Alcohol Injection: Who is running it and who wants to run it?

[EVO8YOU]

I am posting this to see who out there is running alcohol injection and who is interested in running it.

[05OCsrt-4]

i want to run it, just money is tight right now

[EVO8YOU]

Yea I suggest alcohol injection with any turbo car, the benefits are huge even on a near stock car.

[05OCsrt-4]

Yea I suggest alcohol injection with any turbo car, the benefits are huge even on a near stock car.

in another year i'm dropping the stock turbo and upgrading so I want to get the bolt-ons first so when i get the turbo i can jus slap it on. PM me with some prices of your kits, install+tune+kit, thanks

[EVO8YOU]

PM sent

[eastsidesuby19]

yeah....i would like to get alch injection, what would some prices be??

[EVO8YOU]

http://www.tristatetuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11943

[wgknestrick]

Hope you guys know what you are doing and getting into.

[EVO8YOU]

Hope you guys know what you are doing and getting into.

what do you mean?

[wgknestrick]

what do you mean?


1. What are you running in it? This isn't just to decide what kind of alcohol, but how much it costs, where and when you can get it (very huge with methanol), and what mixture (if any) with water. Methanol (and any flamable substance) requires hazmat fees to be delivered, and you generally consume about 1:10 alc to gasoline by volume when using it. This means you need a constant supply of the stuff to run it, but it is methanol. Not just sold in grocery stores and denatured alc is about 5X the cost of methanol. Can the (your) system run said fuel without drying out the O-rings in the pump and all the solenoids in 3-6 months?

2. What are you using to regulate the volume of injected liquid? Are you using a very simple pressure solenoid to turn it on at set psi, are you using a fuel injector "ghosting", or a fully tunable 3-D map on your standalone EM? Have you calculated what your ceiling flow should be for your HP level and do you have the propper # of nozzles for your level?

3. Who do you plan on tuning it and how do you handle duel maps for when you run out of inj fluid? Just adding alc/inj to a stock car is pointless unless you have a method to pull a little fuel throughout your map once the inj starts. YOU WILL LOSE HP if you don't tune for this inj. The alc/water will significantly lower your EGTs and slow down the burn which will cause a loss in HP. The tuner must pull fuel and retard timing to bring the EGTs back up to their original level to realize any HP gain. Increase in boost 3-5psi should also be made to fully realize the anti-knock benefits of alc injection. There also aren't too many people on the entire east coast that "I" would trust tuning this. They just don't know the science behind it, (but I know one who does for subarus/EVOs). Not that this is rocket science, but start talking to tuners about it and you won't get much on how they "approach" tuning for it. They just give you a more aggresive tune.

4. What failsafes do you plan on running? This is huge. You are now running a very lean AFR and increased psi, but what happens (or do you even know) if/when the pump gets air in it, nozzle clogs (very freq), hose pops out of fitting, etc? Your engine detonates until it damages something and this can happen very quickly if it is stock, or weak. The only true failsafe is a flow meter with a remote monitor.

There is just a lot to consider before jumping into this head first. Seems like everybody has a 1-sided view of alc injection like it is free/cheap/easy HP, when it isn't.

It all goes back to golden rule:

Cheap, Fast, Reliable, pick 2.

Bill

[wgknestrick]

One thing to add is that the pumps are freaking loud as hell when they are on. They seriously vibrate the entire area where they are mounted. Not something that you would drive with on a frequent basis. About the only thing I can compare them to is a DC air compressor.

[EVO8YOU]

1. What are you running in it? This isn't just to decide what kind of alcohol, but how much it costs, where and when you can get it (very huge with methanol), and what mixture (if any) with water. Methanol (and any flamable substance) requires hazmat fees to be delivered, and you generally consume about 1:10 alc to gasoline by volume when using it. This means you need a constant supply of the stuff to run it, but it is methanol. Not just sold in grocery stores and denatured alc is about 5X the cost of methanol. Can the (your) system run said fuel without drying out the O-rings in the pump and all the solenoids in 3-6 months?
This is true but there are many options for people to run including BoostJuice which I sell that has a 51/49 mix of distilled water to methanol. Even for people not around speed shots and what not should be able to get methanol. For me I actually get it through a local farm for less than 3 dollars a gallon. The Snow Performance system is designed to run methanol so no need to worry about it drying out O rings.

2. What are you using to regulate the volume of injected liquid? Are you using a very simple pressure solenoid to turn it on at set psi, are you using a fuel injector "ghosting", or a fully tunable 3-D map on your standalone EM? Have you calculated what your ceiling flow should be for your HP level and do you have the propper # of nozzles for your level?
Controll of spray is all done via stage2 controller and two nozzles are given. Unless you are over 400whp the 375 works great and can be adjusted for power outputs as low as 200whp while the 625 works great for applications above 400whp.

3. Who do you plan on tuning it and how do you handle duel maps for when you run out of inj fluid? Just adding alc/inj to a stock car is pointless unless you have a method to pull a little fuel throughout your map once the inj starts. YOU WILL LOSE HP if you don't tune for this inj. The alc/water will significantly lower your EGTs and slow down the burn which will cause a loss in HP. The tuner must pull fuel and retard timing to bring the EGTs back up to their original level to realize any HP gain. Increase in boost 3-5psi should also be made to fully realize the anti-knock benefits of alc injection. There also aren't too many people on the entire east coast that "I" would trust tuning this. They just don't know the science behind it, (but I know one who does for subarus/EVOs). Not that this is rocket science, but start talking to tuners about it and you won't get much on how they "approach" tuning for it. They just give you a more aggresive tune.
Tunning is definitely hands down required to get the most out of alcohol injection and I highly recommend anyone who uses it to be tuned for it.

4. What failsafes do you plan on running? This is huge. You are now running a very lean AFR and increased psi, but what happens (or do you even know) if/when the pump gets air in it, nozzle clogs (very freq), hose pops out of fitting, etc? Your engine detonates until it damages something and this can happen very quickly if it is stock, or weak. The only true failsafe is a flow meter with a remote monitor.
Failsafes for the Snow Performance kit is based on flow and kills boost to wastegate pressure whenever an error is detected.

There is just a lot to consider before jumping into this head first. Seems like everybody has a 1-sided view of alc injection like it is free/cheap/easy HP, when it isn't.

It all goes back to golden rule:

Cheap, Fast, Reliable, pick 2.

Alcohol Injection is like any power mods though, you can say the same thing about getting a turbo upgrade. Thanks for you input I appreciate it. I just wanted to clarify some points you made.

[EVO8YOU]

One thing to add is that the pumps are freaking loud as hell when they are on. They seriously vibrate the entire area where they are mounted. Not something that you would drive with on a frequent basis. About the only thing I can compare them to is a DC air compressor.
What pump do you run, the shurflo pump that comes with the snow performance kit is rather quiet in the sense that I can't even hear it while I am at idle and I use a Greddy EVO2 catback which is one of the quietest out. Although my smc that I used to run was kind of loud.

[wgknestrick]

I had the aquamist pump, until that blew a seal. What a overpriced POS and I didn't realize that until I dissassembled it to find out what broke. I have a Shurflo now, but it is not setup yet. I am waiting until I finish installing pistons/clutch and get the engine back in.

[EVO8YOU]

Sounds good, keep us updated, I don't think you will have the pump noise anymore with the shurflo, its a little louder than a walbro.

[evospeed]

I will be running an SMC kit in about 2 weeks. I still need to find a good source for methanol though.

If anyone knows of anyplace that sells it near Reading, I would appreciate it.

[su_maverick]

Alch/Water is deffinatly an interesting option for turbo cars but can be dangerous. I would recommend that you make the switch manditory and not an option considering the last thing you want is your car tuned for alch/water and to run out and the guard to fail. Its like running a motor that needs race gas and putting in 87.

[EVO8YOU]

It is all about setting it up correctly, if done right it is perfectly safe:)

[su_maverick]

There is theoretical safety and then there is real world safety.

Theoretical is that everything works right at all times, even the owners brain.

Real world... does the rise in the price of the package with the addition of the swtich outweight the bad publicity you will recieve if the engine stops getting water/alchy and runs lean and blows. Always weigh your decisions on a 'worst case' senario. Do the benefits outweight the worst possible outcome (all system fail)

[EVO8YOU]

Yea but what you are regarding can be applied to nearly any mod you do, you can say that about after market injectors or ecu or fuel pumps...

[Gorilla Unit 33]

i dont know much about the whole meth/alkie injection but what i would like to know is if its any good for small all motor applications? lets say like a honda gsr motor (B18C). from what ive read on evom.net and other forums it works dreams on turbo cars but i dont know enough yet to say if i think its good and/or bad

[su_maverick]

Yea but what you are regarding can be applied to nearly any mod you do, you can say that about after market injectors or ecu or fuel pumps...

And thats why those companies have R&D budgets to the hilt. Hell, RC Engineering no longer builds upgraded injectors from a customers used components because of failure. They caught alot of flak because of injectors sticking or clogging up. Venom got torn to pieces because their flow rates were well below what they were advertising and destroyed a couple customers cars because of it. A stand alone ecu has about the same technology as the origional Nintendo (NES) but costs about 1-3k because it needs to be flawless. Im not saying you have to do anything, just be aware that the on/off switch can deffinatly be worthwhile in those kits because the water/alchy can run out real quick.

[su_maverick]

i dont know much about the whole meth/alkie injection but what i would like to know is if its any good for small all motor applications? lets say like a honda gsr motor (B18C). from what ive read on evom.net and other forums it works dreams on turbo cars but i dont know enough yet to say if i think its good and/or bad

High compression motors would benefit from alchy/meth injectors. Im not talking about factory high compression (10:1 etc) but built motors (14:1)

[EVO8YOU]

And thats why those companies have R&D budgets to the hilt. Hell, RC Engineering no longer builds upgraded injectors from a customers used components because of failure. They caught alot of flak because of injectors sticking or clogging up. Venom got torn to pieces because their flow rates were well below what they were advertising and destroyed a couple customers cars because of it. A stand alone ecu has about the same technology as the origional Nintendo (NES) but costs about 1-3k because it needs to be flawless. Im not saying you have to do anything, just be aware that the on/off switch can deffinatly be worthwhile in those kits because the water/alchy can run out real quick.

An on/off switch is nice and is very cheap to install but not every situation calls for it...Ultimately there is always some form of on/off but it can take may forms...

[05GT]

It is all about setting it up correctly, if done right it is perfectly safe:)


Dude, I agree with wgknestrick. And what you just said is not entirely true.

I was really close to doing the methanol injection for my 05 GT, and upon calling a few trustworthy performance shops, decided against it. I'll explain.

If you run meth, you are in essence boosting the octane of your fuel. So if you normally are tuned to run off of 93 octane, then with the meth injection installed, the car will be tuned to run at over 100 octane, I was told in the area of like 103-105 octane. Now think about it, your car is now tuned to always run on 100+ octane gas. Now sure everything is fine for awhile, but lets say down the road the injection stops working, or you forget even ONCE to check to make sure the meth is full, or if its a slow leak and it gets low before you can check, now you are back to running on 93 octane...and now your engine detonates and blows up because it was it was tuned for 100+ octane. Bad move. NOS is even safer...it either sprays or it don't.

[EVO8YOU]

Dude, I agree with wgknestrick. And what you just said is not entirely true.

I was really close to doing the methanol injection for my 05 GT, and upon calling a few trustworthy performance shops, decided against it. I'll explain.

If you run meth, you are in essence boosting the octane of your fuel. So if you normally are tuned to run off of 93 octane, then with the meth injection installed, the car will be tuned to run at over 100 octane, I was told in the area of like 103-105 octane. Now think about it, your car is now tuned to always run on 100+ octane gas. Now sure everything is fine for awhile, but lets say down the road the injection stops working, or you forget even ONCE to check to make sure the meth is full, or if its a slow leak and it gets low before you can check, now you are back to running on 93 octane...and now your engine detonates and blows up because it was it was tuned for 100+ octane. Bad move. NOS is even safer...it either sprays or it don't.

For those of us that use EM that have maps everything you just said holds no ground. I have a UTEC which has five maps, two pump, two 50/50 and on straight meth. If you don't then there are still ways around this, with the failsafe whenever a error is detected in flow, for example you run out, it turn on and cause either retardation of timing or cuts boost, both of which will allow you to drive fairly safely till you can get more alky. Your whole statement does not pertain to those who use alky because its the same as saying anyone who is tuned for race gas is stupid. There has to be a way for you to change maps unless you are dead set on running it 24/7...

[EVO8YOU]

And alky is really for turbo cars because NA you really don't get huge benefits from it like forced induction does...

[EVO8YOU]

And NOS is no way near as safe as alky, alky supress knock like no other, while NOS typically causes knock...

[su_maverick]

True but its always best to have a fail-safe when dealing with a combustable material. This becomes increasingly true when the end user is not a professional and sometimes the instal is not professionally done.
The risk of an alchy/meth/water system is that it doesnt provide the nessicary amount to the combustion cycle on time. It is basically becoming a secondary fuel system rather than an additive. The best thing is to use it as an anti-detonation system rather than tune for it. Otherwise, you will either need a ecu capable of running two seperate fuel maps or you will always have to have alchy/meth/water in the tank and going.

[su_maverick]

And NOS is no way near as safe as alky, alky supress knock like no other, while NOS typically causes knock...

he isnt saying that nos is safer, he is saying that a shot type system rather than full on type system works better... full on is dangerous because even if it fails for a second while you are driving your engine can be scrap metal

[05GT]

he isnt saying that nos is safer, he is saying that a shot type system rather than full on type system works better... full on is dangerous because even if it fails for a second while you are driving your engine can be scrap metal

Thank you...NOS sprays or it doesn't. The car runs without it fine...you never have to worry about anything, and then when you want that extra power, you spray, as opposed to the full on type system, that is always wrong, and if fails as mentioned for just one second, kiss your engine bye.
Its just my opinion, but to me, its not worth risking the car like that.

[EVO8YOU]

Have either of you run alky on your cars? Neither of you are listening to anything I am saying so I don't know what else to say since it seems to be doing no good...NOS being safer is the dumbest thing I have ever heard...Do you even understand how either works chemically in your car? Doesn't seem like you do.

[su_maverick]

Neither of us are saying that the chemical "nitrous oxide" is safer than water or methanol or alky but the way it is delivered is safer. I dont run alky in my car but I do run a water injection setup which is pretty much identical. I run a surflo pump using a boost sensor as the trigger. I also have a nossle clog warning (mcmaster nossles) and an on/off switch. I put my kit in for 3 reasons.
1.) anti-det: to have a measure of safeguard for a aftermarket fuel system and non stock boost
2.) lower intake temps: I can lower my intake charge comming out of the IC
3.) engine cleaning: the water inj acutally helps to remove carbon build up.

so, yes, I am quite familiar with the setup and its applications. I did alot of research before getting it.

[EVO8YOU]

So you are fine with water but not alky? I just not sure where you are coming from thats all, I think this is all great because it helps people make their own opinions on it and I love to get into constructive arguements.

[su_maverick]

I have no problem with any of them. Water/Alch/Meth kits are great!
What the problem is is with the delivery method. 05GT and I are saying that an "always on" system is way too dangerous. Idealy the person getting the kit should have an on/off switch and an ecu capable of running 2 fuel maps.

[EVO8YOU]

Yea I totally agree with that unless you run an aem that triggers the alky kit when you switch the map with something like aem or utec...

[su_maverick]

the problem is going to be that:
Johnny P. Buckethead is going to go to a strip and hear that some fast car is using alky injection. Lil Johnny runs home and whines and bitches till his parents cave and buy it for him for his stock Tib. Buckethead forgets to fill up his resivoir and the engine blows. The parents are pissed as **** and need to blame it on someone. While you might not be ultimately liable, still doesnt mean that you wont get bad pub and alot of crap comming your way. Remember that the world is a race between companies trying to make products idiot proof and society trying to make better idiots.

[EVO8YOU]

Yea I hear you on that, before I sell to anyone I usually end up spending a good 4 hours talking over all the aspects and such unless they already know what they are doing and for the local guys I have been offering free installs to eliminate that aspect, I will also be releasing more car specific kits that will trully be drop in but it will be some time before that is done.

[su_maverick]

Just to be on the safe side I would talk with a lawyer about the need for a possible waiver for these kits. Always know how liable you are for a product you are selling. Billy might have eaten paint chips as a kid but his lawyer didnt.

[EVO8YOU]

Yea I know what your saying and will be working on that especially for the installs.

Dan

[su_maverick]

Sounds good. Good luck with the kits, they are deffinatly a worthwhile purchase for a turbo car.

[321Gone_]

Im interested in alcohol injection if i can get a PM for price, thanks!:supz:

[EVO8YOU]

you got pm :)

[05GT]

Actually, I'm going to run a Meth injection kit for my 05 GT. Now that my engine blew, I'm just gonna do everything at once.

The kit apparently comes with a feature where it warns you if the tank is gettting empty or not working correctly.

[TROLL]

what kit are you looking at 05GT?
there are many different companies out there who offer nice products, and also many options for failsafes as well. you can even mix and match parts from different companies if you really want to.
i know that snow performance has been very popular with domestic guys in the past, before us silly import guys caught on to their little secret :)
i cant wait to get mine installed!