Fun facts...and a question

[99SL2_Modder]

I figured I'd post this up and check.

A lot of people have brought up the fact that I've had a lot of traction issues and how that could be possible with "such a slow car." After getting over the fact that everyone's going to stereotype a car based on gas mileage, let's go into some facts.

124bhp is more than enough to make a 2300lb car scoot. S-series turds weigh 2300lbs and make 124hp at the crank.

Naturally, everyone knows that when you slam on the gas, all the weight slams onto the back tires, thus making the front tires lighter. A FWD car will smoke tires a lot easier than a RWD car. You laugh reading this statement, but it is true. Take a RWD car with 300whp and take a FWD car with 300whp. The FWD car will smoke a lot easier because there's no weight on the back, and the RWD car will hook up faster. This is NOT taking into account any brake stands or the like. Straight up mashing it.

Now take an 04 Corvette with the performance axel option. This is a 3.42 gearing. WOW, right?

Now take a stock s-series Saturn. What could this economy car possibly have as an axle ratio? 1.02? 2.32? Nope. Try 4.06. Yes, you read that correctly. S-series saturns come with 4.06 gearing. That's massive amounts of acceleration. They just don't come with the horsepower to utilize it, but they WILL spin tires because of the weight transfer and axel ratio. This will cause massive amounts of traction issues when wet.

So what are all your opinions and what (if you know) is your axel ratio?

[igo4bmx]

there have been alot of advancements in the fwd world to assist in traction...
stiffer engine mounts, traction bars, stiffer springs (to prevent unloading on the front) and beefy tires in the front

[99SL2_Modder]

there have been alot of advancements in the fwd world to assist in traction...
stiffer engine mounts, traction bars, stiffer springs (to prevent unloading on the front) and beefy tires in the front

1) Just got solid. Before they allowed a ton of engine movement
2) Not made for my car
3) Need much much stiffer ones
4) got

I understand. I was saying that stock and before I had so much done, it was a problem.

[igo4bmx]

1) Just got solid. Before they allowed a ton of engine movement
2) Not made for my car
3) Need much much stiffer ones
4) got

I understand. I was saying that stock and before I had so much done, it was a problem.

traction bars is something you could probably make if you had some time, materials, and a welder ;)

what is this axle ratio you speak of? is it in relevance to the final drive?

[99SL2_Modder]

traction bars is something you could probably make if you had some time, materials, and a welder ;)

There are a few people looking into it, but to be honest, I'm not even sure how they'd get put on. If you wanna take a look under my car one time, feel free to get in touch with me at a meet or something.

We can't attack massive traction problems without a car that is having them...for that, we need a turd with massive traction problems.

[igo4bmx]

There are a few people looking into it, but to be honest, I'm not even sure how they'd get put on. If you wanna take a look under my car one time, feel free to get in touch with me at a meet or something.

We can't attack massive traction problems without a car that is having them...for that, we need a turd with massive traction problems.

aren;t u having massive traction problems?

[99SL2_Modder]

aren;t u having massive traction problems?

Bald tires. That's been fixed.

I just read your edit.

Axel ratio is the relationship between the number of engine or drive-shaft revolutions and the number of wheel revolutions. So, an axle ratio of 3.68:1 means the drive-shaft turns 3.68 times for every revolution of the wheels. Higher numbers mean more rapid acceleration but they also mean lower top end speed and gas mileage because the engine works harder (turns faster). Lower numbers mean better overall speed and gas mileage. Higher numbers=lower gears (sometimes called short gears) while lower numbers=higher gears (usually called tall gears).

[igo4bmx]

ok so axle ratio sounds like the final drive ratio... which mine is 4.250

i wonder why a vetter would have a smaller axle ratio

[99SL2_Modder]

ok so axle ratio sounds like the final drive ratio... which mine is 4.250

i wonder why a vetter would have a smaller axle ratio

4.25? Your differential has a lot of teeth.

Are you sure that's right man? Your differential spins 4 and a quarter times for 1 turn of the tires?

[igo4bmx]

4.25? Your differential has a lot of teeth.

yeah its a honduh :mrgreen:
i think the reason why our final drives are so high are for gas mileage correct? at the same load on the motor, a higher final geared tranny will go a further distance compared to a lower ratilo.

i guess thats why right?
the downfall is putting a high ratio i think would increase the stress on the axles spinning the wheels, and RWD vehicles will see alot of stress b/c the rwd cars usually have tires that stick to the road better

[igo4bmx]

4.25? Your differential has a lot of teeth.

Are you sure that's right man? Your differential spins 4 and a quarter times for 1 turn of the tires?


u know im not really a tranny guy (ask Wil 2point4DSM :mrgreen: )

but here are the statistics for my ex tranny
http://home.cinci.rr.com/mistab0ne/tranny.html

[TROLL]

at 4000rpm a car with a 2.0 axle ratio will spin the wheels 2000 times, a car with a 4.0 axle ratio will spin the wheels 1000 times. am i confused, or is the higher the ratio, the slower the wheels turn as a result?
bryan

[99SL2_Modder]

yeah its a honduh :mrgreen:
i think the reason why our final drives are so high are for gas mileage correct? at the same load on the motor, a higher final geared tranny will go a further distance compared to a lower ratilo.

No no. A high axel ratio is tons of acceleration. A low accel ratio is more top speed. More acceleration usually means that it takes more gas because there is more load on the engine. It makes the engine continually work hard to spin the wheels because of how many rotations is needed. However, on bigger engine cars, it takes less work to move faster, so you don't need as big of a ratio. If you put 4.50's on a vette, say hi to 9mpg. That thing would just spin and eat. As it is, with those small gears, it eats gas because of how big the engine is. Once you put power into a small engine with that gearing it turns out to eat more gas. I think we figured that 1000cc injectors on saturn at WOT would drain the entire tank in 25 minutes.

at 4000rpm a car with a 2.0 axle ratio will spin the wheels 2000 times, a car with a 4.0 axle ratio will spin the wheels 1000 times. am i confused, or is the higher the ratio, the slower the wheels turn as a result?
bryan

RPM doesn't directly relate to how many times the wheels are turning. You shift into 5th at 75mph and drive at 2k rpm, don't you? But the wheels are still going 75mph.

[igo4bmx]

my brain hurts

[99SL2_Modder]

my brain hurts

Sorry. :cry:

[2point4DSM]

I think we figured that 1000cc injectors on saturn at WOT would drain the entire tank in 25 minutes.

Holy! No car is going to be able to run 1000cc injectors full open for 25 minutes without blowing a motor.

[TROLL]

yeah well the individual gear ratio factors in as well to produce the overall speed.

i think if i follow correctly then yes the lower number will be higher speed, but lower accelleration, which is exactly what you were saying...

bryan

[99SL2_Modder]

Holy! No car is going to be able to run 1000cc injectors full open for 25 minutes without blowing a motor.

Actually, injectors should never be used over 80 or 85% duty cycle. They will burn up otherwise, so you always buy bigger injectors than what you need so they're not overworked. In theory, if your engine had enough air to keep it cool, it could easily hold 25 minutes of WOT. Problem is, you run into a speed gov or not enough gears to continue to hold it for 25 minutes. That's a lot of speed. You're more likely to blow your transmission than your engine...if it's getting enough air, that is.

yeah well the individual gear ratio factors in as well to produce the overall speed.

i think if i follow correctly then yes the lower number will be higher speed, but lower accelleration, which is exactly what you were saying...

bryan

Yes! Woot!

[igo4bmx]

Holy! No car is going to be able to run 1000cc injectors full open for 25 minutes without blowing a motor.

he won't blow the motor
however the 1000cc pintles are so heavy and the fact that the stock ecu will open and close them like stock.. he will dump fuel, wash the cylinders and waste gas...

the car will die from fuel flooding in about 1 min

EDIT: a car can run 1000cc for a full 25 mins... as long as its properly adjusted to spit the correct amount of fuel ;)

[igo4bmx]

Actually, injectors should never be used over 80 or 85% duty cycle. They will burn up otherwise, so you always buy bigger injectors than what you need so they're not overworked. In theory, if your engine had enough air to keep it cool, it could easily hold 25 minutes of WOT. Problem is, you run into a speed gov or not enough gears to continue to hold it for 25 minutes. That's a lot of speed. You're more likely to blow your transmission than your engine...if it's getting enough air, that is.



Yes! Woot!

why would duty cycle cause them to burn up?>
i know countless hondas running 90-95 duity cycle and have no problems....

air wouldn't do anything... like i said you'll dump so much fuel it wouldn't even get run for like more than a minute

[99SL2_Modder]

he won't blow the motor
however the 1000cc pintles are so heavy and the fact that the stock ecu will open and close them like stock.. he will dump fuel, wash the cylinders and waste gas...

the car will die from fuel flooding in about 1 min

EDIT: a car can run 1000cc for a full 25 mins... as long as its properly adjusted to spit the correct amount of fuel ;)

I never said stock. ;) No way would I run 1000cc on a stock engine

why would duty cycle cause them to burn up?>
i know countless hondas running 90-95 duity cycle and have no problems....

air wouldn't do anything... like i said you'll dump so much fuel it wouldn't even get run for like more than a minute

Most of the time when you size injectors, you don't want to run them more then 80% duty cycle. If you go higher you run the risk of running the injector static, which means that is open all the time. Injectors act like a toaster or a speaker. They are given current and then they do some work, ie, they open up. If you give current to them all the time (100% duty cycle) they will heat up and can sometimes melt.

[2point4DSM]

Haha. DSM ecus will run them wide open down the 1/4, if need be.

Also, Honda use to have marine motors that looked very similar to the civic 1.6 motor with beefier internals cause marine motors are run wide open for long periods of time. Still no way Honda would come close to putting 1000cc injectors per cylinder and expect the motor to last.

[99SL2_Modder]

Haha. DSM ecus will run them wide open down the 1/4, if need be.

Also, Honda use to have marine motors that looked very similar to the civic 1.6 motor with beefier internals cause marine motors are run wide open for long periods of time. Still no way Honda would come close to putting 1000cc injectors per cylinder and expect the motor to last.

<---not a honda.

We don't have problem using 96lb injectors at all. *shrug*

[igo4bmx]

Haha. DSM ecus will run them wide open down the 1/4, if need be.

Also, Honda use to have marine motors that looked very similar to the civic 1.6 motor with beefier internals cause marine motors are run wide open for long periods of time. Still no way Honda would come close to putting 1000cc injectors per cylinder and expect the motor to last.

my boys hatch runs low 11's high 10s partially tuned running 1200cc's ;)
AEM EMS baby

here is an example of what honda's can do
http://forums.evans-tuning.com/viewtopic.php?t=2381
stock sleeves 1000cc injectors, and has run like that for over a year- no problems ;)

[2point4DSM]

The point was none of these motors could go all out on 1000cc at 100% duty cycle for 1min let alone 25 minutes. Even if the motors were running un-tuned with most of the fuel coming out the exhaust you would still be washing out the cylinder walls and eating up the rings very quick. Of course this debate is going to stay platonic cause there is no way to prove it unless someone just happens to have a boat we can drop these motors in. haha

[igo4bmx]

The point was none of these motors could go all out on 1000cc at 100% duty cycle for 1min let alone 25 minutes. Even if the motors were running un-tuned with most of the fuel coming out the exhaust you would still be washing out the cylinder walls and eating up the rings very quick. Of course this debate is going to stay platonic cause there is no way to prove it unless someone just happens to have a boat we can drop these motors in. haha


... or if we had one of those tundras where they try to break landspeed records...
running a 1000cc at 100% would require the revs to keep climbing... and when the rev limit is reached... i don't think a motor would be happy you're maxing the rev for 25 mins straight...

unless u lowered ur rev limited to like 3000 rpm

[99SL2_Modder]

The point was none of these motors could go all out on 1000cc at 100% duty cycle for 1min let alone 25 minutes. Even if the motors were running un-tuned with most of the fuel coming out the exhaust you would still be washing out the cylinder walls and eating up the rings very quick. Of course this debate is going to stay platonic cause there is no way to prove it unless someone just happens to have a boat we can drop these motors in. haha

A built saturn engine already did for over 1 minute straight.

He spun a bearing 5 months later doing McDonalds tray tricks without baffling his oil pan first. That's the only reason his engine died.

That car with the 18" wheels I posted up earlier runs 1000cc injectors.

[markley02]

Well, now that everyone is off of the subject of gear ratio's in a diff. Asking people what gear they have really doesn't have anything to do with a different car. Your tranny, tire size, and transfer case can change gear ratio's. The gears I have run in the past were 2.83 that was good to top out at 172. My 3.15 gears top out around 155. 3.38 gears at 145. and 3.91 gears top out around 128. Those are all the different gears I have ran in the past two years. You have to remember though. at times I was running slicks, 17" rims, or 18" rims so that would vary top speed a little bit.

[99SL2_Modder]

Well, now that everyone is off of the subject of gear ratio's in a diff. Asking people what gear they have really doesn't have anything to do with a different car. Your tranny, tire size, and transfer case can change gear ratio's. The gears I have run in the past were 2.83 that was good to top out at 172. My 3.15 gears top out around 155. 3.38 gears at 145. and 3.91 gears top out around 128. Those are all the different gears I have ran in the past two years. You have to remember though. at times I was running slicks, 17" rims, or 18" rims so that would vary top speed a little bit.

Yeah. Also, was your speedometer recalibrated, or did those tires come stock?

[fastjim]

all this talk about traction and stuff and pertaining to saturns are pointless unless you get a quaife torque biasing differential because if you have any power additions like a cold air intake and a full header back exhaust youll shot the differential pin right thru the bell housing...

[markley02]

Yeah. Also, was your speedometer recalibrated, or did those tires come stock?

Had it recalibrated when the 18's went on. Slicks were run with the 3.91 gears for auto-x. My top-speed run of 172 was done with the stock 17's.

[1988 Olds]

I have 3.73s and I also have traction issues. Thats what 350lbs of torque does to tires. Clint maybe if you bought some decent tires that would help. I have no idea about how the new ones (Surprise) are.

[99SL2_Modder]

all this talk about traction and stuff and pertaining to saturns are pointless unless you get a quaife torque biasing differential because if you have any power additions like a cold air intake and a full header back exhaust youll shot the differential pin right thru the bell housing...

Not true.

You can weld the diff pin in the stock differential as well, and it will hold quite a fair bit of abuse. However, the 1800 dollar quaife can't be beat for pin saving.

On the other hand, the automatics are hit or miss with differential blow-outs. You either get a strong differential and a bad valvebody, or vice-versa. Guess which I have. :cry:

Putting on those "power additions" won't shoot the pin through the bellhousing unless you drive like a sh!tbird and constantly 1 leg to spin it loose.

I have 3.73s and I also have traction issues. Thats what 350lbs of torque does to tires. Clint maybe if you bought some decent tires that would help. I have no idea about how the new ones (Surprise) are.

The new tires grab like no-ones business. I'm extremely happy with them.