GM/Chrysler Bailout - Not today

[TGilb2007]

President Obama today announced that GM and Chrysler will NOT be getting bailout money, until plans for reconstruction of the companies are "viable" according to Obama.

Here is the article:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29944834/



Basically, GM has 60 days to finalize a plan that the President and crew will approve of, before getting forced into a federally assisted bankruptcy plan is necessary. Chrysler has 30 days to get their plans together, and also, get the deal with Fiat set in stone, before they will be forced into Chapter 11.



Discuss:

[Elliott18t]

chysler is a joke anymore, they seem to care nothing more than to make money, not good products. I honestly don't see them doing well.

GM just needs to step it up a bit.

[TGilb2007]

chysler is a joke anymore, they seem to care nothing more than to make money, not good products. I honestly don't see them doing well.

GM just needs to step it up a bit.

I agree. The deal with Fiat probably benefits Chrsyler itself little, but could be HUGE for Fiat in getting back into the American market, when its stable enough again.

As for GM, if they trim the fat down, and get the UAW to actually be reasonable, I see them turning things around, and getting themselves together again.

[ndubz]

I actually really do like this plan alot. Its gonna force them to cut the bull**** decisions that have defined the US auto industry for years. And I love Obama's emphasis on making them Internationally competitive. That is something that our cars have lacked for decades and it needs to be fixed. The American auto industry is getting the Kick in the Ass it has needed for decades. I approve 100% :thumbup:

[SpEcRv9]

I actually really do like this plan alot. Its gonna force them to cut the bull**** decisions that have defined the US auto industry for years. And I love Obama's emphasis on making them Internationally competitive. That is something that our cars have lacked for decades and it needs to be fixed. The American auto industry is getting the Kick in the Ass it has needed for decades. I approve 100% :thumbup:

remember this?

http://www.tristatetuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72699&highlight=fiat

That means ferrari engineered parts for Chrysler performance cars. Bye bye vette and Mustang.

so what happened to all those ferrari parts that was gonna have chrysler back on the come up?

[fballman1987]

the only thing i dont like about obama is the 35+mpg law. i know it can be done but will seem to eliminate alot of V8 and performanced based cars. it may have an impact on the aftermarket. again just my opinion.

[CKxx]

the only thing i dont like about obama is the 35+mpg law. i know it can be done but will seem to eliminate alot of V8 and performanced based cars. it may have an impact on the aftermarket. again just my opinion.

If that's the only thing you don't like then you simply need to pay more attention. This is, of course, assuming your goal is to find more things you don't like about him.



Here's a fun one:
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3715/bailout.jpg

[coleycole]

I'm happy about this since going into bankruptcy now is pretty much the only way these companies can survive in the future.
As for Chrysler only being about making money and not good cars, well they wouldn't be in this mess if they were making money.

[fballman1987]

If that's the only thing you don't like then you simply need to pay more attention. This is, of course, assuming your goal is to find more things you don't like about him.



Here's a fun one:
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3715bailout.jpg

so where did i say i didnt like him? guess i cant have an opinion.

[TGilb2007]

the only thing i dont like about obama is the 35+mpg law. i know it can be done but will seem to eliminate alot of V8 and performanced based cars. it may have an impact on the aftermarket. again just my opinion.

That is an average, and though, its bad for the performance based cars, its a LOT better for not only the car companies, but for the earth as well.

The aftermarket will ALWAYS be around for performace modifications. Have you seen what people were able to do with the VW 2.0 motor?

[ndubz]

remember this?

http://www.tristatetuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72699&highlight=fiat



so what happened to all those ferrari parts that was gonna have chrysler back on the come up?

Yes I do remember that and I still stand by my statements there. Like I said there, Chrysler must survive first, then maybe it will happen. We are in the survival phase now.

[CleanNeon98]

remember this?

http://www.tristatetuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72699&highlight=fiat



so what happened to all those ferrari parts that was gonna have chrysler back on the come up?
:rotfl: I needed to read that again.

[poolmike]

Finally, Obamamama is doing the right thing. Let them hang. It is probably just a political move to make his administration look better after the AIG thing, and the bailouts will most likely come around anyway. Hopefully they will suffer and go to bankruptcy. Poor leadership is their own fault.

[SpEcRv9]

Yes I do remember that and I still stand by my statements there. Like I said there, Chrysler must survive first, then maybe it will happen. We are in the survival phase now.

but I thought you wanted them to cut bull**** decisions?....because that would be one of those bull**** decisions that needed to be cut.

[TGilb2007]

Finally, Obamamama is doing the right thing. Let them hang. It is probably just a political move to make his administration look better after the AIG thing, and the bailouts will most likely come around anyway. Hopefully they will suffer and go to bankruptcy. Poor leadership is their own fault.

Well, the Chrysler/Fiat deal is nearly official, MSNBC had something about it already today.

As for GM, 60 days and counting. I am sure though, they will think of how to many the company worth putting money into again. Cutting out the fat is the first step to that though. Get rid of a lot of the brands that aren't selling to well (Hummer is probably 1st), and try to work around FEWER brands.

[dragonfly2k3]

While i agree with trying to keep the companies in business, I especially agree with making them provide a plan for the money.

[enigma]

Government should stay out of business, period.

[CKxx]

so where did i say i didnt like him? guess i cant have an opinion.

You didn't say that you didn't like like. What I said, impliedly, is that I don't like him.

[poolmike]

Government should stay out of business, period.

Amen! What is this that I here about Obama canning the CEO of GM? I have to research that a little. That is just not right if it is true. Hopefully he just stepped down on his own.

[enigma]

Basically they did not liek what happened on his watch(lots of suv's and the like although that is not entirely his fault), and one of the stipulations to GM getting bailout money was that he would step down from his position. He is going to remain inside of the company, as the government does not want to pay his pension.

You on downsizedc.org?

[Protege v2.5]

so what happened to all those ferrari parts that was gonna have chrysler back on the come up?

Its called Chrysler will be putting its parts in to Fiats not the other way around. Look what happened with The Daimler-Chrysler merge, It only hurt Mercedes for this exact reason.

[poolmike]

You on downsizedc.org?

I just actually found that sight earlier today. I plan to join. I guess a donation is required. I'm cool with that.

[DaBombDiggidy]

to start the bankruptcy idea isnt bad for both companies actually to release the union's stranglehold that keeps their workers making 50+ to screw a fender on.

also i hope chrysler finds a way out because diamler just got done making a 4b12 which i would love to see srt turbo and put in some of those fiat hatches :cool:

[enigma]

Actually jackass they don't make that in a gross paycheck, it closer to 30.
the other 20-25 bucks goes to healthcare, pension, and company taxes.
Any job where you get health care, your paid amount from the company is higher than what is listed.
Healthcare ain't cheap bub, and those of us who have it, work for it, its called a "perk".
Whats also negotiated in the contracts is "lay-off times" where the employee agrees to work for XX months of the year, then be unemployed/unpaid while the factory is retooling. The extra bucks in the paychecks is to cover this yearly time off.

[poolmike]

Yes, I would like to see honest proof of the actual average pay of the UAW folks. As much as I hate unions, people throw numbers like $50-$80/hour around constantly without actual proof. If those numbers are true, then that is in fact a major part of the problem.

[Erik]

well, i like that obamanique is actually stepping up against these companies, instead of just handing check after check. Im all for laisse-faire(sp, its been a while) but i feel like these companies actually could use it here--another force to keep their checks in balance. We will see what happens, i guess. regardless of how much we bitch, the obamanator will step in.

[The Captain]

Good Read - http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/31/business/31assess.html?em

[Erik]

out of that reading, which was a good reading, im beginning to feel that the US should really stop their development of everyday cars. As that women said, GM, secifically, has been "2 years behind the curve." I personally feel that that is not only critical for GM, but rather much of the US auto industry. It is beyond clear that foreign cars have successfully flooded our market and have beaten the US auto industry in fuel economy, slow depreciation value, and reliability. Of course, our higher end cars are doing fairly well. and i mean fairly well in the loosest way possible. vettes arent bad cars at all. mustangs (although over rated :mrgreen:) do sell, ect ect. But chevy, ford, pontiac, ect.'s low-end, everyday vehicles are just simply being dwarfed by the imports across the board. Maybe im being critical. I think its about time for much of the US auto industry to downsize, unfortunately.

After doing some math, I figured the average of the top five American cars gets 27.4 mpg in the city and 33.2 mpg on the highway, while the average of the top five Japanese cars get 46.2 mpg in the city and 49 mpg on the highway. This equates to 68% better gas mileage in the city and 48% better gas mileage on the highway for Japanese cars.
source: http://www.dailyfueleconomytip.com/fuel-efficient-vehicles/american-vs-japanese-gas-mileage-comparison/



with that being said though, there is the loss of jobs. Maybe these companies should focus on there sport line of vehicles? focus on creating something like public trans vehicles? These kind of things can keep those jobs, or atleast most of them, without hurting too much. IF those companies went along with public trans, would the government need to run that or can it stay "independent." IMO, seems like they have no choice regardless of which route they take. Obamanique wants in.

This is what i took from the reading + my rant.

[The Captain]

Yeah, i agree. If we're going to take the lead again in auto sales, the only possible way is with an alternative fuel source and I find it REALLY hard to believe that if we focus our energies on that, that we couldnt have something up and running in a few years.

****, we built the first nuke in a few years when we devoted ourselves to it. We cant get something to efficiently and cleanly run our cars?!

Enough dedication to the oil companies and more towards what we REALLY need.

[Elliott18t]

diesel runs efficiently now and is clean(now)... just no one wants it.

[The Captain]

and it's based off of petroleum...i want out of petroleum.

[Elliott18t]

and it's based off of petroleum...i want out of petroleum.

so you dont like plastics either?
Oil is used for MANY things. It will be extremely difficult to get out of.. Ill admit I like using petroleum as a fuel source but I believe they could do alot better with it. I believe them saying they know how much oil their is exactly is a joke,imo, Granted it is a not an infinate source. e85 uses about 30% more fuel to run correctly... thus making cost of a bunch of other things go up.. Hydrogen is expensive as **** to generate into a useful source.. Electric cars? We all know about electrical gremlins in cars now.. just think about it then...

[The Captain]

I know oil is in everything...but i dont want it powering our cars.

I don't know what exactly the alternative would be...but i'm certain if our government devotes the resources necessary, we could easily develop something else.

I'm looking for a long-term solution here...not some patchwork that might save our auto manufacturers for a few more years.

[enigma]

Energy wise, the options are not limitless.
Alternative energy sources cannot be "wished" or "hoped" into being, otherwise cold fusion would have happened a long time ago.

[poolmike]

I know oil is in everything...but i dont want it powering our cars.

I don't know what exactly the alternative would be...but i'm certain if our government devotes the resources necessary, we could easily develop something else.

I'm looking for a long-term solution here...not some patchwork that might save our auto manufacturers for a few more years.

I think the opposite. I wish the gov't would step out of the way. Instead they slow the innovation process down by feeding the big 3.

[Erik]

the only issue with finding an alternative fuel source, is that they would need to change the entire set up of vehicles, then either mass produce vehicles with the new fuel setup, as well as provide the old way. It would take years, or even decades at this point to make the switch away from oil. Im sure what the scientists are trying to do, is find a way to run an alternative fuel within the same engines that are on the road without causing more damage than what gasoline (or the two mixed) does. Once they find this miracle substance, they need to road test it, pass it by regulations and have fit or exceed standards (these three 'catagories' suming up a lot), then design and mass produce the pumps for stations to utilize. Along with that, transportation needs to looked at, refineries/factories need to be taken into consideration, ect ect ect ect ect. Unfortortunately, i do not see a shift any time soon. Im with you cap'n, i want off of this damn foreign substance...i just dont see it happening in an effective or efficient manner any time soon :(

[ndubz]

I think its time they put that hyper drive system they found on the Roswell Saucer to good use. :)

[DaBombDiggidy]

whatever they "actually" make is hurting the company, becuase studies have shown that their direct labor costs raise the cost of every vehicle to meet some kind of respectable profit about 5k...


"""The current veteran UAW member at GM today has an average base wage of $28.12 an hour, but the cost of benefits, including pension and future retiree health care costs, nearly triples the cost to GM to $78.21, according to the Center for Automotive Research."""

"""So not only do they make a substantial amount of money for doing basically unskilled factory work, they receive a substantial benefits package including a pension. I didn't even know people still got pensions. I cannot imagine making $28 an hour to work on an assembly line and not have to put one single penny of that money into a 401K for my retirement."""

it takes more skinizles to work at walmart

[enigma]

I'd rather have a guaranteed pension than a 401K anyday.
A 401k was developed as another place for people with high yearly income to shelter their wealth from taxes, until a time when their yearly income way down to a lesser amount.
Companies jumped onto 401k's because they did not have to maintain a "bank" of sorts on their books, making room for fewer accountants.
Most 401k's are very dependent on the whims of the stock market, which is not a wise place to "set and forget" money. Any real financial MONEYMAKER, not advisor/expert/jo shclib with a college degree will tell you that.
Realistically, you would be better off if you took the money from a 401k and put it into a IRA, long term CD's, or a real no-**** savings account, and not touched it.
The interest would be steady(potentially not as high), but you would not have to worry about passive losses.

[DaBombDiggidy]

when did i say 401ks were better??? dont think i did and all of that is true but my question stands... your bolting a fender on or an exhaust hanger all day. why do you deserve a pension? its like people who complain walmart (except obviously they make an absorbent amount of money for nothing) doesnt pay them anything, go get an education n find a real job. the whole situation is just a huge pep peev of mine.

in the end my point is these people are the source of the problem. they make a killing doing nothing making the big 3 produce sub-standard, corners cut cars, because they are trying to lower other costs to make profit off their product because the unions have got them by the nut sack. i mean have you seen what they produce over seas? not even performance wise its just better products. and it could be even better if their overseas operations wernt trying to cover for their domestic losses

[AristoSan]

They need to drop their 5 worst selling cars asap and concentrate on what sells..

[The Captain]

lulwuuut?! But that makes business sense!! We need more pontiac aztecs!

[DaBombDiggidy]

i say they bring back geo :cool: lol

[terrorcel]

when did i say 401ks were better??? dont think i did and all of that is true but my question stands... your bolting a fender on or an exhaust hanger all day. why do you deserve a pension? its like people who complain walmart (except obviously they make an absorbent amount of money for nothing) doesnt pay them anything, go get an education n find a real job. the whole situation is just a huge pep peev of mine.

in the end my point is these people are the source of the problem. they make a killing doing nothing making the big 3 produce sub-standard, corners cut cars, because they are trying to lower other costs to make profit off their product because the unions have got them by the nut sack. i mean have you seen what they produce over seas? not even performance wise its just better products. and it could be even better if their overseas operations wernt trying to cover for their domestic losses

+100000000000000000000.

They are overpaid as **** for the unskilled labor that they provide and then they bitch about the possibility of their wages getting lowered? They have it better than most americans in-terms of retirement, healthcare, **** even their hourly wage is high. God that makes me mad.

[Elliott18t]

lulwuuut?! But that makes business sense!! We need more pontiac aztecs!

no thanks. Id rather not throw up in my car everyday..:lol: