the highest HP integra out right now

[igo4bmx]

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1334420

833 whp 549 ft pounds :prayer: :prayer: :prayer: http://is.rely.net/1-71-25975-l-hd0FeDVPlMcvfTfj98rWfA.jpg

[99SL2_Modder]

Can definitely tell it's a honda. Look at that torque!

[SexyDSM95]

Can definitely tell it's a honda. Look at that torque!
LMFAO!

[igo4bmx]

Can definitely tell it's a honda. Look at that torque!

its still over 500 lbs...
its a really steep power curve... could you imagine the pull on it

[2Mopars1Ford]

Massive achievment for a honda powered car.
Only problem I see is that it doesn't make decent power untill around 85-90mph, most races are done around 100 so it doesn't get it's power till a little late in the game.
Personally I like roots style setups with a torque curve that looks like this

torque----------------------------------------------------------------
Also the poster says it probably won't see boost over 30 psi again.
Most cars dont last long at 30+psi soto be able to drive it around on the street reliably he will have to drop the boost alot along with his HP and TQ #s.
Again, great accomplishment for a honda powered car but this gets filed under dyno queen for me.

[wgknestrick]

Typical tuners plot not showing RPMS to make the graph look better.

Everytime I see (highest hp from car X) it seems to be on a MPH based dyno graph. These graph are fairly pathetic when you see how long that HP lasts.

That's not my cup of tea on a FWD car that's for sure. I think the dragsters are way over that # anyways with Honda engines too (like 1000hp).

[igo4bmx]

Massive achievment for a honda powered car.
Only problem I see is that it doesn't make decent power untill around 85-90mph, most races are done around 100 so it doesn't get it's power till a little late in the game.
Personally I like roots style setups with a torque curve that looks like this

torque----------------------------------------------------------------
Also the poster says it probably won't see boost over 30 psi again.
Most cars dont last long at 30+psi soto be able to drive it around on the street reliably he will have to drop the boost alot along with his HP and TQ #s.
Again, great accomplishment for a honda powered car but this gets filed under dyno queen for me.

keep in mind thats a speed based dyno... you don't run a car in one single gear....

Typical tuners plot not showing RPMS to make the graph look better.

Everytime I see (highest hp from car X) it seems to be on a MPH based dyno graph. These graph are fairly pathetic when you see how long that HP lasts.

That's not my cup of tea on a FWD car that's for sure. I think the dragsters are way over that # anyways with Honda engines too (like 1000hp).

itsn't not my cup of tea either... i mean think of the huge traction problem !
i know of several 500-700 whp hondas running around for at least a year on heavy abuse...
im just amazed at the technology and evolution of power for smal displacement vehicles

[moorefire]

Somebody get the BS flag! MPH dyno plots, some tooner, haha

Even if its legit, a 800whp wrong wheel drive dyno queen is about as usefull as tits on a nun

[igo4bmx]

Somebody get the BS flag! MPH dyno plots, some tooner, haha

Even if its legit, a 800whp wrong wheel drive dyno queen is about as usefull as tits on a nun

we're waiting for Mase to validate the dyno

he is one of the best honda/acura tuners in america

[wgknestrick]

I still don't know why they won't post RPM graphs when it is just a setting within the Dynojet viewing software. MPH is meaningless to me

[wgknestrick]

thats a speed based dyno... you don't run a car in one single gear....

Am I missing something here? That dyno is a Dynojet. Every run I've ever done or seen on a Dynojet is done in THE gear closest to 1:1. You would see the shifts on the plot anyways.

[igo4bmx]

thats a speed based dyno... you don't run a car in one single gear....

Am I missing something here? That dyno is a Dynojet. Every run I've ever done or seen on a Dynojet is done in THE gear closest to 1:1. You would see the shifts on the plot anyways.


i know... it was done in one gear pull...
the other guy was looking at this graph and said he doesn't see power until 85-90 mph... but this is only one gear....

[2point4DSM]

Personally I like roots style setups with a torque curve that looks like this

torque----------------------------------------------------------------


We aren't trying to pull stumps out of the ground so torque is irrelevant. Horsepower is what determines how fast a car can do the 1/4 mile.

For example, which do you think is going to be faster at the track; a Cummins turbo diesel that makes 610 ft/lbs of torque (http://www.everytime.cummins.com/every/applications/ram_cummins600.jsp) , the Honda mentioned above, or my impact gun with 625 ft/lb of forward torque (http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=200051674&R= 200051674) .

haha.

[moorefire]

We aren't trying to pull stumps out of the ground so torque is irrelevant. Horsepower is what determines how fast a car can do the 1/4 mile.



BS, HP is derived from TQ, not the other way around. TQ makes u fast, HP is for winning schlong measuring contests on the intarweb.

They're afraid to show the RPM graph cus it will show that that huge snail won't spool till 8k rpm and that that car would get smoked by a car that makes several hunderd HP less but makes real TQ and dosen't have a competly useless poweband.

[Raven18940]

I'd kill this thing on the highway.

[2point4DSM]

BS, HP is derived from TQ, not the other way around. TQ makes u fast, HP is for winning schlong measuring contests on the intarweb.

Show me the math!

Going back to HS physics and remembering that Horse Power is a measure of work done. Or from:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/horsepower.htm
"A horse exerting 1 horsepower can raise 330 pounds of coal 100 feet in a minute, or 33 pounds of coal 1,000 feet in one minute, or 1,000 pounds 33 feet in one minute."

On the other hand, torque has no relationship to distance traveled so that is why even if I could use my impact gun to power a chasis half the weight of the Honda and which has more torque than both the diesel and Honda motor it will never come close to beating them down the 1/4 mile.

Also: http://science.howstuffworks.com/fpte4.htm

In terms of building a motor for a drag race people often trade off torque for more HP via the choice of cams. More overlap gives more torque but also kills HP. Still, people are always going for the bigger cams that put out more HP.

[Raven18940]

You're right, torque alone doesn't equal hp. You have to multiply it by a velocity, rpms.

HP = lb-ft * rpms / 5252

[2point4DSM]

The guys that brag about torque numbers are the ones doing the big bunouts. Big deal! Spinning tires gets you no where.... ;)

That's why I'm an AWD person. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[igo4bmx]

We aren't trying to pull stumps out of the ground so torque is irrelevant. Horsepower is what determines how fast a car can do the 1/4 mile.



BS, HP is derived from TQ, not the other way around. TQ makes u fast, HP is for winning schlong measuring contests on the intarweb.

They're afraid to show the RPM graph cus it will show that that huge snail won't spool till 8k rpm and that that car would get smoked by a car that makes several hunderd HP less but makes real TQ and dosen't have a competly useless poweband.

i have a feeling he is using either a gt40r or a gt42r which can spool a 2.0L honda at around 5-6K and he prolly revved to 9-10K (possibly)

[Raven18940]

I'll brag about my torque figures, 260 lb-ft from 2000-4000 rpms. :mrgreen: Does it mean much at the drag strip, hell no. It's fantastic on the highway though, I never have to downshift. I can be going 65, just put my foot down and in the blink of an eye I'm going 80. Put my foot hard down and I'm going 90, 100, 110, 120, 130, 140, 150. Engines with good midrange torque feel limitless in their acceleration cause the hp curve is much broader and smoother. Screw flat torque curves, I want a flat power curve. :thumbup:

[Aaron]

Hows that saying go?

"Horsepower wins shows but torque wins races?"

...something like that

[2point4DSM]

Hows that saying go?

"Horsepower wins shows but torque wins races?"

...something like that

You must have it backwards.... :mrgreen:

Torque is good for pulling tree stumps and lighting up tires. Do a search for top fuel dragster and the first thing that pops up is HP numbers. http://www.mspmall.com/raceline/topfuel.htm

[Raven18940]

I think it's something like Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races. *shrugs* What it means is don't focus on peak numbers, you need broad power on the track.

[2point4DSM]

Can someone show me where they actually talk about torque in professional racing. I'm not finding it.

Thanks.

[Driven]

Lots of people posting on a topic they know nothing about here.

There is a honda at ATL dragway every Friday night that runs 10.4's at over 140 with about 500hp and less than 300ft-lbs of torque. I can assure you that with slicks, a decent drivetrain and a competant driver, the car dyno'd in this thread will wreck anyone on this board.

BTW, for those of you too lazy to do the math, this car has over 400ft-lbs from 7300 RPM's until the dyno ends at about 9000 RPM's. It also has over 200ft-lbs at about 4600 RPM's. If you're not in your power range, down shift, it's that simple.

[moorefire]

HP = lb-ft * rpms / 5252

Thats what I said, HP is DERIVED from TQ

The only reason that car makes so much HP is cus it revs like a sewing machine to a million rpm where it makes power. Those types of power levels are completly useless on the street.

Don't talk about what you don't understand

I have no doubt that this car is fast, but claiming that its a "street car" that needs race gas and drag slicks to get any traction at all is a joke. But I guess thats the norm in the honduh camp.

[Driven]

I have no doubt that this car is fast, but claiming that its a "street car" that needs race gas and drag slicks to get any traction at all is a joke. But I guess thats the norm in the honduh camp.

Show me where the original poster says its a street car?

[Driven]

Don't talk about what you don't understand


How am I talking about what I don't know about? Show me a fast race car that doesn't REV to make power. I guess John Shepherd's car is slow then because he revs to over 10k on his way to his mid 8 second passes at 177mph in his Talon. Top Fuel dragsters are also slow because they rev to over 8k. Come to think of it, my car must be slow too, I had to rev to about 8k to run 123mph in the quarter. Damn, and all this time I had it all wrong, I want to shift at 3k to run fast.

[moorefire]

relax homie I wasn't talkin to you

But the original poster on HT did say it was a street car:

mase said it was probably the most powerful daily driven honda to ever exist. for now anyways....

I'm just saying, its beyond me why anyone would wanna daily drive a car like that, along with the funny dyno graph and lack of specs...

it just dosen't add up, and someone making bold claims like that better have some hard and fast proof

[97TSi]

I'd kill this thing on the highway.

Sure you would :roll:

There's so much stupidity in this thread it's making my head hurt.
Driven is the only one who seems to get anything.

A daily driver is all personal preference and how many sacrifices you're willing to make in building a high-horsepower car to cart you back and forth to work everyday. I daily drive my DSM at the 350hp (by no means extraordinary) range now and I'll daily drive it when it hits the 500-600+hp range as well. Some people like the rush of a big turbo spooling hard at 5-6k. If it's not your cup of tea, or you don't get it; who gives a ****.

[Raven18940]

Dude, I was joking. The only way I'd win is if we raced from 65 in top gear, cause I'd be a mile down the road doing 120+ by the time his turbo spooled. :P

I think we're all just messing around here, no one really cares. Bolting a HUGE turbo to an engine isn't that impessive to me. I hate turbo lag and my car has very little which makes me happy. Sure I'll never break 300 hp without a bigger turbo, but I don't care. Midrange power is what I use everyday and it has plenty.

[2point4DSM]

We aren't trying to pull stumps out of the ground so torque is irrelevant. Horsepower is what determines how fast a car can do the 1/4 mile.
BS, HP is derived from TQ, not the other way around. TQ makes u fast, HP is for winning schlong measuring contests on the intarweb.

As Raven18940 pointed out, yes HP is related to Torque. Still, HP is what gets you down the 1/4 mile. Did you even bother to look at the links I posted that nicely explained HP and Torque?

Also, my turbo would be considered pretty big in this group. It takes a long time to spool compared to bolting on a stock turbo. Run my car from a slow roll and you will never notice it. Even before it makes full boost it will pull away from a stock awd DSM.

Does it suck to drive on the street... not at all! I've got a generic catalytic coverter, resonator, and restrictive muffler so the car is quiet. It pretty much drives just like a regular car... that is until full boost where it just gets scary fast. On the highway I bet it would match what the Saab would do, even as the turbo crept its way to full boost. The trick is that it doesn't have to run full boost to put out the same amount of air as a smaller turbo. So even at 5 psi it would hang right there with a lot of the cars on here running 14s.

[Driven]

It pretty much drives just like a regular car... that is until full boost where it just gets scary fast. On the highway I bet it would match what the Saab would do, even as the turbo slowly built to full boost.

Mine too, other than climbing over that stupid bar to get into the drivers seat.

[2point4DSM]

I've got a generic catalytic coverter, resonator, and restrictive muffler so the car is quiet.

Et tu, Brutus!

[Raven18940]

On the highway I bet it would match what the Saab would do, even as the turbo slowly built to full boost.
:bs: Is that a challenge? :P j/k :lol:

Just to make this cut and dry, your car is going to accelerate at a rate directly rated to the amount of hp at the wheels. Hp and torque peak numbers are almost completely meaning in this regard. All that matters is the HP curve, you only need the torque curve to figure out the HP curve.

[igo4bmx]

Dude, I was joking. The only way I'd win is if we raced from 65 in top gear, cause I'd be a mile down the road doing 120+ by the time his turbo spooled. :P

I think we're all just messing around here, no one really cares. Bolting a HUGE turbo to an engine isn't that impessive to me. I hate turbo lag and my car has very little which makes me happy. Sure I'll never break 300 hp without a bigger turbo, but I don't care. Midrange power is what I use everyday and it has plenty.

im not impressed just on the turbo, just the technology and build to make a 2.0 L sing that loud

[2Mopars1Ford]

Personally I like roots style setups with a torque curve that looks like this

torque----------------------------------------------------------------


We aren't trying to pull stumps out of the ground so torque is irrelevant. Horsepower is what determines how fast a car can do the 1/4 mile.



Explain this, the 1/4 times below were from a major magazine if I remember correctly car and driver
newer mustang 260hp 300#'s torque
acura rl 300hp 260#'s torque
mustang ran a 14.1
acura ran a 15.1
same numbers but reveresed and the car with the torque was a full second quicker.

and the saying is horsepower sells parts, torque wins races.

One of the bigest jokes told by muscle car guys.
Whats the differance between a 1000 HP supra and a 500hp supra.
Answer: 2 tenths of a second (in other words all the extra hp don't do crap without the torque to back it up)

Now if you want to race around in circles forever horsepower is the way to go, but if it's gonna be stop light to stop light you need the toque.
The reason people always quote HP #s is because they are more impressive SOUNDING because it is usually the larger number.

[Raven18940]

That's easy to explain, it's a honda weighing almost 2 tons, there's just no way it could be fast. :P

[2point4DSM]

Explain this, the 1/4 times below were from a major magazine if I remember correctly car and driver
newer mustang 260hp 300#'s torque
acura rl 300hp 260#'s torque
mustang ran a 14.1
acura ran a 15.1
same numbers but reveresed and the car with the torque was a full second quicker.

http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/mustang/features/specs/

Mustang GT 300hp, 320 ft/lb torque. Or are you talking about some other model?

Also, Mustang GT weighs 3356lbs, and Acura RL weighs 3984lbs.

Now if we plug in the numbers at: http://www.dsm.org/tools/calchp.htm you will find that the whp is 229 for the Acura and 237 for the Mustang, otherwise the numbers make sense. Now I'm going to ASSume that the Mustang tested had a manual gearbox and the Acura only comes in auto the loss through the torque converter makes up for the rest.

Of course, this is the worse way to figure HP because ET is dependent upon a lot of different things, mainly traction at the line. It would have been better if you gave me MPH.

So if you study the math you will realize that the Acura has a lot more weight to carry around otherwise, if they weighed the same and both ran manual trannies then 300hp Mustang = 300hp Acura or very close. And that is even though the Mustang has 60ft/lbs more torque.

[2Mopars1Ford]

The mustang was an sn95(body style 99-04)
260/300 not the new 05.
The mustang was slush box hence the 14.1 most sticks hit high 13,s.
It was really a bad comparo I picked I didnt relize the Acura was AWD and a pig it was just the only 2 cars I could think of ATM that had virtually identical numbers only flipped.
Torque is better then HP until you lose the ability to maintain traction.
Another old saying I just remmbered.
Horsepower is you hitting the wall.
Torque is you taking the wall with you :mrgreen:

[S4toSTI]

for weight figure 100lbs = .10

[Driven]

One of the bigest jokes told by muscle car guys.
Whats the differance between a 1000 HP supra and a 500hp supra.
Answer: 2 tenths of a second (in other words all the extra hp don't do crap without the torque to back it up)

Actually, it's because of traction. Lots of 800whp supra's on the street run 11's at the track. Put in a power glide, decent suspension and slicks and you may see 8's out of it.

You can argue this til your blue in the face, but explain to me why people dont use diesel's for drag racing often if torque is what wins races? Explain to me how the 2.2l GM Ecotec is running low 8's FWD without any decent torque? Lot's of 1500ft-lb diesels out there, I don't see them running all that fast.

[Raven18940]

Yeah, there was a semi last week that only ran 20's. :lol:

[moorefire]

Lot's of 1500ft-lb diesels out there, I don't see them running all that fast.

Because diesels are the opposite end of the tq/hp spectrum. a 1500hp 2500rpm redline diesel is just as pointless as a 500ft/lbs 4cyl that needs to spin up too 10k rpm to make 800hp. Domestic guys understand this and play in the happy medium with v8s. The FWD 4cyl guys just have massive funding (GM and other factories) to fuel development of these motors due to the whole import drag fad. Truck guys would rather be off roading, or using their diesels to tow their v8 powered cars. You're comparing apples to oranges.

I'm not saying tq is better than hp, but hp without tq is a gimick

[2point4DSM]

Now your saying that there is a tq/hp spectrum. Great! How did this spectrum develop. Is there any real math or physics to it???

We aren't trying to pull stumps out of the ground so torque is irrelevant. Horsepower is what determines how fast a car can do the 1/4 mile.BS, HP is derived from TQ, not the other way around. TQ makes u fast, HP is for winning schlong measuring contests on the intarweb.

HP is derived from TQ, how? How about this (with permission from Kyle T., another DSMr)

First, we start with three equations:

1.) Horsepower (HP) = Torque (TQ) * Engine Speed (RPM)
2.) Thrust (THR) = Torque (TQ) * Gear Ratio (GR)
3.) Speed = Engine Speed (RPM) / Gear Ratio (GR)

In this example, gear ratio is assumed to be a number describing the overall reduction from crank speed. Thrust is the force applied at the pavement, which allows you to find acceleration when given the weight of the vehicle.

Now, rearrange equation 1 to come up with the following:

4.) TQ = HP/RPM

Then substitute equation 4 into equation 2, for torque:

5.) THR = (HP*GR)/RPM

This can also be written as:

5a.) THR = HP * (GR/RPM)

We can rearrange the speed equation (eq. 3) above, to the form:

6.) 1/SPD = GR/RPM

And, through substituting this into equation 5a, we achieve the following:

THR = HP * (1/SPD) = HP/SPD

So, the result is that thrust is proportional only to horsepower and vehicle speed.

In a real-life situation, you don't have infinite gear ratios, and instead (assuming no gearchanges in the middle of our comparison) you have a constant in that place. The result actually remains the same, since then speed is only proportional to RPM, and you can drop it right into the bottom of the modified torque equation (eq. 4).

What does this prove? Well, this proves that at ANY given speed, the acceleration of a vehicle can be directly related to the horsepower production at that point, and the weight of the vehicle (assuming no wheelspin, of course).

So, if you have two identical vehicles traveling side by side, and one has an engine making 75 ft-lbs of torque at 14,000 rpm and the other has a sweet diesel making a cool 500 ft-lbs of torque at 2100 rpm, they'll accelerate at exactly the same rate. They're making the same power, and traveling at the same speed, so they have the same thrust.

The math is only to show that the acceleration of a vehicle can be described purely in terms of horsepower, thus proving that there is no inherent reason why a "torquier" engine will be any faster than one with "less torque" given the same amount of horsepower.

Now if you want to race around in circles forever horsepower is the way to go, but if it's gonna be stop light to stop light you need the toque.

And why is HP important for racing around circles but not for stop light to stop light encounters?

Considering you didn't like the diesel vs Honda compariosn can you come up with any good examples of a high torque/low HP vehicle that can beat another vehicle with low torque/high HP from stop light to stop light?

[Driven]

Lot's of 1500ft-lb diesels out there, I don't see them running all that fast.

Because diesels are the opposite end of the tq/hp spectrum. a 1500hp 2500rpm redline diesel is just as pointless as a 500ft/lbs 4cyl that needs to spin up too 10k rpm to make 800hp. Domestic guys understand this and play in the happy medium with v8s. The FWD 4cyl guys just have massive funding (GM and other factories) to fuel development of these motors due to the whole import drag fad. Truck guys would rather be off roading, or using their diesels to tow their v8 powered cars. You're comparing apples to oranges.

I'm not saying tq is better than hp, but hp without tq is a gimick

So your telling me too much torque is bad? And money makes cars with low torque and high horse power fast? Explain John Shepherd's Eagle Talon then. He's a small team funded by building transmissions. Runs 8.4 's and 177mph in the quarter on 2.0L at over 10k RPM's. So thats only possible because of the money? If he only had 10k into his motor but it made the same low torque, high HP numbers, it would be slow? Oh, but they put their money into fuel developement... I guess they are using that new gas made in from cow dung....sarcasm....

I come from domestics, probably have a lot more history in it than you also. Horse power is what gets you down a quarter mile as long as you keep your car in its peak range. Theres more than one way to make lots of HP, most import guys know and respect that, a lot of closed minded V8 guys can't grasp it.

Another fast, low torque, high HP car:
Pro Compact cars: 3L Toyota Supra Motors: They are running mid 6's (I saw a 6.49 at Atco, but it wasn't backed up). I know they are making less torque than Pro stock cars with 500 cubic inches, but yet they are faster???? Oh yeah, they also weigh 150lbs more, so don't pull that argument.

2point4: Very well said.

[272sWrx]

torque wins races

[Raven18940]

You guys are talking about the same thing. You can't seperate torque and hp, they work together or not at all. You need the low down grunt of torque to come out of corners and come off the line, but without enough power at the top end you'll just be making a lot of noise. Rally car designers understand this as well, they were limited 300 hp some time ago. What did they do, the boost the crap out of the engines lower in the rev range so they're making 300 hp for a wide range of rpms, rather than just peaking at it. The DB9 R does a similiar thing with it's 600 hp V12 that makes 840 lb-ft of torque. Now a lot of people would say these torque curves ar bad because they drop off as the revs mount, but that's silly because it keeps the engine in it's peak power over a longer range of revs. People who say hp isn't important and you need torque are often talking about having broad power rather than a high peak. They're right, but not describing it right.

[moorefire]

Now your saying that there is a tq/hp spectrum. Great! How did this spectrum develop. Is there any real math or physics to it???

umm, +hp/-tq or -hp/+tq, you need an equation to visualize? ::roll::

HP is derived from TQ, how? How about this (with permission from Kyle T., another DSMr)

You must not have written any of this because you answered your question with the first equation.


1.) Horsepower (HP) = Torque (TQ) * Engine Speed (RPM)

Right there. Hp is a calculated value derived from TQ*RPM/5252 . TQ is measured by the brake on the dyno roller, RPM is RPM.

So, if you have two identical vehicles traveling side by side, and one has an engine making 75 ft-lbs of torque at 14,000 rpm and the other has a sweet diesel making a cool 500 ft-lbs of torque at 2100 rpm, they'll accelerate at exactly the same rate. They're making the same power, and traveling at the same speed, so they have the same thrust.

Yes, I was never disputing that.

The math is only to show that the acceleration of a vehicle can be described purely in terms of horsepower, thus proving that there is no inherent reason why a "torquier" engine will be any faster than one with "less torque" given the same amount of horsepower.

There is one reason that one of you two already stated: traction. A car with balanced hp/tq numbers will have a more tractable powerband than a peaky high hp/low tq or a grunty low hp/ high tq motor. Having a motor at either end of the spectrum requires additional traction (which is non-existant on a fwd car.) That was my original gripe with the teg, that calling a car a "daily driver" that makes all of its power up top on a front wheel drive car thats tuned for race gas is a bunch of BS. That and the fact their dyno graph is in MPH is just sketchy.

EDIT: I forgot another reason, gear ratio selection. Unless you have a close ratio box, an peaky motor won't be able to stay in the meaty part of its power band, and will bog between shifts.

Now if you want to race around in circles forever horsepower is the way to go, but if it's gonna be stop light to stop light you need the toque.

And why is HP important for racing around circles but not for stop light to stop light encounters?


Beacause the driver of the balanced motor dosen't have to worry about being in a cartain 2k part of his rev range, the peaky high-hp guy does.

So your telling me too much torque is bad? And money makes cars with low torque and high horse power fast? Explain John Shepherd's Eagle Talon then. He's a small team funded by building transmissions. Runs 8.4 's and 177mph in the quarter on 2.0L at over 10k RPM's. So thats only possible because of the money? If he only had 10k into his motor but it made the same low torque, high HP numbers, it would be slow? Oh, but they put their money into fuel developement... I guess they are using that new gas made in from cow dung....sarcasm....

No, I never said too much TQ is bad. I said UNBALANCED hp/tq figures are COUNTERPRODUCTIVE due to the additional requirements needed to get traction and engineer valve trains that are capable of revving high enough to make power with the unbalanced setup. But like any problem, lots of money to throw at engineers or good old fasioned american ingenuity can get around that. You can make a pig fly if you shove a big enough rocket up its ass, but why would u want too?


I come from domestics, probably have a lot more history in it than you also. Horse power is what gets you down a quarter mile as long as you keep your car in its peak range.

and as long as you can maintain traction. BTW I don't have much exp with domestics at all, I drive a nissan turbo 4yl.

I'm done, you guys are just arguing out of spite. Don't get your pantys in a bunch cus I called import drags a fad.

[Raven18940]

I'm done, you guys are just arguing out of spite. Don't get your pantys in a bunch cus I called import drags a fad.
Awwww, booooooo, I was enjoying this debate too. :(

[Driven]

Lots of backpeddling

Anytime either 2point4 or myself makes a point, you rearrange your argument to fit our point of the moment. HP gets you down the quarter mile. It's what wins races as long as you keep the car in the rev range. My car stays in a 2000 RPM range in the entire quarter mile (Leave at 6k, shift at 7500, never drops below 5500 after a shift). If I had no torque up to 5000RPM's and made 300ft-lb's from 5500-7500RPM's, I'd still have a damn fast car.

You are now backpeddling to say that HP isnt faster because it takes expensive valve trains? Stock DSM valve trains are good for close to 9k. I have a spare motor laying around if you are interested.

One of your points is 100% backwards. I drag car can stand to be peakier than any type of road/rally race car. A drag car can stay within a 1000-2000RPM rev range for the most part where a rally/road race car generally uses much more of its rev range. Again, they are using HP, just the same HP throughout the same rev range. Look at your rally example. They make lots of low end so they have 300hp at low RPMs, they also maintain 300hp at high RPM's (so torque drops right?). Does this mean the car magically slows down at high RPM's even though it's maintaining 300hp? Nope, pulls solid through the whole gear.

I don't really have a preferance import to domestic. I own both and appreciate both. Saying that import racing is a fad doesn't faze me either. Domestic racing was a "fad" when it was new also, and look at how that took off. You don't really have any solid evidence whatsoever so you keep talking in circles. I presume that's also why you're done with this thread.

[LSHatch]

Import drag racing is a fad. Yeah, that's why import cars are selling, while domestics are doing what? Oh yeah, selling their cars at employee pricing.

They said drag racing in entirety was a fad back in the day.

I guess I should just cancel my motor build since I won't make peak power until over 8k.

[Driven]

I guess I should just cancel my motor build since I won't make peak power until over 8k.

You need to have factory based funding to make a car fast that's peak power is that high so you can do fuel development. :partyman:

[LSHatch]

Hahaha. Well, the car leaves in three weeks to commence the build.

[moorefire]

Lots of backpeddling

Anytime either 2point4 or myself makes a point, you rearrange your argument to fit our point of the moment.

No u just keep missing my point.

Sorry I'll try to be more clear next time. haha

[Driven]

No u just keep missing my point.

Nope, pretty sure I got it:


TQ makes u fast, HP is for winning schlong measuring contests on the intarweb.

...that car would get smoked by a car that makes several hunderd HP less but makes real TQ and dosen't have a competly useless poweband.

But wait... maybe I did miss your point:


I'm not saying tq is better than hp, but hp without tq is a gimick

I thought torque made you fast? Now torque is no better than HP?


So, if you have two identical vehicles traveling side by side, and one has an engine making 75 ft-lbs of torque at 14,000 rpm and the other has a sweet diesel making a cool 500 ft-lbs of torque at 2100 rpm, they'll accelerate at exactly the same rate. They're making the same power, and traveling at the same speed, so they have the same thrust.

Yes, I was never disputing that.


But wait, I thoughtt you were:


TQ makes u fast, HP is for winning schlong measuring contests on the intarweb.

so torque makes you fast but identical cars, one with 500ft lbs and one with 75ft-lbs can accelerate at the same rate? Interesting. Both have the same size shlong in this case and both accelerate the same. Looks like shlong size might be what dictates how fast it is.

One more thing:

The FWD 4cyl guys just have massive funding (GM and other factories) to fuel development of these motors due to the whole import drag fad.

Still curious how money makes this whole debate irrelavent and somehow horse power gets them down the track fast with little torque?

;)

[moorefire]

No u just keep missing my point.

Nope, pretty sure I got it:


TQ makes u fast, HP is for winning schlong measuring contests on the intarweb.

See you automaticly think 1/4 mile times when you read that. The HT poster said (which you missed) that this car was a daily driver, and as a daily driver that car would be a dog.

...that car would get smoked by a car that makes several hunderd HP less but makes real TQ and dosen't have a competly useless poweband.

Again, you missing the fact this this is susposed to be a daily driver keeps you from realizing I was taking about a street scenario.

But wait... maybe I did miss your point:


I'm not saying tq is better than hp, but hp without tq is a gimick

I thought torque made you fast? Now torque is no better than HP?

For a daily driver I'd much rather have tq over hp.


So, if you have two identical vehicles traveling side by side, and one has an engine making 75 ft-lbs of torque at 14,000 rpm and the other has a sweet diesel making a cool 500 ft-lbs of torque at 2100 rpm, they'll accelerate at exactly the same rate. They're making the same power, and traveling at the same speed, so they have the same thrust.

Yes, I was never disputing that.


But wait, I thoughtt you were:


TQ makes u fast, HP is for winning schlong measuring contests on the intarweb.

so torque makes you fast but identical cars, one with 500ft lbs and one with 75ft-lbs can accelerate at the same rate? Interesting. Both have the same size shlong in this case and both accelerate the same. Looks like shlong size might be what dictates how fast it is.

Yes, they would be equally fast if they were running a 1/4 mile, but I was talking about a daily driver, which can't spend all day at 14k rpm.

One more thing:

The FWD 4cyl guys just have massive funding (GM and other factories) to fuel development of these motors due to the whole import drag fad.

Still curious how money makes this whole debate irrelavent and somehow horse power gets them down the track fast with little torque?

;)

Because the debate (as I saw it) was framed into the context of daily drivers, which it seems you've missed the entire time. That was my point. That this car, as a daily driver, is...

as useless as tits on a nun

so anyone that claims this car is a daily driver should be viewed with an eye of skepticism. You automaticly think I'm some domestic guy taking a cheap shot at imports and won't stop arguing just to argue.

[Driven]

See you automaticly think 1/4 mile times when you read that. The HT poster said (which you missed) that this car was a daily driver, and as a daily driver that car would be a dog.


Actually, I never once read the HT thread, I don't really care. Your statements were general, they didnt specify anything about a daily driver. Also note that you said "Torque makes you fast" So is there a difference between fast on the street and fast on the track now? You need torque to be fast on the street but not at the track?

And by the looks of that graph and some simple math, it appears that the car has over 120ft-lbs of torque between 2000 and 3000RPM's. I believe this is more than most honda's make stock right? Sure, the car won't be beating people in that RPM range, but its perfectly driveable. If he wants to accelerate hard, thats why he has a shifter.

BTW, looks like its 120ft-lbs of torque at that low of an RPM is more than a new honda civic has at 4800 RPM's. Perfectly daily drivable if you ask me.

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=46005/pageNumber=4

Also, making your power up high has some serious advantages on a daily driver. The main one is fuel consumption. You keep out of boost in a turbo car in daily driving and you can get good mileage. My 11 second car gets 20 around town beating on it pretty hard and 28ish on the highway. I bet this honda gets similiar or better mileage if its tuned well at partial throttle.

My feeling is people that bash a car for making big "peak" horsepower numbers have never driven such a car. My car has more torque before it spools the turbo now than it had stock at full boost. It appears as though this honda is the same way.

[97TSi]

I agree w/Driven.

I'm so tired of people bashing the whole "daily driver" thing. So what if he makes the majority of his power up high? I bet he makes his way through traffic just fine. If anyone wants a car w/a "broad" power range from 2k-6k go for it. I'd still take the car making 500+whp from 4500-5k and up for my daily. As has been said, power is just a downshift away.

[2Mopars1Ford]

You can argue this til your blue in the face, but explain to me why people dont use diesel's for drag racing often if torque is what wins races? .
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question381.htm

If you take a the last part of the last sentance.
If two engines produce the same torque, the one that can do it more times per minute does more work and therefore has more power.

Think about that.
All things being equal, two cars at the same revs the car with the most torque makes the most work (HP)
It's that simple.
Torque starts a race horsepower finishes it.
Cars with torque usualy have big pistons and long stroke which=low redline
cars with more HP and less torque usualy have smaller stroke and pistons which = high redline
A car with more torque down low will lead the race until it reaches it's limit (redline) at which point a car with lower torque and higher redline will begin to gain.
Short races favor torque
Long races favor HP

[moorefire]

See you automaticly think 1/4 mile times when you read that. The HT poster said (which you missed) that this car was a daily driver, and as a daily driver that car would be a dog.


Actually, I never once read the HT thread, I don't really care. Your statements were general, they didnt specify anything about a daily driver. Also note that you said "Torque makes you fast" So is there a difference between fast on the street and fast on the track now? You need torque to be fast on the street but not at the track?

I don't like heresy, so I read the HT thread. Unfortunately that thread is all heresy too, which is why I'm playing the loudmouth skeptic, but it takes a lot of bravado to cry about my interpretation of something you never bothered to read, and then have the audacity to say I'm backpedaling when I explain your misinterpretations.

Of course there is a diff between fast road and track. There is also a huge difference between drag racing (what you hear when I say track) and road racing (what I think when I hear track,) and grunty motors make road racing and street driving easier. Fast cars make up for a drivers shortcomings and mistakes.

And by the looks of that graph and some simple math, it appears that the car has over 120ft-lbs of torque between 2000 and 3000RPM's. I believe this is more than most honda's make stock right? Sure, the car won't be beating people in that RPM range, but its perfectly driveable. If he wants to accelerate hard, thats why he has a shifter.

True, but he would get smoked everywhere else besides a drag strip or a highway by a car with a good response tune.

My feeling is people that bash a car for making big "peak" horsepower numbers have never driven such a car. My car has more torque before it spools the turbo now than it had stock at full boost. It appears as though this honda is the same way.

And it is of my opinion that people that jock huge peak numbers have never had any road race experience to realize that when a motor is too peaky, there will never "always be the right gear for any situation." or they've just never enjoyed the thrill of acting a fool in traffic in a car with a good response tune.

Yea I know there are upsides of having a huge peaky, knuckle dragging power band. **** I wanna build a car like that some day too so I'm not so tempted to play in traffic and can just look for places to do high speed runs, but call me a hater, I'd be dammed if I put that kind of power delivery into a fwd car, cus its only gonna by usefull going straight. Life is to short to only have fun going straight ;)

[Driven]

If two engines produce the same torque, the one that can do it more times per minute does more work and therefore has more power.


Exactly, what that means is the higher the RPM the torque is at, the more power you make. You've been arguing against this the entire time:
TQ makes u fast, HP is for winning schlong measuring contests on the intarweb.

but it takes a lot of bravado to cry about my interpretation of something you never bothered to read, and then have the audacity to say I'm backpedaling when I explain your misinterpretations.

Actually, your statement was a blanket statement that said "makes u fast." See quote above.


Of course there is a diff between fast road and track. There is also a huge difference between drag racing (what you hear when I say track) and road racing (what I think when I hear track,) and grunty motors make road racing and street driving easier. Fast cars make up for a drivers shortcomings and mistakes.

Actually, I believe it was someone else in this thread that had this wrong, and I corrected it, example:

Now if you want to race around in circles forever horsepower is the way to go, but if it's gonna be stop light to stop light you need the toque.


One of your points is 100% backwards. I drag car can stand to be peakier than any type of road/rally race car. A drag car can stay within a 1000-2000RPM rev range for the most part where a rally/road race car generally uses much more of its rev range. Again, they are using HP, just the same HP throughout the same rev range. Look at your rally example. They make lots of low end so they have 300hp at low RPMs, they also maintain 300hp at high RPM's (so torque drops right?). Does this mean the car magically slows down at high RPM's even though it's maintaining 300hp? Nope, pulls solid through the whole gear.
See, I know what track racing is and I know that it requires a broad power curve. Is this car now a road race car or a rally car too?


True, but he would get smoked everywhere else besides a drag strip or a highway by a car with a good response tune.
And with that, I'll challange you to a race. Bring a car with good response on street tires and we'll race to 30mph, on the street. I have a low torque, high HP car, so this should be cake for you on street tires right?

And it is of my opinion that people that jock huge peak numbers have never had any road race experience to realize that when a motor is too peaky, there will never "always be the right gear for any situation." or they've just never enjoyed the thrill of acting a fool in traffic in a car with a good response tune.

Yea I know there are upsides of having a huge peaky, knuckle dragging power band. *no cursing!* I wanna build a car like that some day too so I'm not so tempted to play in traffic and can just look for places to do high speed runs, but call me a hater, I'd be dammed if I put that kind of power delivery into a fwd car, cus its only gonna by usefull going straight. Life is to short to only have fun going straight ;)

Like I said in the begining, I have more domestic experience than you. I've been in these situations before and I know what they're like. I have a 13 second all motor truck and I've driven 10 and 9 second all motor cars. They don't make all that much power down low either. In fact, the 9 second car that I've driven has a 5800 stall converter because it doesn't make much power below that. I've also done a bit of autocrossing and while I have taken my car a little far for it now, turbo lag is not that big of a deal if you know how to drive. Since you claim to have been talking about this particular honda and its road characteristics the entire time, its a Daily Driver, not a road race car...

[2Mopars1Ford]

If two engines produce the same torque, the one that can do it more times per minute does more work and therefore has more power.


Exactly, what that means is the higher the RPM the torque is at, the more power you make. You've been arguing against this the entire time:
Exactly, what that means is the higher the RPM the torque is at, the more power you make. You've been arguing against this the entire time:.


You either fail to comprehend my posts or like to twist things around.
My point form the very begining has always been.
Stop light to stop light torque is better.
The shorter the race is, the more torque will have the advantage.
In the 1/4 mile torque has the advantage because the car with less torque that has to hit hi rpms will be playing "catch up" at the far end of the track.
Show me one instance where I have said torque is better for longer races.
You can't.
Because I never have.

[Toretto]

Open up your high school physics textbook and review.

To the terminally braindead, torque is a static measurement! The gears on a dam make tens of thousands of ft/lbs of torque. Go try to remove your crankshaft pulley and you will exert more torque than a Honda.

To determine power you must know torque over an RPM range, this is the simple definition of horsepower.

Torque is a subcomponent of horsepower. Torque is meaningless in measuring acceleration without knowing the RPM. I can go push a 10ft breaker bar and make more torque any car on TriSTateTuners. Think about it.

[Driven]

Open up your high school physics textbook and review.

To the terminally braindead, torque is a static measurement! The gears on a dam make tens of thousands of ft/lbs of torque. Go try to remove your crankshaft pulley and you will exert more torque than a Honda.

To determine power you must know torque over an RPM range, this is the simple definition of horsepower.

Torque is a subcomponent of horsepower. Torque is meaningless in measuring acceleration without knowing the RPM. I can go push a 10ft breaker bar and make more torque any car on TriSTateTuners. Think about it.

You're alright Toretto, I can see why Spilner gave you the key's and let you go.

I'm headed out, I'll post more tomorrow if I see the need.

[2Mopars1Ford]

Torque is meaningless in measuring acceleration without knowing the RPM. I can go push a 10ft breaker bar and make more torque any car on TriSTateTuners. Think about it.

Thats why I said in my earlier post
"All things being equal, two cars at the same revs the car with the most torque makes the most work (HP)" :banana: