Safc???

[CleanNeon98]

What exactly does this little device do, and what can the possible benefit be for me and my d17 powerplant? I tried looking on the 7thgen civic boards, but everyone is throwing in the VAFC, and VAFC 2, the k-pro, etc.etc. so I got really confused among all of the terms..also I read on 7thgen is that it can do more harm than good if not properly worked with...whats the real deal with the SAFC?

[Nors]

SAFC is an air fuel controler. I have never been a fan, but I believe you can set injector duration with it. Its kind of a cheap way to tune. And if you have vtec you can set crossover points. I never liked them because its no where near as good as a standalone, but some people live by them. I see there are a few people viewing this thread as I type so I will let them further eloborate since I don't know very much about them, other then they arn't for me.

[Metalhedd]

http://www.apexi-usa.com/product_electronics_detail.asp?id=260&pageNum=1

[SeMaxima99]

i have the safc2 in my car it seems to work fine. I got the car with it installed. You would need the vafc to adjust vtec points.

[CleanNeon98]

i have the safc2 in my car it seems to work fine. I got the car with it installed. You would need the vafc to adjust vtec points.
non v-tec here

[highmilehatch]

It would be a pretty worthless mod to your car. Your not introducing enough extra air into your engine to need any way to alter fuel delivery.

[turbo4g63]

It would be a pretty worthless mod to your car. Your not introducing enough extra air into your engine to need any way to alter fuel delivery.

i agree.....you definately don't need one...hell i don't need one...i'd rather have dsmlink, but i'm poor

[CleanNeon98]

Now that we have eliminated it from my possible list of investments, what exactly does it do, in layman's terms...I dont understand anything on the apexi site..also, what are the different settings, and how are they used? there is a lot of terminology and things that i dont know, so I am looking to get all of this into my head and know it well, or at least have a vague idea of how it works...also, whats the different between the SAFC and VAFC...vafc is a vtec airflow controller? lets you change your vtec engagement point, but everything else is a blurr

[RayArroyo]

Now that we have eliminated it from my possible list of investments, what exactly does it do, in layman's terms...I dont understand anything on the apexi site..also, what are the different settings, and how are they used? there is a lot of terminology and things that i dont know, so I am looking to get all of this into my head and know it well, or at least have a vague idea of how it works...also, whats the different between the SAFC and VAFC...vafc is a vtec airflow controller? lets you change your vtec engagement point, but everything else is a blurr

safc air/fuel controller

hot it works

basically when you install it you interupt the signal of your maf sensor or map sensor


you cut the map/ maf sensor wire, now that is cut you put an in from the afc harness to one side and an out on the other.what it does is alters the map/ maf signal and allows you to add or remove fuel by altering the signal.

[CleanNeon98]

safc air/fuel controller

hot it works

basically when you install it you interupt the signal of your maf sensor or map sensor


you cut the map/ maf sensor wire now that is cut you put an in from the afc harness to one side and an out on the other. it now itricks the map/ maf signal and allows you to add or remove fuel by altering the signal.

ok..now i get what the guys were saying about not enough airflow for me to use it...because if more fuel and not enough air, il be running rich right? so basically this is a good thing for guys making high power to use to be able to finetune their A/F ratios?

[RayArroyo]

will you gain anything on an na car from this?

yes but only about 5-10 hp depending on the tune.


why would i gain power?

An a/f controller takes readings from your maf/map sensor and alters them trick your ecu into reading a different signal. And since all the maps work together, your maf/map sensor signal also will move where your ecu reads its ignition timing on the map. your maf/map is not only used to maintain air/fuel, but its also used by the ecu to determine load, and load is used for determining timing advance,

[RayArroyo]

ok..now i get what the guys were saying about not enough airflow for me to use it...because if more fuel and not enough air, il be running rich right? so basically this is a good thing for guys making high power to use to be able to finetune their A/F ratios?

not neccesarily you can also lean out your car with this device.

[CleanNeon98]

not neccesarily you can also lean out your car with this device.

right...basically, like the guys said, im not running a setup that this will give me any benefit really..hunduh reffered to my motor as the "red headed step child of the d series family", and i think thats a bad thing. oh well..there are other ways to make the car more enjoyable..

on a side note, my energy motor inserts just came in :)

[drew]

well, if your car is like the tiburon ( i dont know ) then you might be running rich from the factory ( meaning you're getting a fatter afr than you need to safely run ) an safc can allow you to correct that and lean it down a little bit to make more power

however, i don't know anything about hondas i'm just speaking for tiburons which run rich from the factory.

an afr is 14.7 is stoich, anything below that is rich and anything above it is lean, however just because 14.0 is on the rich side of stoich doesn't mean it's a safe afr to be sitting at wot/under boost. the point of the safc is so that people that know what they're doing can fine tune the ammount of fuel being delivered so achieve an ideal afr at all throttle positions


edit: looks like i was beat while typing lol

[CleanNeon98]

well, if your car is like the tiburon ( i dont know ) then you might be running rich from the factory ( meaning you're getting a fatter afr than you need to safely run ) an safc can allow you to correct that and lean it down a little bit to make more power

however, i don't know anything about hondas i'm just speaking for tiburons which run rich from the factory.

an afr is 14.7 is stoich, anything below that is rich and anything above it is lean, however just because 14.0 is on the rich side of stoich doesn't mean it's a safe afr to be sitting at wot/under boost. the point of the safc is so that people that know what they're doing can fine tune the ammount of fuel being delivered so achieve an ideal afr at all throttle positions


edit: looks like i was beat while typing lol

and thats where i official retire this though. like i read, it can do more harm than good in some cases, so if i tried to mess with it, id probbably set it and eventually destroy something in my motor

[Metalhedd]

ask carministrator about it. he's got a safc neo in his prelude

[grimm]

I had a VAFC in my EJ civic with a GSR swap (other then that it was ll bolt ons, I-H-E). I had the VAFC street tuned and I noticed a bit of extra pep and better acceleration, But it was tuned REALLY LEAN!!! So I stepped it back a little after the tune. It was cool, but that was really about it. In the end i think i would have rather not of spent the money.

[highmilehatch]

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Lets say you use a AFC on a MAF based turbo car. You have a 0-5v scale to work with. Stock injectors are 300cc. You install 600cc. So you trick the ECU into thinking its seeing LESS airflow than it really is, in order to compensate for the larger injector by entering -50% correction since the new injectors are twice the size. Lets say your running 20 psi, (theoretically) and that correlates to 4 volts. But you alter the airflow signal so the ECU sees 2 volts (10 psi theoretically).

Won't the ECU run predetermined timing values for 10 psi, because that is how much air your "telling" the ECU is coming in? Since the ECU "thinks" it's seeing 10 psi, won't it run ignition advance for that much airflow, rather than LESS advance (which it should be) for 20 psi.???

Basically what I'm asking is, if you running 20 psi, will the timing maps be ran in the 10 psi range (BAD), since the ECU thinks it's only seeing 10 psi?

[RayArroyo]

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Lets say you use a AFC on a MAF based turbo car. You have a 0-5v scale to work with. Stock injectors are 300cc. You install 600cc. So you trick the ECU into thinking its seeing LESS airflow than it really is, in order to compensate for the larger injector by entering -50% correction since the new injectors are twice the size. Lets say your running 20 psi, (theoretically) and that correlates to 4 volts. But you alter the airflow signal so the ECU sees 2 volts (10 psi theoretically).

Won't the ECU run predetermined timing values for 10 psi, because that is how much air your "telling" the ECU is coming in? Since the ECU "thinks" it's seeing 10 psi, won't it run ignition advance for that much airflow, rather than LESS advance (which it should be) for 20 psi.???

Basically what I'm asking is, if you running 20 psi, will the timing maps be ran in the 10 psi range (BAD), since the ECU thinks it's only seeing 10 psi?
that is correct , thats why for a car thats boosted that high i allways reccomend some type of timing retard or an emanage

[turbo4g63]

i actually don't even mess with my safc II, i'm afraid i'm gonna mess something up, right now i just left it in stock positions till i can get someone in the car to play with it...on top of that i have a junk autometer A/F gauge which in my eyes is not reliable...if i ever came accross a good one that i could afford then i might play with it

[turbo4g63]

i was actually thinking of pulling it out of the car and selling it since i don't use it...but that means i've gotta crawl under the steering wheel connect all the wires back together...whata pain, i wish i didn't put it in there

[RayArroyo]

i actually don't even mess with my safc II, i'm afraid i'm gonna mess something up, right now i just left it in stock positions till i can get someone in the car to play with it...on top of that i have a junk autometer A/F gauge which in my eyes is not reliable...if i ever came accross a good one that i could afford then i might play with it

i like them they are pretty awsome

[turbo4g63]

well my thing is that i really have no idea how to use it...i mean i know how to browse through it and get to the adjustments....but i am afraid of messing something up so i don't change anything

[RayArroyo]

well my thing is that i really have no idea how to use it...i mean i know how to browse through it and get to the adjustments....but i am afraid of messing something up so i don't change anything

let me know i can teach you

[turbo4g63]

well my car runs rich (as does every dsm)...and i want to lean it out...but i don't know whether i would go into the - or + to do so. it may seem stupid but true....i've got all of the basic settings on right.....throttle up, 4 cyl, karman. and i am not the type to go experimenting with it i'd rather be sure i am doing it right.

[RayArroyo]

well my car runs rich (as does every dsm)...and i want to lean it out...but i don't know whether i would go into the - or + to do so. it may seem stupid but true....i've got all of the basic settings on right.....throttle up, 4 cyl, karman. and i am not the type to go experimenting with it i'd rather be sure i am doing it right.

send me a pm and we can set some time

[awdriver]

Do you have a logger to read your 02 trim? if not your in the dark . The -pulls fuel the+ adds its simple .I bought a keydiver chip for a 2g mas and 550's and with out the afc it was rich as hell right now i have it at -10.As the rpm's go up the setting go down to -7 = more fuel up top .
It took A while of driving with the logger on to get the 02 trim close to 100 on a 1g . o2 was in the 40's with no afc(very rich)

[turbo4g63]

i don't have a logger, nor do i have any money right now or i'd get one. i decided i'd mess with it a little bit...i leaned it out going from -5 to -9 throughout the rpm range -7 by redline....the car actually feels smoother through the rpm band especially up high in rpms...once i get a full time job again then i'll get a logger to see whats going on. i got laid off from my full time job so i am stuck with my part time job for now till i can get another

[agoodall]

dont you live in WC? if so, take it to Import Intelligence, Matt will wideband tune your AFC for $45 bucks, plus you can pick his brain all you want. I just had mine tuned and my sr20det is so much smoother and a bit quicker too...not evryone wants a mechanic to tune their toys, but for $45 and one hour you will have a totally new car experience (IMO)

[turbo4g63]

well i don't live in WC anymore, i'm up in coatesville....i was on my way to work the other day when i saw you

[agoodall]

yeah i am not used to having other imports wave at me, only rev there engines like its go time or something....either way the ville is close enough to WC, drop $45 and have Matt tune it

[HKS83]

piggybacks are garbage. Get a standalone or reflash the ecu rom.

[highmilehatch]

I'm gonna have to agree with HKS83. Running too much ignition advance due to "tricking" the ecu's fuel maps is just a band-aid approach. Sure it may work, but I personally won't use them or recommend them to customers considering the detrimental effects they can cause to an engine.

Some of you will disagree I'm sure and defend the use of piggybacks. They are cheap and they do what they are supposed to do - add or subtract fuel. But fuel is only half the battle to getting the most power and reliability from an engine. I'm not bashing anyone who uses them. In fact, I'm sure there are more AFC's installed in cars than real standalones. I honestly think if more people actually understood the dynamics of fuel and ignition, and realized how bad running too much timing can be, they would stop using them.

[boostinsidewayz]

dont you live in WC? if so, take it to Import Intelligence, Matt will wideband tune your AFC for $45 bucks, plus you can pick his brain all you want. I just had mine tuned and my sr20det is so much smoother and a bit quicker too...not evryone wants a mechanic to tune their toys, but for $45 and one hour you will have a totally new car experience (IMO)

does he tune it on a dyno or street tune it?

[agoodall]

because Matt will do it for 45 bucks and its done right the first time.

[turbo4g63]

yeah i am not used to having other imports wave at me, only rev there engines like its go time or something....either way the ville is close enough to WC, drop $45 and have Matt tune it

i am not some ignorant ricer giving imports a bad name, thats why i never rev my car up...i usually give a thumbs up or a wave if i like what i see.

[turbo4g63]

I'm gonna have to agree with HKS83. Running too much ignition advance due to "tricking" the ecu's fuel maps is just a band-aid approach. Sure it may work, but I personally won't use them or recommend them to customers considering the detrimental effects they can cause to an engine.

Some of you will disagree I'm sure and defend the use of piggybacks. They are cheap and they do what they are supposed to do - add or subtract fuel. But fuel is only half the battle to getting the most power and reliability from an engine. I'm not bashing anyone who uses them. In fact, I'm sure there are more AFC's installed in cars than real standalones. I honestly think if more people actually understood the dynamics of fuel and ignition, and realized how bad running too much timing can be, they would stop using them.


well i understand what you're saying...but i can't afford stand alone....if i did do something different, i'd do dsmlink...its 565 for the dsmlink stuff, and another 250 for an eprom ecu...i looked into it....maybe one day, but for now i'll stick to my beer walet. if i get some extra $$$ then its on dsmlink has a lot of the benefits of stand alone without the huge price tag