Dilemma

[driftingeric2k4]

Need some feedback here...

I am looking to trade in both my 00 Mustang GT/C and my 05 Yamaha FZ6.

The Mustang is a pile of shiat and I no longer ride the bike due to almost being killed on it (scared - sad I know).

I have two cars that I have long wanted to own and I want ya'll to weigh in with your opinions.

1st car is the Subaru Impreza WRX, probably a 2002-2003. I have done a lot of work with the dealer already as far as payments can go, and the cheapest I can get one with decent miles (around 30k) will be for about 19k (due to neg equity and etc etc). I love everything about this car - looks, turbo, AWD for winter etc etc.

2nd car is the Toyota Celica GT-S. I have always loved the final production run of this car. The front just looks damn sexy to me. The back end, not so much, but it isnt a deal breaker. What is attractive is the fact that I can get one (by the looks of it) for a couple grand cheaper - some of the 2002's on autotrader are listing for 14-15k. This car also gets better gas mileage (EPA 30 highway vs EPA 25 Highway on Impreza, city driving is a bigger gap @ 23 vs 17) than the Impreza, and I have a 70 mile round trip commute so I would be lying if I said that was't attractive. I also suspect my insurance would be slightly less in the Celica due to WRX being turbo. The high revving VVTL-i engine is attractive to me on some level as well.

I crunched the numbers and it looks like they both will perform about equivalent at the quarter mile stock (14.3-.5), mainly due to the weight difference (3085 WRX curb vs 2500 curb of the Celica). I drag race once or twice a year due to the track being 2 hours away whether I go to Syracuse or across the pond over to Canada.

So...weigh in. If you were me, what would you do - all things considered?

[TalonTsi97]

I know gas may be important to you but what is more enjoyable to drive. From looks of it the wrx should be a funner car.
It also depends on how fast you want the car to be. When your not at the track do you still like driving fast? Are you looking to mod them?

[Vypurr2]

For insurance , don't forget the safety ratings of the Subaru and the fact that it is a 4-door sedan. Mine was cheap because of AWD and good ratings.

Personally I think you will be better off with the Celica simply because of mileage. But if mileage is what you want, you should buy a 3 cyl geo metro!

[driftingeric2k4]

I know gas may be important to you but what is more enjoyable to drive. From looks of it the wrx should be a funner car.
It also depends on how fast you want the car to be. When your not at the track do you still like driving fast? Are you looking to mod them?

Good points.

I agree the WRX would be the car that is more fun, especially when it comes to snow "drifting" in the winter. Do I drive fast? yeah, no more so than others though. I dont go looking for trouble thats for sure, but if someone wants to run a light to light and the area is dead I'll give them the satisfaction of seeing my taillights.

If I buy the WRX, tuning is going to be to a minimum due to the higher payment. But to be honest, the celica would be just basic bolt-ons as well as there are more important things in life to me right now than blowing 4-5g on a turbo or whatever. I'm not hardcore like that :cry:

Here's a question - most turbo vehicles you have to use premium grade to avoid detonation - can you get waway with using regular pump (87 octane) on the WRX? That will put a HUGE dent in my gas fund (one of THE primary reasons why I am 86'ing the mustang. 15 mpg sucks my nuts).

[driftingeric2k4]

For insurance , don't forget the safety ratings of the Subaru and the fact that it is a 4-door sedan. Mine was cheap because of AWD and good ratings.

Personally I think you will be better off with the Celica simply because of mileage. But if mileage is what you want, you should buy a 3 cyl geo metro!

My mother was told when she was looking for her Subaru that due to the WRX being turbo, it was classified as a sports car, despite being a sedan. She bought a Legacy instead.

Mileage isn't ALL that I want, but I shouldnt have to totally compromise it either, know what I mean? I dont want a slush box by any means, but if its good on gas too I cant complain.

I am taking my time on this one because it ABSOLUTELY has to be a car that I will stick with for more than 2 years.

[Broken5hift]

i cant see a reason why you would want to take a celica over a wrx. from a performance aspect anyways

[TROLL]

you have to use 91 octane minimum in the WRX... but think about this rough example...

87 octane: $3.00 / gallon
93 octane: $3.20 / gallon

10 gallons per fillup means $30 for low grade and $32 for high grade... its a 6% difference in cost regardless of how you look at it.
i'm not sure what kind of mileage the celica gets, but i bet thats a much bigger factor than low vs. high octane. 6% can be more than made up with proper tire pressure (3% per psi you're off by, so they say), a good alignment, and steady cruising.
just making the point that people who get all worked up about having to 'pay' for higher grade gas really shouldnt be worrying about it.

and just for kicks, this example would be MUCH different if gas was 1.00 for regular and 1.20 for premium... now we're talking about a 20% increase in cost, which i agree is substantial.

[driftingeric2k4]

i cant see a reason why you would want to take a celica over a wrx. from a performance aspect anyways

Primarily it has to do in the difference of cost vs benefit, which is why I am asking for ya'll's opinions.

Is it that big of a difference? 227hp on the WRX vs the 180 on the GT-S. Factor in the weight difference of 500 pounds. P/W ratio on the WRX is .073, P/W ratio on the GT-S is .072.

Is it worth the extra 3-4 grand I will be paying to get that extra bit of performance...or could I gain that performance back with less cost in mods to the Celica? For example, is there a noticeable difference in the suspension on the WRX that I could justify the extra cost on as well?

I'm trying to get all the facts before I commit.

[driftingeric2k4]

you have to use 91 octane minimum in the WRX... but think about this rough example...

87 octane: $3.00 / gallon
93 octane: $3.20 / gallon

10 gallons per fillup means $30 for low grade and $32 for high grade... its a 6% difference in cost regardless of how you look at it.
i'm not sure what kind of mileage the celica gets, but i bet thats a much bigger factor than low vs. high octane. 6% can be more than made up with proper tire pressure (3% per psi you're off by, so they say), a good alignment, and steady cruising.
just making the point that people who get all worked up about having to 'pay' for higher grade gas really shouldnt be worrying about it.

and just for kicks, this example would be MUCH different if gas was 1.00 for regular and 1.20 for premium... now we're talking about a 20% increase in cost, which i agree is substantial.


Celica, according to EPA (which I know is usually high, but it is high for all models) states that the Celica will get 30 highway, 23 city versus the WRX getting 25 highway and 17 city.

I currently get 17-15 highway in my mustang. So both cars offer a savings, regardless of which I go with.

I ask about the high test only because if you factor in the 5 mpg difference and then add in the difference between the 87 and 91 octanes, it will add up.
I pay 3.14 for regular (87) and 3.34 for 91. 91 is our highest grade around here. I have no idea how much 93 would be, but I suspect it would be ten cents more than the previous grade like the other grades are.

[TROLL]

wrx weighs 3085, how much does a celica weigh?
exhaust and engine management will get a wrx to about 220 whp, (about 275 chp).
again, dont know much about the celica.

and yeah i mean you can use 91 octane in the wrx unless you're tuned otherwise. i agree that 5 mpg plus more expensive gas makes it worth thinking about. just saying in general that paying 6% more for gas isnt really a big deal on its own.

[sisforsurfing]

In my experience 93 is no more expensive than 91. High grade is high grade it seems. Bryan also makes a good point that when gas prices were $1/gal, 93 was 20% more, and it's now much less going by percent.

Celica vs. WRX performance-wise... Celica's are GREAT handling FWD cars, and the technology on the 2ZZ engine is pretty cool, but it doesnt do much for me. The WRX will walk all over a Celica in a straight line, it's a more economy-minded car. Bolt-ons on a Celica won't net you much, bolt-ons on a WRX make a significant difference... turbo vs. N/A is no comparision.

I get 27 mpg highway in my WRX in 85 degree heat. The Celica will do much better, but not if you're constantly seeing redline, which is where all of that car's power is.



Actually read none of that, go test drive both!

[Broken5hift]

Primarily it has to do in the difference of cost vs benefit, which is why I am asking for ya'll's opinions.

Is it that big of a difference? 227hp on the WRX vs the 180 on the GT-S. Factor in the weight difference of 500 pounds. P/W ratio on the WRX is .073, P/W ratio on the GT-S is .072.

Is it worth the extra 3-4 grand I will be paying to get that extra bit of performance...or could I gain that performance back with less cost in mods to the Celica? For example, is there a noticeable difference in the suspension on the WRX that I could justify the extra cost on as well?

I'm trying to get all the facts before I commit.

ok let me ask you this, for the price, why have you decided on those two cars?

[driftingeric2k4]

wrx weighs 3085, how much does a celica weigh?
exhaust and engine management will get a wrx to about 220 whp, (about 275 chp).
again, dont know much about the celica.

and yeah i mean you can use 91 octane in the wrx unless you're tuned otherwise. i agree that 5 mpg plus more expensive gas makes it worth thinking about. just saying in general that paying 6% more for gas isnt really a big deal on its own.

Celica has a curb of 2500, according to edmunds.com, which I find to be relatively accurate. Gas is kind of my wild card here, because I find myself now not thinking about where I can go to do stuff first, but instead how much its going to cost me just to get there. Living in the boonies like I do, you have to drive EVERYWHERE to do anything at all.

Quick math,

Mustang - 70 miles a day, at 87 test (3.14 currently), at 17 mpg gets me:
(70 miles / 17 mpg)*3.14 gallon = $12.93 a day.
Multiply by 5 business days a week: $64.65
4 wks in a month: $258.60
12 months in a year: $3103.20

WRX - 70 miles a day, at 91 test (3.34 currently), at 25 mpg gets me:
(70/25)*3.34= $9.35 a day
wkly: 46.75
mnthly: 187.00
yrly: 2244.00 <-- savings 859.20 (!) over Mustang

Celica - 70 miles, 87 test, at 30 mpg
(70/30) * 3.14 = $7.33 a day
wkly: 36.65
mnthly: 146.60
yrly: 1759.20 <-- savings 1344.00 over Mustang, 484.80 over WRX.

I dont usually think on an annual basis, but weekly, sure. So the celica saves me about 10 bucks a week. Add in the 3-4 grand of the purchase price difference.

Is the WRX worth that? :help:

And yes, I used to work as an accountant. I number crunch anything and everything possible. :roll:

[driftingeric2k4]

ok let me ask you this, for the price, why have you decided on those two cars?


Combination of style, performance, economy and what I can afford. Also durability is huge as that is one of the main reasons I am selling the mustang. It breaks something every other week and that is killing me about as much as the gas is.

[Broken5hift]

what about a scion? or a mini cooper? or an rsx-s? for example

[StealthTC]

VVTLi FTW!! If there was someway If there was mounts to put the GTS motor into a Scion I would already have done it.

[driftingeric2k4]

what about a scion? or a mini cooper? or an rsx-s? for example


The tC was high on my list at first until I spoke to the local dealership about one. They are selling them for faaar too much. Scion MSRP is like 17 or something, they are selling for almost 20.

Mini cooper - not my style.

RSX, also out of my price range. Acuras are considered luxury up here, the closest dealer is Syracuse, 2 hours away and they also are substantially priced above MSRP. You rarely see them. Matter of fact - to even see a rusted out Integra is extremely rare. I see more porshces than I see acuras- and that is saying a lot.

[driftingeric2k4]

VVTLi FTW!! If there was someway If there was mounts to put the GTS motor into a Scion I would already have done it.


As I understand it, VVTL-i is equivalent in engineering principle to Honda's VTEC. I originally came from the Honda camp. Unfortunately, I hate the looks of the EP3 and the new Si is out of my price range.

[Broken5hift]

what about leasing one?

[driftingeric2k4]

what about leasing one?

Can't do that, I did the math and I would get killed on overages for mileage due to how much I drive for work. Not only do I drive the commute, but I often have to do on-site installs and vendor/facility visits that take me anywhere from Pittsburgh to southeastern Vermont. A couple people in my extended family have gotten burned pretty bad by leases as well, so they just dont leave me with a good impression.

I appreciate your feedback. I'm just a real picky bastard.

[Broken5hift]

Can't do that, I did the math and I would get killed on overages for mileage due to how much I drive for work. Not only do I drive the commute, but I often have to do on-site installs and vendor/facility visits that take me anywhere from Pittsburgh to southeastern Vermont. A couple people in my extended family have gotten burned pretty bad by leases as well, so they just dont leave me with a good impression.

I appreciate your feedback. I'm just a real picky bastard.

ah its cool, just trying to throw some stuff out there :mrgreen:

what about a used car possibly with low mileage thats good on gas?

[driftingeric2k4]

ah its cool, just trying to throw some stuff out there :mrgreen:

what about a used car possibly with low mileage thats good on gas?

I have been trying to find something like that for months now. See I have two issues.

The mustang, well, I hate it. It breaks constantly. I got a bum deal for sure. I am trying to cut my losses.

The motorcycle, its sad really. I almost got killed by a rig who nearly hit me head on. Ever since I have been scared shiatless to ride it. I have had it for sale for three months now and no interest. As the season gets on, it will be harder and harder to find a buyer.

The salesman who is looking for cars for me is a personal friend and I know he isnt going to screw me over or price inflate. he also is going to trade in his ATV for my bike so we are using the dealership as an intermediary to both get what we want. So I see a chance to kill two birds with one stone, dump the mustang and bike, and get a better car at the same time.

I have been looking for a cheap honda for awhile now but I see this as a good opportunity to get into something relatively new, quick and fun. I have a hard time stomaching paying for another vehicle just so I dont have to drive a busted azz mustang and a bike that has put the fear of god in me.

[Broken5hift]

that sucks man. i got a 93 camaro with some mods on it for like $4500. its not new and pretty but its cheap and fast

[driftingeric2k4]

that sucks man. i got a 93 camaro with some mods on it for like $4500. its not new and pretty but its cheap and fast

Yeah, no doubt I have dug myself into a hole and I see this as the best way out. I'm really waiting for someone to say "get the WRX you pinhead - here is why". Lol.

One thing that Troll said was that the Celica doesnt respond well to bolt-ons whereas the WRX does. I dont have a lot of money lying around (heh, otherwise I'd be rocking an STi for sure) so what money I do spend on mods I dont want to go to waste.

By the same token, I could buy more mods for the celica due to the money I'd be saving every month on the payment and gas.

Sigh...this sucks. :mad:

[Broken5hift]

ok here:

buy the wrx cause you have a ****ty commute, so it will be good for you in the winter time whereas the celica will be drifting into snow banks

[driftingeric2k4]

ok here:

buy the wrx cause you have a ****ty commute, so it will be good for you in the winter time whereas the celica will be drifting into snow banks

Exactly what my gf said lol. AWD is definitely attractive, as is the TURBO. I know for a fact if I go with the WRX (it is what my salesman-friend is looking for) I am buying a better BOV immediately haha.

I am about 95% sold on the WRX anyway. I tend to overanalyze soemtimes and I think that is what is going on here.

[sisforsurfing]

Get the WRX, whatever ridiculous percent of this site has them, most all are happy. It's a great car for what you're looking for... I was using the same parameters, just a little less care for mileage. I drive a lot, most of my friend's are 40-45 minutes from me, and i drive 90 minutes to the beach a few times a week, plus the work commute. Subaru's are very reliable, and mine has not had ONE issue over the past year of ownership... just ask MuddyREX, i think he has 90 thousand miles of pure, modified abuse on that car.

Just don't go launching it everywhere and you won't look back on your purchase... and please don't vent the BOV!

[driftingeric2k4]

Just don't go launching it everywhere and you won't look back on your purchase... and please don't vent the BOV!


Duly noted.

as for the part I left up above - this will be my first turbo vehicle. I dont quite understand the difference between a recirculating BOV and an atmospheric one and the implications they hold. Care to explain why I wouldnt want to vent it (I assume by vent you are referring to an atmospheric bov)?

Signed,
Turbo noob. :)

[sisforsurfing]

hah, the first question every person who's never owned a turbo car asks, and you dont even have one yet! jk

The car meters/measures the air going into the intake, and see's the air getting sucked in. The stock blow off/bypass valve puts that air back into the intake where the computer see's it, but if you vent it out to the atmosphere, that air still gets measured even though it's not in the intake... this means there's extra fuel going in that there's no air for, causing a rich/stuttering condition between shifts. Everyone goes through the 'I want a BOV' stage, whether they admit it or not. If you must, get one that vents 50% of the air and recirculates 50%, like the GFB valve.

Now you have to get a WRX ;-)

[driftingeric2k4]

hah, the first question every person who's never owned a turbo car asks, and you dont even have one yet! jk

The car meters/measures the air going into the intake, and see's the air getting sucked in. The stock blow off/bypass valve puts that air back into the intake where the computer see's it, but if you vent it out to the atmosphere, that air still gets measured even though it's not in the intake... this means there's extra fuel going in that there's no air for, causing a rich/stuttering condition between shifts. Everyone goes through the 'I want a BOV' stage, whether they admit it or not. If you must, get one that vents 50% of the air and recirculates 50%, like the GFB valve.

Now you have to get a WRX ;-)


I see. Interesting. Does that heat up the intake charge at all? I definitely don't do stuff for the sake of the "coolness" factor. If it robs me of performance then it won't be done just for the sake of sounding like a billy-badazz.

[sisforsurfing]

The air is already intercooled. On a WRX the BOV is on the intercooler, so no it doesnt really heat up the intake charge at all. The stock WRX valve is pretty good and definitely won't leak until you do some serious modding.

[Broken5hift]

I see. Interesting. Does that heat up the intake charge at all? I definitely don't do stuff for the sake of the "coolness" factor. If it robs me of performance then it won't be done just for the sake of sounding like a billy-badazz.

it causes your car to run extremely rich

[driftingeric2k4]

Cool thanks guys. good info to know.

[Honest_Bob]

Yep if you go for the wrx stay away from air intakes and bovs. Just not worth the consequences. I say go for the wrx, it will OwN in the winter time with a set of dedicated snow tires. Hell I beleive it'll even take most 4x4 trucks and suv's in the snow due to its more advanced awd system. The wrx is also pretty safe car from what I've been reading. My wrx is up to nearly 27k miles on it without so much as a hicup except for minor stuff such as a burnt out fog light and a set of windsheild wipers. Been stage 2 for about 10k out of the 27k. Gotta watch out for the mod bug though, it bit me twice this week once for some hella supertones and a set of swift springs. :cry:

[Vypurr2]

How about an SRT-4? You can get them CHEAP (10-14k) with very low miles. They are much faster than the WRX and Celica stock for stock. With mine I would easily get 24mpg with nothing buy city driving and thats beating on it!

[driftingeric2k4]

How about an SRT-4? You can get them CHEAP (10-14k) with very low miles. They are much faster than the WRX and Celica stock for stock. With mine I would easily get 24mpg with nothing buy city driving and thats beating on it!


Not real keen on the way they look, and as I said, I have to be wanting to keep this vehicle. Of the three, this is the only one I have yet to test drive though. To be fair, it is on my list and has been since I decided to do this trade. It would take a LOT of convincing for me to go to it though. A lot.

[Vypurr2]

I would say give it a drive. I fell in love instantly. But its easy to talk when i am not spending any money!

[driftingeric2k4]

I would say give it a drive. I fell in love instantly. But its easy to talk when i am not spending any money!

haha, aint that the truth. It's a dodge dealership that my buddy works for that I am getting the car through so a test drive can be arranged. I just have to find the time from work to go there.

[92dxman]

Have you thought about a Nissan Sentra Spec-V? You get a limited slip, 6 speed manual and they seem to be torquey. Plus you get a usable backseat whereas the Celica GTS is just a cargo shelf....

[MPowerKai]

Nissan Sentra Spec V is pretty cool, my friend used to have one with aem cai and a borla exhaust and it sounded amazing. Now he has a turbo 350z.

[Honest_Bob]

You fools! There is only ONE SE-R worth owning!

http://www.wideopenwest.com/~jreinacher/Nissan/SER/SERsd.jpg




Wouldnt mind having a 200SX SE-R either...

[JET02WRX]

Obviously I'm biased, but I'd vote for the WRX also. Although 19,000 seems a bit high for an 02...even with the lower milage. I'd shop around. As far as your money for mods vs. which responds better. On a 4cyl engine, a turboed one will most always respond better mod for mod to an naturally aspirated one. Like i think Troll basically said... Throwing an exhaust and engine management on the celica will probably add minimal gains...but those same upgrades on a wrx net much bigger results. That, 4 doors vs 2, plus the awd?
WRX FTW!

[the mike]

As someone who is on his 2nd WRX AND works for Toyota, I can say that the Subaru holds up a TON better than the Celica. For some reason the vast majority of GT/GT-S's we get in, regardless of mileage, just look way older and more run down than the actual mileage age would lead you to believe. They are an uncomfortable car to get in and out of, unless you like to lean back. Rear seats are pretty much useless. And no AWD.
The Subaru has it's pitfalls though. Glass transmission comes to mind. I have seen window switches go pretty often. The speakers suck and are an odd size. But for a year round, utilitarian car it can't be beat. You could probably get a wagon for even cheaper, no one wants those.:mrgreen:

Like Chris said though, test drive them and see which one fits you personally better. Browse the web too, see which community is better. I would still have my EVO if most EVO owners weren't dicks.

www.newcelica.org
www.clubwrx.net/forums

[the mike]

To add to the BOV case, the plugs on a WRX are more difficult to get to than most cars, the BOV will cause you to foul them out faster due to the richness between shifts. It isn't worth it to have to change them more often if you don't have to. The stocker is more than adaquate.