Rodder's STi aka Danas old car

[RyanG]

a lot of people have been wondering what has been up with this car so here goes.

Andy brought the car to us suspecting of low compression in cyl 4. We did a compression and leak down test and found that #4 was definitely low and most likely had a broken ringland.

Andy dropped the car off and we got to work asap. We got the old motor torn down and the brand new stock shortblock built back up in just a days time.

I decided to pull the #4 piston out of the old shortblock to see what actually happened as there was zero evidence on top of the piston.

here goes :D
the red arrows (my sick drawing skills) are cracks. aka broken
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/sidewayzrs/P1010376-1.jpg
old shortblock
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/sidewayzrs/P1010378.jpg
yay new wrinkle red vc's and new motor :)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/sidewayzrs/P1010382.jpg
poor thing
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/sidewayzrs/P1010383.jpg

[lagos]

Nice work. You sure do know your subarus!
Wouldn't it have been cheaper to just replace the one ring land then for him to buy a new shortblock?

[TurboTagTeam]

Detonation?

[lagos]

Detonation?

Killing ringlands and headgaskets since the invention of the turbo charger. :thumbup:

[RyanG]

Nice work. You sure do know your subarus!
Wouldn't it have been cheaper to just replace the one ring land then for him to buy a new shortblock?

we could have dropped in a set of pistons, but at the time didn't know what happened internally. He is kind of on a time crunch as he would like to actually drive the car for once :)

A new shortblock was the best option
Detonation?
bingo :(

[igo4bmx]

damn did he buy the car with #4 like that?

[TurboTagTeam]

we could have dropped in a set of pistons, but at the time didn't know what happened internally. He is kind of on a time crunch as he would like to actually drive the car for once :)

A new shortblock was the best option

bingo :(


Did the heads have little pit marks on them? Like around the valves? That's normally how I tell how bad it was.

[wgknestrick]

Unless he changed anything with the tune or the amount of boost he runs, be prepared to do the same thing again shortly. Just because you now take the Valtrex doesn't mean you can tell people you don't have Herpes.

I am certainly not criticizing just trying to be helpful.

[RyanG]

Bill you know I always value your insight :)


Yes he bought the car like this. No we don't know why it happened.

2 guesses.

1- the car was tuned on meth, the tank is empty
2- the tank was filled with anything other than 93

the pump gas tune wasn't aggressive at all. the meth tune on the other hand........ :P

and obviously the car will get a retune. He drove it home and pretty much the next day called me up asking for advice as he thought the car was acting strange.

For the average person the car drove and moved pretty good, but being I know what the car felt like at peak power I knew something was up.

[OMGz Turbo]

So was the car done for before the purchase?? Or afterwards?

[Ender81]

Was there any damage to the shortblock?

[Honest_Bob]

Was there any damage to the shortblock?

I smell scavenger... :-p

I saw this yesterday. I want a 2.5 shortblock. :cry:

[Ender81]

I smell scavenger... :-p

I saw this yesterday. I want a 2.5 shortblock. :cry:

Damn straight you do lol. I wants me my hybrid lol

[rodder]

wow stock STi pistons ****ing own. :rolleyes:

I'm gonna have the car tuned even more conservatively than the first time this go-round as I couldn't really care less about numbers. I just want a fast, reliable daily driver with smooth power delivery.

it was kinda weird as my first inclination after noticing something didn't seem right was to pull the plugs. No sign of det on any of them. I only did the compression test for ****s and giggles since I already had the plugs out and sure enough, low #4.

My plans for the original short block are probably going to include having the cylinders honed and dropping in a set of forged pistons with new rings. I'll keep it as a back up short block long enough for the new motor to gain my trust. Once I've beat on the car for a little while without having it blow up again I will probably sell the short block. If it does pop again I plan on swapping in the forged short block, selling the car and starting over with a bone stock STi. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

lastly, big thanks to Ryan and Adam at Area1320. Your skills, knowledge and reassurance helped keep me from putting a few mags worth of .45 into this thing a couple weeks ago. :lol:

[rodder]

Was there any damage to the shortblock?

forgot to ask you that Ryan. How does the cylinder wall on #4 look? Any damage?

[rodder]

and for the triple post...

check out my new sig! :mrgreen:

EDIT: uh, it's not working...

[rodder]

maybe now?

oh, and how'd I end up with wrinkle red valve covers?

[Renegade_]

wow stock STi pistons ****ing own. :rolleyes:
Hey, stock STi pistons are the ****. They can hold over 500whp with the right turbo and tune (skully @ rs25 has proven it a bunch of times), just something happened here which caused a nice little bang and ****ed up the ringlands.

Looking good, good to see another STi back on the road thanks to Ryan. How much whp was the meth tune putting down...?

[rodder]

Looking good, good to see another STi back on the road thanks to Ryan. How much whp was the meth tune putting down...?

thanks buddy. It put down 432 to the wheels on the meth. 383 on pump.

[Gorilla Unit 33]

is it weird the dana chick doesnt even post anymore? or is it just me?....

Anyways glad to see your finally getting it back together.

[scutzi128]

sucks to hear especcially since I was looking at this car

[Buster]

Lesson #1 Compression tests are the last breath of subaru motors. Ever notice how many guys say they are going to check the compression and find it fuxord lol. Theres no real connection but coincidence


it was kinda weird as my first inclination after noticing something didn't seem right was to pull the plugs. No sign of det on any of them. I only did the compression test for ****s and giggles since I already had the plugs out and sure enough, low #4.

[RyanG]

maybe now?

oh, and how'd I end up with wrinkle red valve covers?

haha :P Something I figured Id try out :D If you're not digging it, I can take it off :P


oh, and the cyl walls look just fine. Not one score mark

[Honest_Bob]

haha :P Something I figured Id try out :D If you're not digging it, I can take it off :P


oh, and the cyl walls look just fine. Not one score mark

haha, thats how my engine bay got camo'd. :-p

[Ender81]

Rodder pm me a price if you decide you want to sell the shortblock, I might be interested.

[rodder]

haha :P Something I figured Id try out :D If you're not digging it, I can take it off :P

oh, and the cyl walls look just fine. Not one score mark

leave em, I think they might look good with all the other w red under the hood. :cool:

that's awesome the walls didn't get damaged.

[rodder]

Ryan, clutch and flywheel will be here tuesday. I'll bring em by as soon as they show up.

[Jeffros Spec V]

Wow you guys work fast!


My hybrid build took me a month ahahah :)

[OMGz Turbo]

OKAY AGAIN. Was it like this prior to purchase or no?

And LJ, I too noticed that.

[rodder]

whoa, no need to yell.

reading > you

Yes he bought the car like this. No we don't know why it happened.

the post right above your first one.

[OMGz Turbo]

whoa, no need to yell.

reading > you



the post right above your first one.

damn thread>me haha i usually skim when i read must have missed that.

So has it been led to believe this is the reason she sold the car?

[RyanG]

^^ doubt it. Just cruising around you wouldn't realize anything was really wrong. The car acts kinda normal lol.

I don't want to place the blame on ANYONE, just an unfortunate event that is being handled swiftly

[Dana]

damn thread>me haha i usually skim when i read must have missed that.

So has it been led to believe this is the reason she sold the car?

Not at all. i told andy when he first offered me a price that i wasnt gonna sell it. i had no reason to and would have been very happy keeping it. the car ran Perfect the entire time, other than the backfiring, which i was told that it was doing that since its was about 100 out the day it got tuned and if i drove it on cold days it ran rich and shot flames. i never once used the meth, so i have no idea how it ran on that tune. and i dont post on here since i have a bone stock m coupe. i have no idea why or how anything happened, i feel bad for andy :( and ryan who built the car.

[Ender81]

I told andy when he first offered me a price that i wasnt gonna sell it. i had no reason to and would have been very happy keeping it.

Ummm yeah except you had a for sale thread asking 30K for it because your mother was sick or something.

[rodder]

yay this car is now blown up for the second time... not blaming anyone but myself this time though.

I did find out for sure that the car was already blown up before I bought it. I hope Dana sleeps well at night.

[Subie_sleeper]

Look on the bright side though. You're dealing with a shop that will take care of and work with you. It might be tough to get in sometimes , but 1320 is worth the wait. I've broken parts because of the mods that were done and the fact that I beat on my ride more than I should , but NOTHING Ryan or Adam have done to my car has failed or had to be re-done. Thats says a lot since making STI and WRX parts work on the Baja is a pain in the ass to say the least.

[rodder]

yeah, Ray (turbo tek) has even personally offered to drive up to my house and help me pull/disassemble the motor.

Most likely will end up with CP pistons this time around.

btw, I see you've been added to the list of unhappy customers of "the shop that shall remain nameless" in DE.

[Ender81]

yay this car is now blown up for the second time... not blaming anyone but myself this time though.

I did find out for sure that the car was already blown up before I bought it. I hope Dana sleeps well at night.

Sorry to hear that. I always like to be wrong when I suspect that people suck lol. Hey just think of it as her living up to that myspace name in her signature right.

[OMGz Turbo]

yay this car is now blown up for the second time... not blaming anyone but myself this time though.

I did find out for sure that the car was already blown up before I bought it. I hope Dana sleeps well at night.

Like i said before

[peteyturbo]

so what happened to it this time around??

[wgknestrick]

Unless he changed anything with the tune or the amount of boost he runs, be prepared to do the same thing again shortly. Just because you now take the Valtrex doesn't mean you can tell people you don't have Herpes.

I am certainly not criticizing just trying to be helpful.


yay this car is now blown up for the second time... not blaming anyone but myself this time though.

I did find out for sure that the car was already blown up before I bought it. I hope Dana sleeps well at night.


Hate to say I told you so......

[rodder]

Hate to say I told you so......

the car's had 2 re-tunes since it blew up the first time when Dana had it. First from Andy, which I wasn't happy with at all, and the 2nd from Ray at turbotek. I'm not even running the utec anymore.

At this point it's looking like a fueling issue. #4 cyl is showing seriously low compression again.

[Subie_sleeper]

Good luck man. I hope it all works out for you.

[Ender81]

the car's had 2 re-tunes since it blew up the first time when Dana had it. First from Andy, which I wasn't happy with at all, and the 2nd from Ray at turbotek. I'm not even running the utec anymore.

At this point it's looking like a fueling issue. #4 cyl is showing seriously low compression again.

You aren't going to move on to say that you replaced the Utec with Open Ecu or something right.

[rodder]

yes, for some reason the UTEC was causing misfire codes in all cylinders. It was also giving me funky hesitations. So Ray tuned it with romraider and I got rid of the utec. It drove a million times smoother until it blew up again. Why do you ask?

[RyanG]

:(


poor STi

[rodder]

btw, here's what the plug looks like that came out of cylinder 4. Ground strap was smashed right into the electrode. I actually opened the gap back up and put it back together and the car is running relatively well considering #4 is at half the compression it should be. (Of course I'm not driving it around, just put it back together so I could move it around in my driveway) Next step is a leakdown test to make sure there's no damage to valves/valve seals/guides and then it's time for another tear down and rebuild. Definitely getting forged pistons this time.

http://www.andywdesign.com/misc_images/IMG_1671.jpg

http://www.andywdesign.com/misc_images/IMG_1674.jpg

The car was knocking after Andy's tune and I drove it for a while like that. It also had a fuel leak at the injectors that we noticed at Ray's. Probably the combination of detonation from Andy's tune hammering away at the stupid hyperutectic stock pistons plus a drop in fuel pressure at WOT and bang... :(

[RayArroyo]

ok well here is what happened , car came to me because the owner had it tuned elsewhere and was stressing that his car was knocking so bad the check engine light was blinking under boost. the shop that tuned the car before me suggested that he removed his utec and drive the car with the stock ecu only and no utec because they believed the utec was causing the knock. when the car arrived at my shop it arrived pretty unhealthy, idling very rough, setting off missfire codes etc. so i went out and logged the car and noticed a dangerous amount of knock.

i proceeded to tell the owner that i would fix his issues however we could not run alot of boost or timing since the car was knocking for so long i didnt want to stress the car anymore. car was tuned to 11.3 afrs tapering to 10.9 under boost. boost was set at 20 psi. as we were tuning the car would still act a little rough under idle, and i noticed a fuel smell, indicating there may have been a fuel leak, i proceeded to tell the customer to take it easy until he identifies where the leak is coming from and corrects it.

heres the conditions the car came in on

stock ecu with stock map and no utec, as per the prior shop according to the customer.

car was tuned with alkie, car came in with a non functional alkie kit

customer stated car had been knocking for some time and check engine light blinking.

rough idle and missfires



car left

cruising like a dream, no knock 20 psi and after finding the rough idle issue to be a leaky injector, i adviced the owner to take it easy

[JET02WRX]

I know i'm only puttering around with a 16g, but man, it makes me want to leave my laptop hooked up and log everytime I drive, and also make a set of home made det-cans.

Hope you have better luck next time man!

[RayArroyo]

btw rodder, is a cool dude hahaha we had a blast

[rodder]

yeah, I was pretty stupid for hammering on it when I knew there was a fuel leak. Had some buddies in the car and did the stupid show off "look how fast my car can go down this on-ramp" thing. Hence no hard feelings toward Ray... ESPECIALLY since he has offered to personally help me pull and disassemble the motor.

and just a little correction... The car was only tuned on the meth when Dana owned it. When Andy tuned it for me we didn't even bother with the meth. Just did a pump tune that I specifically asked to be nice and conservative. What I got instead was a car that started knocking under WOT almost immediately after leaving the shop and would stall, idle pig rich and generally drive like crap.

[JET02WRX]

Out of curiousity, what injectors are you running rodder?

[rodder]

they were PE 850s... wanna buy em? They're for sale. :lol:

I will most likely be going with DW 750s this time around.

[JET02WRX]

they were PE 850s... wanna buy em? They're for sale. :lol:

I will most likely be going with DW 750s this time around.

Haha... no. I was just curious because of what you mentioned about the pig rich idle and knocking on WOT... one of the things that can cause that is improper injector latencies and scaling. Another thing is MAF scaling. Was just thinking in my head if that may have been your problem initially before Ray retuned it for you.

[rodder]

who knows... if you really want to know how I feel I wish I'd have gone with Ray from the start. Andy mentioned to me that Dana paid him to make a number and he wasn't happy with the meth tune at all but tuned it aggressively to hit the number for the customer. This is probably what blew it up the first time. IMO that's just bad business. You explain to the customer that hitting the number will most likely lead to the car blowing up and I'm sorry but I won't do that.

Then during a phone call I made expressing my displeasure with the car knocking after the second tune and short block I was told "a little bit of knock is OK". :roll::bigeek:

[Ender81]

yes, for some reason the UTEC was causing misfire codes in all cylinders. It was also giving me funky hesitations. So Ray tuned it with romraider and I got rid of the utec. It drove a million times smoother until it blew up again. Why do you ask?

Putting together what you are saying and what Ray said I am betting that the shop before Ray suggested you disconnect the Utec as a way to try and make it look like your problems weren't their fault. I also am really not a fan of flash tunes on a built motor. If you are dedicated to spending the money then consider a Hydra.

[RayArroyo]

Putting together what you are saying and what Ray said I am betting that the shop before Ray suggested you disconnect the Utec as a way to try and make it look like your problems weren't their fault. I also am really not a fan of flash tunes on a built motor. If you are dedicated to spending the money then consider a Hydra.

jet his car did not have a built motor, and as for tuning built motors on a stock ecu , i have yet to have an issue doing so. the reason why rodder was able to pull his utec with no tune to the stock ecu and have a driving car is because his injectors, along with a bigmaf kind of canceled theselves out yielding in decent enough fuel trims for normal driving, however under boost different animal.

[rodder]

Hydra wont work as this is SUPPOSED to be a 100% reliable daily driver and needs to be able to pass state inspection every year.

At this point I'm considering rebuilding it with forged pistons, getting it running good and selling it. I'm starting to think it's just too much car for my needs. I think I'd be better off with a stock STi that still has warranty coverage. I already have another car to get my straight line horsepower fix. My original plan was to just find a bone stock STi and seriously mod up the suspension. Maybe go with an exhaust and a tune when the warranty runs out but nothing too crazy under the hood.

[JET02WRX]

jet his car did not have a built motor, and as for tuning built motors on a stock ecu , i have yet to have an issue doing so. the reason why rodder was able to pull his utec with no tune to the stock ecu and have a driving car is because his injectors, along with a bigmaf kind of canceled theselves out yielding in decent enough fuel trims for normal driving, however under boost different animal.

That was Ender that said that about the built motor.... not me.

[RayArroyo]

That was Ender that said that about the built motor.... not me.

thats what i meant lmao

[JET02WRX]

So you are saying the MAF scaling and Injector scaling were wacked though? He just got lucky and they worked against each other somewhat?

[RayArroyo]

yes as the stock ecu was untouched and the utec was removed, the injectors were tuned via the utec. here is what happens say you have 850cc injectors, and a big maf
well because of the diameter of the big maf housing increases, the car demands more fuel so if you put 850cc injectors, it will compensate for the larger maf however this does not mean is perfect but will cause the car to be drivable. of course under boost is a different story.

in fact ill share a little secret, when i tuned my car previously with a blow thru i left my injector scaling stock, changed the latencies and tuned minimal via maf :) to see what would happen and the end result was quite astonishing , yielded in a much smoother driving car than my usual blow thru tune consisting of scaling the injectors and tweaking the maf, and gave me lower maf g's

[Ender81]

jet his car did not have a built motor, and as for tuning built motors on a stock ecu , i have yet to have an issue doing so. the reason why rodder was able to pull his utec with no tune to the stock ecu and have a driving car is because his injectors, along with a bigmaf kind of canceled theselves out yielding in decent enough fuel trims for normal driving, however under boost different animal.

My mistake you are correct, I should have said highly modded. As for the stock ECU we all have our opinions about it based on our own excperiences. I'll not argue because our excperiences are very different and we'll not agree on anything but to disagree lol. My main question however was whether or not it was the Utec or the tune on it that was causing the issues. My money is still on the the tune being the issue, not the Utec and that the other shop was trying to blame the unit for their own mistakes.

[TROLL]

scaling your injectors vs scaling your maf... its all the same. scaling the injectors is a global adjustment and the maf is a local adjustment.
the 'proper' way to do it is to scale them both and i'm not sure why you wouldnt, but you certainly dont have to. you can just scale one around the other as long as you dont max out your voltage range.
i dont know where the whole 'unplugging the utec' idea came into play or if you actually did that but god damn thats a terrible idea. running on a stock ecu with no engine management? eek.
and ray, did you not have enough time to look into the leaky injector? cant tune a car very well with an injector leak so as far as i'm concerned that should have been taken care of before the car was driven any more.

either way, i feel for you man. you havent had a very good subaru experience here, that sucks. i say put the car back to stock (or at least stock motor) and sell it, or build it and keep it. no real sense in building it for someone else. its unlikely that anyone would pay more for all the extra dollars you'd be spending on it (unless maybe just some affordable drop in pistons since all the other labor is necessary anyway).

Oh and one other thing... a Hydra is not better than a UTEC is not better than a RomRaider reflash. They are all tools to accomplish a goal. They each do things differently, but one is not better than the other. They each have pros and cons and some things each does a little better, but "built motors should have Hydras" just isn't accurate. I haven't spared any expense on my Subie and at any price point I prefer my RomRaider reflash over every other option out there. I'll continue to run it now and if I had a rotated turbo or a built motor I would run it then too.

[car optics]

i was completely out of time, it was bout 12 midnight

[rodder]

I'll try to clear up the utec, no tune, stock ecu stuff for you guys...

When I first bought the car it was flashing the cruise light since the CEL had been disabled by the utec. I didn't even think anything of it at first simply cause I didn't know any better but it later turned out to be codes in all 4 cyls for misfires. This was right around the time I realized the first motor was blown.

After the first rebuild it continued to throw misfire codes but never showed any real signs of actual missing. Ryan suspected the light flywheel he installed but I was convinced it had something to do with the ECU, tune or utec, mostly since it had misfire codes stored before I ever even drove it home from Dana's on that first fateful day.

During the first tune with Andy we tried to pinpoint what was causing the codes and came up with nothing, but he was "able" to tune the car anyway to 360 whp @ 21psi. After deciding I had had enough of not being able to use my cruise control and talking with Andy I decided to pull out the utec and run completely on the stock ecu because I wanted to rule out the utec as the source of the misfire codes. Andy explained to me exactly what Ray said above, which made perfect sense to me - the big MAF basically compensates for the big injectors so the car actually ran decent at cruise. I was VERY careful while the UTEC was out to stay completely out of boost as I knew full well that all the stuff on this car plus no tune under boost could easily pop the brand new motor. So after driving around on the stock ecu for over a week with no codes at all I had found the culprit of the misfire codes - the stupid utec.

The only options Andy offered me were buying an accessport or paying for an ecutek license and retuning. They no longer road tune OR open source tune. That was the end of the line of a string of stupid crap so I gave up with them and brought the car to Ray for it's current open source tune.

About a week later the motor blows for the 2nd time and here we are...

[rodder]

and ray, did you not have enough time to look into the leaky injector? cant tune a car very well with an injector leak so as far as i'm concerned that should have been taken care of before the car was driven any more.

yeah, I was just wanting to get home at that point. Ray said to either take out the extra o-ring or swap to DW injectors and go over the entire fuel system for leaks. After that he said to bring it back down for a free retune.

Ray went above and beyond the call of duty that night imo.

[TROLL]

Ok I agree with being able to drive the car temporarily and gently on the stock ecu with big injectors and big maf together. I didn't realize thats how you went about things.
I couldn't conclude by your post if you know this already but it is important to know how your engine management works so you dont misuse it. Here is how the UTEC works: You can choose to turn your CEL off if you want. However if you have more than one code, or an urgent code, your Cruise light will flash. Its important to know this and to respond to it without delay to make sure there are no serious issues.
Also, the UTEC is set up to flash the CEL whenever its knocking. Doesnt have to be big or small knock, it just flashes whenever it senses knock. Its actually a great design and one of the things I miss about it. Again, if its flashing you should look into it before driving your car further.
You are able to set the sensitivity of the UTECs knock sensor, so maybe it needed to be adjusted to be slightly less sensitive. I can't see how the UTEC would be throwing false misfire codes though for any other reason.

Really hoping the third time is a charm... these damn cars are expensive and frustrating, you'd hope that every now and again we'd get some enjoyment out of them.

[JET02WRX]

They no longer road tune OR open source tune.

No road tune to verify the dyno tuning? Wahh? Huhh? :bigeek::eek::bigeek::(

[TROLL]

Thats not what he said... lets not take it out of context...

[Ender81]

but "built motors should have Hydras" just isn't accurate. I haven't spared any expense on my Subie and at any price point I prefer my RomRaider reflash over every other option out there. I'll continue to run it now and if I had a rotated turbo or a built motor I would run it then too.

I didn't say you needed a Hydra but I did say if he was wanting to go all out he should get one lol. However I do stand firm in my opinion that when you get to a certain point things like romraider don't cut it, but as I said to Ray this is based on personal excperiences and we will agree to disagree there is no point to an arguement about it. The ability to switch maps though is a big advantage over most (please note I did not say all because the VW guys know about switching maps with the cruise controls) stock ecu flashes.

Again though best of luck to Rodder and I agree with what was said, if you're not going to keep it don't keep building it you will not get the money back. Sell the parts, build it stock, get a tune from Ray and do your suspension work.

[rodder]

nope, no road tune. Just a blast around the neighborhood to see if it feels OK. Maybe Andy took a log as well, but no road tuning at all. He said something about being in fear for his life because of a previous customer who was paying more attention to what Andy was doing than driving the car.

Somewhat understandable, but at the same time imo, you don't tune a car that's going to be daily driven on the dyno only. Get one of the shop guys you trust to drive it or something at least if you don't trust the customer.

[JET02WRX]

I agree wholeheartedly. Dyno tuning shows you your power....but the road tune shows the overall quality of the tune.

[rodder]

as for the utec stuff, yeah I understand now. Unfortunately I didn't know what the flashing cruise light meant when I first bought the car or I would have run a compression test and insisted the cruise light issue be worked out. Would have found out before I bought it that Dana had already killed it.

After the 2nd tune from Andy on the new shortblock it was flashing the CEL at WOT on the road which was my first indication it was knocking. I had Ryan log it to verify the knock. We saw a point or two during the log and also saw the sensitivity had been set so it had to see 2 counts before it would flash the CEL, and I saw the CEL flash often. Always got right out of it whenever I saw it flash, but I'm sure there was damage being done long before it ever even made it to Ray's.

I'll miss the on-the-fly map switching and the flashing CEL/knock sensor from the utec, but it was definitely causing the misfire codes and I really have no idea why. It was also giving bad hesitations at the switch over point between the UTEC and stock ECU on both accel and deceleration... hmm, maybe that's what was causing the ECU to think it was misfiring.

[lagos]

as for the utec stuff, yeah I understand now. Unfortunately I didn't know what the flashing cruise light meant when I first bought the car or I would have run a compression test and insisted the cruise light issue be worked out. Would have found out before I bought it that Dana had already killed it.

After the 2nd tune from Andy on the new shortblock it was flashing the CEL at WOT on the road which was my first indication it was knocking. I had Ryan log it to verify the knock. We saw a point or two during the log and also saw the sensitivity had been set so it had to see 2 counts before it would flash the CEL, and I saw the CEL flash often. Always got right out of it whenever I saw it flash, but I'm sure there was damage being done long before it ever even made it to Ray's.

I'll miss the on-the-fly map switching and the flashing CEL/knock sensor from the utec, but it was definitely causing the misfire codes and I really have no idea why. It was also giving bad hesitations at the switch over point between the UTEC and stock ECU on both accel and deceleration... hmm, maybe that's what was causing the ECU to think it was misfiring.


That bad hesitation you felt IS the miss firing/knocking. Sounds like the UTEC was doing its job and correctly reporting the knock.

[TROLL]

The UTEC is known for a rough transition point during the crossover between the stock ecu and the UTEC and sometimes its tough to smooth out, thats what he's referring to with that.

[lagos]

The UTEC is known for a rough transition point during the crossover between the stock ecu and the UTEC and sometimes its tough to smooth out, thats what he's referring to with that.

Fair enough, but bad hesitation and a cel for knock tell you that there was detonation in that rough transition. Meaning that something is wrong in the lower load cells of that utec map.

This is why this kind of tuning should be done on a brake dyno.

[D Money]

I feel really bad for you but from what I read, but it sounds like the car blew up after your 2nd tune, not the one that andy did. Is that correct?

I've had a car that Andy tuned over 2 years ago, stock ej205 at 22-23psi that I beat the **** out of, smoke all kinds of cars, and never had 1 problem. NOT ONE!

[Ender81]

I feel really bad for you but from what I read, but it sounds like the car blew up after your 2nd tune, not the one that andy did. Is that correct?

I've had a car that Andy tuned over 2 years ago, stock ej205 at 22-23psi that I beat the **** out of, smoke all kinds of cars, and never had 1 problem. NOT ONE!

The issues with Andy seem to have only started within the past 6 months or so. Before that I never heard anything but good, since then I've heard some pretty bad things. It's kind of sad.

[Honest_Bob]

Oh and one other thing... a Hydra is not better than a UTEC is not better than a RomRaider reflash. They are all tools to accomplish a goal. They each do things differently, but one is not better than the other. They each have pros and cons and some things each does a little better, but "built motors should have Hydras" just isn't accurate. I haven't spared any expense on my Subie and at any price point I prefer my RomRaider reflash over every other option out there. I'll continue to run it now and if I had a rotated turbo or a built motor I would run it then too.

Hell yes. I agree 100%.

I didn't say you needed a Hydra but I did say if he was wanting to go all out he should get one lol. However I do stand firm in my opinion that when you get to a certain point things like romraider don't cut it, but as I said to Ray this is based on personal excperiences and we will agree to disagree there is no point to an arguement about it.

What personal experiences are you talking about? The one where you've had Ryan install your utec and its been the best thing since sliced bread since then? :-p

As usual props to Ray. He's allways gone above and beyond for me. I'm regretting not going back to him the last time I got tuned. I hope everything works out for you.

[Ender81]

What personal experiences are you talking about? The one where you've had Ryan install your utec and its been the best thing since sliced bread since then? :-p


LMAO yeah I meant people I know and not just the Subaru community. There are certainly things I don't like about the Utec, mainly that rough transition as mentioned, but having seen things go bad with the open flashes I choose not take that risk. Again not worth talking about, it's just my opinion. Besides look who's talking you had an AP lol.

[Honest_Bob]

having seen things go bad with the open flashes I choose not take that risk. Again not worth talking about, it's just my opinion. Besides look who's talking you had an AP lol.

Things can go wrong with any engine management. A poor tune can kill any car no matter what engine management was used. Yes I had an accessport, Its called personal experience. :wink:

[Ender81]

Things can go wrong with any engine management. A poor tune can kill any car no matter what engine management was used. Yes I had an accessport, Its called personal experience. :wink:

Like I said Ben there is no point in talking about it. :thumbup:

[rodder]

OK, so the new plan is to keep the car and do a hone and drop ins. I'm thinking CPs, standard bore (of course assuming the bores are in decent condition). The motor only has about 6000 miles on it so it'd be a shame to spend a bunch of money I don't need to. Any thoughts or tips?

BTW, anyone handy pulling suby engines is welcome to attend the removal party. I've never done one of these yet but hear it's not hard. I have plenty of air tools, hoist, engine stand, etc... and beer. :mrgreen:

[Scapegoat]

so... what i've gotten out of this, and previous threads about Dana:

She has big fake boobies and beats her car

[TROLL]

BTW, anyone handy pulling suby engines is welcome to attend the removal party. I've never done one of these yet but hear it's not hard. I have plenty of air tools, hoist, engine stand, etc... and beer. :mrgreen:
when and where? dont have many free days but if i'm available i'll lend a hand... i'd like to do something to give you a little hope that subarus arent all bad news... the community can be pretty cool sometimes. let me know and if i'm able to i'll help out with pulling the motor...

[Ender81]

OK, so the new plan is to keep the car and do a hone and drop ins. I'm thinking CPs, standard bore (of course assuming the bores are in decent condition). The motor only has about 6000 miles on it so it'd be a shame to spend a bunch of money I don't need to. Any thoughts or tips?

BTW, anyone handy pulling suby engines is welcome to attend the removal party. I've never done one of these yet but hear it's not hard. I have plenty of air tools, hoist, engine stand, etc... and beer. :mrgreen:

Say when and if I am around I will be over. Don't know how much I could do but an extra hand couldn't hurt.

[rodder]

Awesome. Thanks for the offers guys. I'd be honored to have the TST Don himself lend a hand. I did get started on the motor pull yesterday, just disconnecting stuff mostly.

Ray has offered to lend a hand as well so I'll work out the official engine pulling party date with him and let you guys know when. I'm probably gonna shoot for two weekends from now.

[Ender81]

That'd be cool for me because next weekend I am out of town.

[TooFizzle]

Damn, that's the first time I've ever seen a subaru engine out. Looks confusing as hell...

[Jeffros Spec V]

Here is some of my tear down for reference :) Post date and time and i'll see if I can attend to lend a hand.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e382/Jeffro1122/DSC_0083.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e382/Jeffro1122/DSC_0018.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e382/Jeffro1122/DSC_0045.jpg

[RayArroyo]

wow jeff , you are messy lol

[rodder]

thanks jeff... did you have to take off the exhaust manifold to pull the motor? and is there a drain plug on the rad or should I just pull the lower hose and let er rip?

[rodder]

oh, and I suppose the starter has to come off...

(I'm working on it right now - having no job has it's perks) :)

[RayArroyo]

all you need to do


unbolt motor mounts
unbolt pitch arm
unbolt starter
remove radiator
discconect heater core hoses from block
remove the dp
remove battery
unbolt ac compressor and sit it where the battery goes so you dont have to empty the system
disconnect power steering lines to pump
disconnect harness
remove the tranny bolts
remove slave cylinder
unndo shift fork
pull engine

[rodder]

sweet...

Ray did you get my email? What's up with that job?... and when you coming to give me a hand with this motor? :wink:

[RayArroyo]

ill be there as soon as i have a car lol .

resend me your resume

[rodder]

sent the resume. thanks ray.

let's say I have the engine out tonight (:rofl:). When do you think is the soonest I could have this thing back up and running? I tried calling Vince today but he wasn't at the shop.

[rodder]

http://www.tristatetuners.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1069898&postcount=17

[rodder]

so how do I get these damn cams out? I can even break the bolts on the pulleys with a 1/2" breaker and a 3 foot pipe on the end. I'm afraid I'm gonna break something.

[RayArroyo]

reuse the timing belt to keep the pulleys in place, go to my members journal and look at the pics.

[rodder]

nevermind. I used the "old timing belt as a cam pulley wrench" trick and gave the breaker bar another shot and got the pulleys off. I'm nervous to see what #4 is gonna look like once I pull the head. Hoping there's no major damage to the valves and head cause I think a piece of piston came loose and was getting tossed around in the chamber.

EDIT: thanks Ray, that's exactly what I did.

[RayArroyo]

i predict your heads are fine

[Evolved]

Wow this really sucks. So glad I didn't buy this car. A black '05 with gold wheels was exactly was I was looking for but the owner seemed like a flake. The last thing I would have needed after two Evo rebuilds would have been a STi rebuild. Best of luck in getting your car running properly.

[RyanG]

I agree with Ray.. I doubt the top end is messed up dude.

[rodder]

valves are smashed in that chamber but the head itself is OK... and I must've been confused by rage when I was doing the comp. test... it's cyl #2 - broke off a piece of the crown down to the top compression ring.

I'll post pics in a bit.

[rodder]

http://www.andywdesign.com/misc_images/broken1.jpg

http://www.andywdesign.com/misc_images/broken2.jpg

http://www.andywdesign.com/misc_images/broken3.jpg

http://www.andywdesign.com/misc_images/broken4.jpg

[RayArroyo]

never seen that before, it always seems to stay together with the rings i can even pull them out in 1 piece

[rodder]

the broken piece of piston must've gotten smashed into tiny little bits and went out the exhaust... there's no trace of it left in the chamber at all

[DaveSTi]

ouch.

[karl]

thats scary.. if those pieces made its way out wonder if ur turbo is okay...

[RyanG]

gaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh!!!!!!!!!!! who'da thunk! man oh man... I really really hate my tune now.

[RayArroyo]

gaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh!!!!!!!!!!! who'da thunk! man oh man... I really really hate my tune now.

find the pipe, and we can address that :wink:

[rodder]

the turbo seems perfectly fine. not the slightest damage to the blades, no shaft play, spins freely etc.

looking down the exhaust port at the valves you can see a tiny bit of scuffing to the throat area above the valves but the back side of the valves and the seals and such look fine as well.

It's looking like new valves, possible valve job, and a re-hone and pistons should do it, right? I need this thing back on the road asap cause I'm selling my wrx. I might have to use the S10 as my DD for a while lol.

ryan, give me a call when you get a minute.

[rodder]

find the pipe, and we can address that :wink:

speaking of pipes, look what time it is. :mrgreen::afro:

edit: I guess my clock is fast.

[Ender81]

That's just crazy, I've never seen something like that.