ABS vs no ABS. Opinions?

[c7scayman]

I know ABS means you get a way better stopping distance, but I don't like it. I feel like I have less control with ABS and I hate that you can feel the ABS kicking in when you stop the car hard for a sudden red light or getting cut off.

I drove without ABS for 6 years, then in this past year, I have been driving another car with ABS.

I did not feel in control. Basically with ABS, I cannot feel or predict my stopping distance like I can without ABS.

Has anyone else went from NO ABS to ABS and thought the same thing?

[oneday]

Two things: 1. Get better tires. 2.Do some threshold braking exercises so you know where your ABS kicks in. Whenyou feel ABS kick in, back off the pedal pressure just a touch...just like you would if you felt your tires lock up (if you didn't have ABS you'd be skidding at this point, which is not controllable or effectively slowing you down).

The only time I do not want ABS is on the race track. Even then I don't remember ever getting into my ABS while tracking the one car I take on track that has ABS...I've never had my ABS kick on while driving on the street either.

Some cars have very intrusive ABS computers 996s), but, even so while your butt-stop-o-meter might _feel_ like it is taking longer to stop, most likely your ABS is stopping you faster than if you didn't have it.

[jpalamar]

ABS doesn't really help you 'stop faster' but it does allow you to keep control of your car rather then locking them up and just sliding, IMO... ABS is one of those things that has to be manditory on any car I get(exceot for a Viper but I belive there is a stand alone that can be programmed with ABS).

I hate driving cars without ABS. But like above, def learn the limits of your car. If your kicking your ABS in then chances are you would of slid into something anyway.

[Chris B.]

Unless you practice threshold braking enough to make it your normal braking instinct when you run into an emergency braking situation, ABS will stop you faster almost every time on dry roads and in the rain. For you to stop quicker without ABS, you have to practice threshold braking on a regular basis for a very long period of time. Face it, you are not Michael Schumacher, Sebastian Vettel, Ayrton Senna, Lewis Hamilton or even Randy Pobst or Mark Daddio. You probably can't threshold brake in an emergency as well as most ABS computer can slow down your car. The partial pedal braking most people do in daily driving really doesn't make a difference between ABS and non ABS.

I went from driving multiple cars with no ABS to several cars with ABS and ABS saved my @ss a few times when unexpected things happened. I did AutoX some of the non ABS cars on a regular basis for a while and tried o master threshold braking, but in daily driving situations with different pavement textures and conditions, I don't think I can brake as well as a 4 wheels ABS system that can sense wheel speed 60 times per wheel rotation and adjust the braking of each wheel accordingly.

In reality, from a 60 MPH stop doing threshold braking on smooth pavement with an even texture and letting a modern ABS system do the work the actual difference in stopping distance is probably no more than a few feet and using the ABS, you can steer the car easier when braking.

[98GSXdude]

I delete ABS (pulled the fuse) on all my cars, not a fan. I'm sure its for some people though, I just had a bad experience with it.

[The Alchemist]

I delete ABS (pulled the fuse) on all my cars, not a fan. I'm sure its for some people though, I just had a bad experience with it.

Thats not the same.

I prefer non abs over abs, like said above, not in total control. Its like traction control on a rear wheel drive car.

[russiankid]

Thats not the same.

I prefer non abs over abs, like said above, not in total control. Its like traction control on a rear wheel drive car.

If you pull the fuse the ABS does not function anymore, thus it won't operate under hard braking which makes it the same as not having ABS.


I do not like ABS, I started driving without ABS and have had 4 vehicles in the past 6 years, 2 without ABS and 2 with, I prefer no ABS. I now have a vehicle with ABS but its a tank so it may help one day.

[renn]

bunch of racecar drivers in here

[russiankid]

bunch of racecar drivers in here

lul.

I am by far the best driver in the world, nor do I have a lot of seat time. I enjoyed autocross, I did it with both ABS and non ABS vehicles and I hated when the ABS kicked in.

[jpalamar]

bunch of racecar drivers in here

Hell yes.

[Honduh]

I'm not a huge fan of abs. Its ok in the snow but thats about it. I was dating a girl years ago that got into an accident because abs kicked in and she didn't know what was going on when the pedal started going crazy. She let off the brakes and hit someone.

[Spawne32]

90% of the people who yank the ABS from their cars and try to justify it as some sort of performance modification are either A) ricers or B) absolute retards. Every single production car that a person drives on the street performs better in braking with ABS, everytime, consistently. We dont drive supercars, with 100,000 dollar braking systems, and we arent all proffesional racecar drivers driving formula 1 cars on the highway. Pulling your ABS from your honda civic hatch doesnt improve braking performance, it makes you a danger to the rest of society when you try to stop in the rain because you drive like an asshole and crash into 5 cars in front of you.

[rocknrace03]

i don't mind abs, if the car manufacturer did their homework, i used to have a car where the abs locked the pedal down and you had no control what so ever of the brakes, it actually made me slide off the road because i couldn't let off the brakes to allow weight transfer to the front wheels to turn,and it would release the pedal til you came to a complete stop. that car had the fuse pulled immediately. but there are times when I'm glad i have it. but coming from driving dirt track cars i prefer no abs, because i was slowing from 100 to less then 20 in short distance on wet dirt before i even had my permit. but i agree that abs is definitely good for your average drive/ pretty much anyone on a dd

[bordin34]

I've never owned a car with abs but this is how I prefer it
Snow/Dirt - No ABS, turns on too easily and doesn't allow you to build a berm of snow in front of your tires to stop.
Pavement - ABS

[renn]

Snow/Dirt - No ABS, turns on too easily and doesn't allow you to build a berm of snow in front of your tires to stop.

are you joking?


trolololled me if you are.

[russiankid]

are you joking?


trolololled me if you are.

It's kind of like on pavement. Tires grip so much that you end up tearing up the pavement and building said berm and you stop on a dime, kind of like my Huffy did back in 1996.

[Spawne32]

I've never owned a car with abs but this is how I prefer it
Snow/Dirt - No ABS, turns on too easily and doesn't allow you to build a berm of snow in front of your tires to stop.
Pavement - ABS

http://smiliesftw.com/x/dgaf.png (http://smiliesftw.com) it becomes more and more clear to me why there are so many accidents on the road lol

[bordin34]

It does actually help to a point. Also when driving on snow if one side of the car is on ice and one on pavement the system comes on when it shouldn't.

[jpalamar]

90% of the people who yank the ABS from their cars and try to justify it as some sort of performance modification are either A) ricers or B) absolute retards. Every single production car that a person drives on the street performs better in braking with ABS, everytime, consistently. We dont drive supercars, with 100,000 dollar braking systems, and we arent all proffesional racecar drivers driving formula 1 cars on the highway. Pulling your ABS from your honda civic hatch doesnt improve braking performance, it makes you a danger to the rest of society when you try to stop in the rain because you drive like an asshole and crash into 5 cars in front of you.

This.

i don't mind abs, if the car manufacturer did their homework, i used to have a car where the abs locked the pedal down and you had no control what so ever of the brakes, it actually made me slide off the road because i couldn't let off the brakes to allow weight transfer to the front wheels to turn,and it would release the pedal til you came to a complete stop. that car had the fuse pulled immediately. but there are times when I'm glad i have it. but coming from driving dirt track cars i prefer no abs, because i was slowing from 100 to less then 20 in short distance on wet dirt before i even had my permit. but i agree that abs is definitely good for your average drive/ pretty much anyone on a dd

If the ABS didn't kick in you probally would of locked your wheels and slid through the turn anyway. Also, how old was the car when that happened? ABS/computers have gotten much better since the early 90s.

it becomes more and more clear to me why there are so many accidents on the road lol

Yep.

It does actually help to a point. Also when driving on snow if one side of the car is on ice and one on pavement the system comes on when it shouldn't.

It comes on when the DRIVER makes an error and hits the brakes too hard. It is doing its job.

[WolfsFang]

100% sure if you're on ice it well go of no matter how hard you hit the breaks.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

[jpalamar]

100% sure if you're on ice it well go of no matter how hard you hit the breaks.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

No ****, ABS kicks in when you don't have traction.

[rocknrace03]

If the ABS didn't kick in you probally would of locked your wheels and slid through the turn anyway. Also, how old was the car when that happened? ABS/computers have gotten much better since the early 90s.




it was 1993 nissan, apparently nissans first year of abs brakes, so ill let it slide

[BigWhiteTodd]

I dont mind abs have cars with and without, my truck I just got rid of had the worst abs system ever made haha.

[bordin34]

Go to page 1009 the 3rd one down, it confirms what I said about the berm of snow in front of your tires with no abs.
http://www.accidentreconstruction.com/newsletter/jul06/dynamicsABS.pdf
" The dependence of friction coefficient upon slip is very different from that of figure 1 for deformable surfaces. It is
thought that the poor ABS performance is because wheels that are sliding cause a ‘dam’ of gravel/ wet snow to build
up in front of the wheels, thus aiding braking. ABS is designed to prevent sliding "
Also from car and driver
" On any deformable surface-gravel, snow, sand-the best way to stop a vehicle is to lock up the wheels, a tactic that will always outperform the pulsing of anti-lock brakes. Doing so, however, eliminates the ability to steer while braking, which is not so good if there's an obstacle looming ahead."
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/what-does-terrain-response-do-gravel-and-sand-page-2

[JankyS13]

faggle thread is faggle.

[jpalamar]

Go to page 1009 the 3rd one down, it confirms what I said about the berm of snow in front of your tires with no abs.
http://www.accidentreconstruction.com/newsletter/jul06/dynamicsABS.pdf
" The dependence of friction coefficient upon slip is very different from that of figure 1 for deformable surfaces. It is
thought that the poor ABS performance is because wheels that are sliding cause a ‘dam’ of gravel/ wet snow to build
up in front of the wheels, thus aiding braking. ABS is designed to prevent sliding "
Also from car and driver
" On any deformable surface-gravel, snow, sand-the best way to stop a vehicle is to lock up the wheels, a tactic that will always outperform the pulsing of anti-lock brakes. Doing so, however, eliminates the ability to steer while braking, which is not so good if there's an obstacle looming ahead."
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/what-does-terrain-response-do-gravel-and-sand-page-2


Yes, non-ABS can stop faster in gravel and snow... assuming you are the best driver in the world and never make a mistake. ABS is there to save your ass if you panic or screw up. It is NOT a bad thing.

Also, you shoudn't be driving all that fast through snow and gravel anyway so the stopping distance between non-ABS and ABS probally isn't as big a factor as having control of your ABS equiped car at all times.

Chances are if you lock your brakes, there is something in front of you. I would rather slow down slightly slower and keep control of my car.

There are more pros to ABS then cons.

[marshallpre1]

TST is ****ing hilarious. I gotta find that thread where this one kid was saying he can text and drive better than anyone else just straight driving...

You guys don't want ABS because.... RACECAR


failol

[90blacktsiawd]

I've had car with and without. For the most part it's never given me much of a problem. My only car without abs i owned for 5 years and i only managed to lock the wheels up once during hard braking due to some prick cutting in front of me and jumping on the brakes at highway speeds.

[oneday]

You guys don't want ABS because.... NEVERDRIVENARACECAR

ftfy.

Odds are that the only people in this thread that have ever taken a performance driving school, turned a lap on a race track, or done any competitive driving are the people that are posting that ABS is beneficial.

[Chris B.]

I'm not a huge fan of abs. Its ok in the snow but thats about it. I was dating a girl years ago that got into an accident because abs kicked in and she didn't know what was going on when the pedal started going crazy. She let off the brakes and hit someone.

So basically she got into an accident because she was completely clueless about using her car. So many people treat their cars as appliances, just like toasters, microwaves, or coffee makers, that it makes me wonder how cars last more than 3 years.

[Chris B.]

It does actually help to a point. Also when driving on snow if one side of the car is on ice and one on pavement the system comes on when it shouldn't.

So basically 0.1% of driving is in situations where ABS might be a disadvantage and in those situations people should drive slower anyway. This is why people don't like ABS? :lol:

[AWD GS]

ftfy.

Odds are that the only people in this thread that have ever taken a performance driving school, turned a lap on a race track, or done any competitive driving are the people that are posting that ABS is beneficial.

i never have and id rather have ABS over non-ABS. people always try to base their opinion off of one situation.

[Chris B.]

With the abilities of the average driver on the road and how distracted they are with cell phones, playing with the radio/iPod, eating, and yelling at their kids while driving, I'd love to see 4 wheels ABS, stability control, and a dynamic suspension system all tied together on every production street vehicle. Of course, I'd also like the ability to turn those systems off or reduce their intervention on cars when needed, such as at the track.

My father had a Volvo S60R and with Volvo being safety Nazis, to turn off those systems completely, you had to go through a 10 step procedure so it wasn't accidental. I wouldn't want the procedure to be that difficult, but I wouldn't want it turned off with a single button press either.

[bordin34]

I'm not saying its bad I am saying I dislike it in the snow.

[The Alchemist]

If you pull the fuse the ABS does not function anymore, thus it won't operate under hard braking which makes it the same as not having ABS.


I do not like ABS, I started driving without ABS and have had 4 vehicles in the past 6 years, 2 without ABS and 2 with, I prefer no ABS. I now have a vehicle with ABS but its a tank so it may help one day.

I understand were you are coming from. But my theory on that, is that there is more fluid and space, that is to be put under pressure with the same amount of force from the booster.

Now I run a Honda, it may be different for you, but I had a big ABS unit in the engine bay. I pulled that out, and replaced it, and took a good few feet off the total length of the brake lines, and replaced it with a 40/40 prop valve.

It cut down on total space, and amount of fluid that the brake booster uses. I got better response from the brake pedal, and better stopping time.

So the theory I have is, less space/volume=better braking.

[The Alchemist]

90% of the people who yank the ABS from their cars and try to justify it as some sort of performance modification are either A) ricers or B) absolute retards. Every single production car that a person drives on the street performs better in braking with ABS, everytime, consistently. We dont drive supercars, with 100,000 dollar braking systems, and we arent all proffesional racecar drivers driving formula 1 cars on the highway. Pulling your ABS from your honda civic hatch doesnt improve braking performance, it makes you a danger to the rest of society when you try to stop in the rain because you drive like an asshole and crash into 5 cars in front of you.

This is just a nasty and negative comment, that adds nothing of the sort to this conversation. Throwing random statistics from your head, is not actually proving anything.

I pulled mine as a mass overhaul on my car one day. By mass over haul I mean I took a 3000 pound prelude and turned it into 2300 lbs. But I like the way the brakes handle better, not to mention I later upgraded the braking system to 2 pot calipers.

Anyone who drives like an ass in the rain, snow, sleet, or any ****ty weather deserves what they get, abs or not, if you crash car because you decided to pull your ebrake up in the snow, or you decided it was a good idea to do 60 in a 25 in rush hour traffic during a rain storm, you deserve to crash your car, and probably should be riding a 10 speed bike anyway.

[dugganzx3]

ABS > no ABS. Removing ABS is like removing the front crash bar out of your car. Chances are you won't need it, but when you do, your boned. If its a track only car then maybe no ABS is better, but I hated having no ABS in my Focus, and I knew how to drive, but its way easier to panic and lock up the wheels than it is to let off slightly to disengage ABS.

[jpalamar]

This is just a nasty and negative comment, that adds nothing of the sort to this conversation. Throwing random statistics from your head, is not actually proving anything.

I pulled mine as a mass overhaul on my car one day. By mass over haul I mean I took a 3000 pound prelude and turned it into 2300 lbs. But I like the way the brakes handle better, not to mention I later upgraded the braking system to 2 pot calipers.

Anyone who drives like an ass in the rain, snow, sleet, or any ****ty weather deserves what they get, abs or not, if you crash car because you decided to pull your ebrake up in the snow, or you decided it was a good idea to do 60 in a 25 in rush hour traffic during a rain storm, you deserve to crash your car, and probably should be riding a 10 speed bike anyway.

Actually, you proved his point.

[davin]

I personally like the analog feel of a vehicle.

I have deleted my power steering, AC, heater, double throttle and never came with anything in the form of traction control. A lot of my daily drivers in the day never had ABS and braking felt more solid. I like to be able to feel the road as the car sees it and those are my intentions for removing it.

Furthermore, I am German, so we find a lot of beauty in the relationship between man and machine :-P

[c7scayman]

So basically 0.1% of driving is in situations where ABS might be a disadvantage and in those situations people should drive slower anyway. This is why people don't like ABS? :lol:

I know ABS is far superior. But as I stated in the starter post of this thread. I don't like the feel of it. How the pedal brake pedal pushes back at you. It does not feel like you are in control of the car.

When ABS kicks in, it knocks me out of focus on driving. ABS is like you are slowing down at 5 feet per sec, 2 feet per sec, 3 feet per sec, 4 feet per sec. Every split second, the rate of deceleration changes completely. I cannot predict the stopping distance very well. I don't know if I should steer out of the way because I don't know if it will stop in time or not.

With no ABS, it is more uniform. You slow down at almost the same rate of deceleration. That is what it feels like to me. That way, it helps me determine if I will make it staying straight, or if I should steer out of the way to avoid the accident.

I know ABS is much safer and better in every situation, I just don't like how it feels.

[jpalamar]

Read this. I know it is for bikes, but I would think the same concept would apply to just about anything on wheels.
http://www.msf-usa.org/imsc/proceedings/a-green-comparisonofstoppingdistance.pdf

In the ABS-enabled mode, for each load/speed/brake combination, the stopping distances were very consistent from one run to another.

In the ABS-disabled mode, the stopping distances were less consistent because the rider while modulating the brake force, had to deal with many additional variables at the same time.

Despite being compared to the best stopping distances without ABS, the average results with ABS provided an overall reduction in stopping distance of 5%. The stopping distance reduction was more significant when the motorcycle was loaded (averaging 7%).

Without ABS, the rider required numerous attempts to approach the maximum deceleration performance of the motorcycle. With the use of ABS, however, the rider was able to quickly obtain consistent maximum deceleration results, whether the vehicle was loaded or lightly loaded.

[92awdtsi]

I know ABS is far superior. But as I stated in the starter post of this thread. I don't like the feel of it. How the pedal brake pedal pushes back at you. It does not feel like you are in control of the car.

When ABS kicks in, it knocks me out of focus on driving. ABS is like you are slowing down at 5 feet per sec, 2 feet per sec, 3 feet per sec, 4 feet per sec. Every split second, the rate of deceleration changes completely. I cannot predict the stopping distance very well. I don't know if I should steer out of the way because I don't know if it will stop in time or not.

With no ABS, it is more uniform. You slow down at almost the same rate of deceleration. That is what it feels like to me. That way, it helps me determine if I will make it staying straight, or if I should steer out of the way to avoid the accident.

I know ABS is much safer and better in every situation, I just don't like how it feels.

probably one of the most intelligent pro non abs responses yet.... i agree somewhat, i just like having the option to steer out of the way if i dont feel i'll be able to stop in time.

[OMGz Turbo]

I drove with no abs in my first vehicle...well let me fix that...it had ABS than stopped working. After i learned my limits i was fine, either way.

[Chris B.]

I know ABS is far superior. But as I stated in the starter post of this thread. I don't like the feel of it. How the pedal brake pedal pushes back at you. It does not feel like you are in control of the car.

When ABS kicks in, it knocks me out of focus on driving. ABS is like you are slowing down at 5 feet per sec, 2 feet per sec, 3 feet per sec, 4 feet per sec. Every split second, the rate of deceleration changes completely. I cannot predict the stopping distance very well. I don't know if I should steer out of the way because I don't know if it will stop in time or not.


That sounds like either the brake system is defective and malfunctioning or your perception of the deceleration is distorted by the ABS cycling. Without ABS your rate of deceleration isn't consistent either. You just notice it less because you aren't getting feedback from the pedal. In reality, most passengers can't feel the difference in the rate of deceleration between an ABS and non ABS stop in the same car when slowing from the same speed in a similar distance. Without ABS you have some wheels that lock up and slide while others keep rotating and you never notice. With ABS when the same thing happens, the individual wheels that lock up start rotating and locking up again many times per second when you get pedal feedback. The rate of deceleration is similar. Thee aren't large fluctuations in the rate of deceleration with ABS compared to non ABS. Its just your perception of what is happening.


With no ABS, it is more uniform. You slow down at almost the same rate of deceleration. That is what it feels like to me. That way, it helps me determine if I will make it staying straight, or if I should steer out of the way to avoid the accident.


It may feel that way, but in most cases, it probably isn't what is really happening.


I know ABS is much safer and better in every situation, I just don't like how it feels.


There are some newer cars with ABS that don't give much brake pedal pushback when the ABS cycles.

[WolfsFang]

My eclipse never had ABS and when my Evo had working ABS i really dident mind it. The only thing i hated is when i was driving in the snow the ABS would kick in every time, was super annoying. In the end I dont really care if my car has ABS or not, on the other hand i hate how all these modern cars have so much safety features. Takes the fun out of driving :<

[piku]

This is dumb, only the best race drivers in the best scenarios (aka paying perfect attention and prepared for what is about to happen) could do better than ABS systems. The average asshole driving to and from work is not that kind of prepared (as you would be driving a race) or that kind of experienced (maybe racing several times a month on a closed track). Therefore ABS is a net positive for most any driver in most all situations.

Even if you argue that you're better, ABS can brake each wheel independently and precisely to the limits that traction allows. Your big dumb foot can't do that no matter how awesome you are.

[marshallpre1]

ftfy.

Odds are that the only people in this thread that have ever taken a performance driving school, turned a lap on a race track, or done any competitive driving are the people that are posting that ABS is beneficial.

I forgot to say this. You and ChrisB with your experience are advocating ABS, while people with no experience are better drivers and don't need it.

My eclipse never had ABS and when my Evo had working ABS i really dident mind it. The only thing i hated is when i was driving in the snow the ABS would kick in every time, was super annoying. In the end I dont really care if my car has ABS or not, on the other hand i hate how all these modern cars have so much safety features. Takes the fun out of driving :<

I'm sorry dude, but haven't you only had your license for 2 years or less? You don't have the experience...

People who hate ABS- are you guys slamming the brakes at every light, stop sign, etc? I honestly don't remember the last time my ABS kicked in for any of my cars.... this whole, purity in driving.... with a grocery getter. Let's get realistic here.

[oneday]

People who hate ABS- are you guys slamming the brakes at every light, stop sign, etc?

That is the best point in this thread!

I guarantee that if many of the "ABS kicked in ,yo!" people are not looking ahead, are tailgating, or are otherwise distracted. If you watch what you are doing and look far enough ahead you do not need to panic stop and engage ABS (or lock up your tires).

[mcperson2k]

People who hate ABS- are you guys slamming the brakes at every light, stop sign, etc? I honestly don't remember the last time my ABS kicked in for any of my cars.... this whole, purity in driving.... with a grocery getter. Let's get realistic here.

I don't even know what ABS feels like because I have never been in a situation where its used.. :lol:

[Spawne32]

This is just a nasty and negative comment, that adds nothing of the sort to this conversation. Throwing random statistics from your head, is not actually proving anything.

I pulled mine as a mass overhaul on my car one day. By mass over haul I mean I took a 3000 pound prelude and turned it into 2300 lbs. But I like the way the brakes handle better, not to mention I later upgraded the braking system to 2 pot calipers.

Anyone who drives like an ass in the rain, snow, sleet, or any ****ty weather deserves what they get, abs or not, if you crash car because you decided to pull your ebrake up in the snow, or you decided it was a good idea to do 60 in a 25 in rush hour traffic during a rain storm, you deserve to crash your car, and probably should be riding a 10 speed bike anyway.

Thanks for proving my point.

[Spawne32]

I drove with no abs in my first vehicle...well let me fix that...it had ABS than stopped working. After i learned my limits i was fine, either way.

My second vehicle had no ABS either, and it drove and stopped just fine, but there was at least 3 separate occasions both in the rain and in the snow where I almost got into an accident due to the need to suddenly stop, and the cars brakes locked up, and almost slid into the person in front of me. I was just fortunate enough to steer it into the shoulder. These same scenarios in my other two vehicles and my current vehicle would have stopped on a dime in bad weather conditions.

[WolfsFang]

I forgot to say this. You and ChrisB with your experience are advocating ABS, while people with no experience are better drivers and don't need it.



I'm sorry dude, but haven't you only had your license for 2 years or less? You don't have the experience...

People who hate ABS- are you guys slamming the brakes at every light, stop sign, etc? I honestly don't remember the last time my ABS kicked in for any of my cars.... this whole, purity in driving.... with a grocery getter. Let's get realistic here.
Where the **** did i say i dident need ABS? Maybe you should learn how to read. I said i dont care for it, ive never had my ABS come on outside of snow, i also even hardly use my brakes since i engine brake all the time. Im still on my same pair of brakes when i bought my evo a year and a half ago. Before you say **** maybe you should understand what your reading.

[Antonio]

Where the **** did i say i dident need ABS? Maybe you should learn how to read. I said i dont care for it, ive never had my ABS come on outside of snow, i also even hardly use my brakes since i engine brake all the time. Im still on my same pair of brakes when i bought my evo a year and a half ago. Before you say **** maybe you should understand what your reading.

You're not helping yourself

[WolfsFang]

You're not helping yourself

im not stupid, i use my brakes if i need to stop fast or if someone cuts me off. Im saying i dont really use my brakes if im coming to a stop light and i can see it from afar (or if im going to make a turn.) I really only do this when no one is behind me.

[Antonio]

no, I'm saying you're showing your inexperience when you proudly boast you "engine brake all the time."

[SovXietday]

I know ABS is far superior. But as I stated in the starter post of this thread. I don't like the feel of it. How the pedal brake pedal pushes back at you. It does not feel like you are in control of the car.

When ABS kicks in, it knocks me out of focus on driving. ABS is like you are slowing down at 5 feet per sec, 2 feet per sec, 3 feet per sec, 4 feet per sec. Every split second, the rate of deceleration changes completely. I cannot predict the stopping distance very well. I don't know if I should steer out of the way because I don't know if it will stop in time or not.

With no ABS, it is more uniform. You slow down at almost the same rate of deceleration. That is what it feels like to me. That way, it helps me determine if I will make it staying straight, or if I should steer out of the way to avoid the accident.

I know ABS is much safer and better in every situation, I just don't like how it feels.

You should still be able to turn the car while you're braking with ABS as the tires still have traction.

[WolfsFang]

no, I'm saying you're showing your inexperience when you proudly boast you "engine brake all the time."
its just a habit of mine, when i was learning how to drive manual i got into the habit of downshifting alot. I dont see anything bad from this.

[Antonio]

nah....nothing wrong with putting unneeded stress on the motor and drivetrain..... :confused:

I'd much rather come to a stop with my brakes while in neutral which are a cheap and easy wear item to replace instead of constantly downshifting and revving down the motor, potentially causing damage to a more important and expensive driveline/powertrain part. Sure it may not happen, but each time you do, you run the risk of making a silly mistake. The more you do it, the higher the risk.

[jpalamar]

Not to mention a chance to break the tires loose for no reason.

[WolfsFang]

Not to mention a chance to break the tires loose for no reason.
ummm...yeaaaaaaa......no, i guess you have no idea how hard it is to break sticky tires on a AWD car that has no engine mods.

[Got Insulin?]

nah....nothing wrong with putting unneeded stress on the motor and drivetrain..... :confused:

I'd much rather come to a stop with my brakes while in neutral which are a cheap and easy wear item to replace instead of constantly downshifting and revving down the motor, potentially causing damage to a more important and expensive driveline/powertrain part. Sure it may not happen, but each time you do, you run the risk of making a silly mistake. The more you do it, the higher the risk.

Except downshifting is the proper way to drive a manual transmission. If you upshift and downshift properly, the car won't have any silly issues like the ones you're indicating. At all.

In fact, I'd never, ever put the car in neutral and coast to a stop while doing so. What happens to the vacuum created by your engine's load to help to slow you down when you're in neutral? It's not present.

[Antonio]

i'm not saying downshifting or upshifting shouldn't be done. I'm saying that it shouldn't be CONSTANTLY used as a means to slow your car when your brakes are much more efficient. It's fine also if you leave it in gear and slow with your brakes and push in the clutch a couple feet before you actually come to a stop and then put it in neutral. My point was that the motor shouldn't be used to slow the car constantly.

As far as vacuum, could you reword it? I wanna make sure of what you meant.

[dugganzx3]

Most states have an anti neutral coasting law for cars, as I am lead to believe it is applied to both manual and automatic cars when driving/coasting. You are supposed to use the engine to slow your car down, look in your car's owner's manual, even for automatics the owner's manual will say it is suggested when needed to engine brake, and that when done right it is safe.

[SovXietday]

i'm not saying downshifting or upshifting shouldn't be done. I'm saying that it shouldn't be CONSTANTLY used as a means to slow your car when your brakes are much more efficient. It's fine also if you leave it in gear and slow with your brakes and push in the clutch a couple feet before you actually come to a stop and then put it in neutral. My point was that the motor shouldn't be used to slow the car constantly.

As far as vacuum, could you reword it? I wanna make sure of what you meant.

*sigh*

Engine braking has no ill effects on your engine.

- The engine is not being supplied fuel during decel situations, it is being driven solely by the weight of the car. This means the engine experiences no icombustion in the cylinders, and is more economical than coasting.
- It creates a heavy vacuum in the cylinders (plus, like I said, no combustion), aiding in pulling out debris and carbon build up in the cylinders/valves/head ports/etc.
- The vacuum created both helps to slow the car physically and adds more power to the brakes through the brake booster.
- Everything is turning regardless of whether you are in or out of gear. Which do you think hurts the engine more? Being mechanically spun by the tires, or having an explosion shove a piston down the bore? As for the drivetrain, yeah... um... mainshaft, countershaft, differential, driveshaft, axles, etc... they don't stop turning?

To top it all off, it is SAFER to be in gear at all times, period. If you're driving a manual car, you should never be out of gear (clutch depressed doesn't count). And if your theory was anywhere near correct, then every automatic transmission would return to idle upon decel. They don't by the way, they engine brake the car until the torque converter takes over.

K, continue on with this retarded conversation about ABS lol.

[c7scayman]

You should still be able to turn the car while you're braking with ABS as the tires still have traction.

Yeah I know I can turn the car. But with ABS, I don't know IF I should turn the car until it is too late because I cannot feel what my braking distance so I have no idea if the car will stop in time or if I should look for a safer area to steer into.

I live in D.C. area where most cars have dents and everyone drives rough and cuts everyone off so I brake very hard often. My ABS was activated about 3 times per week of daily driving. I usually keep my distance and brake early, but so often someone cuts me off and slams on their brakes a second later to make a turn or take an exit.

[jpalamar]

Yeah I know I can turn the car. But with ABS, I don't know IF I should turn the car until it is too late because I cannot feel what my braking distance so I have no idea if the car will stop in time or if I should look for a safer area to steer into.

I live in D.C. area where most cars have dents and everyone drives rough and cuts everyone off so I brake very hard often. My ABS was activated about 3 times per week of daily driving. I usually keep my distance and brake early, but so often someone cuts me off and slams on their brakes a second later to make a turn or take an exit.

You just need driver mod.

[AWD GS]

nah....nothing wrong with putting unneeded stress on the motor and drivetrain..... :confused:


http://t.qkme.me/356w1y.jpg

[marshallpre1]

Where the **** did i say i dident need ABS? Maybe you should learn how to read. I said i dont care for it, ive never had my ABS come on outside of snow, i also even hardly use my brakes since i engine brake all the time. Im still on my same pair of brakes when i bought my evo a year and a half ago. Before you say **** maybe you should understand what your reading.

Thank you I think I can read

My eclipse never had ABS and when my Evo had working ABS i really dident mind it. The only thing i hated is when i was driving in the snow the ABS would kick in every time, was super annoying. In the end I dont really care if my car has ABS or not, on the other hand i hate how all these modern cars have so much safety features. Takes the fun out of driving :<

Then tell me what "safety features" takes the fun out of driving? Airbags? ABS??? Reverse cameras?? What?

[AWD GS]

safety features are added because of stupid drivers

[Big_Jim]

Can I lock this yet? lol

[davin]

Engine braking has no ill effects on your engine.

I completely agree. Whenever I drive, I always downshift, no matter if it is on the track or on the road. Furthermore, anyone who watches any type of racing will notice that the driver downshifts entering a turn or coming into the pits to stop. It provides additional stopping power along with the brakes. To add on top of that, many super cars out now have cantilever spoilers that produce drag when the brakes are applied and gives the vehicle 70% more stopping power. In short, brakes are not everything.

Reference: http://www.bugatti.com/en/veyron-16.4/technology/deceleration.html

Downshifting adds no additional stress that I can think of; unless you do not change your fluids or something of the sort.

Those saying they are able to better handle a situation without ABS may feel more comfortable without it. Then again, my ABS was a 3-Channel rather than the more modern 4-Channel and had quite a bit of lag time. That way they have a more solid pedal feel, with a predictable stopping distance and more linear stopping power. This is my personal preference so that I can learn the car to the best of my ability.

Moreover, that is why I have a manual transmission over an automatic transmission; so I can be more a part of the vehicle: the same concept of me doing without ABS. With that said, I am not knocking of people that prefer ABS. It may be something they are more comfortable with and have more peace of mind with added safety.

Honestly, we can debate this all day and all night with the Pro’s and Con’s of ABS. But really, it just comes down to what people feel is best for them.

[jpalamar]

Can I lock this yet? lol

I'l cut you ese.

[marshallpre1]

I'd like to think otherwise, but was I like this as a teenager? Was I a stupid know-it-all-I'm-the-greatest-thing-since-the-GTR kid??

[oneday]

Then tell me what "safety features" takes the fun out of driving? Airbags? ABS??? Reverse cameras?? What?

You forgot DRLs and seat belts.

[renn]

i hate airbags. really takes the fun out of driving when a pillow stops you from breaking your face on the dash.


same thing with seat belts.

[renn]

but seriously, braking from 140 in my rx-7 and locking the wheels... the first thing to come to my mind isn't how raw the car feels.

[marshallpre1]

but seriously, braking from 140 in my rx-7 and locking the wheels... the first thing to come to my mind isn't how raw the car feels.

I literally LOL'd at my desk.

Locking at 140mpg is soooo pure bro!! because racecar!

[SovXietday]

i hate airbags. really takes the fun out of driving when a pillow stops you from breaking your face on the dash.

While I prefer an airbag to a steering wheel any day of the week, I would not call them "pillows" lol. They feel more like getting hit by one of those cartoon jack in the boxes with the boxing mitt on the end, lol!

Locking at 140mpg is soooo pure bro!! because racecar!

Man, wish I was lockin' at 140mpg. :-p

[WolfsFang]

Thank you I think I can read



Then tell me what "safety features" takes the fun out of driving? Airbags? ABS??? Reverse cameras?? What?

what i mean by safety features are like lane shifting, or when the car detects your falling asleep.

[SovXietday]

^ Kinda have to agree with that. I understand why they were implemented, but it's seriously getting to the point where good driving is no longer the emphasis. It is literally get in the car and it'll do the rest for you.

[oneday]

what i mean by safety features are like lane shifting, or when the car detects your falling asleep.

So preventing you from sideswiping a car next to you or making sure you don't fall asleep and drift into oncoming traffic "takes the fun out of driving?" I've never experienced either scenario, but I would definitely not consider them "fun."

[SovXietday]

So preventing you from sideswiping a car next to you or making sure you don't fall asleep and drift into oncoming traffic "takes the fun out of driving?" I've never experienced either scenario, but I would definitely not consider them "fun."

Eh, I subscribe to the idea that the more safety features you have, the more people rely on them. They are there to assist and catch your mistakes, but instead they simply bandaid poor driving habits.

Car stops by itself? Great, still not an excuse to text/eat/read and drive.

[WolfsFang]

Eh, I subscribe to the idea that the more safety features you have, the more people rely on them. They are there to assist and catch your mistakes, but instead they simply bandaid poor driving habits.

Car stops by itself? Great, still not an excuse to text/eat/read and drive.this is my exact thought. I was in my moms car when she was rear ended by a teen texting. Her excuse was "my car stops by itself so i thought i was good." With these new features people think they have to pay less attention while driving.

[oneday]

Electronic nannies don't make people bad drivers, poor instruction and lack of repercussions/consequences make people bad/irresponsible/inattentive drivers. New drivers need better teachers, harder testing, and more violation enforcement.

That anti-sideswipe warning can help you avoid the twit next to you that is drifting into your lane, as much as it can prevent you from being the twit.

[WolfsFang]

Electronic nannies don't make people bad drivers, poor instruction and lack of repercussions/consequences make people bad/irresponsible/inattentive drivers. New drivers need better teachers, harder testing, and more violation enforcement.

That anti-sideswipe warning can help you avoid the twit next to you that is drifting into your lane, as much as it can prevent you from being the twit.

Or.....Or...... I know this is hard to imagine, you could just pay attention to the people around you. Just like how people did it before all this crap.

[oneday]

I'm in no way advocating or excusing inattentiveness, but the technology does not _hurt_ anyone and does not make driving "less fun."

That said, I've been driving for 20+ in non-nannied (save ABS) cars and have never had an accident—haven't even had more than 4-wheel-off in 30+hours of wheel to wheel racing in the last three years, so I have enough experience to speak on the subject. If I had my way (as stated previously, with more required seat time and stricter testing before issuing a license), I bet that half the people posting in this thread would not have theirs).

[mcperson2k]

Or.....Or...... I know this is hard to imagine, you could just pay attention to the people around you. Just like how people did it before all this crap.

There has always been car accidents and bad drivers since cars have existed.

[WolfsFang]

There has always been car accidents and bad drivers since cars have existed.

Yes and with these new safety features they make those drivers even worse.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

[mikes7ke]

I'm in no way advocating or excusing inattentiveness, but the technology does not _hurt_ anyone and does not make driving "less fun."

That said, I've been driving for 20+ in non-nannied (save ABS) cars and have never had an accident—haven't even had more than 4-wheel-off in 30+hours of wheel to wheel racing in the last three years, so I have enough experience to speak on the subject. If I had my way (as stated previously, with more required seat time and stricter testing before issuing a license), I bet that half the people posting in this thread would not have theirs).

I think you're being a little too nice.

[bordin34]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXI0ByfEdR8&feature=related

[Chris B.]

With these new features people think they have to pay less attention while driving.

I have been driving since before many of these electronic nannies were available and there always has been a large number of bad drivers. I've seen someone reading a book while driving on the northeast extension, seen someone eating soup while driving. Seen a woman too busy yelling at her kinds int he back seat to notice she was about to rear end the car in front of her, etc... I've been seeing drivers that don't pay attention to what they are doing and driving distracted for a long time.

[WolfsFang]

Shortly after this I was driving on the right side of the highway when this suv with ny plates crosses all the way from the left lane and comes up right infront of me and break checks me. Looked up my wheels with a cloud of smoke. Lucky I dident hit him, I chased him while on the phone with the cops and got him arrested. Other drivers had called before about his wreakles driving.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

[bordin34]

Fact- with abs you would have stopped faster and with less tire wear under more control.

[WolfsFang]

Fact- with abs you would have stopped faster and with less tire wear under more control.

ass long as i dident hit him i dont care :)

[VarsityDetail]

Well for one thing you do not want abs off road, it just gets in the way. Im very glad my Wrangler didn't have abs, well I wish it had it on the street. For non off-roading trucks, I would definitely say yes, as I slid through quite a few intersections in the snow.

-Connor

[SovXietday]

Electronic nannies don't make people bad drivers, poor instruction and lack of repercussions/consequences make people bad/irresponsible/inattentive drivers. New drivers need better teachers, harder testing, and more violation enforcement.

That anti-sideswipe warning can help you avoid the twit next to you that is drifting into your lane, as much as it can prevent you from being the twit.

It's a bit of both honestly. You've got uneducated drivers combined with electronic nannies behind the wheel. They don't understand the technology, and they sure as hell don't understand that just because the car is equipped with doesn't it mean that it's going to WORK when they need it. Take the little blind spot indicator lights. Most people will get used to looking at them, and never physically checking to see if someone is behind them. So the day it stops working, is they day they plow you or me into the guardrail at 65mph.

Honestly, I believe that if better teaching and harder testing was implemented, manufacturers wouldn't feel the need to put as much of this bandaid bs into cars. I agree, when it works it's 100x better than any human could be, it's when it's relied on to work and fails that's the issue. Not so much a problem now because this is all new, but 10-15 years down the road when these cars have 80-100K on them I'm not so sure.

[AllMotor]

I personally have never owned a car with ABS for long, Either the braking system was upgraded with larger rotors, better calipers and brake booster, or I just sold the car and bought something else. Speaking for myself on this matter, I think all drivers today need to get some sort of formal training on a track, which would dramatically reduce the amount of traffic accidents that we have on the roads today. Instead of just just building more vehicles with more driver assisted options and reducing the amount of operator control / awareness.

***bit off topic here.***
I know this might also offend a fair amount of people here, but giving a kid a drivers license at 16 years of age doesn't seem like the greatest of ideas either. For there are to many kids out there that lack the responsibility or operating a vehicle and try to duplicate the same things that they see the professionals do on the tracks.

[92awdtsi]

***bit off topic here.***
I know this might also offend a fair amount of people here, but giving a kid a drivers license at 16 years of age doesn't seem like the greatest of ideas either. For there are to many kids out there that lack the responsibility or operating a vehicle and try to duplicate the same things that they see the professionals do on the tracks.

+1, I know for a fact that when I was 16, the last thing I needed was a rwd camaro haha.. I've had numerous close calls in that and have since "grown up" but I couldn't agree more.

[Khellen]

nah....nothing wrong with putting unneeded stress on the motor and drivetrain..... :confused:

I'd much rather come to a stop with my brakes while in neutral which are a cheap and easy wear item to replace instead of constantly downshifting and revving down the motor, potentially causing damage to a more important and expensive driveline/powertrain part. Sure it may not happen, but each time you do, you run the risk of making a silly mistake. The more you do it, the higher the risk.

Holy blanket statement. This might be the case if you're driving a 500 hp RWD car that you're scared of breaking the tires loose...but 99% of the world downshifts while slowing down.

Heck, my automatic 2008 honda accord downshifts while coasting down steep hills....straight from the factory.

This might be apples to oranges but these guys engine brake quite often too and they seem to get by pretty well:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5028/5557573358_05303b4e97_z.jpg

[AllMotor]

+1, I know for a fact that when I was 16, the last thing I needed was a rwd camaro haha.. I've had numerous close calls in that and have since "grown up" but I couldn't agree more.


said to say I was one of those little knuckle heads myself. Glad I grew up out of that retardation.

Holy blanket statement. This might be the case if you're driving a 500 hp RWD car that you're scared of breaking the tires loose...but 99% of the world downshifts while slowing down.

Heck, my automatic 2008 honda accord downshifts while coasting down steep hills....straight from the factory.

This might be apples to oranges but these guys engine brake quite often too and they seem to get by pretty well:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5028/5557573358_05303b4e97_z.jpg

nothing better than the sound of a jake brake, more so when the rig has after market stacks.

[Chris B.]

Heck, my automatic 2008 honda accord downshifts while coasting down steep hills....straight from the factory.


Most automatic transmissions don't downshift automatically when coasting downhill. Its a feature that was most commonly found in some trucks and SUV's and high end cars until a few years ago.

[knochgoon24]

Most automatic transmissions don't downshift automatically when coasting downhill. Its a feature that was most commonly found in some trucks and SUV's and high end cars until a few years ago.

Auto 2g DSMs will do it if you hit the brakes a certain way. With a shift kit in the car, it's not always the most pleasant feeling.


As far as the whole ABS argument goes, I'm putting the ABS back in my car. I've had 2 broken wheels speed sensors for the last couple years, so I just had the fuse pulled. I've never felt out of control with the ABS pulsing. If anything, I get the opposite feeling.

If you're so good at threshold braking, you wouldn't encounter the ABS often anyway. I can count the number of times it's come on in the dry on one hand. And it's been during emergency braking from deer jumping out on the road or someone pulling out in front of me. I'd rather be able to brake AND steer, than brake OR steer.


And to the guy who was all "OMGZ, I removed my ABS and my car stops SO much better..." I like how you left out the part about also removing 700 lbs at the same time, in that first post. NO FREAKING DUH your car would stop better. :bigeek:

That's like someone saying they lost weight from eating Burger King every day, but they failed mention they just had their fat ass lippo'd for the third time. :roll: