my manifold so if I do you can have it cheap just get Allie to ask Tabitha nicely :lol:

[95nracer]

:rofl: Thats funny, yeah I'll keep that in mind. I'm sure they get along so I'll let her take car of the dealings. LoL..


I was thinking pocketlogger. I like them already because I am already running there chip for the RX7 and I think that was the whole reason for me getting into the 12's. They will be selling a tuner for the 87-88 T2 soon and I'll have to get a palm pilot anyways, but I wonder if the palm pilot memory will have enough memory to log 2 cars and two different logging programs?

[2point4DSM]

About fuel pump tech:

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/fuelpumptechtip.htm

About injector tech:

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/eclfuel.htm

I got my injectors off a 5 letter RX7 and they flowed 680-690cc and worked well on my car for years with no problems.

[2point4DSM]

I wonder if the palm pilot memory will have enough memory to log 2 cars and two different logging programs?

Even a palm M100 will have more than enough memory. And I really like the pocketlogger, too. That is what I used for years on my own car. And I still have all that if you want to try it out.

[95nracer]

Awesome! LoL.. I'm getting pumped about the new car! I think even more so for Allie. She has been waiting a long time for me to replace the car that was stolen some time back.

Nice. Saved to favorites!^^

[2point4DSM]

If I where to get a 16G I would get it with the upgraded larger flapper or even better yet use external gated.

If you get a 16g it needs to be an evo 3 big 16g and you should get it with a bigger flapper but not ported. That way it will have a lot of sealing surface and if need be we can port it if you still get boost creep. At least the flapper is there already. Also, you can get a tubular o2 housing with dump tube which will give the car a lot more power at the same time making boost more controllable. Of course an external is the best and most times more relaible solution, but not your only option.

I say stick with the 14b for now. It will get you in the 12s.

[koho2731]

The palm m100 is not in production any more, but most shoud have enough memory. You can always swap out the file with your pc as you need it to.

[2point4DSM]

The problem with the VPC that I can see is that they are hard to get. I don't see them for sell that much. I've also heard that it can sometimes be tough to tune with and sometimes the car doesn't want to start or hold a very good idle.

Even with HKS 272s, stock idle rpm, 680-690 denso injectors my car idled and started perfectly. And it ran fine, too, lol.

There has been several bad VPC units circulating around ebay for a while. Maybe the same one, lol. Most people that have a VPC love it and usually don't let it go till they absolutely need to go with AEM, lol.

[koho2731]

Just say screw it to the 16g and get a 50 trim :lol: they aren't that much more and a whole lot better. http://www.thespeedfactor.com/turbo_t3t4_dsm_bep.html

[2point4DSM]

I admit, in the mid 90s I actually bought a used VPC unit which gave me problems. I didn't know any better and figured my car just wasn't set up right for it and ended up reselling it.

Years later a good friend of mine bought one with very similar problems that I had with it. By this time yahoo forums were up and a lot of knowledgeable DSM people were trying to help diagnose the problem. Turns out it was a very weird problem. My buddy ended up selling it on ebay, lol.

VPCs have different chip options so a lot of guys end up taking then apart to swap chips. Very possible someone messed one up while trying to do this.

Anyway, I bought my current VPC brand new so I knew I was getting a good unit. It was one of the last in the country when I bought it, lol.

[95nracer]

Maybe thats where I was hearing the rumors from. I mean alot of people where bringing/exporting them from Nippon, but I don't think alot of people knew what the condition was or how they where modded.


Just say screw it to the 16g and get a 50 trim :lol: they aren't that much more and a whole lot better. http://www.thespeedfactor.com/turbo_t3t4_dsm_bep.html


Oh bejebus! If I was looking for 400hp or more than yeah I would consider it. LoL.. (*wisper* Sshh, I can't have Allie smoking the living hell out of me now. lol.. *wisper*). Definetly a nice looking turbo though.

[2point4DSM]

The palm m100 is not in production any more, but most shoud have enough memory. You can always swap out the file with your pc as you need it to.

The M100 is such an old unit that most newer units will have way more capacity. I used the M100 or M105 and the program and logs didn't even come close to maxxing its tiny memory.

I think the program is like 75k and the palm had 2megs of memory.

[koho2731]

Just an opiton :lol: you don't want to have to upgrade again do you? The other optin is to give Allie the FC and keep the Talon for yourself :devil:

[2point4DSM]

50 trims can easily make 400whp on pump gas. I would only recommend the FP Green though. Mitsu turbos are the most reliable. FP Green is mostly made up of Mitsu turbo parts.

[95nracer]

Just an opiton :lol: you don't want to have to upgrade again do you? The other optin is to give Allie the FC and keep the Talon for yourself :devil:

Hell NO! LoL. I love that car, but I got a soft spot for 4g63's. :o


Maybe down the road like maybe a few years then I would go with something like that.

Sounds like this car is going to rock! :supz:

[koho2731]

Mitsu turbos are the most reliable. FP Green is mostly made up of Mitsu turbo parts.
:roll: Okay I forgot Garret makes nothing but crap and the will never last more than a few runs. Any quality turbo will last as long as you take care of it.

[2point4DSM]

Hell NO! LoL. I love that car,
I knew you would say that. Too many have tried to tell me to get rid of the DSM and get either a Supra or V8 something.

I've had a turbo AWD DSM since HS so it has a lot of sentimental value. Not even my wife is going to make me get rid of it, lol.

[2point4DSM]

:roll: Okay I forgot Garret makes nothing but crap and the will never last more than a few runs. Any quality turbo will last as long as you take care of it.

Here is how I see it....

The problem with Garrett turbos is that they are bought in pieces. Meaning Precision, AGP, etc, do not buy these turbos already put together ready for your DSM. So the turbo is only as good as your turbo builder.

And I've heard countless stories of Garrett turbos falling apart, or not lasting, etc. Even from meticulous DSM guys and DSM shops.

I've seen some locally that just have not lasted very well coming from reputable turbo shops.

And then there are turbo shops out there that are out right terrible. Ever heard of the mutt series turbos. Or the Garrett turbos put together with 260 degree bearings, lol.

FP has had a lot of success putting together Mitsu turbos.

YMMV.

[koho2731]

True I've hear of shop not even balancing there turbos just slapping them together, but that doesn't mean companys like Presision, Turbonetics, Turbo concepts, ext. don't manke quality products. Do I have to bring up any SSAutochrome turbo Mitsu style or Garret or even the Evo III 16 GT which are all garented to fail in less the 6 months :lol: . Not all garrets are crap I belives AMS is having some good luck with the Garret GT seires