550 cc injectors needed to safely run a 16g?

[themadhatter]

I purchased a ported Evo III 16G and I'm curious if 550 CC or larger injectors are needed.

are EVO VIII injectors a good idea or should I go directly to a set from RC or comparable?

I'm already running a supra fuel pump so that end is already covered.

thanks,
Ron

[subwrxkid]

you should be fine with that. Maybe a lil bigger.

[themadhatter]

that's what I was wondering, if I run bigger, I will have room to improve in the future. that said, I'd be happy with the vr4 anywhere over 350 awhp.

[subwrxkid]

that's what I was wondering, if I run bigger, I will have room to improve in the future. that said, I'd be happy with the vr4 anywhere over 350 awhp.
Yea, the more room to play the better you will be, this way you dont max the injectors out. It's much better to get a safer tune, than one that is not.

[Philly Boy]

So are you using stock VIII injectors? or stock VR4 injectors?

[koho2731]

I'd just go with 650cc to give your self plenty of head room They are 280 shipped from here http://www.fuelinjectorclinic.com/cart/mitsubishi.htm

[themadhatter]

stock vr4 injectors, the 16g isn't installed yet, that's why I'm asking for advice for what to do. :)

[ScoobyNubieToo!]

stock vr4 injectors, the 16g isn't installed yet, that's why I'm asking for advice for what to do. :)
Does any kind of self-modding technique exist for those injectors like for the WRX injectors? Might wanna look into that.....could save ya some bucks.

[themadhatter]

I'm not familiar with any but given that I'm a n00b to the 4g63, it doesn't surprise me.

what is this self modding trick that you're talking about?

I was thinking of the 560 CC EVO VIII injectors since they are cheap on ebay.

[ScoobyNubieToo!]

I'm not familiar with any but given that I'm a n00b to the 4g63, it doesn't surprise me.

what is this self modding trick that you're talking about?

I was thinking of the 560 CC EVO VIII injectors since they are cheap on ebay.
You can read about it here......
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=478921&page=1&pp=50&highlight=link+44s

[Safir]

It is my understanding that the DSMS all use a pretty standard bosch-style injector - the "cap" on wrx injectors is somewhat unique from what i've seen.

that being said, racetronix (www.racetronix.com) sells inexpensive delphi-style injectors in matched sets and in various sizes, both high and low impedance. I've got a set of low impedance 55lb units in my subaru for the time being.

[awdlaserbeam]

I have RC 550cc injectors that i was going to use to do an EVO III 16g that i am selling. I also sent you a PM

[the mike]

Go bigger, you can always scale back the duty cycle later if they are flowing too much.

[TROLL]

keeping in mind that this is the mitsubishi tech section, please only respond if you have solid tech input on the mitsubishi in question. injector/turbo combos vary from car to car and because of that there could be some confusion here.
i'm not trying to be an ass, just trying to make sure that themadhatter comes away from this thread with good info, not just really confused.
i'm sure any of the DSM guys would know since they share the same engine as you... either wait until they see this thread or maybe contact a couple by PM to see what they have to say.
bryan

[koho2731]

Go bigger, you can always scale back the duty cycle later if they are flowing too much.
That is if he has standalone if not you can adjust fuel pressure.


themadhatter: What kind of fuel managmet are you using?

[themadhatter]

That is if he has standalone if not you can adjust fuel pressure.


themadhatter: What kind of fuel managmet are you using?
apexi SAFC-2

that should be able to dial back anything if needed.

[noreaga0221]

550's are fine, Will be able to be controlled alot easier at idle and will be easier to tune. No need for 660's.


PS. I went 116mph on stock 450's with a dry nitrous kit. Its not about the size of the injectors but how you use them.

[Fastrick25]

How much boost you plan on running?

[themadhatter]

she currently runs at 18 psi on the 14b, figure the same or comparable with the 16g. the fact that the 16g flows more is where I'll be making my power.

the car currently pulls 282 awhp in it's current configuration.

[koho2731]

yes 550 will work, but if you plan on any real upgrade or just running more boost you will be above 80% duty cycle. I'd rather over build something the come up short. :wink:

[2point4DSM]

550s are fine. Back in the day Buschur use to run into the low 11s with 550s, race gas, and an HKS VPC. And after that many people have copied that setup and proven it can be done.

If you want to go with bigger than 550s then you really need to look into a better fuel computer as the SAFC alone will actually hurt you. Going with 660s or bigger requires a custom chip and eprom ecu at the very least. Problem is the SAFC tricks the ecu to seeing less air flow but the ecu then ramps up the timing which will cause knock and the ecu then aggressively takes that timing back out, plus more. You could probably get away with this at the track by retarding timing at the cam sensor a bit and running race fuel but on the highway the ecu tends to do crazy things which makes it really easy to blow a headgasket.

Quite frankly, I've never been a big fan of just using a SAFC. Don't get me wrong, people like Al Blaha have taken their DSMs (I think) into the 10s with just a SAFC. But it requires a lot of know-how and constant fiddling and possibly some other tricks cause it was never a setup that was easily duplicated.

From my experience, when I threw an HKS VPC on the car gained almost a 100whp compared to tuning with just a SAFC... (I was recently reminded by a buddy that I also added HKS cams at the same time... and not to mention my turbo was probably good for that and a lot more anyway). So for a car with a 16g and 550 injectors it is hard to beat HKS. They put a lot of time into setting it up well. DSMlink is another good option too cause it can possibly match the VPC's gains and some people tend to think it's actually a safer setup. Not to mention, DSMlink gives you the option to go with bigger injectors. But keep in mind that DSMlink is something that needs to be tuned where HKS gives you a product that has already been fine tuned with countless hours on the dyno.

As for injectors, our cars came with Nippon Denso injectors. They are still by far the best injectors out there. RC injectors are pretty good too and usually come pretty well matched. Be careful with other name brands cause I've seen people buy sets of injectors that were way off sometimes flowing 100cc difference btw the highest and lowest. This is especially true with 660s as I have seen at least close to a dozen sets with this problem.

[themadhatter]

considering that Densos are the way to go: so would I be safe running a set of 560s off an evo VIII?

thanks for the info on the safc, I'm really just thinking that the car should be done from an fuel/turbo point of view. I may upgrade the exhaust manifold and o2 housing later and I'm dropping a cat into the system now since winter is upon us...and I need an inspection!

[silver05bullet]

500CC should be more than enough, just get the thing tuned

[koho2731]

Here is one link to a threed that may help you decide what size injectors to use http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143043 I would still go with th 650's just to have head room for more boost later, 18psi is close to max with the 550's unless you crank the fuel pressure up.
Also the SAFC II is not that bad for tunning. Yes it is very basic and I would recomend the DSMlink over it any day, but there are different thing you can do to the SAFC II to help. The big thing is taking the throttle wire and hooking it to a MAP sensor to make it a "boosted SAFC II"

The stock injectors are 450cc there is little point to spending money to get 500cc injectors

[twenty5psi]

I'd go with 650's or higher..If I could do it all over again I'd buy 850's and chip the ECU if you don't have enough money for DSMlink..Get it over with so you do not have to buy injectors again,hopefuly..Scaling back injectors with just fuel pressure isn't going to quite cut it once they become too large..If you have an AFC,all you're doing is screwing with the timing maps and might possibley have really HORRIBLE idling..I didn't with 660's on my b16g/g50 now..I didn't have a afpr for the longest time and I was fine but not everyones car will react the same..

[the mike]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but I ran the stock EVO injectors AND 25PSI boost.

[IMPORTIMAGE]

you'll max out the 550's I have a set of FIC 650's that I used for a week. guaranteed to work... 199 shipped!

[themadhatter]

thanks for the offer, already scored a set of 650s. :)

[IMPORTIMAGE]

Themadhatter... I think I know you...
Back in the day I had a white m3...did a euro swap...engine + tranny. Friends with mark and ben over at rogue...I was bmwmpower1996 over on dtmpower.net
Im pretty sure only 1 person has themadhatter on every board...

and that sticker is what ben was giving out at the shop...

[2point4DSM]

550's are fine, Will be able to be controlled alot easier at idle and will be easier to tune. No need for 660's.

PS. I went 116mph on stock 450's with a dry nitrous kit. Its not about the size of the injectors but how you use them.

I completely agree with Joe, here.

I would personally get the injectors you bought flow tested just to see how closely matched they are.

Like I mentioned before the stock ECU will do a lot of weird things. At the very least get a chipped ecu and adustable FPR otherwise your car will tend to run very rich down low and then lean out up top with a lot of knocking when it is running rich and lean. This is not going to be something the SAFC will be able to tune well on its own.

Good luck with the 660s.

[IMPORTIMAGE]

I really think 660's are better than 450 or 550's
with a tuned ecu and fpr and all of my other mods, I was beyond what 650's can do on my setup. Ok yours isn't running as hard, but it gives you room for later.
the tuned ecu is a big step up. Thank god my friend is amazing with that stuff...

[themadhatter]

Themadhatter... I think I know you...
Back in the day I had a white m3...did a euro swap...engine + tranny. Friends with mark and ben over at rogue...I was bmwmpower1996 over on dtmpower.net
Im pretty sure only 1 person has themadhatter on every board...

and that sticker is what ben was giving out at the shop...
hey Josh, long time no see!

[awdlaserbeam]

Buying bigger injectors for later, would be like buying a huge turbo and running it at half boost because thats all you can support, but when you are ready for more boost it is available.

[IMPORTIMAGE]

well if you have the proper supporting mods, you can make that 16G use them ;) I dont like changing parts twice.

Ron, how you been?

[Driven]

Buying bigger injectors for later, would be like buying a huge turbo and running it at half boost because thats all you can support, but when you are ready for more boost it is available.

While with an AFC, this may be partially true, with any real engine management system it's far from correct. DSMLink allows virtually ANY size injector to run exactly like stock. I have 950's in my car right now on the T25 and I get over 30mpg on the highway. I plan on upgrading to 1600cc injectors in the near future, I should have gone with them from the start. You don't loose spool time or any other adverse affects when going with large injectors like you do with going to a large turbo. You're comparing apples to oranges.

PS Anyone looking for a set of 950's?

[2point4DSM]

I just went with a set of 1600s, too. Except I went with AEM :)

[Driven]

I just went with a set of 1600s, too. Except I went with AEM :)

Glad you finally got a real engine management system. I may go AEM in the not too distant future, I'll have to check out yours sometime to see if I like it though. Do you bring your car to the meets ever? Maybe we should take this to PM's

[themadhatter]

well if you have the proper supporting mods, you can make that 16G use them ;) I dont like changing parts twice.

Ron, how you been?

doing well, it's been way too long.

as for the galant, I did the 650s for the same reason you mentioned, I don't want to buy injectors again, for a long while.

what does a DSM Link sell for?

[koho2731]

565+shipping 0r 595 w/socketing and shipping.
www.dsmlink.com

[IMPORTIMAGE]

Ron, I have another....alternative...its cheaper ;)

pm sent

[themadhatter]

great idea man, I replied back to you and thanks for the tip. :)