Next Meet Discussion: "The Shop"

[criz]

next meet discussion: "the shop"

out of curiosity, what would people like to do if there was this dream shop? i'm big into marketing and stuff like that... i'd like to learn engine tuning... if there are people who are big into painting, mechanics, audio... etc.. we could have something going...

its one of those things where not everyone can be the boss, however... everyone would have a say in with the direction of the company... the company I work at is similar, 10 friends got together and made a interactive agency and 1 is the CEO, another one is a programmer...

if we can find peices that mesh well, we may be able to build something

[teh DIRT]

im a wrench turner. But I am slowly learning other things. One a graduate with my degree I should know a handful

[the mike]

ASE tech. I do the installs and the custom fabbing.

[coco5316]

graduating with a motorsports degree in may

[Zeropistonz]

Currently at an automotive school. Going for my inspection and emission/repair license in a week. Also hopefully will be ASE certified A1-A8 within this year. I don't like to admit it but I also work at pep-boys :thumbdow:.... but hey, it pays the bills and its not a full time job. Oh, and I'm also good with rotarys :banana:

[TROLL]

i go to the pep boys by oxford valley mall a lot cause its the closest option, but i really despise the place with a passion. shoot me a pm if you work there and i'll keep an eye out for you. probably not though...
bryan

[criz]

Currently at an automotive school. Going for my inspection and emission/repair license in a week. Also hopefully will be ASE certified A1-A8 within this year. I don't like to admit it but I also work at pep-boys :thumbdow:.... but hey, it pays the bills and its not a full time job. Oh, and I'm also good with rotarys :banana:

hey man, any place to gain practical knowledge in a field you're interested in is awesome... good luck with that!

[WKderF]

you know who to come to for I.C.E. i usually just sell, but i am MECP gold level certified for installation.


In
Car
Entertainment

[criz]

hell yea man!

[the mike]

We would make a killing with an in house paint shop. :supz:

[criz]

an issue that i've come across in my research, as well as what Charles has found is the imense start-up capital needed. It'll take a lot to have that in-house paint shop as well as a dyno to start off the bat with, however I believe at least the latter is crucial to have from the get-go.

I believe that it won't take much to get the momentum going... once people know there is a reputable all-in-one solution, there is no stopping it.

perhaps, (and this is an idea stretch) that a test run could consist of different groups like an install group, audio group, etc and that those groups would be referred by the other groups for an appropriate install. Like, if someone I knew needed a downpipe installed, i'd refer them to Mike and that same customer may inquire about a new headunit in which we'd send them to Fred. Like I said, just an idea... it is a difficult thing to start, especially since most of us already have the majority of our time taken up with school or full-time jobs...

Myself along with 2 of my buddies that most of you have seen (Bob with the black Type-R and Chris with the white evo VIII) have been planning a shop for quite sometime... they will be done automotive programs shortly and hopefully have some framework set by spring/summer. But it is hard to say.

anyway, this is something I feel very passionate about, which is why I can ramble about this forever.

*edited by troll*

[jigga_x]

Well outside of designing web-sites, i have a sales background and management experience. I'd like to become ASE certified, but I dont have the time or money to go back to school. As of now I do random jack-of-all trades things. Mostly bolt-ons...i have a friend that wraps interiors and a little fiberglassing.

I love to hang around people that know what they're doing and watch and learn from them. It's cheaper than goin to school! :wiggle:

Me and a couple of my friends were actually looking into opening a shop, but money stopped us.

[leeden]

I want a giant dirt test track.

*puts crackpipe down*

[criz]

I want a giant dirt test track.

*puts crackpipe down*

:rock:

[mazda6guy]

I am a mechanic but I would like to learn auto body. I have dreams of opening my own mechanic/restoration shop but Maryland sucks. They have alot of crazy laws for business owners in the automotive trade. At the moment I am learning how to weld and fabricate because my job is boring at the moment. Well you can count me in if you need any help with the shop. This thread is what I have been dreaming about for a long time. Everybody put and share knowledge to help better our cars and even potential customers. We do not even have to run from rotary engines like the other shops. :thumbup: Thanks to Zeropistonz and myself. :prayer:

[criz]

awesome!

maybe we can all but heads together and figure out how to give the MY04+ WRXs big foglights! :)

[the mike]

I have a few fog ideas, but I don't know a carbon fiber/fiberglass guy to work with. :help:

[criz]

:rock:

[alachua]

I manage an $18 million/year retail store with 4 subordonate managers, and 80-100 hourly employees ranging in age from 16-55. I guess if you need someone to pull it all together, establish vendor relationships, design and set sales floors, and train a sales staff, I'm probably your guy.

Having watched a friend of a friend open a shop, grow, move, expand, expand, and fail, there is a lot to take into account when opening and running an establishment of this nature.

First, while a dyno may seem great, take into account that for the hardware alone is $80-100k. This does not take into account the cost to run it. If one were to purchase the machine solely on credit, it would need to run almost non-stop in order to make a profit during the month. Taking into account the space it consumes, and the cost of having someone essentially dedicated to running it (it has to always run to make money), it is very unlikly that owning one from the get go would be profitable.

Second, while having a big staff where everyone is very focused would allow a large group of people to live the dream, until the shop has built a solid reputation and gained a large enough market share, it will be difficult to justify the expense of having an 8-10 person staff. A staff of 3-4 people to start out is a good starting point, but those 4 people have to be willing to accept that for the first few months, their paycheck may not be as regular as it was before.

Next, beware of over diversification. It is a lot easier to gain customers when you are 'the best' or 'great' at one or a few things. If you have your hands in too many areas, you will end up being 'good' or 'ok' at a lot of stuff. The problem is, there are a lot of people 'good' at these things already, you need to differenciate yourself from your competition. Personally, I feel mobile electronics are best left to the established shops at this point in time. The amount of space it consumes both on a sales floor and in install, the amount of inventory many companies require you to buy to become a dealer, and the amount of competition in the field make it a significantly more difficult area to turn a profit in. Take the space that you would have dedicated to this, and do somehing other stores don't.

Also, consider that any brick and mortor shop will be forced to compete with internet sales. Many shops that sell on the web aren't shops at all. It is one or two guys who have the ability to have distributers drop ship product to customers. These 'shops' operate with very little overhead, thus they are able to sell at a significantly lower profit margin than a shop that is paying for a store front, and has inventory on hand. How will your shop establish their own web presense, deal with the costs associated with it, and compete with other shops on the web?

Finally, the 'performance and styling' automotive aftermarked has the highest consumer regret of any business of its size. This means less long term repeat business. The golden rule in retail is that 'it costs less to keep a customer than it does to get a new one.' This also means its more difficult to operate that dream 'no rice' shop, as most customers you aquire wil be in your store looking for stupid ricey garbage first. Only after they buy their big aluminum wing, GT-R badge, and vinyl stickers do they move to the next leval of purchase. If they got their crap somewhere else, they will be pre-disposed to returning there when they remove their head from their ass.

Can it be done? Absolutly. Is it a good long term business to start? That is a possibility, but it could just as easily happen that 'hooking up' cars becomes painfully uncool in a few years. Where would the shop be? What is the local competition like in this area? How far away from a the main comercial strip will the shop need to be to not violate any noise laws when you get a dyno? These are the tough questions that your business plan has to address.

Alright, class is out for now. ;)

-Cliff

[criz]

thanks for the input... i've done some poking around and figured out some areas that a shop would be successful at... 1 would be the philly area (approximity to NJ and to 95) and the West Chester area (close proximity to philly area, 202, 422, 476, 276, 76... and that both locations (especially west chester) have high average incomes and automotive precense.

Cliff, you made some very valid points... i've thought about some that you mentioned already, however I didn't know that 1 person is usually designated to run a dyno... I was just thinking it was something that anyone could run with the proper knowledge.

I always thought that a dyno would bring people in, and that when they saw the numbers they pushed (usually disappointed) we'd help them get the gains they wanted.

obviously some of the things i've mentioned above couldn't be implemented from the get go, however I strongly believe that an all-in-one/one-stop-shop is needed... with the exception of selling parts... you are right that it is an already filled market and tough to make money off of.

part of my inspiration: SuperAutoBacs in Japan

[jin240sx]

:eek: wow. that's a very good summary of it. i once asked the guy at the body shop i go to about this. why didn't he put more time into custom paint jobs and fabrication. because he does great work. this was about his answer. he makes more fixing dents than custom stuff.

[alachua]

It isn't that one person would be needed just to run the dyno, so much as, in order for the dyno to not cost more than it makes, it would need to run almost non-stop, thus would need someone running it during that time. Guestimate that you would be paying $1400-1600 per month for the dyno, and the person who operates it costs you approx $15/hr. Not taking into account electricity, you would need to sell 60 hours of dyno time at $40/hr each month to simply break even. Compare this to having that garage bay open, and charging $45/hr for shop labor, with a $20/hr employee performing the labor, you would only need to perform 48 hours of labor each month to make the same profit that you would running the dyno almost 110 hours.

Another thing you need to take into account when deciding on a location is what brands you want to feature. Some brands, specificly higher end names, tend to 'protect' their dealers area. This means that you would not be able to add another dealer within X miles of an existing dealer.

Realise that areas with higher average incomes also have higher taxes and rents, not to mention stricter noise laws that may affect your ability to even operate a dyno. The best place to look is usually away from residential and comercial areas all together, in favor of an industrial area, specificly one that may be partially vacant due to businesses moving out. While easy accessibility is nice, advertising and reputation will do more for you long term than being on the right corner.

-Cliff

[jigga_x]

Some great info out there...

An all-in-one custom shop would be impressive (West Coast Customs from pimp my ride). But developing a client-base would be very difficult. Auto shops make more money from Lisa, the gurl that knows nothing about cars and doesnt bother to ever change the oil or anything else for that matter and her car starts to fall apart. Look at how many Jiffy Lubes and gas station garages are around. You stay in business by doing basic maintenance things. How often will someone come in asking for a custom $2000 paint job? Even with the "ricers", how many can afford to have a $1200 Lambo Door kit installed? And how many performance lovers can afford to get that $3600 turbo kit?

All questions must be evaluated and addressed. Obviously the shop must cater to "everyday" people which means we won't always be doing fun work. We would spend a lot of time doing oil changes, replacing spark plugs, etc... We must be certified with as many insurance companies as possible so when someone gets in an accident we can do the work to restore it. We have to have at least one tow truck. A lot of people, just like us, want that feeling of installing our mods ourselves. So a lot of things things we won't even be installing, just selling so an online business is a must. How many products will we keep in actual inventory?

Will we design our own line of products? Then we would need to get in contact with a good fabricator that can make parts to exact specs, we would have to testing and research and development, etc...

Should an online shop be started first to generate customers before the actual shop is created? What about a traveling install team? That would be innovative. They buy the product, we go to them and install (basic bolt-ons only obviously). When the shop opens, it will NOT be generating enough income to support anybody so everybody will most likely have their same old full-time hustle, then donate extra time to the shop.

Lets start workin the kinks out now if this is something everybody is seriously considering...

There are a couple of closed down gas stations around me that could be used as a good starting location...it's a fairly busy area and is close enough to major areas to make it easy to locate, however it is not in high-income areas...more of a middle-income area like a majority of our customers will be. They are both located about 10-15min from Atco Raceway. We could maybe workout a deal with Atco and get discounted passes and give them away too our VIP customers, etc...

[criz]

i've thought about the traveling install team before... its nice that someone else thought of it too... that means its not that crazy of an idea :devil:

[teh DIRT]

i've thought about the traveling install team before... its nice that someone else thought of it too... that means its not that crazy of an idea :devil:

actaully...that seems like a very good idea. the overhead would be much less (gas and insurance).

[Zeropistonz]

i've thought about the traveling install team before... its nice that someone else thought of it too... that means its not that crazy of an idea :devil:


Haha, what would the name be? Inital D? Haha, j/k (only people that have seen the stage 4 episodes will get my humor)

[criz]

me and my buddies are tossin around a few names...

man when will this day end!?

[the mike]

i've thought about the traveling install team before... its nice that someone else thought of it too... that means its not that crazy of an idea :devil:


Haha, what would the name be? Inital D? Haha, j/k (only people that have seen the stage 4 episodes will get my humor)

Install D. :wiggle:

[teh DIRT]

Install D. :wiggle:

mikes got the creative juices flowing

[97TSi]

I don't mean to jack this thread or anything, but I'm currently in the middle of forming a business w/3 partners. The name of which is "Factory Removed." We're still in the early stages, but we are officially formed. We're in the process of constructing our website, setting up our business account w/Commerce and soon we'll begin contacting vendors. For the time being it will be mostly an online sales business. The goal is to move to an actual shop w/in 2-3 years somewhere in the SJ area. Like most of you guys, we were fed up w/incompetent shops and people and all the scam artists. Plus, the fact that I dont' know more than a couple reputable performance shops in the SJ region. Granted, none of us are "certified" in anything. I'm a mechanical engineer, the others are all civils who are just die-hard car freaks such as ourselves :mrgreen: We've all done pretty much all the work on all of our cars ourselves. Built a couple motors, in the process of doing the dsm thing. I and one of my partners are about to begin our DSM builds and another one of my partners is in the middle of an s14 project w/a turbo ka.

Anyway, I don't mean to advertise or anything. I apologize if this is against policy or something. I've yet to meet any of you, but there seems to be some very knowledgeable guys on here. If things go well w/this business we might be interested in bringing in one or two more people depending on their background/skills/knowledge. So hopefully, in the end, I (& my partners) will be able to do you guys right and provide somewhere you guys can be confident going to for your car needs.

Anyway, I'm taking note of all the criticism and suggestions you guys offer. Keep 'em coming and hopefully we can help you out.

BTW, in the mean-time, if anyone needs some work done, or needs a place to do some work, feel free to PM me and let me know. I do have a three-car garage (2 bays of which are full of crap ;) ) and most any tool you could ever possibly need. Until we actually get the business off the ground we're just interested in meeting people and helping out who we can.

Looking forward to meeting you guys :thumbup:
-Nick

[criz]

good luck man... that sounds great

on the flip side, it'll be nice to have allies in Jersey.

VISION: a series of shops in the tri-state area that you can count on! :)

[kef]

I'm a pessimist so take all this with a grain of salt. I also feel real ****ty today.

This is my take on a shop. First off, everyone wants a deal, granted you generally make more than 10% margin on a piece, but margin dollars is what pays the bills. Labor unless it's cash (ie: tax free) can end up breaking even.

The reason most Autobody/Paint places don't like to do custom work is two fold - 1. Insurance work is effective, regular and realitivly simple. 2. People, may not be happy with their 5000 dollar paint job, because the color red is a shade too 'arrest me'. Or their $100 replica 1NVAD0R Prelude front bumper doesn't line up correctly - but since they only paid 100 dollars for it 500 dollars to fit and paint the thing is 'too much'. Even though that's really what it might take.

Now, obviously I think everyone would love to have a shop where we could go and hang out.

As far as swaps go, turning bolts on rusted out cars sucks, it apperantly sucks so bad that RalliSpec is no longer working on anything but Rally cars and their parts selling.

Granted if you can streamline a process to the point where you can make a Turn-Key product I'm willing to imagin a good profit is possible, for instance Aerosim has their full WRX into GC swap for 6500, including parts and labor. Very cool. I would guess they MAYBE make a grand on it.

Now, someone might suggest selling say SR swapped 240's off the front lawn of the shop for say... 14000. Granted, everything to make the car go, stop and turn cost you under 4K. However total that with man-hours, some body work/rust removal, perhaps paint and that pimp greddy fmic and you're acctually making very little on it.


You know what, disregard all of that. I'm far to pissy right now to make a rational argument.

[97TSi]

Don't worry man, I wont' take offense or anything :thumbup:
I agree, wreching on rusted out cars sucks. I, as well as my partners, have been doing it for 6-7 years. Personally, I'm an honest person and when working on someone's car I try to make sure they're clear on everything and if anything is questionable I try to explain it the best I can and let them make a decision whether to proceed or what. So far, we've yet to run into anything we can't fix, knock on wood.

The plan is to sell all your standard parts and such, but also manufacture some unique products that we feel might be missing or could be done better. I have many connections w/machine shops and other places/people that can get things done as far as fabrication, CNC machining, turning, etc. I even have a lot of connections in the automation world which actually might come in handy for custom datalogging/ecus/tuning. We have a few things in the works right now.

We honestly want to provide the BEST prices/service possible. Like I said, we're all sick of incompetent people charging outrageous prices for things. We fully realize that it might take a while to break even and actually start making a profit.

[kef]

More nay-saying on my part... I'm not really trying to be negative, but it's what I do well. One other, very serious consideration to make is this: do you plan to be running this same shop in 25 years? If you tie up too much money and assets/training you could be setting yourself up for a situation very much like what my one boss is in.. Millions of dollars worth (not cost) of innovatory and no way to conceivably move it fast enough to turn a large profit.