WTF? Is this serious? (chevy/subaru related)

[doug]

http://www.chevrolet.co.in/content_data/AP/IN/en/GBPIN/001/BRANDSITE/index_forester.html

What the?

[98GSXdude]

not a clue, i'd love to hear from someone who has one though...

[teh DIRT]

BS. Toyota might be owning the right to subaru soon but I dont think GM is.

[teh DIRT]

then again this is the EDM and I dont know what goes there.

[doug]

Weird stuff comes out of India.

[1gmfanatik]

What's so bad about the Suby havin a lil in common with GM?? lol...

[Rey The Great]

is a joke..right? i hope!

[ozthunder]

Nothing to be ashamed of!

:wink:

Btw...Gm owns Saab..wasn't the 9-2x like a WRX almost? And isn't the VUE, Forrester, and whatever Saab has all related somehow?

[teh DIRT]

who knows. All I know is that my subie was made when subaru was subaru. Not saabaru or GMaru

[1gmfanatik]

All manufacturers have some sort of tie with one another at some point. My Cobalt has many Saab parts. Hell, Ford has Mazda parts, and GM Isuzu I believe. The funny things is, the majority of our import automobiles are made right here in the states anymore. The parts are, overnighted from Japan, (A lil Fast and the Furious quote there) but built right here in the US.

[PhillyLS1]

General Motors doesnt have many models of its own in the segments which are signifant in India.

So what it does is that it gets various models from its sister manufacturers with which it has got contracts or which are owned by GM. Thats why it got Optra which actually is aDaewoo Lacetti (See the typical Daewoo Grill in the front). Chevrolet Tavera is an Isuzu Panther. Chevrolet Forrester is actually a Subaru Forrester...and same goes with the Opel Line of products.

[tjf]

it says 2005 edition i guess we are a little late on that one

[dwl137]

GM used to hold a percentage in shares of Subaru. However, I believe last year, they sold back those shares. That's why the Saabaru existed, but got discontinued. GM no longer has access to Subaru tech.

[Honest_Bob]

Nothing to be ashamed of!

:wink:

Btw...Gm owns Saab..wasn't the 9-2x like a WRX almost? And isn't the VUE, Forrester, and whatever Saab has all related somehow?

The 9-2X is a wrx wagon with a saab front end.

****in weird.

[Charged SVTF]

Manufacturers contractually purchase other manufacturers' products with the right to rebadge and distribute everyonce in a while. They have an idea to try and make money but not the product....cheaper to buy it right off the bat for the short term investment than to invest in facility and production and wait a couple years before the "big idea" loses its appeal.

GM will F it up. At least they kept the forrester name and didnt just try to spin it off as their own produced vehicle. But it still looks so wierd with that Chevy logo lol. Asian-American Car, nah, I'd rather have an asian-american girl! lol

[Ender81]

it says 2005 edition i guess we are a little late on that one

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner. Yeah this would have been from when the partnership between Subaru and GM still existed. Still a little odd that the site would still be there though.

[ozthunder]

Why wouldn't it? Just because the partnership is dissolved doesn't mean that everything is retroactively done. In fact, many times you have the shared development continue, just nothing new.

Still a bit odd, though.

[redwrxwagon02]

phew god im glad we broke away from gm
other wise that forrester might have a 3rd gen 3.8 motor
OH NO INTAKE SEALS!
HOLY UNRELIABILITY BATMAN!

[MPowerKai]

All manufacturers have some sort of tie with one another at some point. My Cobalt has many Saab parts. Hell, Ford has Mazda parts, and GM Isuzu I believe. The funny things is, the majority of our import automobiles are made right here in the states anymore. The parts are, overnighted from Japan, (A lil Fast and the Furious quote there) but built right here in the US.

Ferrari is owned by Ferrari and no one else. I think Italy has made it a rule or something.

[ozthunder]

Used to be partially owned by Fiat, i believe.

[NJGOAT]

You guys really need to get a clue...

FIAT owns: Ferrari, Maserati, Alfa-Romeo and Lancia

Hyundai owns: Kia

Volkswagen owns: Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, SEAT, Skoda and a non-controlling stake in Porsche

Porsche is independent but owns a significant share of Volkswagen.

BMW owns: Rolls-Royce, Rover and Mini

DaimlerChrysler (Mercedes) owns: Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep and Smart

Ford owns: Lincoln, Mercury, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Land Rover, Volvo and Mazda

Toyota owns: Lexus and Scion and a 20% stake in Subaru.

Renault owns: Nissan (it may be a "strategic" partnership but on the books Renault is #1 thanks to it's 45% ownership of Nissan compared to Nissan's non-voting 15% of Renault), Infiniti and Peugeot.

Honda owns: Acura

GM owns: GMC, Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, Saturn, Hummer, Saab, Cadillac, Holden, Opel, Vauxhall and owns a large stake of Lotus. GM also has a strategic partnership with Isuzu, Suzuki and Daewoo and recently sold it's 10% stake in FIAT above and only recently sold it's 20% stake in Fuji Heavy Industries which owns...

Subaru, which is now 80% Fuji Heavy Industries and 20% Toyota.

So...as you see, every car company is tied to just about everyone else in convoluted ways and the list above is not even 100%. What's listed above is just the easy stuff. In fact, a lot of the engineering that created your favorite little WRX's, was done by GM engineers. It may also interest you to know that BMW now sources it's automatic transmissions from GM. Ferrari and Audi now buy their magnetic shock dampers (first introduced on the Corvette) from GM. Oh, and Toyota has recently purchased advanced hybrid technology from GM...just to name a few of the companies who buy parts from backwards, feeble,, un-reliable non-advanced GM.

So, it's not wise to bust the balls of a certain large American automobile manufacturer. As for reliability, let's see what J.D Power and Associates has to say...

This is the 2006 New Vehicle Initial Quality Test:
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2006082

This is the 2006 vehicle reliability study which is based on vehicle made in 2003:
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2006133

Based on that...if I was in the market today and had to choose a Chevy or a Subaru based on realibility, it's Chevy all the way.

[ozthunder]

Porsche is moving towards owning a controlling stake in VW, btw.

[MPowerKai]

Go Koenegsegg!!!

[LS1LT1]

You guys really need to get a clue...

FIAT owns: Ferrari, Maserati, Alfa-Romeo and Lancia

Hyundai owns: Kia

Volkswagen owns: Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, SEAT, Skoda and a non-controlling stake in Porsche

Porsche is independent but owns a significant share of Volkswagen.

BMW owns: Rolls-Royce, Rover and Mini

DaimlerChrysler (Mercedes) owns: Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep and Smart

Ford owns: Lincoln, Mercury, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Land Rover, Volvo and Mazda

Toyota owns: Lexus and Scion and a 20% stake in Subaru.

Renault owns: Nissan (it may be a "strategic" partnership but on the books Renault is #1 thanks to it's 45% ownership of Nissan compared to Nissan's non-voting 15% of Renault), Infiniti and Peugeot.

Honda owns: Acura

GM owns: GMC, Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, Saturn, Hummer, Saab, Cadillac, Holden, Opel, Vauxhall and owns a large stake of Lotus. GM also has a strategic partnership with Isuzu, Suzuki and Daewoo and recently sold it's 10% stake in FIAT above and only recently sold it's 20% stake in Fuji Heavy Industries which owns...

Subaru, which is now 80% Fuji Heavy Industries and 20% Toyota.

So...as you see, every car company is tied to just about everyone else in convoluted ways and the list above is not even 100%. What's listed above is just the easy stuff. In fact, a lot of the engineering that created your favorite little WRX's, was done by GM engineers. It may also interest you to know that BMW now sources it's automatic transmissions from GM. Ferrari and Audi now buy their magnetic shock dampers (first introduced on the Corvette) from GM. Oh, and Toyota has recently purchased advanced hybrid technology from GM...just to name a few of the companies who buy parts from backwards, feeble,, un-reliable non-advanced GM.

So, it's not wise to bust the balls of a certain large American automobile manufacturer. As for reliability, let's see what J.D Power and Associates has to say...

This is the 2006 New Vehicle Initial Quality Test:
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2006082

This is the 2006 vehicle reliability study which is based on vehicle made in 2003:
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2006133

Based on that...if I was in the market today and had to choose a Chevy or a Subaru based on realibility, it's Chevy all the way.:iagree:
There's absolutely NO shame in owning a GM vehicle, they've got some cool stuff out there right now. :drag:

[Buster]

and who else will build the rentals!

[1gmfanatik]

You go with your bad self NJGOAT..lol...I love what you do for me...Chevy

[roccobladr]

its ok guys i showed it to doug and he stole my info! i got it from the cobalt boards i think. he just wishes his scooby std was part of the chevy family!

[1gmfanatik]

lol...Could be rabbit, could be

[DomZ]

Don't be ashamed of a little GM lovin' in your Subarus.

And PS, Ford sold Aston for $925MM to a bunch of private investors recently.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/03/12/business/ford.php

But they're holding onto Jaguar? Now THAT is cause for some WT***e, not GM and Subaru gettin' in the sack together.


hahah WTF age gets blocked.

[Master Mitsubishi]

:jawdrop: :rotfl:

[NJGOAT]

Dom, I didn't realize that the Aston sale was final...cool info.

It's funny though I just realized that I missed one of my favorites...Mitsubishi.

You all know that DaimlerChrysler used to own 20% of Mitsubishi, but they sold that off. Mitsubishi is now wholly controlled by...guess who...Fuji Heavy Industries. Which as you all now know owns most of Subaru. So it looks like the STI and Evo camps are really just one big happy (albeit screwed up) family.

[JET02WRX]

You guys really need to get a clue...


Toyota owns: Lexus and Scion and a 20% stake in Subaru.

So, it's not wise to bust the balls of a certain large American automobile manufacturer. As for reliability, let's see what J.D Power and Associates has to say...

This is the 2006 New Vehicle Initial Quality Test:
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2006082

This is the 2006 vehicle reliability study which is based on vehicle made in 2003:
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2006133

Based on that...if I was in the market today and had to choose a Chevy or a Subaru based on realibility, it's Chevy all the way.

Not to bust yer balls...cause don't get me wrong...I love the GTO's, F-bodies, (had a WS6).... but your facts about Toyota are not quite correct. Toyota only owns just under 9% of Fuji Heavy....also....Interesting article below...

Oct. 5 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp., hobbled by three straight quarters of losses, agreed to sell its stake in the Japanese maker of Subaru cars and trucks for about half the amount it paid five years ago.

Toyota Motor Corp., GM's biggest competitor, will buy 8.7 percent of Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. for about $315 million cash. GM will sell the remainder of its 20 percent stake in Fuji Heavy, valued at about $422 million at today's closing share price, back to Fuji or on the stock market. GM's Fuji holding had been valued at $1.5 billion.

GM is raising cash after posting $1.4 billion in losses in the first half and losing its investment grade rating in May. GM's former subsidiary Delphi Corp. is asking GM for financial help to stave off bankruptcy. GM, the world's biggest automaker, faces further losses as U.S. consumers continue to boost purchases from Toyota and other Asian automakers.

Moral: GM still needs to get its act together, get rid of some of its duplicate name plates and up their quality some. Holden should be their STANDARD...

Also... where are you getting the info that GM designed the WRX? Heres another interesting quote from a couple years ago....

"When Bob Lutz, chairman of GM North America, saw the Legacy at this year's Detroit Auto Show, he told Subaru that he wanted the vehicle transferred to GM's interior design studio as soon as the show was over. It seems that Mr. Lutz wanted his interior design team to see what an interior could and should look like."

Again... just trying to put some facts out there...

[ozthunder]

Well, why don't you post the facts about segments of GM that are not domestic to the American market.

[Dave]

two words: Toyota Cavalier ;)

[NJGOAT]

Not to bust yer balls...cause don't get me wrong...I love the GTO's, F-bodies, (had a WS6).... but your facts about Toyota are not quite correct. Toyota only owns just under 9% of Fuji Heavy....also....Interesting article below...

Oct. 5 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp., hobbled by three straight quarters of losses, agreed to sell its stake in the Japanese maker of Subaru cars and trucks for about half the amount it paid five years ago.

Toyota Motor Corp., GM's biggest competitor, will buy 8.7 percent of Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. for about $315 million cash. GM will sell the remainder of its 20 percent stake in Fuji Heavy, valued at about $422 million at today's closing share price, back to Fuji or on the stock market. GM's Fuji holding had been valued at $1.5 billion.

GM is raising cash after posting $1.4 billion in losses in the first half and losing its investment grade rating in May. GM's former subsidiary Delphi Corp. is asking GM for financial help to stave off bankruptcy. GM, the world's biggest automaker, faces further losses as U.S. consumers continue to boost purchases from Toyota and other Asian automakers.

Moral: GM still needs to get its act together, get rid of some of its duplicate name plates and up their quality some. Holden should be their STANDARD...

Also... where are you getting the info that GM designed the WRX? Heres another interesting quote from a couple years ago....

"When Bob Lutz, chairman of GM North America, saw the Legacy at this year's Detroit Auto Show, he told Subaru that he wanted the vehicle transferred to GM's interior design studio as soon as the show was over. It seems that Mr. Lutz wanted his interior design team to see what an interior could and should look like."

Again... just trying to put some facts out there...

To the first part...I never said anywhere that GM is perfect. I was simply responding to the attitude on this board and many others that GM is antiquated, behind the times and lacking any real technology. The fact is, is that GM is an incredibly progressive and advanced on the technology side. Many of the innovations found in cars and trucks were pioneered by GM and later copied by the foreign brands. For decades Japanese cars were nothing more than cheap versions of American cars. It wasn't until the 90's that the Japanese began coming into their own.

GM's financial status is hampered by one major source that the Japanese companies do not have to contend with...legacies. The auto unions gained massive concessions from both GM and Ford over the years. These concessions (pensions, healthcare, etc.) are now coming into play as the core of GM's workforce advances toward retirement. Essentially GM is coming to pay the piper for its care of the average American worker. At last count GM still employed 6 times the American workforce that any other automaker employs and they are also the highest paid with the best benefits. If GM was paying what Toyota pays in pension and healthcare, GM would be the most profitable automaker in the world by a huge margin. If the Japanese automakers did not have the luxury of a virtual slave workforce, they would not be as competitive as they are. So damn you GM and Ford for taking care of the average American worker far better than any of the foreign companies would even dream about caring for their workforce.

As for GM quality, the past 10 years have seen massive strides in the quality, both perceive and actual of GM's products. No, on the average the "everyman" cars are still behind the Japanese in terms of perceived quality, but the mechanical reliability and performance are on par, if not better than the Japanese. Just take a look at GM's current crop of cars and the models that will be coming out over the next few years and you will see that it is an exciting time to be a GM fan.

I never said the GM designed the entire WRX. During the partnership between GM and Subaru, Subaru had access to vast technological and engineering resources that it never had before. GM engineers worked very closely with the folks at Subaru on the Impreza platform to get it ready for use in Saab applications and many of the advances (particularly in chassis tuning and body rigidity in the platform) were direct results of the effort between the two companies. The partnership was not one-sided as many here would like to think.

As for the Toyota share amount, you are correct. I had seen a site that showed Toyota held 20% of Fuji. ~9% is the correct amount. However, as I read it was interesting to find out that Toyota had interest in buying the full 20%, but couldn't becuase of Japanese anti-trust laws. These laws have now changed, so Toyota is again looking at taking a controlling stake. I just hope for Subaru's sake, they don't get turned into another bland division of Toyota.

[JET02WRX]

First off...thanks for engaging in a civil discussion with me :thumbup: rather than giving in to the name calling and other typical bs that goes on in here sometimes... I was simply responding to the attitude on this board and many others that GM is antiquated, behind the times and lacking any real technology. The fact is, is that GM is an incredibly progressive and advanced on the technology side.
I'll have to agree, that in recent years, GM has advanced in the technology dept. I just think that they have been in a serious rut aesthetically. Pontiac / Chevy specifically.


As for GM quality, the past 10 years have seen massive strides in the quality, both perceive and actual of GM's products. Just take a look at GM's current crop of cars and the models that will be coming out over the next few years and you will see that it is an exciting time to be a GM fan.
I do agree with this too. I'm just holding my breath though. I'm still waiting for GM to follow in Fords steps and give us a great looking v8 sports car thats affordable ( less than 30K) I think thats why the GTO failed... between the 32/33K price tag plus dealer mark up, it was a slap in the face to most GM enthusiasts...me included.

During the partnership between GM and Subaru, GM engineers worked very closely with the folks at Subaru on the Impreza platform to get it ready for use in Saab applications and many of the advances (particularly in chassis tuning and body rigidity in the platform) were direct results of the effort between the two companies. The partnership was not one-sided as many here would like to think.
I'm really interested to read up on this info, (not being sarcastic) would like to know more about it. Do you have any links? Also, I know there are a few GM haters here and there on here, but I don't think there are anymore than the "foreign" haters. So don't be too quick to pass judgement. I for one like both! I've owned both and I appreciate both. I miss my WS6 like crazy, and I'm holding my breath that GM can come in with some reasonable price points on the Camaro...

However, as I read it was interesting to find out that Toyota had interest in buying the full 20%, but couldn't becuase of Japanese anti-trust laws. These laws have now changed, so Toyota is again looking at taking a controlling stake. I just hope for Subaru's sake, they don't get turned into another bland division of Toyota.

HAHA.. i read and thought this exact same thing a couple weeks back. I had ended my thought about it by saying it wouldn't surprise me if Toyota makes them drop out of the WRC.

What are your thoughts on the new Camaro and the origins of its platform?

[NJGOAT]

The new Camaro is going to be a sweet car. The Zeta platform is probably just about the most advanced mass production RWD platform ever built. Everything that I have read and seen on it basically says that any car built on this platform is one you will want to own. The first Zeta car in the US will be the Pontiac G8. Motor Trend drove its Aussie cousin and the only thing they could compare it to was the previous gen 400hp M5...it's that good.

Price wise the new Camaro's will be right in line with current Mustang pricing, but will offer far better driving dynamics and more powerful engines. Base 3.9L V6's are going to be ~21k. They still haven't released full details on all the engines yet, but you may be looking at L92 6.0L in the Z/28 (same engine as G8) and the new 6.2L LS3 in the SS. There was even rumor of a ZL1 option with the LS7 in it. The Z/28's are to be in the mid 20's, the SS's in the low 30's and the ZL1 in the low 40's. Either way you cut it, it's incredible bang for the buck.

On top of that GM is planning on expanding RWD/AWD cars throughout the line up. In addition to G8 and Camaro. The new Impala will be riding on Zeta sporting a slew of engine choices. In addition there are still persistent rumors of a new GTO, as well as the movement of G6 and Malibu to a new RWD/AWD platform. It will be very exciting to be a GM fan over the next 5 years as the entire car lines are revamped and realigned.