Opinions on dyno results (DYNO SHEET UP)

[2001teg]

I finally got my car tuned and have to say I am disappointed with the results. I feel like alot of other similar builds resulted better than I did.

194.8 WHP 131.86 tq redline is at 8400 vtec is at 6500

Basic run down:

82mm GSR block
12:5 comp.
Ported and Polished GSR head
Valves/Springs/Retainers
Blox stage 2 cams
Fully bolted minus a throttle body.
2.5 Exhaust w/ Hytech replica headers.
Hondata s100

Comments/Thoughts?

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g121/freestyl498/DSC05159.jpg

[Foolinaround]

Thats really good i think for NA. especially with no building on the bottom end

[TalonTsi97]

What kind of dyno was it?

[2001teg]

I only used the stock rods because the cams didnt get good reviews on power past 8500, so I didnt plan on revving it to the moon. Taking it to 9k would barely put me a the 200 whp mark based on what the sheet looks like. Although it wouldn't surprise me if others bull**** their dyno results.

The dyno was a dyno jet.

[TalonTsi97]

Every dyno, tuner, day, is different so you have to take that into factor. How much more did you think it was going to make?

[Foolinaround]

So you used cams that didnt get a good review for high revving,with a high revving motor?

[2001teg]

No what I should have said was the power band on the cams wasn't at motorcycle revving limits.

Similar builds that I basically coppied off of made a minimum 200 whp. Im not trying to bitch about anything, I guess its more of a me wanting to make sure this is normal.

[TalonTsi97]

Like i said, every motor is different, every dyno is different, every tuner is different, the correction factor could be different, air could be different. If you were supposed to make 250whp and only made 190 i'd be concerned but if you made 190 and were expecting 200whp then that could be based off the things i just mentioned.

Have any videos of the dyno runs?

[Fujito]

Every dyno reads differently. The only way to know whether you got real gains or not is to get a base dyno before the mods or tune.

[TalonTsi97]

Every dyno reads differently. The only way to know whether you got real gains or not is to get a base dyno before the mods or tune.

Exactly^

What correction factors were used on the sheet?

[Fujito]

And if it makes you feel any better people on my Evo forum have based dyno'd 50 WHP less than what others have because some dyno's read very low.

Don't get too caught up on the numbers. The most important thing is your butt dyno and how the car feels.

[Foolinaround]

He is right,you cant compare dyno sheets based on so many variables that can change.

[PhillyLS1]

Only number that matters is what it does at the track. If you like the car be happy with it.

[Renegade_]

Go to the track and see what you trap.

You do know you can make a "300whp" car read over "500whp" if you calibrate the dyno wrong haha

As long as you enjoy driving you car, who cares if you cant beat a C6 in a straight line haha

Drive your car and enjoy it.

[2001teg]

All of what was said is comepletely true. The car still rips and is a thrill to drive. Vince at R/T did a great job, and was pretty damn informative. Feburary when the track open I will see what she runs and go from there. Maybe Ill change out cams and build a B20 bottom end after I get bored of it.

[The Captain]

almost 200whp from a b18 w/ bolt ons and some head work? I'd be pretty damn happy with that.

[Foolinaround]

Exactly,there was no bottom end workk and you limited the revs. so how much were you expecting

[2001teg]

I have different pistons 12:5 comp. Its not a completely stock bottom end. Its bored to 82mm too.

[Foolinaround]

Did you happen to read this

http://www.team-integra.net/sections/articles/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=233

its a good read just for more info in choosing more parts.

[sleeper15]

thats really good. when i first got my hatchback over in cali, the first time i dyno'd it, all i had done to it was a intake manifold, header, exhaust, chipped p28 and mild port polish, and it hit 171whp.

after i had more head work done, crower 402, 11.5:1 pistons, apex vtec controller, and larger injectors, i hit 184whp.

so, if i had 12.5:1 like your, i'd be just barly over 200who myself.

also, i've added a msd ignition to the car, and i need a retune (i need a hondata)

[JSpecV03]

Did you happen to read this

http://www.team-integra.net/sections/articles/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=233

its a good read just for more info in choosing more parts.

wow. really good info there for anyone who hasnt read that.

mark did an awesome job with this car. it rips. regaurdless of what the outcome is, its pretty nasty

[Notorious92rhdEG]

sell that b-series peice of junk and put a k24 in there.
i have a couple tsx longblocks if your interested

[marecco]

just so you know it seems to me that alot of times vince likes to tune on the safer side in terms of A/F and what not. it makes no sense for you to make the tune and setup more unsafe to make the 6-10whp more that maybe some other people are seeing. Vince has always tuned my car and the tune is always amazing and the performance and response are great. put more emphasis on that than the peak numbers. plus it looks like the powerband is smooth. good numbers

[daewoo]

sell that b-series peice of junk and put a k24 in there.
i have a couple tsx longblocks if your interestedtrue...

[K20EF9]

I finally got my car tuned and have to say I am disappointed with the results. I feel like alot of other similar builds resulted better than I did.

194.8 WHP 131.86 tq redline is at 8400 vtec is at 6500

Basic run down:

82mm GSR block
12:5 comp.
Ported and Polished GSR head
Valves/Springs/Retainers
Blox stage 2 cams
Fully bolted minus a throttle body.
2.5 Exhaust w/ Hytech replica headers.
Hondata s100

Comments/Thoughts?

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g121/freestyl498/DSC05159.jpg

Well when you say blox stage 2 I'm assuming you mean blox b's. The c's would have been better for you if you were to stay with blox. A bigger exhaust would free up more power.

Remember though all dynos are different.

[2001teg]

No Im 100% happy with the power the car made, it just annoys me that the car falls on its face between 5800 and 6800.

[The Alchemist]

Why is your vtec set so late?

I did notice that it falls flat like you said.

Why dont you set the vtec lower.

I dont GSR block as well as i do the h22. But I always thought civic motors would vtec at around 4500. I have my vtec set at 5100 hundred on h22

[gdmbat85]

I'm no honda guy, but if it were me, i'd set the vtec at like 4500.

[Foolinaround]

I overlooked where you had it set because i assumed 4500,dropping your vtec down lower will give you more bottom end power but not necessarily more top end,it might even lower it.

[2001teg]

Im just afraid it will throw off the a/f if I set vtec a little lower. Im no tuner but it seems like the "regular cam" is only good until 5600 than thats where the "bigger cam" should kick in. As I have read VTEC should be a smooth transition, not an abrupt power surge.

Here is what I am thinking and I am going to run it by vince. Set the vtec a little sooner and hope for a more even cross over. Granted the upper slope wont be as steep, however it will be a more consistent line.

[K20EF9]

Why is your vtec set so late?

I did notice that it falls flat like you said.

Why dont you set the vtec lower.

I dont GSR block as well as i do the h22. But I always thought civic motors would vtec at around 4500. I have my vtec set at 5100 hundred on h22

You know I didn't even notice that. It's usually up to the tuner to play with it a little bit to find out where it makes the best power. On my old b20v hatch vtec was set at 5000.

Im just afraid it will throw off the a/f if I set vtec a little lower. Im no tuner but it seems like the "regular cam" is only good until 5600 than thats where the "bigger cam" should kick in. As I have read VTEC should be a smooth transition, not an abrupt power surge.

Here is what I am thinking and I am going to run it by vince. Set the vtec a little sooner and hope for a more even cross over. Granted the upper slope wont be as steep, however it will be a more consistent line.

Not to be a dick to whoever tunes the car, but maybe you should go to a more well known tuner that deals with mostly Hondas. For example Derek or John at IMW, Evans, etc...

[JSpecV03]

^^ 2nd opinions never hurt. i think its good idea.

[Foolinaround]

http://www.team-integra.net/sections/articles/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=45

Just another fancy read all about the wonders of vtec

[Vince@R/TTuning]

Hey mark, ill hit ya up tomorrow...but i dont think your vtec is set that high....i know its set at the optimal point that gives you the smoothest power band and crossover from low cam to high cam. That dip in TQ is really common in all of those buddyclub/Blox/BC cmas...all those cam companies that just copy off of everybody else's specs...all they seem to care about is high rpm HP numbers and midrange TQ seems to suffer



Not to be a dick to whoever tunes the car, but maybe you should go to a more well known tuner that deals with mostly Hondas. For example Derek or John at IMW, Evans, etc...

Its cool, you might not know but other then Jeff Evans, i have probably tuned more Hondas then any body else in the tristate area and probably PA...

[K20EF9]

Hey mark, ill hit ya up tomorrow...but i dont think your vtec is set that high....i know its set at the optimal point that gives you the smoothest power band and crossover from low cam to high cam. That dip in TQ is really common in all of those buddyclub/Blox/BC cmas...all those cam companies that just copy off of everybody else's specs...all they seem to care about is high rpm HP numbers and midrange TQ seems to suffer





Its cool, you might not know but other then Jeff Evans, i have probably tuned more Hondas then any body else in the tristate area and probably PA...

Like I said before I wasn't trying to be a dick. I just haven't heard of R/T Tuning other than just now. I recommended the only 3 people(2 at the same shop) I'd go to in PA.

I know IMW recently tuned an 81.5mm RS Machines ITR Piston GSR with stock port head. Only major differences are Blox C's, Header, and 68mm TB. It put down 220whp with a stock port Intake manifold, and 225whp with a ported intake manifold. That's a smaller bore with less compression, and no head work.

Before he went to the Blox C's he had the Blox A's, and I forget the exact number, but I know it made more than 190whp.

[Vince@R/TTuning]

Thats cool...this thread isnt really about comparing different set ups as much as it is making sure he has the best tune for his set up...which is still running a cat and adjustable cam gears which wernt touched... ill check his logs tomorrow and see where his vtec is and what timing i ran and such....i really dont recall everything about his set up....


Also the numbers you posted im assuming was on a dynapak....which has been proven to read 10-15% higher then a dynojet...but like i said this thread isnt about different set ups on different dynos...

[K20EF9]

Thats cool...this thread isnt really about comparing different set ups as much as it is making sure he has the best tune for his set up...which is still running a cat and adjustable cam gears which wernt touched... ill check his logs tomorrow and see where his vtec is and what timing i ran and such....i really dont recall everything about his set up....


Also the numbers you posted im assuming was on a dynapak....which has been proven to read 10-15% higher then a dynojet...but like i said this thread isnt about different set ups on different dynos...

No it isn't, but I was just giving similar results from a kind of similar setup. I know the setup I posted the cam gears are still at 0,0.

Yes it was a dynapack, but your 10-15% BS is just that BS. It all depends how you have your dyno setup, and IMW's dyno reads fairly low. I believe Bills CRX was tuned on a dynojet before they got there dynapack, and it made the same exact power as the dynojet that is said to read lower.

[Vince@R/TTuning]

like i said...ill check tomorrow at his logs and see where everything is at....

As fas as the dynapak VS Dynojet..your right its all about the set up(from what i understand...i have never used a Dynapak) but i would say 95% of the time the difference between the 2 dyno's is roughly 10% some times more...i have had dozens of guys come and use my dyno simply for numbers only, after they were tuned by Evans just to see what they put down on a Dynojet. Cars ran great...were tuned great.. but they just wanted a Dynojet number cause that is what is used as the standard in dyno readings and accuracy. Most of the time they read a lil lower and showed more peaks and dips in power then it did on the printout they got....

[K20EF9]

like i said...ill check tomorrow at his logs and see where everything is at....

As fas as the dynapak VS Dynojet..your right its all about the set up(from what i understand...i have never used a Dynapak) but i would say 95% of the time the difference between the 2 dyno's is roughly 10% some times more...i have had dozens of guys come and use my dyno simply for numbers only, after they were tuned by Evans just to see what they put down on a Dynojet. Cars ran great...were tuned great.. but they just wanted a Dynojet number cause that is what is used as the standard in dyno readings and accuracy. Most of the time they read a lil lower and showed more peaks and dips in power then it did on the printout they got....

That's fine. I'm not a tuner I don't claim to be. That's why I tried comparing a somewhat similar setup, but as you know even 2 motors exactly the same with the same mods more than likely won't make the same power on the same day as the other.

I won't disagree some people set the dynapacks up differently for some odd reason. I've even saw dynapack dyno sheets that say flywheel hp on them. From my experience though IMW's dynapack seems to read rather low compared to some.

[K20EF9]

To the OP if you want more power ditch the cat, upgrade to a 3 inch exhaust, get yourself a vstack, and some bigger cams.

[Vince@R/TTuning]

I hear ya...i usually dont really care to debate stuff like this online...but i swear its always the Honda B series guys (this isnt knocking the OP) that have these numbers in their head and then go back and forth on what might be causing what? And im like..."i just had a guy in here last week that had the same EXACT set up as you and you are makin 6 more HP"...so id be pretty happy...:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

But your right....i have had bolt on B16's with no tuning range from 140whp-165 whp...when we dyno them after a swap... so who knows...all ya can do is the best you have with the set up in front of ya and see what the result is at the end...:mrgreen:

[Foolinaround]

3 inch is way too wide for NA,2.5 would be better for his setup as it sits now,and instead of a regular stock cat try a highflow if youre worried about emissions.

Also to add in my own opinion,the air conditions can be different between the two shops,along with the temperature etc. usually a 10% difference in power means it was just something to do with variables and not the car itself.

[K20EF9]

3 inch is way too wide for NA,2.5 would be better for his setup as it sits now,and instead of a regular stock cat try a highflow if youre worried about emissions.

Also to add in my own opinion,the air conditions can be different between the two shops,along with the temperature etc. usually a 10% difference in power means it was just something to do with variables and not the car itself.

Are you willing to bet your lunch money on that..?

[Foolinaround]

anything over 2.5 unless youre breaking over 350-400 is only going to be detrimental,even with scavenging.

[K20EF9]

anything over 2.5 unless youre breaking over 350-400 is only going to be detrimental,even with scavenging.


The solid line is the current 3" exhaust, the dotted was with the 2.5" cutout open, with the 2.25" exhaust getting priority in the exhaust routing.

The compression is 11.7:1 or so.

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k83/soundinnovations/CRX95mmHeadFix_vs_opencutout.jpg

The switch to the overall larger exhaust made a few HP everywhere.

[The Captain]

H22's loooove 3in.

[K20EF9]

After a couple months of running around at the 211whp/152wtq power level in my K20A2-swapped coupe, I decided it was time to change something and get a little more pep from her.

So, a friend of mine who had just recently gotten rid of his turbo EM1 offered me his Thermal 3" exhaust at a very reasonable rate.

The results speak for themselves, the 3" exhaust made more power EVERYWHERE compared to the 2.5" ID exhaust that was previously on the car.

The solid line is the 3", the dotted line is the 2.5" exhaust.

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k83/soundinnovations/drob3inch.jpg

Once more, this is a stock internal (from valve cover to oil pan) K20A2, and the only mods are an RBC intake manifold, 11" intake with velocity stack.filter combo, and long-tube Tri-Y header, tuned on K-Pro.

I believe there to be more power in the midrange is I could get some more length out of the intake, as the resonance is occurring much too early.

- Derek

I can keep posting stuff like this all day long.

[Foolinaround]

The solid line is the current 3" exhaust, the dotted was with the 2.5" cutout open, with the 2.25" exhaust getting priority in the exhaust routing.

The compression is 11.7:1 or so.

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k83/soundinnovations/CRX95mmHeadFix_vs_opencutout.jpg

The switch to the overall larger exhaust made a few HP everywhere.

Comparing an open cutout to a full exhaust with a 2.25" primary compared to a full 3 of course the one with the best flow compared to the choppiness of the cutout is going to show better hp :cyberguy:

[K20EF9]

Comparing an open cutout to a full exhaust with a 2.25" primary compared to a full 3 of course the one with the best flow compared to the choppiness of the cutout is going to show better hp :cyberguy:

See above post. :finga:

Heres the link in case you missed the big ass graph.

http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=46317

[K20EF9]

Well according to you if 3 inch is too big than open header should....

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2306105

... oh that's right still gain power.

[K20EF9]

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2197695

Another..? Hmm... I'll stop now.

[ndubz]

Its a naturally aspirated small displacement motor. it wont pull much more than that w/o boost. I MEAN 194 WHP is something like 230-250 crank hp.

[2001teg]

For god sakes, im thrilled at 194 whp. I **** bricks when I saw that. Like I said 100 times its just that nasty, nasty dip. It kills me every time I run someone.

[Foolinaround]

Sorry you felt the need to keep re-posting while i wasnt here,coulda posted it all in one thread,will edit after i read through your info.

[Foolinaround]

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2197695

That one is 2.25 vs 3 so its invalid

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2306105

Posted in that thread like 2 posts down

"but that torque curve falls off rapidly starting at 7500. So the gains up at 9500 are pretty useless as at that time you have dropped down to 100 ft-lbs. Good looking peak numbers though."

and a few farther down

"I wouldn't neccesarily say that this is "proof" that this will apply to all motors. This is a large motor, and the guy could've had a super restrictive muffler with like 2 resonators for all we know, so of course it would gain power."
Meaning he didnt post his old exhaust setup,so who knwos what he had

"BIG MOTOR=3in exhaust
1.8L an under 2.5in"

Agreed

And that last one is yours,look at your chart(being it over 1.8 a 3 would be better) the flow of your curves with the 3 inch are everywhere.

So for his application i would recommend nothing over 2.5 smart ass.

[K20EF9]

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2197695

That one is 2.25 vs 3 so its invalid

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2306105

Posted in that thread like 2 posts down

"but that torque curve falls off rapidly starting at 7500. So the gains up at 9500 are pretty useless as at that time you have dropped down to 100 ft-lbs. Good looking peak numbers though."

and a few farther down

"I wouldn't neccesarily say that this is "proof" that this will apply to all motors. This is a large motor, and the guy could've had a super restrictive muffler with like 2 resonators for all we know, so of course it would gain power."
Meaning he didnt post his old exhaust setup,so who knwos what he had

"BIG MOTOR=3in exhaust
1.8L an under 2.5in"

Agreed

And that last one is yours,look at your chart(being it over 1.8 a 3 would be better) the flow of your curves with the 3 inch are everywhere.

So for his application i would recommend nothing over 2.5 smart ass.

Still is a 3 inch and gained power.

The tq curve fell off before, and after so whats the difference..?

LOL who cares what anyone else says. It says in the original post. "it has a knock off hytec header with a straight 2.5 inch mandrel bent exhaust and a straight through apexi muffler. no cat, no resonator."

I never knew a 2.0L was a big motor. It's funny how before you said you need 350whp for a 3 inch exhaust, but now all of sudden I post a few 2.0L and up, and you aren't saying that anymore.

Let me guess you think a motor needs back pressure right..?

Just admit you were wrong, and move along. Your original statement was "anything over 2.5 unless youre breaking over 350-400 is only going to be detrimental,even with scavenging." You were wrong, and you pretty much admitted saying now a 2.0L will benefit from a 3 inch exhaust. LOL you clearly have no idea what you are talking about from your first post that started all this.

[Foolinaround]

Thanks for band wagoning me that im retarded.

a 2.0 compared to a 1.8 is a bigger motor. And it never gave anything about his stock setup,if you didnt just skim through what i posted.

and you torque curve drop was worse after the 3 inch then before.

[K20EF9]

Well you said you needed at least 350whp, now all of a sudden you just need a 2.0L. I clearly proved you don't need anywhere near 350whp.

I don't disagree with that, but I don't think I know what you are talking about, about the tq drop. Are you referring to the open header thread or what..?

What do you mean mine..?

[Foolinaround]

that torque curve in the other thread sorry,i got caught up watching something on tv.
.
And either you need high power on a lower displacement motor,or a large displacement motor.

[K20EF9]

I still am not sure which thread you are referring to.

"Despite what I've heard, I have never once seen any sort of proof that you can lose power by changing to a larger exhaust. From reading SAE papers and textbooks, the general consensus is everything after the last merge collector is a restriction."

I haven't saw proof yet either.

[Foolinaround]

the thread of the open header i think.

"after the last merge collector" meaning the collector at the bottom of the header correct?

[K20EF9]

First post in the open header thread the guy says. "it has a knock off hytec header with a straight 2.5 inch mandrel bent exhaust and a straight through apexi muffler. no cat, no resonator."

Then they show a graph comparing that exhaust to open header where open header made more power and tq across the whole rpm range.

This is what he says after the graph...

"notice there was NO power lost anywhere. in the midrange there were significant gains and past the power peak the gains were pretty good there too. Almost 10ft/lbs and 13hp at 6500 rpms. the tach pickup lost the signal on the open header run, but at 9500 rpms there was a 14hp gain.

i did NO retuning with it open header, it deffinatly wanted some more fuel so there would have been even more gains... we just ran out of time on the dyno. "

So again I'm really not sure what you are referring to, because it tells the whole exhaust setup, and doesn't lose power anywhere.

http://www.bkraceengines.com.au/MergeCollectors/MergeCollector-A-400x267.jpg

That is the merge collector.

[Foolinaround]

Yes thats what i assumed,3 inch on that collector IMO would be too large.

And im confusing the threads then,one had a hp graph and then one after the change to a 3,showing no detail of the stock.

We can sit here and kick sand at eachother all night,but i will just leave my opinions as noted,as will you.

[K20EF9]

Well in most cases yes, but it would all depend on the setup.

[Vince@R/TTuning]

Vtec is at 5700...

[K20EF9]

So I'm assuming the op was going off the tach then as he said 6500. Lol

[JSpecV03]

now i dont know if this question has been aswered already or not, but if vtec engaged eariler, say below where it levels off the picks back up, would that affect the low end or the high end power, or would it still have that flat spot? what would that do for afr's as well?

editL mybad if this is a noob question, im learning about honda's and watching the building of this integra i learned alot. so i want to continue with that.

[Foolinaround]

Never hurts to ask.

http://www.team-integra.net/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=10&TopicID=131578

scroll down some,and almost all you questions will be answered.