engine swap vs turbo

[ketchup!]

Ok i've come to a crossroads for the future of my civic. Which is a better road to go engine swap(b16 or h22) or a turbo for my sohc vtec?

[OutOfStock]

Personally im planning on turboing my B18b. I figured why spend 2-3k on an engine swap for something like a B18c1 with 180hp when I could throw that money towards a building a turbo kit.

[D Money]

Ok i've come to a crossroads for the future of my civic. Which is a better road to go engine swap(b16 or h22) or a turbo for my sohc vtec?
my friend has a sohc vtec with custom turbo kit. It runs 13.6 on streets. On slicks estimated around high 12's. I say turbo the bitch!

[xEJ20x]

Engine swaps are costly and the time that you will be without a car is considerable. However, some people prefer the swap to a more powerful N/A car than using a turbo.

Although with a turbo build, the down time of your car will be days.
Motor swap will be a couple of weeks.

And I assume that you will be having a shop do the work. So figure about $5,000 to $7,000 for a B18C1 long block with everything that is needed. And then maybe around $2,000 for the shop's bill.

[2point4DSM]

For every 1 bar of boost the power gained is equivalent to adding another motor to your car. What this means is if you have a 2.0L motor and run 14.7 psi of boost then it effectively makes the motor act like a 4.0L motor. 29.4 psi is like running a 6.0L motor.

The reason 2.0L turbo 1g DSMs were right on par with 5.0L mustangs back in the day. So you will gain more power from boosting your motor than by increasing displacement a little bit.

[07BlackSS]

I have had my Civic for about 5 months now. I planned on having a Civic back in January in the begining of the year, so I pretty much did nothing but research my car for 7-8 months on what is better and everything. Here is what I summed up:

A lot of people that run NA cars usually run a B18c5 or an LS VTEC....Don't ask me why but those are the best engines. Usually because they have such high compression and High compression + A lot of boost = KABOOOM! so if you want a turbo motor...look below

There is usually no reason to buy a B16 (Si) or B18c1 (GS-R) cause for a pricey tag of usually 3 Grand or more for parts, enigine and labor....You only gain a measly 20 hp with the b16 and only 40hp with B18. Not really a big bang for the buck especially if your on a tight budget.

An H22 has a lot of problem converting into an EJ, EK, EG, car because you must lose the power stearing and AC for it to actually fit. Not to mention get a whole new trans and it never tends to fit. I have actually done a lot of research on these because I wanted one, and although they are cheaper than most engines to put in and has the most hp at 220 (i think) but there is a lot of customization that is needed for this plus the sacrafice of P/S and AC.

That comes to my last point Turboing a d16 does a lot more good than you know. Say you put together a nice turbo kit for $600-$800, and set the thing at 8 PSI, right there you will hit around 200 hp to the wheels and not have to sacrafice a lot of money which means more moeny for other things :mrgreen:. Plus if you ever blow your d16 you can easily pick one up at a junkyard for 300$ tops. When push comes to shove, if you have the money to do the swap then turbo then go for it. If you are on a tight budget then just turbo, plus boost is hella fun man!

Sorry for the long post guys, it's just that I see these questions often on Honda-Tech and Turbod16.com....And the true reason anyone swaps is because they can say they have a B series motor. PM if you want anything more!

[CHR!S]

An H22 has a lot of problem converting into an EJ, EK, EG, car because you must lose the power stearing and AC for it to actually fit. Not to mention get a whole new trans and it never tends to fit. I have actually done a lot of research on these because I wanted one, and although they are cheaper than most engines to put in and has the most hp at 220 (i think) but there is a lot of customization that is needed for this plus the sacrafice of P/S and AC.


not true i have seen ek's with h22 motors with power steering and a/c. you have to run the 4th gen a/c and i believe its the 4th gen power steering as well. you can also run a b-series tranny with a h22. if i was swapping id get a b18c1 because it has more torque than a b16

And I assume that you will be having a shop do the work. So figure about $5,000 to $7,000 for a B18C1 long block with everything that is needed. And then maybe around $2,000 for the shop's bill.

$7,000 for a gsr swap?!? my friend just sold his entire gsr swap for $2k. this is including engin, tranny, ecu, wiring harness, axles, motor mounts. i got a quote from impo last year on getting a gsr swap and they quoted me for $3700, out the door

[07BlackSS]

not true i have seen ek's with h22 motors with power steering and a/c. you have to run the 4th gen a/c and i believe its the 4th gen power steering as well. you can also run a b-series tranny with a h22. if i was swapping id get a b18c1 because it has more torque than a b16

This is true but it happens to be a big pain in the ass. I have seen many cars on Honda-tech that have these things done but if you ask any of them if it was worth it, they would all say no. Any swap, IMHO, is not really worth it just cause you dont get the hp for the moeny you put out. If you are rich and have it then why the hell not cause you can have someone do it, but if you want to have an efficient way of boosting power, then do just that....boost it!

EDIT: if you know how to install this **** and you can find the parts for cheap then this is also a very good route, but if you find any performance shop that will do any of these swaps for less that 3-4 grand (incl. everything) it probably won't be the most reliable one.

[D Money]

Engine swaps are costly and the time that you will be without a car is considerable. However, some people prefer the swap to a more powerful N/A car than using a turbo.

Although with a turbo build, the down time of your car will be days.
Motor swap will be a couple of weeks.

And I assume that you will be having a shop do the work. So figure about $5,000 to $7,000 for a B18C1 long block with everything that is needed. And then maybe around $2,000 for the shop's bill.
I disagree on this one. A b18c1 long block will go for around 1700. Do do the swap, most kids wont take it to a shop but rather honda friends. I know kids that swap motor, axles, ecu and have it running in 6 hrs. Now if you ask me 6 hours is nothing, thats like an up-pipe install on a wrx.

[07BlackSS]

I disagree on this one. A b18c1 long block will go for around 1700. Do do the swap, most kids wont take it to a shop but rather honda friends. I know kids that swap motor, axles, ecu and have it running in 6 hrs. Now if you ask me 6 hours is nothing, thats like an up-pipe install on a wrx.

I put that in my previous post, if you know the right people a b18c1 swap could cost 1500$ for everything including install...I wish I had the money cause I know I have the Honda friends :mrgreen:

[HatchSurfer3]

In my opinion I would boost the d-series. Everyone rags on them, "oh they're only SOHC blah blah blah". But a d16 is like a fat chick, everyone knocks ya for it but just wait till they see what she'll do for ya. But if you want to swap then I would recommend building an ls/vtec. Itll give you the combination of more hp plus the torque from the ls. Also price-wise itll probably be the most bang for your buck

[07BlackSS]

In my opinion I would boost the d-series. Everyone rags on them, "oh they're only SOHC blah blah blah". But a d16 is like a fat chick, everyone knocks ya for it but just wait till they see what she'll do for ya. But if you want to swap then I would recommend building an ls/vtec. Itll give you the combination of more hp plus the torque from the ls. Also price-wise itll probably be the most bang for your buck

Sounds like you have had some experiance with some fattys... :finga: lol

on topic: Trust me SOHC's have been known to see over 300 hp on low boost on a mildly built motor and some have seen over 400 with a GT35RS on a fully built motor!...they maybe ragged on but they can push some nice numbers.

[HatchSurfer3]

dude come on now ur mom isnt that fat, and yes the disco potato will get ya some nice numbers

[LSHatch]

You can simply run AC in an H22 powered Civic just by buying a mount. I had an H22 in an EG. I hated it.

Swap= More potential in the end
Turbo D series= Fun seeing peoples face when you beat them with a stock motor.

[KGParts]

I also would like to disagree on a swap taking weeks. They can usually be done in a half -to- one day considering you have all the right axles, mounts and shift linkage on hand before starting.

Me personally, I would say either way. What does your budget allow. Not everyone can afford a b18c5, but could afford to get nickel and dimed close to that amount over a period of time...

as Greddy 2000 said, if you kow the "right" people, a swap can be cheap. For me... the "sleep at night" is what would come at a price.

[MuddyREX]

I think Sav at Impo ran his SOHC motor into the 9s.

[D Money]

Sounds like you have had some experiance with some fattys... :finga: lol

on topic: Trust me SOHC's have been known to see over 300 hp on low boost on a mildly built motor and some have seen over 400 with a GT35RS on a fully built motor!...they maybe ragged on but they can push some nice numbers.
I dunno about that one man. Ill agree with the power your saying they might make. But a gt35r is way to big for the tiny single cam. That turbo takes alot of motor to just spool it, I dought the 1.6 litre can get it done.

[2point4DSM]

Nitrous can spool it... :)

[SexyScionTC]

I dunno about that one man. Ill agree with the power your saying they might make. But a gt35r is way to big for the tiny single cam. That turbo takes alot of motor to just spool it, I dought the 1.6 litre can get it done.

If you search on Turbod16.com, there is a guy named rota runing in the 10s with a fully built motor and a gt35rs...I think he said he is runing 21 psi and has about 420 hp... :eek: yeah I know i was shocked too man, I didn't realize SOHC's were that powerful!

[screamingdsm]

if your running a 35r,im hoping theres somekind of stand alone involved,and big injectors,in that case you should be able to work out a .63 a/r turbine housing and get full boost at 4200 or so,and thats a estimate,might be lower.Lag is a figure of speach.I mean if you try to lay into it in 4th gear at 2k its gonna lag,but thats why you have the option to down shift.It comes down to how much usuable rpm you have.I mean if boost comes on at 4200...where can you take the car out too,8 8500.Thats gives you around 4000 rpms of usuable power

[xEJ20x]

I put that in my previous post, if you know the right people a b18c1 swap could cost 1500$ for everything including install...I wish I had the money cause I know I have the Honda friends :mrgreen:

Not everyone has decent enough connections.
And I was saying $5,000 for the JDM B18C motor.

[capaGC8]

IMO you should never turbo a car that is NA from the factory, but since the D16 engine has such low compression and is very stout it would be a nice app for boost. i wouldnt plan on running anything more than 7-8psi on a stock block unless you don't care if it blows.

on the other hand, a nice NA motor making good power and maybe even a LSD would make a great daily driver that wouldnt give you the headaches a boosted NA car would. just think how much money you would be putting into the boosted car in order to keep it running and compare that the price of a low mileage, high HP NA motor swap that would run for a long time with no issues.

it's definitely going to cost you more than $600-$800 in the long run...

[xEJ20x]

Look into the latest Sport Compact Car magazine.
They talk about piecing together a junkyard turbo kit for a Civic.

[D Money]

If you search on Turbod16.com, there is a guy named rota runing in the 10s with a fully built motor and a gt35rs...I think he said he is runing 21 psi and has about 420 hp... :eek: yeah I know i was shocked too man, I didn't realize SOHC's were that powerful!
Ill make sure to get right on that!!!

[HatchSurfer3]

if your running a 35r,im hoping theres somekind of stand alone involved,and big injectors,in that case you should be able to work out a .63 a/r turbine housing and get full boost at 4200 or so,and thats a estimate,might be lower.Lag is a figure of speach.I mean if you try to lay into it in 4th gear at 2k its gonna lag,but thats why you have the option to down shift.It comes down to how much usuable rpm you have.I mean if boost comes on at 4200...where can you take the car out too,8 8500.Thats gives you around 4000 rpms of usuable power

anyone running more then like 5 lbs of boost should have upgraded injectors and new fuel management no matter what kind of turbo it is, even a little 15g

[07BlackSS]

Heres the deal. Anything over 5 psi on a stock d16 must have some kind of management unit (SAFC or VAFC are ok) and bigger injectors (DSM 450's are the favorite). What I am going to be runing is 10psi and when you get any higher than that, then it is suggested you go with a Stand Alone System, which I will be sporting. I have seen numerous times d16 engines runing 14 psi fine on a stock block(these were beatin on daily for years and still work ok... :eek: yeah i know its crazy what these things can withstand). The whole thing that makes this work is the low compression and a good tune. I know a good bit about this ****, but Igo4BMX has a little bit more info on this subject...So if you could back me up that would be great!

[2point4DSM]

IMO you should never turbo a car that is NA from the factory

I've argued against this many times when someone use to consider adding a turbo to a 1g DSM with a 2.0 motor. The NA version came with the exact same block, crank, rods, and heads as the turbo version. The difference is weaker, higher compression pistons, smaller injectors, different ecu, lack of piston oil squirters and cams. But adding a small turbo to one is relatively cheap and in the long run can benefit from much lower insurance premiums when compared to a turbo model.

Obviously, the turbo model will have a lot more potential. But sometimes those different parts get changed in the faster cars anyway. So why not start with a car with a cheaper vin.

Too bad there are no NA, AWD models or I would have gone that route a long time ago.

[awdlaserbeam]

if anyone is going to need injectors i have a set of 1g stock injectors laying around . . .

[07BlackSS]

Hey, civic boy if you want to turbo jump on these injectors, they are kinda hard to find at a cheap price. I got mine for 20$ and thats a very good price, you can usually find them for over 50$ on ebay or other spots.

[LSHatch]

IMO you should never turbo a car that is NA from the factory,


Tell that to the S2k making 500whp on a stock block.

Or the numerous GSR's running in the 400whp range.

[CHR!S]

Tell that to the S2k making 500whp on a stock block.

Or the numerous GSR's running in the 400whp range.

or a 700whp h22 powered ek that is also daily driven on lower boost

[HatchSurfer3]

yea and esmith from this board is puttin out very good numbers on his 03 si stock block...i dont remember exactly what, but he might be puttin out like around 300 whp, someone back me up on that tho

[CHR!S]

yea and esmith from this board is puttin out very good numbers on his 03 si stock block...i dont remember exactly what, but he might be puttin out like around 300 whp, someone back me up on that tho

im pretty sure it is 300whp. his car is truely badass even though its only has a turbo kit :)

[On Sale]

I think Sav at Impo ran his SOHC motor into the 9s.

in 2000 he had the worlds fastest SOHC honda.... so yea, im sure you can make a SOHC fast as balls . lol and if you want to, just ask sav what he did.

[capaGC8]

Tell that to the S2k making 500whp on a stock block.

Or the numerous GSR's running in the 400whp range.

or a 700whp h22 powered ek that is also daily driven on lower boost

and how many of them are daily drivers?

[LSHatch]

Every single one.

[igo4bmx]

For every 1 bar of boost the power gained is equivalent to adding another motor to your car. What this means is if you have a 2.0L motor and run 14.7 psi of boost then it effectively makes the motor act like a 4.0L motor. 29.4 psi is like running a 6.0L motor.

The reason 2.0L turbo 1g DSMs were right on par with 5.0L mustangs back in the day. So you will gain more power from boosting your motor than by increasing displacement a little bit.


i'd have to disagree Wil...
power from boost is primarily dependant on air flow.
I've seen a 300 whp LS motor make that power only on 8 lbs and then again Maurice's friend made 295 whp on 17 lbs of boost.

[igo4bmx]

and how many of them are daily drivers?


Geoff from full race has a daily driven civic that just dyno'd over 850 whp... but its actually a secret for now :wiggle:

[07BlackSS]

I've seen a 300 whp LS motor make that power only on 8 lbs and then again Maurice's friend made 295 whp on 17 lbs of boost.

Isn't that the because of the size of the turbo?

[igo4bmx]

Heres the deal. Anything over 5 psi on a stock d16 must have some kind of management unit (SAFC or VAFC are ok) and bigger injectors (DSM 450's are the favorite). What I am going to be runing is 10psi and when you get any higher than that, then it is suggested you go with a Stand Alone System, which I will be sporting. I have seen numerous times d16 engines runing 14 psi fine on a stock block(these were beatin on daily for years and still work ok... :eek: yeah i know its crazy what these things can withstand). The whole thing that makes this work is the low compression and a good tune. I know a good bit about this ****, but Igo4BMX has a little bit more info on this subject...So if you could back me up that would be great!

wrong...
any type of positive pressure will kick the MAP sensor CEL and the car will go limp...

you go really lean when in boost with a stock ecu too

safc and vafc are a bad idea on a honda for fuel management, since when you run boost down in low rpms in high gear, your tps is higher and timing is advanced.... KABOOM

there are several 300 whp stock motor d series... but not that many, and I consider them miracle motors...

lower compression is always a plus since you increase the room for "error" for bad fuel... bad timing...

[igo4bmx]

Isn't that the because of the size of the turbo?


actually in this case, both were running semi-similiar turbos, but the difference was, the guy running 300 whp on 8 lbs had a fully worked head by portflow....

LS heads are severe bottlenecks when it comes to shoving air down into the combustion chamber

[igo4bmx]

in honestly
it all depends on your goals and the money you have to play with....

do you want mild power? 200 whp? 300whp? 400 whp?
300-375 whp is the limit I believe on a built d series, while its been proven 1.8 b series motors can get up to 500-600 reliably, with piston, rods, a good fuel setup, and a good manifold and turbo

[07BlackSS]

actually in this case, both were running semi-similiar turbos, but the difference was, the guy running 300 whp on 8 lbs had a fully worked head by portflow....

LS heads are severe bottlenecks when it comes to shoving air down into the combustion chamber

Yeah I know when you boost you must have atleast the hack for it to work (as far as I know). Why are people using SAFC and VAFC and runing 8-10 psi on thier cars....I know it isn't the majority but some people are doin it...or am I just misinterepretting them?

By the wya, I really don't know much about the LS/LS-VTEC because I never really wanted that as an option. IGO4BMX, what do you think is the major downfall (besides having one cam ) to the D16 and boosting?

[igo4bmx]

Yeah I know when you boost you must have atleast the hack for it to work (as far as I know). Why are people using SAFC and VAFC and runing 8-10 psi on thier cars....I know it isn't the majority but some people are doin it...or am I just misinterepretting them?

By the wya, I really don't know much about the LS/LS-VTEC because I never really wanted that as an option. IGO4BMX, what do you think is the major downfall (besides having one cam ) to the D16 and boosting?

well
having one cam is an issue.. you can't really adjust cams effectivly like in a b series, besides shifting the power band...
second, d series motors have small bores, which is a problem since the sleeves literally shift under heavy cylinder pressures (thus the headgasket issues).
Also keep in mind the rod/stroke ratio is high (just like LS motors), which is why it makes alot of torque too. However too much torque and revving real high will destroy the sleeves (in which case you can get a sleeved motor)

[highmilehatch]

If you tune a car correctly and don't run half assed fuel systems like the hack, emanage, etc., you can make plenty of power on d-series engines. Here is a recent graph of a stock sleeve z6:

http://forums.evans-tuning.com/viewtopic.php?t=3083

Basically you have to ask yourself what you want out of the car. Are you trying to get down the 1/4mile in a certain amount of time? If that is the case, d or b can get you there. How fast you go depends on how much money you invest, who builts it and who tunes it. Daily driver? Either engine can make 300whp on stock blocks, pump gas, which really is plenty for a street car. The nice thing about D series stuff is that if you pop one, they're super cheap to replace. On another note, the guys over at Epic Tuning in Allentown have gone 12.04 @117 on a completely bone stock z6 in an EF hatch. Granted this was on slicks, but the car was only making 308whp/262 tq. So in the end, the choice is up to you.